RE: Wearing a G-1 Flight Jacket Off Base?

[user]

This is really about the Brown Shoe Black Shoe thing. Man,
some of those comments are so funny!!! Can I use them at work? I have
a "shoe" in my command (aviation) that just made Chief, and is wearing
brown shoes, I give him a lot of S#$! almost every day!
Get this, a good sea story,,,,I made Chief a decade ago at a
primarily shoe base with an NAF. There were 2 of us aviation guys, the
other 15 were shoes. While going through Chiefs Initiation, at a daily
fun and games training session, my fellow aviation selectee and I
decided to sing the "Blackshoe Song" to all the other Chiefs, SC's and
MC's in attendance. It went like this....(sung to the tune of "Oh
Christmas Tree),,, "Oh Blackshoe Chiefs on bended knees, you kiss the
ass of Brownshoe Chiefs,,, although you think your first ashore, the
brownshoe Chiefs been there before,,,Oh Blackshoe Chief on bended
knees, you kiss the ass of Brownshoe Chiefs." It was great! As a
result , we completely alienated ourselves from the whole rest of the
base! Our squadron Chiefs were laffing there Butts off. The base
Master Chief (female) was a thin skinned shoe, and told our squadron
CMC that her Selectees would no longer attend training sessions at our
Chiefs Mess, because us squadron guys were just a bunch of " male
chauvinist, green flight jacket wearing, prima donnas" !!!

[Peter Twydell]

In article >, user
> writes
> This is really about the Brown Shoe Black Shoe thing. Man,
>some of those comments are so funny!!! Can I use them at work? I have
>a "shoe" in my command (aviation) that just made Chief, and is wearing
>brown shoes, I give him a lot of S#$! almost every day!
>
Would somebody explain to an ignorant Limey what this shoe stuff is all
about? My knowledge of Service slang is strictly UK-based, crabs and
pongoes and all that.
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

[vzlion]

Hey Guys,

I retired about 15 years ago and the closest salt water is 1000 miles
away. Are Brown Shoes in again?

Walt Morgan
ISC, USN, RET

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 07:21:26 GMT, user > wrote:

> This is really about the Brown Shoe Black Shoe thing. Man,
>some of those comments are so funny!!! Can I use them at work? I have
>a "shoe" in my command (aviation) that just made Chief, and is wearing
>brown shoes, I give him a lot of S#$! almost every day!
> Get this, a good sea story,,,,I made Chief a decade ago at a
>primarily shoe base with an NAF. There were 2 of us aviation guys, the
>other 15 were shoes. While going through Chiefs Initiation, at a daily
>fun and games training session, my fellow aviation selectee and I
>decided to sing the "Blackshoe Song" to all the other Chiefs, SC's and
>MC's in attendance. It went like this....(sung to the tune of "Oh
>Christmas Tree),,, "Oh Blackshoe Chiefs on bended knees, you kiss the
>ass of Brownshoe Chiefs,,, although you think your first ashore, the
>brownshoe Chiefs been there before,,,Oh Blackshoe Chief on bended
>knees, you kiss the ass of Brownshoe Chiefs." It was great! As a
>result , we completely alienated ourselves from the whole rest of the
>base! Our squadron Chiefs were laffing there Butts off. The base
>Master Chief (female) was a thin skinned shoe, and told our squadron
>CMC that her Selectees would no longer attend training sessions at our
>Chiefs Mess, because us squadron guys were just a bunch of " male
>chauvinist, green flight jacket wearing, prima donnas" !!!



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[R]

"Peter Twydell" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, user
> > writes
> > This is really about the Brown Shoe Black Shoe thing. Man,
> >some of those comments are so funny!!! Can I use them at work? I have
> >a "shoe" in my command (aviation) that just made Chief, and is wearing
> >brown shoes, I give him a lot of S#$! almost every day!
> >
> Would somebody explain to an ignorant Limey what this shoe stuff is all
> about? My knowledge of Service slang is strictly UK-based, crabs and
> pongoes and all that.
> --
> Peter
>
> Ying tong iddle-i po!

Once upon a time all the Navy and Marines wore brown shoes. When the navy
switched to black shoes, to better go with the white, and blue, uniforms,
aviation remained with brown shoes. One of the reasons given and the one
that makes the most sense to me was because aviators in both the Navy and
Marines wore the Marine green uniform, refered to as "Working Green". They
stayed with brown shoes because the Marines still wore brown shoes. Also
because brown shoes looked better with the kaki summer uniform.

I believe in late 1963/early 1964 the Marines changed to black shoes. But
aviation continued to wear brown shoes as by this time they had discovered
that it ****ed off the rest of the Navy.

And that is the truth!

Red Rider

[Peter Twydell]

In article >, R
> writes
>
>"Peter Twydell" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >, user
>> > writes
>> > This is really about the Brown Shoe Black Shoe thing. Man,
>> >some of those comments are so funny!!! Can I use them at work? I have
>> >a "shoe" in my command (aviation) that just made Chief, and is wearing
>> >brown shoes, I give him a lot of S#$! almost every day!
>> >
>> Would somebody explain to an ignorant Limey what this shoe stuff is all
>> about? My knowledge of Service slang is strictly UK-based, crabs and
>> pongoes and all that.
>> --
>> Peter
>>
>> Ying tong iddle-i po!
>
>Once upon a time all the Navy and Marines wore brown shoes. When the navy
>switched to black shoes, to better go with the white, and blue, uniforms,
>aviation remained with brown shoes. One of the reasons given and the one
>that makes the most sense to me was because aviators in both the Navy and
>Marines wore the Marine green uniform, refered to as "Working Green". They
>stayed with brown shoes because the Marines still wore brown shoes. Also
>because brown shoes looked better with the kaki summer uniform.
>
>I believe in late 1963/early 1964 the Marines changed to black shoes. But
>aviation continued to wear brown shoes as by this time they had discovered
>that it ****ed off the rest of the Navy.
>
>And that is the truth!
>
>Red Rider
>
>
At least you didn't start off "This is no ****", so I'll have to believe
you! Thanks for the info.
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 10/25/03 1:38 PM, in article
, "R" >
wrote:

>
> "Peter Twydell" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article >, user
>> > writes
>>> This is really about the Brown Shoe Black Shoe thing. Man,
>>> some of those comments are so funny!!! Can I use them at work? I have
>>> a "shoe" in my command (aviation) that just made Chief, and is wearing
>>> brown shoes, I give him a lot of S#$! almost every day!
>>>
>> Would somebody explain to an ignorant Limey what this shoe stuff is all
>> about? My knowledge of Service slang is strictly UK-based, crabs and
>> pongoes and all that.
>> --
>> Peter
>>
>> Ying tong iddle-i po!
>
> Once upon a time all the Navy and Marines wore brown shoes. When the navy
> switched to black shoes, to better go with the white, and blue, uniforms,
> aviation remained with brown shoes. One of the reasons given and the one
> that makes the most sense to me was because aviators in both the Navy and
> Marines wore the Marine green uniform, refered to as "Working Green". They
> stayed with brown shoes because the Marines still wore brown shoes. Also
> because brown shoes looked better with the kaki summer uniform.
>
> I believe in late 1963/early 1964 the Marines changed to black shoes. But
> aviation continued to wear brown shoes as by this time they had discovered
> that it ****ed off the rest of the Navy.
>
> And that is the truth!
>
> Red Rider
>
>

Nowadays, most of us wear brown boots with the flight suits too.

--Woody

[José Herculano]

> Nowadays, most of us wear brown boots with the flight suits too.

One thing that always amazes me... most of the flight boots I see look more
like hicking/hunting boots than anything else? In this day and age, why not
use something lighter and that allows for a finer feel and touch?
_____________
José Herculano

[R]

> One thing that always amazes me... most of the flight boots I see look
more
> like hicking/hunting boots than anything else? In this day and age, why
not
> use something lighter and that allows for a finer feel and touch?
> _____________
> José Herculano

Good point. Back in my day, we wore pretty much what we wanted as long as it
had some remote military connection. Some wore dress shoes, safety shoes,
Boondockers (ankle high boots) were popular, and of course boots. By the end
of Vietnam, where ejection was a real possibility, boots were the choice of
many, with a few even buying Cochran (sp?) Jump Boots.

I almost always wore boots and two pairs of socks, as my feet were always
getting cold.

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 10/26/03 5:17 AM, in article ,
"José Herculano" > wrote:

>> Nowadays, most of us wear brown boots with the flight suits too.
>
> One thing that always amazes me... most of the flight boots I see look more
> like hicking/hunting boots than anything else? In this day and age, why not
> use something lighter and that allows for a finer feel and touch?
> _____________
> José Herculano
>
>

José,

Standard answer is that the boot is designed more for what happens before
and after the flight (especially if there are more takeoffs than landings)
than for what it does in the airplane.

i.e. steel toes for that rare flight deck mishap and high boot backs and
rugged soles for that parachute landing and hike to the nearest Texan and
his pick-up truck.

Not much delicate feel is required on rudder pedals. Stick, yes. Pedals,
no. Although *misapply* controls (e.g. high AOA and right stick and left
rudder), and you could be off to the races.

--Woody

[Justin Broderick]

"R" > wrote in message
m...

