Separating the men from the boys

[Robert Moore]

Below is an article written by Rick Reilly of Sports Illustrated.
He details his experiences when given the opportunity to fly in a
F-14 Tomcat.

"Now this message for America's most famous athletes:

Someday you may be invited to fly in the back-seat of one of your
country's most powerful fighter jets. Many of you already have.
John Elway, John Stockton, Tiger Woods to name a few. If you get
the opportunity, let me urge you, with the greatest sincerity,
Move to Guam. Change your name. Fake your own death! Whatever you
do,
do not go.

I know. The U.S. Navy invited me to try it. I was thrilled. I was
pumped. I was toast! I should've known when they told me my pilot
would be Chip (Biff) King of Fighter Squadron 213 at Naval Air
Station Oceana in Virginia Beach.

Whatever you're thinking a Top Gun named Chip (Biff) King looks
like, triple it. He's about six-foot, tan, ice-blue eyes, wavy
surfer hair, finger-crippling handshake.....the kind of man who
wrestles dyspeptic alligators in his leisure time. If you see
this man, run the other way.....Fast.

Biff King was born to fly. His father, Jack King, was for years
the voice of NASA missions. ("T-minus 15 seconds and counting
..." Remember?) Chip would charge neighborhood kids a quarter
each to hear his dad. Jack would wake up from naps surrounded by
nine-year-olds waiting for him to say, "We have a liftoff."

> Biff was to fly me in an F-14D Tomcat, a ridiculously powerful
$60 million weapon with nearly as much thrust as weight, not
unlike Colin Montgomerie. I was worried about getting airsick, so
the night before the flight I asked Biff if there was something I
should eat the next morning.

"Bananas," he said.
"For the potassium?" I asked.
"No," Biff said, "because they taste about the same coming up as
they do going down."

The next morning, out on the tarmac, I had on my flight suit with
my name sewn over the left breast. (No call sign like Crash or
Sticky or Leadfoot but, still, very cool.) I carried my helmet in
the crook of my arm, as Biff had instructed. If ever in my life I
had a chance to nail Nicole Kidman, this was it.

A fighter pilot named Psycho gave me a safety briefing and then
fastened me into my ejection seat, which, when employed, would
"egress" me out of the plane at such a velocity that I would be
immediately knocked unconscious.

Just as I was thinking about aborting the flight, the canopy
closed over me, and Biff gave the ground crew a thumbs-up.
In minutes we were firing nose up at 600 mph. We leveled out
and then canopy-rolled over another F-14.

Those 20 minutes were the rush of my life. Unfortunately, the
ride lasted 80. It was like being on the roller coaster at Six
Flags Over Hell. Only without rails. We did barrel rolls, sap
rolls, loops, yanks and banks. We dived, rose and dived again,
sometimes with a vertical velocity of 10,000 feet per minute. We
chased another F-14, and it chased us. We broke the speed of
sound.
Sea was sky and sky was sea. Flying at 200 feet we did 90-degree
turns
at 550 mph, creating a G force of 6.5, which is to say I felt as
if
6.5 times my body weight was smashing against me, thereby
approximating life as Mrs. Colin Montgomerie.

And I egressed the bananas. I egressed the pizza from the night
before. And the lunch before that. I egressed a box of Milk Duds
from the sixth grade. I made Linda Blair look polite. Because of
the G's, I was egressing stuff that did not even want to be
egressed. I went through not one airsick bag, but two.

Biff said I passed out. Twice. I was coated in sweat. At one
point, as we were coming in upside down in a banked curve on a
mock bombing target and the G's were flattening me like a
tortilla and I was in and out of consciousness, I realized I was
the first person in history to throw down.

I used to know cool. Cool was Elway throwing a touchdown pass, or
Norman making a five-iron bite. But now I really know cool. Cool
is guys like Biff, men with cast-iron stomachs and freon nerves.
I wouldn't go up there again for Derek Jeter's black book, but
I'm glad Biff does every day, and for less a year than a rookie
reliever makes in a home stand.