> Once upon a time all the Navy and Marines wore brown shoes. When the navy
> switched to black shoes, to better go with the white, and blue, uniforms,
> aviation remained with brown shoes. One of the reasons given and the one
> that makes the most sense to me was because aviators in both the Navy and
> Marines wore the Marine green uniform, refered to as "Working Green".

Actually the black shoes were first. When green and khaki uniforms were
authorized for aviators in WW1, they had brown shoes to go with them. Just
before WW2 all officers and chiefs were allowed to wear the khaki working
uniform, but with their regular black shoes and brown shoes as an option.
Aviation officers, who also had the winter green uniform and tan overcoat,
were required to have brown shoes. Most non-aviation officers went with the
minimum required kit and wore their black shoes with khaki, and a whole
tradition grew up around it.

--Justin

[Bill Kambic]

"Justin Broderick" wrote in message

> > Once upon a time all the Navy and Marines wore brown shoes. When the
navy
> > switched to black shoes, to better go with the white, and blue,
uniforms,
> > aviation remained with brown shoes. One of the reasons given and the one
> > that makes the most sense to me was because aviators in both the Navy
and
> > Marines wore the Marine green uniform, refered to as "Working Green".
>
> Actually the black shoes were first.

Concur.

When green and khaki uniforms were
> authorized for aviators in WW1, they had brown shoes to go with them.

There are some very nice photos in the archives of the NAVAIR Museum showing
early aviators wearing russet riding boots that they probably obtained from
their nearest Army Cavalry officer neighbor (the Army having shifted from
black to russet about the time of the Spanish-American War). I would bet a
dollar to a donut that this is the origin of the brown shoe.

It was also in fashion in those days to wear jodpurs, paddock boots, and
half-chaps. I believe I have seen that, too.

More than one Army officer in those days swapped his horse for a flying
machine. That he might have taken some of his gear with him is pretty
logical. That other services might have copied it is also logical (why
re-invent the wheel?).

They also have some very interesting photos of flight crew both afloat and
ashore which shows a really amazing variety of gear even within the same
organization. I suspect that this, more than anything else, must have given
'Shoe captains and admirals the vapors.

Just
> before WW2 all officers and chiefs were allowed to wear the khaki working
> uniform, but with their regular black shoes and brown shoes as an option.
> Aviation officers, who also had the winter green uniform and tan overcoat,
> were required to have brown shoes. Most non-aviation officers went with
the
> minimum required kit and wore their black shoes with khaki, and a whole
> tradition grew up around it.

Can't comment on this, as I have not reviewed either the photos of the day
or the Uniform Regs of the day!<g>

Bill Kambic

If, by any act, error, or omission, I have, intentionally or
unintentionally, displayed any breedist, disciplinist, sexist, racist,
culturalist, nationalist, regionalist, localist, ageist, lookist, ableist,
sizeist, speciesist, intellectualist, socioeconomicist, ethnocentrist,
phallocentrist, heteropatriarchalist, or other violation of the rules of
political correctness, known or unknown, I am not sorry and I encourage you
to get over it.

[vincent p. norris]

> My knowledge of Service slang is strictly UK-based, crabs and
>pongoes and all that.
>--
>Peter
>
>Ying tong iddle-i po!

OK, Peter, turn about is fair play! What the hell are crabs, pongoes,
and Ying tong iddle-i po!

vince norris

[vincent p. norris]

>Once upon a time all the Navy and Marines wore brown shoes.

More precisely, at least when I was in, 1946-47 and 51-54, marines
wore cordovan shoes. So dark brown they could pass for black. Worn
with dress blues as well a greens and khakis.

When I became a Midshipman, V-5 (aviation cadet) in 1949, we were
issued black shoes to wear with khakis, whites, and blues.

>I believe in late 1963/early 1964 the Marines changed to black shoes.

Last marine I saw, a couple of years ago, was wearing cordovan shoes.

vince norris

[Rich]

"Justin Broderick" > wrote in message >...
> "R" > wrote in message
> m...
>
> > Once upon a time all the Navy and Marines wore brown shoes. When the navy
> > switched to black shoes, to better go with the white, and blue, uniforms,
> > aviation remained with brown shoes. One of the reasons given and the one
> > that makes the most sense to me was because aviators in both the Navy and
> > Marines wore the Marine green uniform, refered to as "Working Green".
>
> Actually the black shoes were first. When green and khaki uniforms were
> authorized for aviators in WW1, they had brown shoes to go with them. Just
> before WW2 all officers and chiefs were allowed to wear the khaki working
> uniform, but with their regular black shoes and brown shoes as an option.
> Aviation officers, who also had the winter green uniform and tan overcoat,
> were required to have brown shoes. Most non-aviation officers went with the
> minimum required kit and wore their black shoes with khaki, and a whole
> tradition grew up around it.
>
> --Justin

Greens, khakis, and Brown Shoes . . . more than you ever wanted to
know:

When the USN got into the aviation business (circa 1910) there was no
special uniform designated for aviators. When flying the early pilots
generally wore civilian clothes as they were more practical. In those
days the standard ‘‘workday' uniform for officers was either service
dress blues or service dress whites, both terms that have survived to
today. The service dress blues were, in design, not unlike the dress
blouse worn today at places like West Point, VMI or Citadel except
they were navy blue (not black) wool with gold sleeve stripes as
appropriate and collar brass of the rank insignia and an anchor (the
collar devices went away with the 1913 regulations). The service dress
whites were not terribly different from those worn today, a high
collar cotton duck blouse with shoulder boards as appropriate and gold
buttons. Eventually it was quickly recognized that officers involved
in aviation had a disgusting tendency to get their hands and clothes
quite filthy and that the effect on the service dress uniforms was
unacceptable to the powers above ... nor could they have the dashing
airmen running around in civilian clothes.

Unofficially, the pattern had already been set. As early as the winter
of 1912-1913 naval aviators adopted the khaki of their Marine
counterparts, wearing Marine Corps breeches and leather puttees as
permitted in the Marines' 1912 regulation change and dying their
service whites and covers of their white service caps to match. This
uniform was also worn during the Veracruz affair of 1914 and is the
beginnings of khaki use in the USN. In June 1917, this unofficial
uniform became official with the change of wrapped wool replacing the
leather puttees (which, of course, meant to wear leather puttees was,
as we would say today, a measure of cool). Officers could also wear
khaki trousers instead of breeches and were also authorized a khaki
shirt. To prevent the uniform from becoming overly soiled, a one piece
overall of khaki canvas could be worn to protect it. As with the then
Marine custom, brown shoes were worn, thus aviators became "Brown
Shoes" and everyone else were "Black Shoes."

By September 1917 it was recognized that while the khaki uniform was
satisfactory for summer, it would be rather uncomfortable in winter.
Thus "Aviation Greens" came into existence. The color was defined as
Marine Corps Forest Green. This uniform was cut in the pattern of the
service dress whites and was made of wool with dark brown buttons.
There were breast pockets and shoulder boards were required. Brown
shoes were required. A month later, a forest green overcoat was
authorized and the khaki and green uniforms were further authorized
for wear by officers assigned to aviation command who were not
aviators.

All was not roses, however. The 1922 regulations abolished special
uniforms for aviators effective 1 July 1923, leaving the aviators with
service blues (now changed to close to the style we know today) and
service whites. All was not lost, though, two years later, the
"working" aviation uniforms were reinstated. They were now single
breasted, four pocket, and roll collared; a khaki shirt with black tie
was required for both khakis and greens. The buttons were black.
Breeches with brown leather puttees were authorized as were trousers
to be worn with brown shoes. Rank was denoted by black mohair sleeve
stripes. Khaki's were authorized for submariners (who also had the
disgusting tendency to inordinately dirty their uniforms) in 1931 and
pin on rank devices were authorized for both uniforms at the same
time.

In February 1941, khakis were authorized for all officers has a
working uniform at the discretion of the commanding officer. In April
1941 a final change was made to the khaki uniform when sleeve stripes
were no longer authorized and shoulder boards were mandated; buttons
were changed from dark brown to gold. With slight variation (for
example, breeches puttees eventually went away in the mid 1930's)
these uniforms worn by the USN in World War II and are used today.

During the war Fleet Admiral EJ King designed a grey uniform that he
proposed to be all purpose, eliminating khaki and the service dress
blues (which he felt, reportedly, were too much like the Royal Navy).
Never a popular uniform and generally only worn in King's presence or
in East Coast commands where he was likely to appear, it barely
survived his tenure and was no longer authorized after 1948.

For a brief time in the 1980's aviation greens were not authorized and
the use of brown shoes with khakis was likewise done away with, but in
recent years greens have made a comeback and are authorized to be worn
with brown shoes.