A week later, when the spins finally stopped, Biff called. He
said he and the fighters had the perfect call sign for me. Said
he'd send it on a patch for my flight suit.

What is it? I asked.

"Two Bags."

[R4tm4ster]

AMEN !

[Pechs1]

rmoore-<< Flying at 200 feet we did 90-degree
turns
at 550 mph >><BR><BR>


Oopps. I'm sure he meant 500 feet....
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Jim Strand]

On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 02:46:44 GMT, Robert Moore
> wrote:

>
> Below is an article written by Rick Reilly of Sports Illustrated.
> He details his experiences when given the opportunity to fly in a
> F-14 Tomcat.
>

Reminds me of the Jerry Reed F-16 monologue.




***********************************************
ACC USN ret.
NKX, BIKF, NAB, CV-63, NIR
67-69 69-71 71-74 77-80 80-85
&
74-77

Co-founder of newsgroup - RAMN
Anti-spam measures in action.
For e-mail response delete "nospam"

***********************************************

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 11/1/03 9:05 AM, in article ,
"Pechs1" > wrote:

> rmoore-<< Flying at 200 feet we did 90-degree
> turns
> at 550 mph >><BR><BR>
>
>
> Oopps. I'm sure he meant 500 feet....
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

What's wrong with 200 feet?

[Dave in San Diego]

"Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" > wrote in
:

> On 11/1/03 9:05 AM, in article
> , "Pechs1"
> > wrote:
>
>> rmoore-<< Flying at 200 feet we did 90-degree
>> turns
>> at 550 mph >><BR><BR>
>>
>>
>> Oopps. I'm sure he meant 500 feet....
>> P. C. Chisholm
>> CDR, USN(ret.)
>> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
>> Phlyer
>
> What's wrong with 200 feet?

Nothing at all. On 2 July 1971, I was standing on the roof of the tower
at NAS Broomstick and watched the #7 Blue Angels F-4 make a pass around
the tower, right to left, @ 80 deg bank, over the grass and I was looking
down on the right wingtip.

Dave in San Diego

--
-
"For once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes
turned skyward;
For there you have been, and there you long to return."
Leonardo da Vinci

[gizmo-goddard]

"Pechs1" > wrote in message
...
> rmoore-<< Flying at 200 feet we did 90-degree
> turns
> at 550 mph >><BR><BR>
>
>
> Oopps. I'm sure he meant 500 feet....

I've done more than a couple of TARPS hops when some legs of the mission
were down at 200 ft AGL. My first flight with Hunyack on the boat was the
standard Hunyack-1 arrival. At about 50 miles out, we descended down to 200
ft over the water then he pushed it down to about 50 feet at about 550
knots. That's how we came into the break. If it were anybody else, CAG would
have pitched him off the fantail afterwards, but because it was Hunyack,
nothing of consequence (that a lowly LTJG would know about) ever happened.

__!_!__
Gizmo

[R]

"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
...
> On 11/1/03 9:05 AM, in article
,
> "Pechs1" > wrote:
>
> > rmoore-<< Flying at 200 feet we did 90-degree
> > turns
> > at 550 mph >><BR><BR>
> >
> >
> > Oopps. I'm sure he meant 500 feet....
> > P. C. Chisholm
> > CDR, USN(ret.)
> > Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
Phlyer
>
> What's wrong with 200 feet?
>

Nothing! 20, 200, 2,000, 20,000 feet. Its all the same as long as you don't
bump into anything.

Red Rider

[John Miller]

Dave in San Diego wrote:
> Nothing at all. On 2 July 1971, I was standing on the roof of the tower
> at NAS Broomstick and watched the #7 Blue Angels F-4 make a pass around
> the tower, right to left, @ 80 deg bank, over the grass and I was looking
> down on the right wingtip.

That would have been around the time that J.D. Davis was flying No. 7. Got
a ride with him once. Unforgettable.

--
John Miller
My email address: domain, n4vu.com; username, jsm

The whole of life is futile unless you consider it as a sporting
proposition.

[Pechs1]

Doug-<< What's wrong with 200 feet? >><BR><BR>


Welll, been a while since I've been in and I have been known to fly less than
500 ft AGL on occasion but isn't the OPNAV min for non combat ops 500 feet??
Was when I was flyin'...Lower for the A-G guys that completed a 'step down'
program?? This was a F-14, VF-213...
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Pechs1]

Dave-<< Nothing at all. On 2 July 1971, I was standing on the roof of the tower

at NAS Broomstick and watched the #7 Blue Angels F-4 make a pass around
the tower, right to left, @ 80 deg bank, over the grass and I was looking
down on the right wingtip. >><BR><BR>

The 'Blues' have waivers of every shape and kind...
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Pechs1]

Red-<< Nothing! 20, 200, 2,000, 20,000 feet. Its all the same as long as you
don't
bump into anything. >><BR><BR>

I guess ya all miss my point. I flew less than 500 ft AGL many times but on
debrief I was always no lower than the OPNAV min, and my Mode 'C' was off....
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 11/2/03 9:56 AM, in article ,
"Pechs1" > wrote:

> Doug-<< What's wrong with 200 feet? >><BR><BR>
>
>
> Welll, been a while since I've been in and I have been known to fly less than
> 500 ft AGL on occasion but isn't the OPNAV min for non combat ops 500 feet??
> Was when I was flyin'...Lower for the A-G guys that completed a 'step down'
> program?? This was a F-14, VF-213...
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Since I'm in a squadron with a 500 FT AGL SOP, I don't exercise my 200 FT
muscles any more but...

Back in the day when I flew VA (the REAL Medium Attack kind--not that
Corsair stuff), our SOP called for a 200 FT AGL minalt that we flew at very
regularly--500 FT AGL night/IMC.

IIRC, OPNAV 3710... Series currently calls for a minalt of 200 FT.

And... the VFA FRS LATT syllabi have waivers that allow them a 100 FT
demo--not comfortable with the IP's in the trunk. The current LATT dive
recovery rules of 25 for 1500, 15 for 750, 5 for 250 (and 20 for 1,000, 10
for 500, and 5 for 250... again IIRC) reflect a 200 FT AGL minalt too.

I may peruse the 3710 one more time though to make sure I'm not telling
tales out of school. It's been a while since I've put my eyeballs on that
particular page.

--Woody

[Mike Kanze]

Woody,

>Back in the day when I flew VA (the REAL Medium Attack kind--not that
Corsair stuff), our SOP called for a 200 FT AGL minalt that we flew at very
regularly--500 FT AGL night/IMC.

My recollection as well, from the early 1970s.

Not sure, but I THINK that on the OB-16 route (Eastern Oregon canyons) A-6s
were authorized lower than 500 AGL at night if the system was tight and the
crew felt OK about things.

Owl sends.
--
Mike Kanze

436 Greenbrier Road
Half Moon Bay, California 94019-2259
USA

650-726-7890

"When was the last time in world history in which 'suicide' and 'martyrdom'
were the code of enlightened action admired by any society?"

- Roy Fassel (WALL STREET JOURNAL, 10/27/03)


"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
...
> On 11/2/03 9:56 AM, in article
,
> "Pechs1" > wrote:
> [rest snipped]

[Elmshoot]

Mike/Woody,
In the 80's and early 90's
Day VFR 200' if the route allowed. Night TC we used 1000' I did go down to 500'
in certain approved areas. ie; Bordman.
For weapons delivery what ever was allowed in the tac manual.
I used 100' /300kias for a laydown on the nuke delivery at Fallon was it B-16?
Not very tactical but I always got a bull.
We were doing a night anti boghammer exercise in the IO and I ws using 100'
500kias for the profile. the plane would do 520
Sparky


Not sure, but I THINK that on the OB-16 route (Eastern Oregon canyons) A-6s
>were authorized lower than 500 AGL at night if the system was tight and the
>crew felt OK about things.
>
>Owl sends.