Regards,

Rich

[Rich]

"Justin Broderick" > wrote in message >...
> "R" > wrote in message
> m...
>
> > Once upon a time all the Navy and Marines wore brown shoes. When the navy
> > switched to black shoes, to better go with the white, and blue, uniforms,
> > aviation remained with brown shoes. One of the reasons given and the one
> > that makes the most sense to me was because aviators in both the Navy and
> > Marines wore the Marine green uniform, refered to as "Working Green".
>
> Actually the black shoes were first. When green and khaki uniforms were
> authorized for aviators in WW1, they had brown shoes to go with them. Just
> before WW2 all officers and chiefs were allowed to wear the khaki working
> uniform, but with their regular black shoes and brown shoes as an option.
> Aviation officers, who also had the winter green uniform and tan overcoat,
> were required to have brown shoes. Most non-aviation officers went with the
> minimum required kit and wore their black shoes with khaki, and a whole
> tradition grew up around it.
>
> --Justin

Greens, khakis, and Brown Shoes . . . more than you ever wanted to
know:

When the USN got into the aviation business (circa 1910) there was no
special uniform designated for aviators. When flying the early pilots
generally wore civilian clothes as they were more practical. In those
days the standard ‘‘workday' uniform for officers was either service
dress blues or service dress whites, both terms that have survived to
today. The service dress blues were, in design, not unlike the dress
blouse worn today at places like West Point, VMI or Citadel except
they were navy blue (not black) wool with gold sleeve stripes as
appropriate and collar brass of the rank insignia and an anchor (the
collar devices went away with the 1913 regulations). The service dress
whites were not terribly different from those worn today, a high
collar cotton duck blouse with shoulder boards as appropriate and gold
buttons. Eventually it was quickly recognized that officers involved
in aviation had a disgusting tendency to get their hands and clothes
quite filthy and that the effect on the service dress uniforms was
unacceptable to the powers above ... nor could they have the dashing
airmen running around in civilian clothes.

Unofficially, the pattern had already been set. As early as the winter
of 1912-1913 naval aviators adopted the khaki of their Marine
counterparts, wearing Marine Corps breeches and leather puttees as
permitted in the Marines' 1912 regulation change and dying their
service whites and covers of their white service caps to match. This
uniform was also worn during the Veracruz affair of 1914 and is the
beginnings of khaki use in the USN. In June 1917, this unofficial
uniform became official with the change of wrapped wool replacing the
leather puttees (which, of course, meant to wear leather puttees was,
as we would say today, a measure of cool). Officers could also wear
khaki trousers instead of breeches and were also authorized a khaki
shirt. To prevent the uniform from becoming overly soiled, a one piece
overall of khaki canvas could be worn to protect it. As with the then
Marine custom, brown shoes were worn, thus aviators became "Brown
Shoes" and everyone else were "Black Shoes."

By September 1917 it was recognized that while the khaki uniform was
satisfactory for summer, it would be rather uncomfortable in winter.
Thus "Aviation Greens" came into existence. The color was defined as
Marine Corps Forest Green. This uniform was cut in the pattern of the
service dress whites and was made of wool with dark brown buttons.
There were breast pockets and shoulder boards were required. Brown
shoes were required. A month later, a forest green overcoat was
authorized and the khaki and green uniforms were further authorized
for wear by officers assigned to aviation command who were not
aviators.

All was not roses, however. The 1922 regulations abolished special
uniforms for aviators effective 1 July 1923, leaving the aviators with
service blues (now changed to close to the style we know today) and
service whites. All was not lost, though, two years later, the
"working" aviation uniforms were reinstated. They were now single
breasted, four pocket, and roll collared; a khaki shirt with black tie
was required for both khakis and greens. The buttons were black.
Breeches with brown leather puttees were authorized as were trousers
to be worn with brown shoes. Rank was denoted by black mohair sleeve
stripes. Khaki's were authorized for submariners (who also had the
disgusting tendency to inordinately dirty their uniforms) in 1931 and
pin on rank devices were authorized for both uniforms at the same
time.

In February 1941, khakis were authorized for all officers has a
working uniform at the discretion of the commanding officer. In April
1941 a final change was made to the khaki uniform when sleeve stripes
were no longer authorized and shoulder boards were mandated; buttons
were changed from dark brown to gold. With slight variation (for
example, breeches puttees eventually went away in the mid 1930's)
these uniforms worn by the USN in World War II and are used today.

During the war Fleet Admiral EJ King designed a grey uniform that he
proposed to be all purpose, eliminating khaki and the service dress
blues (which he felt, reportedly, were too much like the Royal Navy).
Never a popular uniform and generally only worn in King's presence or
in East Coast commands where he was likely to appear, it barely
survived his tenure and was no longer authorized after 1948.

For a brief time in the 1980's aviation greens were not authorized and
the use of brown shoes with khakis was likewise done away with, but in
recent years greens have made a comeback and are authorized to be worn
with brown shoes.

Regards,

Rich

[R]

"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
> >Once upon a time all the Navy and Marines wore brown shoes.
>
> More precisely, at least when I was in, 1946-47 and 51-54, marines
> wore cordovan shoes. So dark brown they could pass for black. Worn
> with dress blues as well a greens and khakis.
>
> When I became a Midshipman, V-5 (aviation cadet) in 1949, we were
> issued black shoes to wear with khakis, whites, and blues.
>
> >I believe in late 1963/early 1964 the Marines changed to black shoes.
>
> Last marine I saw, a couple of years ago, was wearing cordovan shoes.
>
> vince norris

During my time in the USMCR (57-59) enlisted wore brown, officers wore
cordovan and all wore brown boots. Sharp dressed Marines enlisted personnel
would put a light coat of black polish on their dress shoes occasionally, to
make them look better with a kind of "highlighted effect", but if you
overdid it, the Gunny would see that you were occupied after hours with
saddle soap taking it down to bare leather and starting over again.

I am pretty sure that they changed to all black in late 63. During my time
in the Navy, I spent a year (actually 16 months) with the Marines in ANLICO
and all the Marines at Camp Lejeune NC wore black shoes and boots, and dirty
boots in Vietnam (1966) . From 73-94, I didn't really look that close, but
the Marines around the Navy Annex, and Pentagon wore black shoes.

Sometime in the 90's they started wearing brown boots again. I have seen
Marines almost every day since I retired from DOD in 94, and they all wear
black shoes. Today boots can be black with the old style Woodland camo
uniform or brown with the new type computer generated camo pattern uniform.
I haven't asked, so I don't know if black bots can be worn with the new
camo, or if brown boots can be worn with old camo. And I have no idea what
color boots are appropriate to wear with the new camo, and the Gor-Tex
Woodland Extreme Weather Parka.

Red Rider

Sh*t! the next thing you know a person in the US Armed Forces will have to
have a butler to get properly dressed.

[Peter Twydell]

In article >, vincent p.
norris > writes
>> My knowledge of Service slang is strictly UK-based, crabs and
>>pongoes and all that.
>>--
>>Peter
>>
>>Ying tong iddle-i po!
>
>OK, Peter, turn about is fair play! What the hell are crabs, pongoes,
>and Ying tong iddle-i po!
>
>vince norris

The Royal Navy refers to the RAF as Crabair and RAF personnel as crabs.
The RAF, and possibly the RN, refer to the army as pongoes or brown
jobs. My Dad, a retired Territorial Army officer, was a little peeved
when I decided when at school to join the Air Training Corps, and
muttered things about "bloody Brylcreem Boys", which was a bit WW2.

"Ying tong iddle-i po" is the title of a song from The Goon Show, a BBC
radio comedy series first broadcast from 1952 to 1960. The original
participants were Spike Milligan and Harry Secombe (both ex Royal
Artillery), Peter Sellers, of whom you may have heard, and Michael
Bentine (both ex RAF). The programme was irreverent and surreal (written
by Spike) and was a revolution in British comedy. Without the Goons,
Monty Python's Flying Circus might never have come about, and their
influence can clearly be seen in it.. People of a certain age, such as
the Prince of Wales and me, grew up listening to the Goons and were
profoundly warp^h^h^h affected by them.

Needle nardle noo!
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

[John Miller]

Peter Twydell wrote:
> "Ying tong iddle-i po" is the title of a song from The Goon Show, a BBC
> radio comedy series first broadcast from 1952 to 1960. The original
> participants were Spike Milligan and Harry Secombe (both ex Royal
> Artillery), Peter Sellers, of whom you may have heard, and Michael
> Bentine (both ex RAF).

And don't forget Dudley Moore!

--
John Miller
My email address: Domain, n4vu.com; username, jsm

.... I'm IMAGINING a sensuous GIRAFFE, CAVORTING in the BACK ROOM of a KOSHER
DELI --

[nafod40]

Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal wrote:
>>
>>One thing that always amazes me... most of the flight boots I see look more
>>like hicking/hunting boots than anything else? In this day and age, why not
>>use something lighter and that allows for a finer feel and touch?
>>_____________
>>José Herculano
>
>
> José,
>
> Standard answer is that the boot is designed more for what happens before
> and after the flight (especially if there are more takeoffs than landings)
> than for what it does in the airplane.

Ah yes. There was the time we had the wrestling match in front of the
fountain at the Rosey Roads O Club, and ended up in said fountain with
bag and boots on. For the dawn launch the next day, tossed the sneakers
in the helmet bag, and put them on once ensconced in E-2 cockpit (boots
still soaking wet). Flew the hop in my go-fasters. Forgot to swap back
after landing, and drew many odd stares from the E's during post-flight
walkaround.

It was interesting, flying with sneakers. The boots really muffle a lot
of the feedback you can get from your pedals.

[Peter Twydell]

In article >, John Miller > writes
>Peter Twydell wrote:
>> "Ying tong iddle-i po" is the title of a song from The Goon Show, a BBC
>> radio comedy series first broadcast from 1952 to 1960. The original
>> participants were Spike Milligan and Harry Secombe (both ex Royal
>> Artillery), Peter Sellers, of whom you may have heard, and Michael
>> Bentine (both ex RAF).
>
>And don't forget Dudley Moore!
>
Certainly unforgettable, an extremely clever and talented man, but he
was never a Goon.
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

[Joe Osman]

R wrote:
>
> "vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >Once upon a time all the Navy and Marines wore brown shoes.
> >
> > More precisely, at least when I was in, 1946-47 and 51-54, marines
> > wore cordovan shoes. So dark brown they could pass for black. Worn
> > with dress blues as well a greens and khakis.
> >
> > When I became a Midshipman, V-5 (aviation cadet) in 1949, we were
> > issued black shoes to wear with khakis, whites, and blues.
> >
> > >I believe in late 1963/early 1964 the Marines changed to black shoes.
> >
> > Last marine I saw, a couple of years ago, was wearing cordovan shoes.
> >
> > vince norris
>
> During my time in the USMCR (57-59) enlisted wore brown, officers wore
> cordovan and all wore brown boots. Sharp dressed Marines enlisted personnel
> would put a light coat of black polish on their dress shoes occasionally, to
> make them look better with a kind of "highlighted effect", but if you
> overdid it, the Gunny would see that you were occupied after hours with
> saddle soap taking it down to bare leather and starting over again.
>
> I am pretty sure that they changed to all black in late 63. During my time
> in the Navy, I spent a year (actually 16 months) with the Marines in ANLICO
> and all the Marines at Camp Lejeune NC wore black shoes and boots, and dirty
> boots in Vietnam (1966) . From 73-94, I didn't really look that close, but
> the Marines around the Navy Annex, and Pentagon wore black shoes.
>
> Sometime in the 90's they started wearing brown boots again. I have seen
> Marines almost every day since I retired from DOD in 94, and they all wear
> black shoes. Today boots can be black with the old style Woodland camo
> uniform or brown with the new type computer generated camo pattern uniform.
> I haven't asked, so I don't know if black bots can be worn with the new
> camo, or if brown boots can be worn with old camo. And I have no idea what
> color boots are appropriate to wear with the new camo, and the Gor-Tex
> Woodland Extreme Weather Parka.
>
> Red Rider
>
> Sh*t! the next thing you know a person in the US Armed Forces will have to
> have a butler to get properly dressed.

Some of the Air Force officers I work with have told me that
the large number of unifornms required of a Naval Officer
was one of the factors that led them to join the Air Force.

Joe


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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[Mike Kanze]

Peter - Are you sorry that you asked your question? <g>

>This uniform was also worn during the Veracruz affair of 1914 and is the
beginnings of khaki use in the USN.

FADM Halsey's autobiography speaks of his ship's company boiling their
whites in coffee to supplement the Vera Cruz landing force with gobs in
uniforms appropriate to the task. (Halsey was a blackshoe destroyerman at
the time, and his ship was a part of the Vera Cruz operation.)

>During the war Fleet Admiral EJ King designed a grey uniform that he
proposed to be all purpose, eliminating khaki and the service dress blues
(which he felt, reportedly, were too much like the Royal Navy).

An additional reason posited for the grey uniform - somewhat hokey IMHO -
was that personnel would blend in with grey-painted hull and not stand out
as they would in blues, khakis or whites.

--
Mike Kanze

436 Greenbrier Road
Half Moon Bay, California 94019-2259
USA

650-726-7890

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

- Henny Youngman


"Rich" > wrote in message
om...
> "Justin Broderick" > wrote in message
>...
> > "R" > wrote in message
> > m...
> >
[rest snipped]

[John Miller]

Peter Twydell wrote:
>>
> Certainly unforgettable, an extremely clever and talented man, but he
> was never a Goon.

Somebody must have dropped a great heavy lump of coal on my head. Not a
Goon after all, even though he appeared *on* the show, didn't he? I was
under the impression that he was the Goons' pianist.

--
John Miller
My email address: domain, n4vu.com; username, jsm

Cats, no less liquid than their shadows, offer no angles to the wind.

[Justin Broderick]

(Rich) wrote in message >...

> During the war Fleet Admiral EJ King designed a grey uniform that he
> proposed to be all purpose, eliminating khaki and the service dress
> blues (which he felt, reportedly, were too much like the Royal Navy).
> Never a popular uniform and generally only worn in King's presence or
> in East Coast commands where he was likely to appear, it barely
> survived his tenure and was no longer authorized after 1948.
>

Working gray was supposed to replace working khaki, but not service
dress blue. After early '43 blues could be "dress," which was the
basic pre-war SD blues (A, B or C), or "service" which could have
stripes only halfway round the sleeves and could be worn with the
"service" combination cap (black chinstrap instead of gold and no
scambled eggs) or blue garrison cap. Service blues could also be worn
with the gray shirt and collar insignia, another of King's ideas that
didn't really catch on.

Gray short-sleeved shirts and shorts were also supposed to replace
tropical khaki, but I don't know if anyone ever actually wore it.
Grays were considered something of an abomination in the PTO.

> For a brief time in the 1980's aviation greens were not authorized and
> the use of brown shoes with khakis was likewise done away with, but in
> recent years greens have made a comeback and are authorized to be worn
> with brown shoes.

Did Lehman bring back the aviation greens?

--Justin

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 10/27/03 3:34 PM, in article
, "Justin Broderick"
> wrote:

> (Rich) wrote in message
> >...
>
>> During the war Fleet Admiral EJ King designed a grey uniform that he
>> proposed to be all purpose, eliminating khaki and the service dress
>> blues (which he felt, reportedly, were too much like the Royal Navy).
>> Never a popular uniform and generally only worn in King's presence or
>> in East Coast commands where he was likely to appear, it barely
>> survived his tenure and was no longer authorized after 1948.
>>
>
> Working gray was supposed to replace working khaki, but not service
> dress blue. After early '43 blues could be "dress," which was the
> basic pre-war SD blues (A, B or C), or "service" which could have
> stripes only halfway round the sleeves and could be worn with the
> "service" combination cap (black chinstrap instead of gold and no
> scambled eggs) or blue garrison cap. Service blues could also be worn
> with the gray shirt and collar insignia, another of King's ideas that
> didn't really catch on.
>
> Gray short-sleeved shirts and shorts were also supposed to replace
> tropical khaki, but I don't know if anyone ever actually wore it.
> Grays were considered something of an abomination in the PTO.
>
>> For a brief time in the 1980's aviation greens were not authorized and
>> the use of brown shoes with khakis was likewise done away with, but in
>> recent years greens have made a comeback and are authorized to be worn
>> with brown shoes.
>
> Did Lehman bring back the aviation greens?
>
> --Justin

They never went away. It's just that most folks choose not to buy them, and
since their a working uniform, no aviation skipper I know of has ever
required their wear.

--Woody

[Jake Donovan]

I haven't seen anyone wearing Aviation Greens since the mid 80's. They are
still in the Uniform Regs though. (As someone stated earlier, we have
enough uniforms to drag around with us.)

JD

"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
...
> On 10/27/03 3:34 PM, in article
> , "Justin Broderick"
> > wrote:
>
> > (Rich) wrote in message
> > >...
> >
> >> During the war Fleet Admiral EJ King designed a grey uniform that he
> >> proposed to be all purpose, eliminating khaki and the service dress
> >> blues (which he felt, reportedly, were too much like the Royal Navy).
> >> Never a popular uniform and generally only worn in King's presence or
> >> in East Coast commands where he was likely to appear, it barely
> >> survived his tenure and was no longer authorized after 1948.
> >>
> >
> > Working gray was supposed to replace working khaki, but not service
> > dress blue. After early '43 blues could be "dress," which was the
> > basic pre-war SD blues (A, B or C), or "service" which could have
> > stripes only halfway round the sleeves and could be worn with the
> > "service" combination cap (black chinstrap instead of gold and no
> > scambled eggs) or blue garrison cap. Service blues could also be worn
> > with the gray shirt and collar insignia, another of King's ideas that
> > didn't really catch on.
> >
> > Gray short-sleeved shirts and shorts were also supposed to replace
> > tropical khaki, but I don't know if anyone ever actually wore it.
> > Grays were considered something of an abomination in the PTO.
> >
> >> For a brief time in the 1980's aviation greens were not authorized and
> >> the use of brown shoes with khakis was likewise done away with, but in
> >> recent years greens have made a comeback and are authorized to be worn
> >> with brown shoes.
> >
> > Did Lehman bring back the aviation greens?
> >
> > --Justin
>
> They never went away. It's just that most folks choose not to buy them,
and
> since their a working uniform, no aviation skipper I know of has ever
> required their wear.
>
> --Woody
>

[vincent p. norris]

>During my time in the USMCR (57-59) enlisted wore brown,

Could you give me a little more info? "Brown" covers a lot of
territory. Was it a very dark brown, that could be mistaken for
black, or a lighter brown?

>officers wore cordovan and all wore brown boots.

By "boots" I assume you mean something that sort of resembled the
paratrooper boots of WW II?

We had nothing like that when I was in. We had ankle-high "field
shoes," which we called "boondockers," that were made of inside-out
(suede) leather that was very light brown when new. I can't recall
ever hearing them called "boots."