[JamesF1110]

> If it were anybody else, CAG wouldhave pitched him off the fantail
>afterwards, but because it was Hunyack,nothing of consequence (that a lowly
>LTJG would know about) ever happened

Why the special dispensation?

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 11/2/03 8:08 PM, in article , "Mike
Kanze" > wrote:

> Woody,
>
>> Back in the day when I flew VA (the REAL Medium Attack kind--not that
> Corsair stuff), our SOP called for a 200 FT AGL minalt that we flew at very
> regularly--500 FT AGL night/IMC.
>
> My recollection as well, from the early 1970s.
>
> Not sure, but I THINK that on the OB-16 route (Eastern Oregon canyons) A-6s
> were authorized lower than 500 AGL at night if the system was tight and the
> crew felt OK about things.
>
> Owl sends.

Owl,

I think that the OB-16 turned into the IR-346... Great route... Not the
VR-1355 through the Cascades, but still a lot of fun.

I can still remember my first night low-level on that route when I finally
had enough guts to peak outside on a 1/4 moon night only to see the shadows
of the huge mountains surrounding me.

I quickly buried my head in the instruments again realizing that the "video
game" in front of me had pretty stiff consequences if I lost. I'm sure
we've all had those personal moments. Probably doesn't compare to the 'Nam
though.

--Woody

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 11/2/03 10:16 PM, in article
, "Elmshoot" >
wrote:

> Mike/Woody,
> In the 80's and early 90's
> Day VFR 200' if the route allowed. Night TC we used 1000' I did go down to
> 500'
> in certain approved areas. ie; Bordman.
> For weapons delivery what ever was allowed in the tac manual.
> I used 100' /300kias for a laydown on the nuke delivery at Fallon was it B-16?
> Not very tactical but I always got a bull.
> We were doing a night anti boghammer exercise in the IO and I ws using 100'
> 500kias for the profile. the plane would do 520
> Sparky
>
>
> Not sure, but I THINK that on the OB-16 route (Eastern Oregon canyons) A-6s
>> were authorized lower than 500 AGL at night if the system was tight and the
>> crew felt OK about things.
>>
>> Owl sends.
>

Owl,

What I actually *did* as a young idiot and what was 3710/SOP are two
different stories, of course. I think Pechs' original question was a 3710
issue... But I like the digression!

For me (late '80's early '90's), we flew 1000' AGL (3rd range bin?) on our
first trips back into the night/IMC low level world to refresh our TC quals,
but SOP was 500 feet (2nd range bin was close enough), and usually (even on
the 342/344/346) we'd fly that (mostly on ridge crossings, of course). When
NVG's came along, we'd no-kidding fly 500' AGL... And back it up with the
system.

Personal records. 100'AGL over water at night at mil power--same as you.
(Why? Because I was dumb. It's not like anyone can see you or you get
extra points for going that low and fast.) 140' AGL, 534 knots (off the
freeze data) at Boardman on a night straight path delivery (60' hit). 500'
AGL up the John Day River Valley at night in the goo. B/N's radar was
practically a pin point. Both of us agreed not to do that any more. I
routinely saw straight and level 530 knots (or so) down low on the gauge.

OBTW... 1.15M on the meter coming back from an FCF A. I don't think we were
actually supersonic though.

As an aside, the VFA guys used to (don't know if they still do it) used to
keep low altitude NVG quals. The guy with the biggest cahones is the one
with the low altitude NVG-I. YIKES. You couldn't pay me to do that without
a TC system. The one in the Hornet doesn't count.