They were nice in a cold drafty airplane in winter; we could tuck the
legs of the flight suit into them.

vince norris








Sharp dressed Marines enlisted personnel
>would put a light coat of black polish on their dress shoes occasionally, to
>make them look better with a kind of "highlighted effect", but if you
>overdid it, the Gunny would see that you were occupied after hours with
>saddle soap taking it down to bare leather and starting over again.
>
>I am pretty sure that they changed to all black in late 63. During my time
>in the Navy, I spent a year (actually 16 months) with the Marines in ANLICO
>and all the Marines at Camp Lejeune NC wore black shoes and boots, and dirty
>boots in Vietnam (1966) . From 73-94, I didn't really look that close, but
>the Marines around the Navy Annex, and Pentagon wore black shoes.
>
>Sometime in the 90's they started wearing brown boots again. I have seen
>Marines almost every day since I retired from DOD in 94, and they all wear
>black shoes. Today boots can be black with the old style Woodland camo
>uniform or brown with the new type computer generated camo pattern uniform.
>I haven't asked, so I don't know if black bots can be worn with the new
>camo, or if brown boots can be worn with old camo. And I have no idea what
>color boots are appropriate to wear with the new camo, and the Gor-Tex
>Woodland Extreme Weather Parka.
>
>Red Rider
>
>Sh*t! the next thing you know a person in the US Armed Forces will have to
>have a butler to get properly dressed.
>
>

[Larry]

> I haven't seen anyone wearing Aviation Greens since the mid 80's.
They were pretty expensive- You could blow about $650 on the whole set real
fast. I located my jacket and pants in a thrift shop, so all I had to get
was a few long sleeve shirts at the uniform shop.

I made it a point to wear mine for the 50th anniversary of the bombing of
Pearl Harbor when I was stationed at Barbers Point, Hawaii. I was amazed how
many folks had never seen it before. I always thought it was a really cool
looking uniform and I enjoyed the "nostalgia".

Yes, the wool was kinda warm during the day- oh well :-)

Larry
AECS (AW/SW/MTS)
Disabled Combat Veteran
USN Retired

20 years of Navy in my rear view mirror
and getting further away every day ;-)






"Jake Donovan" > wrote in message
news:dahnb.1208$Re.840@lakeread06...
> I haven't seen anyone wearing Aviation Greens since the mid 80's. They
are
> still in the Uniform Regs though. (As someone stated earlier, we have
> enough uniforms to drag around with us.)
>
> JD
>
> "Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On 10/27/03 3:34 PM, in article
> > , "Justin Broderick"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > (Rich) wrote in message
> > > >...
> > >
> > >> During the war Fleet Admiral EJ King designed a grey uniform that he
> > >> proposed to be all purpose, eliminating khaki and the service dress
> > >> blues (which he felt, reportedly, were too much like the Royal Navy).
> > >> Never a popular uniform and generally only worn in King's presence or
> > >> in East Coast commands where he was likely to appear, it barely
> > >> survived his tenure and was no longer authorized after 1948.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Working gray was supposed to replace working khaki, but not service
> > > dress blue. After early '43 blues could be "dress," which was the
> > > basic pre-war SD blues (A, B or C), or "service" which could have
> > > stripes only halfway round the sleeves and could be worn with the
> > > "service" combination cap (black chinstrap instead of gold and no
> > > scambled eggs) or blue garrison cap. Service blues could also be worn
> > > with the gray shirt and collar insignia, another of King's ideas that
> > > didn't really catch on.
> > >
> > > Gray short-sleeved shirts and shorts were also supposed to replace
> > > tropical khaki, but I don't know if anyone ever actually wore it.
> > > Grays were considered something of an abomination in the PTO.
> > >
> > >> For a brief time in the 1980's aviation greens were not authorized
and
> > >> the use of brown shoes with khakis was likewise done away with, but
in
> > >> recent years greens have made a comeback and are authorized to be
worn
> > >> with brown shoes.
> > >
> > > Did Lehman bring back the aviation greens?
> > >
> > > --Justin
> >
> > They never went away. It's just that most folks choose not to buy them,
> and
> > since their a working uniform, no aviation skipper I know of has ever
> > required their wear.
> >
> > --Woody
> >
>
>

[Peter Twydell]

In article >, John Miller > writes
>Peter Twydell wrote:
>>>
>> Certainly unforgettable, an extremely clever and talented man, but he
>> was never a Goon.
>
>Somebody must have dropped a great heavy lump of coal on my head. Not a
>Goon after all, even though he appeared *on* the show, didn't he? I was
>under the impression that he was the Goons' pianist.
>
Are you sure it wasn't a batter pudding that hit you?

Dud was born in 1935, which makes him a bit young. AFAIK he never
appeared in a Goon Show. The musicians were a BBC outfit led by Wally
Stott, the Ray Ellington Quartet, and Max Geldray.
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

[vincent p. norris]

>We had nothing like that when I was in. We had ankle-high "field
>shoes," which we called "boondockers," that were made of inside-out
>(suede) leather that was very light brown when new. I can't recall
>ever hearing them called "boots."
>
>They were nice in a cold drafty airplane in winter; we could tuck the
>legs of the flight suit into them.
>
>vince norris

That doesn't make sense, because somehow, the first sentence of the
second paragraph got lost in the shuffle. It should read:

Some of us (pilots) wore half-Wellingtons, which we did call "boots."
They were nice in a cold drafty airplane in winter; we could tuck the
legs of the flight suit into them.

vince norris

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 10/29/03 1:37 AM, in article ,
"dano" > wrote:

> Obviously, you haven't been around NAS Brunswick;)
>
> There are quite a few folks up here who wear them; I would be among them if
> I had the extra cash...
>
> Dano, AWC
>

My last trip to Brunswick was January 1995 for a week. DANGED cold! I was
flying some test hops in the Intruder in my poopie suit--two 2 hour flights
per night from 2200 - 0000 and from 0130 - 0330 mostly at low altitude. The
locals must have loved us.

I didn't see enough P-3 types on those working hours to get a good enough
sampling of uniform habits.

You guys should get medals for surviving those winters.

--Woody

[dano]

Obviously, you haven't been around NAS Brunswick;)

There are quite a few folks up here who wear them; I would be among them if
I had the extra cash...

Dano, AWC


"Jake Donovan" > wrote in message
news:dahnb.1208$Re.840@lakeread06...
> I haven't seen anyone wearing Aviation Greens since the mid 80's. They
are
> still in the Uniform Regs though. (As someone stated earlier, we have
> enough uniforms to drag around with us.)
>
> JD
>
> "Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On 10/27/03 3:34 PM, in article
> > , "Justin Broderick"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > (Rich) wrote in message
> > > >...
> > >
> > >> During the war Fleet Admiral EJ King designed a grey uniform that he
> > >> proposed to be all purpose, eliminating khaki and the service dress
> > >> blues (which he felt, reportedly, were too much like the Royal Navy).
> > >> Never a popular uniform and generally only worn in King's presence or
> > >> in East Coast commands where he was likely to appear, it barely
> > >> survived his tenure and was no longer authorized after 1948.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Working gray was supposed to replace working khaki, but not service
> > > dress blue. After early '43 blues could be "dress," which was the
> > > basic pre-war SD blues (A, B or C), or "service" which could have
> > > stripes only halfway round the sleeves and could be worn with the
> > > "service" combination cap (black chinstrap instead of gold and no
> > > scambled eggs) or blue garrison cap. Service blues could also be worn
> > > with the gray shirt and collar insignia, another of King's ideas that
> > > didn't really catch on.
> > >
> > > Gray short-sleeved shirts and shorts were also supposed to replace
> > > tropical khaki, but I don't know if anyone ever actually wore it.
> > > Grays were considered something of an abomination in the PTO.
> > >
> > >> For a brief time in the 1980's aviation greens were not authorized
and
> > >> the use of brown shoes with khakis was likewise done away with, but
in
> > >> recent years greens have made a comeback and are authorized to be
worn
> > >> with brown shoes.
> > >
> > > Did Lehman bring back the aviation greens?
> > >
> > > --Justin
> >
> > They never went away. It's just that most folks choose not to buy them,
> and
> > since their a working uniform, no aviation skipper I know of has ever
> > required their wear.
> >
> > --Woody
> >
>
>

[nafod40]

Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal wrote:
> My last trip to Brunswick was January 1995 for a week. DANGED cold!
>
><snip>
>
> You guys should get medals for surviving those winters.

I remember the time I was relaxing in Norfolk in 65 degree heat, and got
the call to shoot up to Brunswick so we could Link 11 with a ship at
Bath Iron Works. Milk run. Full stop included, so we could get some
lobsters for HomeLant. Check the weather...20 degrees and blowing snow.
Ouch!

Good thing I was the plane commander, so the nugget could preflight for
the way back.

[Robert Moore]

"Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" > wrote
> My last trip to Brunswick was January 1995 for a week. DANGED
> cold!

Jeeze...I spent three years ('59-'62) there in VP-21 (P-2V).
Aviation Greens would have been comfortable even in June!
My last winter there ('61-'62), we had 21 straight days when
the temperature never rose to zero at any time. It would drop
to minus 25-30 at night. For enduring the Brunswick climate,
we were rewarded with deployments to Iceland and Newfoundland,
both warmer than NHZ.

Bob Moore
VP-21, FAETULANT, VP-46
PanAm (retired)

[Pechs1]

Joe-<< Some of the Air Force officers I work with have told me that
the large number of unifornms required of a Naval Officer
was one of the factors that led them to join the Air Force. >><BR><BR>

Even the ones that had been in the USAF...hard to believe that somebody would
want to put up with the USAF cuz of uniforms...
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[George Shirley]

vincent p. norris wrote:

>>We had nothing like that when I was in. We had ankle-high "field
>>shoes," which we called "boondockers," that were made of inside-out
>>(suede) leather that was very light brown when new. I can't recall
>>ever hearing them called "boots."
>>
>>They were nice in a cold drafty airplane in winter; we could tuck the
>>legs of the flight suit into them.
>>
>>vince norris
>
>
> That doesn't make sense, because somehow, the first sentence of the
> second paragraph got lost in the shuffle. It should read:
>
> Some of us (pilots) wore half-Wellingtons, which we did call "boots."
> They were nice in a cold drafty airplane in winter; we could tuck the
> legs of the flight suit into them.
>
> vince norris

Vince: I flew crew on transports in 1958-1959 for the Navy and we all
wore "half-Wellingtons". They were bought at the Navy Exchange, were
made by Frye, and were called "Jet Boots." Not an official uniform item
but a whole lot better in unpressurized prop transports than the
official low quarter shoes. Shore Patrol just loved to catch us going
ashore at the bases we landed at with those boots on and would usually
write us up. Once the write up got back to the squadron the skipper
would send them an acknowledgement and then tear the citation up. Sort
of unofficial approval to wear the boots. But, hey, we weren't allowed
to wear jeans ashore back then either. You had to wear "trousers with a
crease on the front of the leg" or the Marines at the gate wouldn't let
you out.

Never saw an officer or enlisted going off base in a flight suit, just
wasn't allowed. You had to wear the uniform of the day to get out. This
was at Pax River, MD. Flight suits, flight jackets and boots went in
your flight locker at the hangar.

George

[Tex Houston]

"George Shirley" > wrote in message
.. .
> Vince: I flew crew on transports in 1958-1959 for the Navy and we all
> wore "half-Wellingtons". They were bought at the Navy Exchange, were
> made by Frye, and were called "Jet Boots."
<snipped>
> George

George,

I continued to wear 'Jet Boots' after I retired and needing replacements I
went to the local Frye dealer and ordered them and the order went
unfulfilled because the pattern had been discontinued. My dealer gave me
the number of the factory remainders store and I bought the last two pairs
of the black ones in my size. After years of resoleing they finally wore
out. I found the Justin 'Ropers' model an adequate substitute although the
tops are much higher.

I still think they went well with the uniform.

Tex Houston

[Jake Donovan]

Dano,

You care correct. Jet guy. Made one stop at NAS Buunswick in 85 in a test
14B. Summer but still cool.

JD

"dano" > wrote in message
...
> Obviously, you haven't been around NAS Brunswick;)
>
> There are quite a few folks up here who wear them; I would be among them
if
> I had the extra cash...
>
> Dano, AWC
>
>
> "Jake Donovan" > wrote in message
> news:dahnb.1208$Re.840@lakeread06...
> > I haven't seen anyone wearing Aviation Greens since the mid 80's. They
> are
> > still in the Uniform Regs though. (As someone stated earlier, we have
> > enough uniforms to drag around with us.)
> >
> > JD
> >
> > "Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > On 10/27/03 3:34 PM, in article
> > > , "Justin Broderick"
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > (Rich) wrote in message
> > > > >...
> > > >
> > > >> During the war Fleet Admiral EJ King designed a grey uniform that
he
> > > >> proposed to be all purpose, eliminating khaki and the service dress
> > > >> blues (which he felt, reportedly, were too much like the Royal
Navy).
> > > >> Never a popular uniform and generally only worn in King's presence
or
> > > >> in East Coast commands where he was likely to appear, it barely
> > > >> survived his tenure and was no longer authorized after 1948.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > Working gray was supposed to replace working khaki, but not service
> > > > dress blue. After early '43 blues could be "dress," which was the
> > > > basic pre-war SD blues (A, B or C), or "service" which could have
> > > > stripes only halfway round the sleeves and could be worn with the
> > > > "service" combination cap (black chinstrap instead of gold and no
> > > > scambled eggs) or blue garrison cap. Service blues could also be
worn
> > > > with the gray shirt and collar insignia, another of King's ideas
that
> > > > didn't really catch on.
> > > >
> > > > Gray short-sleeved shirts and shorts were also supposed to replace
> > > > tropical khaki, but I don't know if anyone ever actually wore it.
> > > > Grays were considered something of an abomination in the PTO.
> > > >
> > > >> For a brief time in the 1980's aviation greens were not authorized
> and
> > > >> the use of brown shoes with khakis was likewise done away with, but
> in
> > > >> recent years greens have made a comeback and are authorized to be
> worn
> > > >> with brown shoes.
> > > >
> > > > Did Lehman bring back the aviation greens?
> > > >
> > > > --Justin
> > >
> > > They never went away. It's just that most folks choose not to buy
them,
> > and
> > > since their a working uniform, no aviation skipper I know of has ever
> > > required their wear.
> > >
> > > --Woody
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Leanne]

> You care correct. Jet guy. Made one stop at NAS Buunswick in 85 in a test
> 14B. Summer but still cool.

It has long been known by the residents of Maine that they have two seasons,
wintah and the 4th of July.

Leanne - Who still loves to visit friends and family there.

[George Shirley]

Tex Houston wrote:

> "George Shirley" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>Vince: I flew crew on transports in 1958-1959 for the Navy and we all
>>wore "half-Wellingtons". They were bought at the Navy Exchange, were
>>made by Frye, and were called "Jet Boots."
>
> <snipped>
>
>>George
>
>
> George,
>
> I continued to wear 'Jet Boots' after I retired and needing replacements I
> went to the local Frye dealer and ordered them and the order went
> unfulfilled because the pattern had been discontinued. My dealer gave me
> the number of the factory remainders store and I bought the last two pairs
> of the black ones in my size. After years of resoleing they finally wore
> out. I found the Justin 'Ropers' model an adequate substitute although the
> tops are much higher.
>
> I still think they went well with the uniform.
>
> Tex Houston
>
>

I did too, but the Armed Forces Police in DC sure didn't. And, when I
went to sea in late '59 I had to send them home. Wore mine until they
wore out and then went to just plain shoes. Had a duplicate pair made in
Thailand in 1981 that I still wear occasionally. Don't wear them that
much since they look funny with shorts and a tee shirt. The shoemaker
knew what I wanted when I said "Jet Boots". Evidentally he made a lot of
them during SEA for the zoomies on I&I.

Oh yeah, I no longer own a suit or a tie and only one pair of "dress"
shoes to wear with slacks and a sports shirt. <BSEG>

George

George

[vincent p. norris]

>Vince: I flew crew on transports in 1958-1959 for the Navy and we all
>wore "half-Wellingtons". They were bought at the Navy Exchange, were
>made by Frye, and were called "Jet Boots."

For some reason, I can still remember mine were made by Jarman. Odd
show memory works; I can never remember important things.

>Never saw an officer or enlisted going off base in a flight suit, just
>wasn't allowed.

At Cherry Point, early 1950s, we weren't even allowed to wear any
flight gear except from the ready room to the airplane and back.

> You had to wear the uniform of the day to get out. This
>was at Pax River, MD. Flight suits, flight jackets and boots went in
>your flight locker at the hangar.

You remind me of the time I flew an R5C to Pax to pick up the ground
crews of an F4U squadron after the fighters departed for Cherry Point.

As I was taxiing out, a wall of fog moved across the field. I'd
never seen anything like it. Or since.

The tower said "The field is closed. The field is closed."

I couldn't even see well enough to taxi back to the ramp. They had
to send out a jeep to lead me in.

I had nothing on but a summer flyng suit, dirty and smelly. But
somehow the rest of the crew and I managed to get out the gate to a
bar right there. (Was it still there when you were at Pax?)

When I got back to Cherry Point, next day, the skipper of the fighter
squadron chewed my ass out, saying I just wanted to spend the night in
D.C.

vince norris

[Mike Kanze]

>we had 21 straight days when the temperature never rose to zero at any
time.

Sounds like NAS Glenview - without the lobsters. <g>

--
Mike Kanze

436 Greenbrier Road
Half Moon Bay, California 94019-2259
USA

650-726-7890

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

- Henny Youngman


"Robert Moore" > wrote in message
. 7...
> "Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" > wrote
> > My last trip to Brunswick was January 1995 for a week. DANGED
> > cold!
>
> Jeeze...I spent three years ('59-'62) there in VP-21 (P-2V).
> Aviation Greens would have been comfortable even in June!
> My last winter there ('61-'62), we had 21 straight days when
> the temperature never rose to zero at any time. It would drop
> to minus 25-30 at night. For enduring the Brunswick climate,
> we were rewarded with deployments to Iceland and Newfoundland,
> both warmer than NHZ.
>
> Bob Moore
> VP-21, FAETULANT, VP-46
> PanAm (retired)

[Pechs1]

Larry-<< They were pretty expensive- >><BR><BR>

Loved mine but were not a 'liberty' uniform, working uniform only so some that
memorized the uniform regs would whine when ya wore them off base...