--Woody

[Pechs1]

Doug-<< What I actually *did* as a young idiot and what was 3710/SOP are two
different stories, of course. I think Pechs' original question was a 3710
issue >><BR><BR>

As I get older, my memory goes the way of late nights and pitching decks...less
fun. But I was never in a squadron where the min wasn't 500 ft AGL...all
Fighter squadrons.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 11/3/03 8:24 AM, in article ,
"Pechs1" > wrote:

> Doug-<< What I actually *did* as a young idiot and what was 3710/SOP are two
> different stories, of course. I think Pechs' original question was a 3710
> issue >><BR><BR>
>
> As I get older, my memory goes the way of late nights and pitching
> decks...less
> fun. But I was never in a squadron where the min wasn't 500 ft AGL...all
> Fighter squadrons.
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

That's why all of us Intruder pukes made fun of you... Except when you were
flying sweep or BARCAP for us.

Pechs, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Now that you mention it, I
do remember flying low-levels with the Tomcat guys and having the SOP
difference come up. I'm pretty sure that's what it was--a community
differences issue.

--Woody

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 11/3/03 5:24 AM, in article , "Doug
"Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote:

> On 11/2/03 8:08 PM, in article , "Mike
> Kanze" > wrote:
>
>> Woody,
>>
>>> Back in the day when I flew VA (the REAL Medium Attack kind--not that
>> Corsair stuff), our SOP called for a 200 FT AGL minalt that we flew at very
>> regularly--500 FT AGL night/IMC.
>>
>> My recollection as well, from the early 1970s.
>>
>> Not sure, but I THINK that on the OB-16 route (Eastern Oregon canyons) A-6s
>> were authorized lower than 500 AGL at night if the system was tight and the
>> crew felt OK about things.
>>
>> Owl sends.
>
> Owl,
>
> I think that the OB-16 turned into the IR-346... Great route... Not the
> VR-1355 through the Cascades, but still a lot of fun.
>
> I can still remember my first night low-level on that route when I finally
> had enough guts to peak outside on a 1/4 moon night only to see the shadows
> of the huge mountains surrounding me.
>
> I quickly buried my head in the instruments again realizing that the "video
> game" in front of me had pretty stiff consequences if I lost. I'm sure
> we've all had those personal moments. Probably doesn't compare to the 'Nam
> though.
>
> --Woody
>

I meant peek outside. Excuse the pun and the spelling.

[gizmo-goddard]

"JamesF1110" > wrote in message
...
> > If it were anybody else, CAG wouldhave pitched him off the fantail
> >afterwards, but because it was Hunyack,nothing of consequence (that a
lowly
> >LTJG would know about) ever happened
>
> Why the special dispensation?

I have no idea other than the fact that he was a helluva stick. Not very
smart and certainly not a great administrator (he left that area up to his
XO, J.L. Johnson, who was later CNO), but he was a great pilot.

__!_!__
Gizmo

[Mike Kanze]

Woody,

>What I actually *did* as a young idiot and what was 3710/SOP are two
different stories, of course.

3710/SOP aside, we were operating during the very end of the VN war. There
was a higher level of tolerance / looking-the-other-way by the low rocket
numbers back then.

Big sea change came in late 1973 / early 1974: end of actual US-involved VN
hostilities, Yom Kippur War / Arab oil embargo / fuel shortages, severe
throttling back of budget dollars and flight hours - and much more attention
to the bureaucratic i-dotting and t-crossing.

IOW, the fun was over.

>Personal records. 100'AGL over water at night at mil power--same as you.
(Why? Because I was dumb. It's not like anyone can see you or you get
extra points for going that low and fast.)

Not QUITE as dumb as all that. Remember - in the Intruder there were TWO
pairs of eyes looking forward through the same windscreen. If the VS
community could do it - albeit at lower airspeeds - so could we.

>500' AGL up the John Day River Valley at night in the goo. B/N's radar was
practically a pin point. Both of us agreed not to do that any more.