I wore my greens often w/o blouse, with leather flight jacket until I retired
in 1992....
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[George Shirley]

vincent p. norris wrote:

>>Vince: I flew crew on transports in 1958-1959 for the Navy and we all
>>wore "half-Wellingtons". They were bought at the Navy Exchange, were
>>made by Frye, and were called "Jet Boots."
>
>
> For some reason, I can still remember mine were made by Jarman. Odd
> show memory works; I can never remember important things.
>
>
>>Never saw an officer or enlisted going off base in a flight suit, just
>>wasn't allowed.
>
>
> At Cherry Point, early 1950s, we weren't even allowed to wear any
> flight gear except from the ready room to the airplane and back.
>
>
>>You had to wear the uniform of the day to get out. This
>>was at Pax River, MD. Flight suits, flight jackets and boots went in
>>your flight locker at the hangar.
>
>
> You remind me of the time I flew an R5C to Pax to pick up the ground
> crews of an F4U squadron after the fighters departed for Cherry Point.
>
> As I was taxiing out, a wall of fog moved across the field. I'd
> never seen anything like it. Or since.
>
> The tower said "The field is closed. The field is closed."
>
> I couldn't even see well enough to taxi back to the ramp. They had
> to send out a jeep to lead me in.
>
> I had nothing on but a summer flyng suit, dirty and smelly. But
> somehow the rest of the crew and I managed to get out the gate to a
> bar right there. (Was it still there when you were at Pax?)
>
> When I got back to Cherry Point, next day, the skipper of the fighter
> squadron chewed my ass out, saying I just wanted to spend the night in
> D.C.
>
> vince norris

The main drag in Lexington Park, the town outside the base, was bars and
gambling arcades when I was there. Lots of slots, pinball machines, etc.
Lots of strippers, bands (mostly made up of off duty sailors), whores,
and an ocean of booze. Unfortunately I was a kiddie cruiser and didn't
reach legal drinking age until the day after I was separated from active
duty.

Early fall was fog time IIRC. Your skipper didn't know his geography
very well, DC is fifty miles away and the Greyhound bus only ran twice a
day when I was there, morning and afternoon.

Was good duty though, that's where I met my wife in 1958 and we've been
married since 1960. Two kids, five grandkids, and 1.5 greatgrandkids
later she's still a beauty and a good woman. Her Dad retired from Civil
Service on the base as did the youngest boy and a brother-in-law of hers
still works there at Flight Test, or that's what it was called last time
I was up there in 1991.

Alan Shepard was a member of MIL's church and I met him there. Met John
Glenn one day over at NATC, just long enough to salute him and say "Good
morning Sir." My total 15 minute touch with fame was meeting these two
gentlemen. Never miss a space shot on the TV since.

Yeah, we suited up at the hangar and walked to the plane. When we got
back we reversed the sequence and that was the law as established by our
skipper. Since he was a full Captain no one tended to disobey as we knew
he sat on the right hand of the Secretary of the Navy. Yup, old days,
long gone and not missed by anyone but us old farts.

George

[vincent p. norris]

>Was good duty though, that's where I met my wife in 1958 and we've been
>married since 1960. Two kids, five grandkids, and 1.5 greatgrandkids
>later she's still a beauty and a good woman.

Congratulations! You've been blessed! I've got seven grandkids but no
"great" ones yet.

vince norris

[vincent p. norris]

>Loved mine but were not a 'liberty' uniform, working uniform only...

Too bad! I thought they were a darn good-looking uniform.

(And not just because they sorta resembled marine greens!) ((:-))

vince norris

[TAH]

I second that.

Next to my father's Service Dress Whites (called Summer Whites back when I
was growing up in the 60's and 70's) it was my favorite uniform. I remember
him wearing it a lot. According to Dad when he arrived at his first duty
station, VW-11 in Argentia, as a brand new NAO it was not uncommon for
officer flight crew to wear the Greens instead of flight suits. Even when he
transitioned to the VP community and flew the P2V's, some folks still wore
their Greens instead of flight suits.

I asked him about whether it was considered a working uniform versus being
an optional dress uniform. He responded that it was a "working uniform",
especially where the surface/submarine community was concerned. He recalled
how the marine sentry standing gate guard between NAS Norfolk and the Naval
Station where his carrier was moored would remind officers and chiefs coming
aboard the naval station of the Admiral's strict orders that folks wearing
aviation green were to make a beeline to the ship with no stops in between.

It's ironic that some of the prior posts here speak of them being worn by
folks at NAS Brunswick, ME. That's where I last remember Dad wearing his
Greens from 70-72. After that he took command of a reserve center where he
was the only aviation type onboard. When he arrived at his next duty
station, a pacific coast naval air station in 1975, both the Greens and old
style khakis were history.

In fact Brunswick was the last place he wore the old Service Dress Khaki
(the one with long sleeves, tie, dress coat and brown shoes). I'm surprised
he didn't wear it while at the reserve center since it was an authorized
optional uniform until the Summer of 1975. However, he relates that toward
the end it wasn't as comfortable a uniform as it had been when he was first
commissioned. He said that his first uniforms had bellowed pleats whereas in
later years they tended not to be tailored that way and often looked a
little frumpy. Nonetheless I thought it was a neat looking uniform and a far
better sight than the current short sleeve CNT version of khaki that passes
for a dress uniform today.

Also, from what I can gather from various historical photos and from what
I've been told, the Aviation Green uniform's popularity waned considerably
after the Korean War era, especially among tactical aviation folks. And when
patrol, transport and other squadrons flying prop driven aircraft adopted
flight suits as required clothing while in flight, I think that started the
initial demise of the uniform.

I was hoping that when then-Secretary Lehman brought back the Greens and
brown shoes he would also replace the CNT with the old style dress khaki -
no such luck! However, the brown shoe did make the CNT's a bit more
respectable looking. While a summer intern at a naval station I noticed
aviation types assigned to the naval base staff wear them with pride.
However, folks didn't take to the Greens. Even my old college roommate, a
NFO in the E2C community, wore the shoes but didn't bother with the Greens.
I've seen them a few times around Whidbey, but not like I did growing up.

One final note. While perusing the old family photo albums I came across
pictures of my father's sister's wedding. He was the one who walked her down
the aisle. Since he was the only one in his family to have served in the
military he was always asked to wear his uniform. Looking closely at the
picture I realized he was wearing neither dress blues, dress whites, nor
even dress khakis. Instead he walked his sister down the church aisle in a
Aviation Green working uniform!! When I asked him about it, he shrugged and
said that it was a busy weekend with two reserve squadrons being called up
in response to the Pueblo Incident. He and all the other active duty cadre
were getting folks mobilized and it was either that or a flight suit. At
the time he was stationed at the former NAS New York (Floyd Bennett Field).
His family couldn't tell an American naval seaman from a Royal Navy Admiral
of the Fleet. He just had to stay clear of the Brooklyn Navy Yard and the
freckled face kid wearing his weekend sailor suit could care less what
uniform he wore as he drove out the maingate. As an epilogue, a couple
years ago while visiting relatives in New York that I hadn't seen in ages.
My aunt related that the only good thing about her wedding day was having
her older brother walk her down the aisle in his sharp looking navy uniform.
--

vincent p. norris > wrote in message
...
> >Loved mine but were not a 'liberty' uniform, working uniform only...
>
> Too bad! I thought they were a darn good-looking uniform.
>
> (And not just because they sorta resembled marine greens!) ((:-))
>
> vince norris

[George Shirley]

vincent p. norris wrote:

>>Was good duty though, that's where I met my wife in 1958 and we've been
>>married since 1960. Two kids, five grandkids, and 1.5 greatgrandkids
>>later she's still a beauty and a good woman.
>
>
> Congratulations! You've been blessed! I've got seven grandkids but no
> "great" ones yet.
>
> vince norris

The men in my family tend to die young, mostly of heart disease. We tend
to marry young and breed early. My daughter married at 18, had her first
baby before she was 19 and then two more, all three years apart. I've
got grandkids that range from 23 to 3 since my son was a late bloomer. B-)

Yes, I have been truly blessed, good wife, good kids, mostly good grandkids.

George

[Robert Moore]

"TAH" > wrote
> In fact Brunswick was the last place he wore the old Service
> Dress Khaki (the one with long sleeves, tie, dress coat and
> brown shoes).

Jeeeze...can someone tell us what commissioned officers are
wearing now? I left the Navy in 1967 after 10 years of service.
My uniform didn't change much though, double-breasted blue to
single-breasted blue at PanAm.

Bob Moore

[TAH]

Here in Washington State, Navy Region Northwest has Service Dress Blues as
the service uniform from October through April. Summer Dress Whites (short
sleeves) from May through September. Service Dress Khakis (CNT's with
devices and ribbons) may be worn year round. Usually if you are standing
the duty or attending a function where coat and tie are appropriate, one
wears the blues or whites. Otherwise folks wear khakis. Through the early
90's working blues were authorized during the winter months, but with khakis
being authorized year round I don't see them as much. And of course,
everyone finds an excuse to wear cammies it seems - exaggeration but you get
the point.