Now think about what that might have been like with an "A" system. <BG>

Owl's personal record: Daylight / VMC ~30' AGL at 360 over a VERY FLAT
section of
desert somewhere in the Chocolate Mountains range for about 2 - 3 minutes.
Dave, my stick, was a married man so we didn't press it beyond that.

******

As a new outfit back then, VA-95 was EXTREMELY fortunate. A former SPAD
squadron that also had a one-cruise flirtation with A-4s during the 1960s,
VA-95 was reestablished as the last VN-era A-6 squadron in 1972. The
Lizards were mainly a bunch of nuggets, yours truly among them. Only one or
two of the senior O-3s had cruised before. Senior leadership was a mix
of "pre-enjoyed" A-6 folks and A-4 community retreads. At this stage of
hostilities, A-6 talent was spread very thinly throughout the fleet.

This is a recipe for potential disaster for a new squadron, shooting
happening or not. But despite this, and the loss of a crew at Boardman
during workups, we had no mishaps during my stay with them - including the
entire 1973 cruise. I attribute this mainly to our (we nuggets) KNOWING how
little we knew and thus our paying strict attention to the details. (There
was also a little of the "I don't want to be the last guy killed in VN"
thinking in there as well.)

We thus spared ourselves from doing many of the dumb things others had done,
flying low aside.

--
Mike Kanze

436 Greenbrier Road
Half Moon Bay, California 94019-2259
USA

650-726-7890

"When was the last time in world history in which 'suicide' and 'martyrdom'
were the code of enlightened action admired by any society?"

- Roy Fassel (WALL STREET JOURNAL, 10/27/03)


"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
...
> On 11/2/03 10:16 PM, in article
> , "Elmshoot"
>
> wrote:
> [rest snipped]

[Elmshoot]

>OBTW... 1.15M on the meter coming back from an FCF A. I don't think we were
>actually supersonic though.


Woody,
Before Chuck Suwells (SP) (Grumman test pilot) demise. He said that the A-6
would not go supersonic. He tried straight down and full power with no luck. He
also did a road show were he would take A-6 pilots up in the right seat and
spin the A-6 as a demo. Now thats some quality Special Crew time.

He did say the Prowler would go Supersonic. I tried many times and I guess I
did it but no one ever called to complain about the supersonic boom. I also ran
into the Mach tuck mentioned in the NAtops manual. It seemed to be airframe
specific. Most Prowlers it was barely noticeable but we had one that would
pitch down 3-5 degrees. It would really get everyones attention. Once we
understood what was happening it was OK but I damn near overstressed the plane
the first time it happened.

Sparky

[Pechs1]

Doug-<< Pechs, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Now that you mention
it, I
do remember flying low-levels with the Tomcat guys and having the SOP
difference come up. I'm pretty sure that's what it was--a community
differences issue. >><BR><BR>

Think so too, and remember I was in Turkeys when they were A-A only..But my SOP
in VF-126 was 500 ft AGL as well...altho I have looked up at the tops of cactus
around the Yuma A-A range...
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Jim]

>
> "Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On 11/1/03 9:05 AM, in article
> ,
> > "Pechs1" > wrote:
> >
> > > rmoore-<< Flying at 200 feet we did 90-degree
> > > turns
> > > at 550 mph >><BR><BR>
> > >
> > >
> > > Oopps. I'm sure he meant 500 feet....
> > > P. C. Chisholm
> > > CDR, USN(ret.)
> > > Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
> Phlyer
> >
> > What's wrong with 200 feet?
> >
>
> Nothing! 20, 200, 2,000, 20,000 feet. Its all the same as long as you
don't
> bump into anything.
>
> Red Rider

On west pac 82 while bored on Gonzo station severial Turkeys made High
speed runs past our ship and we would give them a grade...
breaking the bordom...