--

Robert Moore > wrote in message
...
> "TAH" > wrote
> > In fact Brunswick was the last place he wore the old Service
> > Dress Khaki (the one with long sleeves, tie, dress coat and
> > brown shoes).
>
> Jeeeze...can someone tell us what commissioned officers are
> wearing now? I left the Navy in 1967 after 10 years of service.
> My uniform didn't change much though, double-breasted blue to
> single-breasted blue at PanAm.
>
> Bob Moore

[user]

CNT's??? I wore them for the first 4 years of wearing khakis, (94-98),
but they have since been replaced by Poly-Wools, for about 5 years
now. While CNT's are still authorized, the newer poly-wools are much
more comfortable, they keep you warmer in cold weather and breath more
in hot weather, plus they are much more servicable, they are wash and
wear.

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 20:56:16 GMT, "TAH" > wrote:

>Here in Washington State, Navy Region Northwest has Service Dress Blues as
>the service uniform from October through April. Summer Dress Whites (short
>sleeves) from May through September. Service Dress Khakis (CNT's with
>devices and ribbons) may be worn year round. Usually if you are standing
>the duty or attending a function where coat and tie are appropriate, one
>wears the blues or whites. Otherwise folks wear khakis. Through the early
>90's working blues were authorized during the winter months, but with khakis
>being authorized year round I don't see them as much. And of course,
>everyone finds an excuse to wear cammies it seems - exaggeration but you get
>the point.

[TAH]

Sorry I'm a little dated. I left DOD in the early-90's. I still go on base
occasionally but no longer pay much attention to the uniform rack.

--

user > wrote in message
...
> CNT's??? I wore them for the first 4 years of wearing khakis, (94-98),
> but they have since been replaced by Poly-Wools, for about 5 years
> now. While CNT's are still authorized, the newer poly-wools are much
> more comfortable, they keep you warmer in cold weather and breath more
> in hot weather, plus they are much more servicable, they are wash and
> wear.
>

[Robert Moore]

user > wrote

> CNT's??? I wore them for the first 4 years of wearing khakis,
> (94-98), but they have since been replaced by Poly-Wools, for
> about 5 years now. While CNT's are still authorized, the newer
> poly-wools are much more comfortable, they keep you warmer in
> cold weather and breath more in hot weather, plus they are much
> more servicable, they are wash and wear.

What are CNTs?? Describe Poly-Wools please. Perhaps I wouldn't
recognize a Naval Officer if I were to meet one! :-)

Bob Moore
LT USNR 1958-1967
VP-21 FAETULANT VP-46

[user]

Ok Bob,
CNT stands for "certified Navy twill" which was actually 100%
polyester, certainly not suitable for shipboard use, kinda melts on ya
if it ever burned and they were hard to clean and had to be pressed
all the time. Poly-Wools are 75% polyester and 25% wool, and have the
creases glued in, so ya just wash and dry them and shake em out pretty
well and they look ok. There were some problems when the first
poly-wools first came out, like the glue falling out of the creases
and the threads coming undone, plus you smelt like a wet rat if you
got rained on. And the fit was a little different. But they fixed
them, and they are ok now, in my opinion.
(By the way, is that command you have in connection with your name a
joke? FAETULANT??? Sounds like "FLATULANT" haha!!! Hey I was a VP
perdiem puke for 12 years outta my 18 year enlisted career, but a few
generations after you were. P-3C's, all versions, then Prowlers and
EP-3E SSIP/ JMOD as a CWO.)

On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 00:41:48 GMT, Robert Moore
> wrote:

>user > wrote
>
>> CNT's??? I wore them for the first 4 years of wearing khakis,
>> (94-98), but they have since been replaced by Poly-Wools, for
>> about 5 years now. While CNT's are still authorized, the newer
>> poly-wools are much more comfortable, they keep you warmer in
>> cold weather and breath more in hot weather, plus they are much
>> more servicable, they are wash and wear.
>
>What are CNTs?? Describe Poly-Wools please. Perhaps I wouldn't
>recognize a Naval Officer if I were to meet one! :-)
>
>Bob Moore
>LT USNR 1958-1967
>VP-21 FAETULANT VP-46

[Robert Moore]

user > wrote
> CNT stands for "certified Navy twill"

What color, shape, etc.? Can I watch "JAG" to find
what current uniforms look like?


>(By the way, is that command you have in
> connection with your name a joke? FAETULANT???
> Sounds like "FLATULANT" haha!!!

Fleet Airborne Electronics Training Unit Atlantic
I taught at the Nuclear Weapons Delivery school
for the East Coast.

Yeah, I did P-3Bs in Utapoa, Thialand during Vietnam.

Bob Moore

[user]

Hey Bob,
I was describing khakis, and you can't really tell the
difference between any of the materials unless you get up close. JAG
looks like they have a pretty good uniform consultant, but of course
the Hollywood spin is thrown in for effect. The actors are way too
highly decorated and way too young. They routinely have Navy and
Marine Corps O-5's and O-6's in their early to mid thirties???
Utapao? Last time I was there was '97, (anybody remember Dave
Doble?) I was the Chief on a team of maintenance and aircrew guys in
there to do an assesment of the Thai Navy's progress with their P-3B
program. My #'s might be off, but if I remember correctly, they bought
5? P-3B's, 2 of them were just for spare parts. When we were there,
only one was flyable and they had another that they liked to high
speed taxi up and down the runway. Our aircrew was scheduled to fly
with them, and they were gonna fly with us, kinda see how each other
did business. It only took about 45 min. before the OIC of the det
made the decision that there was no way in hell we were gonna fly on
their aircraft. To make a long story short, their maintenance program
was scary. They all went thru JAX for initial training, and had
contracted with LSI for all the follow on aircrew and maintenance
training, but renegged on it after they cross decked all their money
into the A7 FMS program. They also got hit hard with PRB-92 which
affected I think 6 of their props. It was a great time and the Thai
Navy guys were awesome, they performed miracles with the little
training and spare parts they had.
You might be interested in a book called "ADAK: The Rescue of
Alpha Foxtrot 586" by Andrew Jampoler, about the VP-9 ditching off the
Aleuts in 1978. Mr. Jampoler is an ex "Milpitas Chicken" Skipper,
(way before my time, I was in Big Red in the Mid eighties). He was in
Jacksonville at the NEX in August and I spoke to him for awhile, and
he signed my book. Not pitching him, but his book is a really good and
interesting read, I couldn't put it down. You can check out some of
the reviews at Amazon.

On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 12:44:24 GMT, Robert Moore
> wrote:

>user > wrote
>> CNT stands for "certified Navy twill"
>
>What color, shape, etc.? Can I watch "JAG" to find
>what current uniforms look like?
>
>
>>(By the way, is that command you have in
>> connection with your name a joke? FAETULANT???
>> Sounds like "FLATULANT" haha!!!
>
>Fleet Airborne Electronics Training Unit Atlantic
>I taught at the Nuclear Weapons Delivery school
>for the East Coast.
>
>Yeah, I did P-3Bs in Utapoa, Thialand during Vietnam.
>
>Bob Moore

[Robert Moore]

user > wrote

> You might be interested in a book called "ADAK: The Rescue of
> Alpha Foxtrot 586" by Andrew Jampoler, about the VP-9 ditching
> off the Aleuts in 1978.

Thanks for the info and the book reccomendation!

Bob

[Thomas Schoene]

TAH wrote:
> Here in Washington State, Navy Region Northwest has Service Dress
> Blues as the service uniform from October through April. Summer Dress
> Whites (short sleeves) from May through September. Service Dress
> Khakis (CNT's with devices and ribbons) may be worn year round.

Just a little nit: isn't that last uniform called Service Khaki (or Working
Khaki if it's sans ribbons) rather than Service Dress Khaki? I thought
Service Dress Khaki was the old khaki jacket with long-sleeve khaki shirt
and tie. That was a sharp uniform; it's a shame it was lost in the press to
reduce uniform counts.

--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

[TAH]

You maybe correct. It's been a few years. I'm sure I could go check out the
online uniform regs (or someone else could). Also, another post here
mentioned the transition from CNT to a poly/wool fabric.

However, like you I agree, I believe the old khaki jacket, long sleeve shirt
and tie combo was sharp and wish it were part of the chief and officer
uniform.

--

Thomas Schoene > wrote in message
ink.net...
> TAH wrote:
> > Here in Washington State, Navy Region Northwest has Service Dress
> > Blues as the service uniform from October through April. Summer Dress
> > Whites (short sleeves) from May through September. Service Dress
> > Khakis (CNT's with devices and ribbons) may be worn year round.
>
> Just a little nit: isn't that last uniform called Service Khaki (or
Working
> Khaki if it's sans ribbons) rather than Service Dress Khaki? I thought
> Service Dress Khaki was the old khaki jacket with long-sleeve khaki shirt
> and tie. That was a sharp uniform; it's a shame it was lost in the press
to
> reduce uniform counts.
>
> --
> Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
> "If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
> special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)
>
>
>
>

[Robert Moore]

"TAH" > wrote

> However, like you I agree, I believe the old khaki jacket, long
> sleeve shirt and tie combo was sharp and wish it were part of
> the chief and officer uniform.

My "Wings Pinning" photo was made in that uniform at Kingsville, TX
in 1959. I can't believe that it no longer exists.
Is there a long sleeve "service dress" uniform for summer wear now?
Probably not, considering that the CENTCOM Army General does his TV
appearences in camouflage while seated in airconditioned comfort here
in Tampa, FL. :-)

Bob Moore
JO of the old school