The (I beleive it was ) XO of the Black Lions made a high speed (about
..95m ) pass while inverted.
I was on the 03 level of the USS bainbridge and saw the underside of a his
turkey... AGL was an estimated 50ft.
He won but that did seem to end the game...


Jim

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 11/4/03 9:41 AM, in article ,
"Pechs1" > wrote:

> Doug-<< Pechs, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Now that you mention
> it, I
> do remember flying low-levels with the Tomcat guys and having the SOP
> difference come up. I'm pretty sure that's what it was--a community
> differences issue. >><BR><BR>
>
> Think so too, and remember I was in Turkeys when they were A-A only..But my
> SOP
> in VF-126 was 500 ft AGL as well...altho I have looked up at the tops of
> cactus
> around the Yuma A-A range...
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Pechs,

I thumbed through 3710 today just to refresh my own knowledge. In my quick
perusal of the flight rules section, I could find no references to an
absolute minimum altitude for flying Navy aircraft.

There are some "refer to FAR part 91" words, and a discussion in the MTR
section about staying within the route structure both vertically and
laterally (typically no lower than 01 AGL on even the sportiest routes), but
no specific reference to an absolute MINALT.

BUT... In the ACM training rules section there is mention that pilots not
being LATT qual'ed must stay above 500' AGL and pilots with formal LATT
training must be above 200' AGL.

I believe that TYPE WING and squadron SOP's set the hard minimums.

--Woody

[John R Weiss]

"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote...
>
> I thumbed through 3710 today just to refresh my own knowledge. In my quick
> perusal of the flight rules section, I could find no references to an
> absolute minimum altitude for flying Navy aircraft.

Look at par 5.2.6.a on page 5-15.

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 11/4/03 9:17 PM, in article xZZpb.108555$HS4.919278@attbi_s01, "John R
Weiss" > wrote:

> Look at par 5.2.6.a on page 5-15.

Thanks, JR...

I thought it was in there somewhere... guess my perusal was too quick!

Quote:

"Except when necessary for takeoff and landing
or when the mission of the flight requires otherwise,
flights in fixed-wing aircraft shall not be
conducted below an altitude of 500 feet above the
terrain or surface of the water."

That sticky gray area for CO's is that first sentence isn't it? Formal LATT
training gets around that these days, but I could SWEAR that number was 200'
AGL in the late '80's - early '90's.

--Woody

[Gordon]

I know you guys are talking jets, but there is nothing in the NATOPS against
flying heloes right down in the rotorwash - ten to fifty feet was completely
common, depending on what we were doing. While that much is obvious, there was
also no restriction against scuttling around at insanely low altitudes and
lethal speeds. I know 120 knots is peanuts to you guys, but I have had pilots
(a particular one in mind) that would fly the helo at absolute top speed, with
the nose of the helicopter 10 feet above the sea. Being in the back during
such a stunt, I felt that one ill-timed glance and the pilot would dump us face
first into the water.

Each time a pilot elected to fly in this particular flight attitude (tail high,
nose down, balls out and skimming), I made it a habit to unstrap and go
forward, carefully sitting on the radio control panel between the pilots.
(Kind of sidesaddle, with my legs toward the door and my torso turned
sideways, with my left shoulder almost up even with the pilots.) Excellent
vantage point, providing me with every bit as exciting a ride as the pilots.
Typically, my choice of seating caused a bit of ICS chatter, with one or both
of them asking some variation of WTFAYD? I said, "If I'm going to get
vaporized on impact while you guys are having fun, I at least want to be able
to see it coming." Discussion never went beyond that and at whatever point
they switched to practicing something else, I'd go back, give a cabin status
report and strap in.

My reasoning for this is that there is no way to use my radar when we have the
tail 30 degrees higher than the nose, with a radar horizon fifty feet out, so
why stay in my seat during one of those sprints? I would have preferred sitting
in the door, but NATOPS commanded the door be closed over 90 knots -
spoil-sports...

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

[WaltBJ]

Hmmm. We usually didn't go below 300 feet in populated areas of the US
- too many phones. But we were going up low-level to Ku-ni range in
Korea, out of Kunsan, four in loose tactical, 420 KIAS, when lead said
"Go Low!" We all squatted down on the deck and went under a high
tension line thatwasn't on our maps - Korean imporvement that hadn't
got to our level yet. We did learm to fly very low level there,
though. Came in handy flying out of DaNang. When the invasion started
in March 72 the monsoon was on - we had to skyspot and loran-drop for
a week or so. Then the weather cleared and we went up to hit a
barracks complex by Vinh. Out over the water, 420 and 200 ASL, abotu
40 miles out to sea. About halfway up we passed, on the sea side, 5
USN DDs, in line ahead. Each one was flying 2 big US flags - must have
been 25 feet long - from the yardarms. I had thought only the RN flew
battle flags. Seen against the buildups over the land, bright sun,
blue water, the sight really pumped me up! Turning inbound we pushed
it up to 500 and let down to 50 ASL. Popped in AB crossing the beach,
rolled in at 14,000 for 45 dive with release at 8000. Looked at
target, flak looked like the USN in the Battle for Okinawa only viewed
from the kamikaze side. I wished I'd figured for a release at 10 but .
.. . Eight of us dropped 6 CBU52 apiece and got out of Dodge. We all
dodged the golden bbs. The CBUs smothered the complex; never did get
any BDA.
The DDs were headed back down the coast as we RTB'd. The beautiful
sight of those ships has stayed with me all of 30+ years.
Walt BJ

[Gordon]

Thanks, Walt! That was a hell of a visual...

v/r
Gordon

[WaltBJ]

You're welcome, Gordon. It was comforting knowing the Navy was out
there on our route to and from Pack 1. On a later strike, in April 72,
a SeaKing picked up one of my crews just north of the DMZ. We had
struck a SA2 site NE of Bat lake and #3 in the first flight got a 37
hit just crossing the beach. They lost an engine, were on fire, made
it out over the water, ejected successfully and were in their rafts as
we came back out after hitting the site. (We did kill the radar van,
the primary target) I went up to 15K and to max endurance as their
leader was in a low CAP right over them. I sent my guys off to either
find a tanker or get a quick turnaround while RESCAP was paged. Their
leader went bingo so I descended slowly while waiting for a pickup.
The two guys in their rafts - Charlie Hall and Lee Bohner - were
chatting back and forth on their survival radios - sounded cool, like
they were floating around off Miami Beach! About then a real big
camouflaged helicopter came in from the north. I was on a high downwnd
taking a real good look at him while resetting the sight to 38 mils
for strafe (F4E - with a gun!) But it turned out to be a CH53 USN type
in sand and green splotch camo - had never seen one like that before,
and at first I had thought it was one of the big USSR ones. Just then
a USN Seaking (white and orange!) showed up - he'd been on a mail run
around the ships out there and heard the beeper and then saw the smoke
from the F4. They picked up my crew and dropped them off in our area
at Danang about 15 minutes after we got back. Found out later Charlie
was shelling them with 122mm guns during the pickup! Great service -
too bad the Seaking crew couldn't stay the night, though.
Walt BJ

[Gordon]

>Great service -
>too bad the Seaking crew couldn't stay the night, though.

Wouldn't that have been a party!

It always amazed me what happens when a beeper comes on the radio. For all
directions in dozens of miles, every helo crew on Guard hears it in the same
moment and announces, "ITS OURS!"

Several of my pilots were formerly Big Muthas and each of them have my
unfailing respect. I love the visual of a Jolly coming in from one direction
and a eye-popping "camo" HS Seaking comes charging in, undoubtably squawking,
"GOT EM!" I am grateful your friends Charlie and Lee came through it all ok.

v/r
Gordon