US Navy nose cone colours?

[lee garnett]

Could anyone explain what the rules were for nose cone colours on Navy jets
during Vietnam?

Is it Squadron Commander, Pacific vs Atlantic, paint available.......

The pictures of F4s, F8s and A7s I've seen shown black and white even on the
same carrier [and the occasional pale yellow].


Thank you in advance for any help

Lee

--
It is the bicycle you don't hear that kills you - Amsterdam 2002

[Ralph Savelsberg]

lee garnett wrote:

> Could anyone explain what the rules were for nose cone colours on Navy jets
> during Vietnam?
>
> Is it Squadron Commander, Pacific vs Atlantic, paint available.......
>

> The pictures of F4s, F8s and A7s I've seen shown black and white even on the
> same carrier [and the occasional pale yellow].
>

Part of it depended on when the aircraft was delivered. I don't know too
much about the Phantoms, but for the Tomcat I know that initial
deliveries had the front of the radome left unpainted (pale yellow) and
part of it white, with the rest of the airplane being light grey on top
and white on the bottom (with white control surfaces).
Later aircraft used to have the light grey on top and white on the
bottom extended to the radome.
Aircraft delivered in the late `seventies were light grey overall and so
was the radome. Aircraft delivered in the `eighties were drab grey
overall (with a somewhat lighter shade on the bottom than on the top).

Generally aircraft in serving the same squadron would in principle have
more-or-less the same paintjob, including a certain colour (or lack of
it) on the radome. In part this was due to squadrons being equipped with
new aircraft from the same production batch. In part it was because of
squadron traditions.
For instance, VF-41 `Black Aces' had black radomes on their Phantoms
for a very long time, and even continued this tradition when they
initially recieved Tomcats, making one cruise with them in full colour.
Sadly, VF-41 was one of the first Tomcat units to tone down, leading
to the end of the tradition. VF-31 `Tomcatters' also used to have black
radomes on their Phantoms and Tomcats, and kept painting the radomes
black on many of their aircraft into the early `ninetees.

Obviously, aircraft would tend to be swapped from unit to unit, so units
operating a type that had been in service for a while would often have a
mixture of aircraft that had previously served with other units and
would have been maintained by those other units.

Regards,
Ralph Savelsberg


>
> Thank you in advance for any help
>
> Lee
>
>

[Legal Tender]

There was no hard and fast rule about the color of Radomes. All Radomes were
coated with a rubberized anti-erosion coating. This was to protect the ones
made up of fiberglass. These coating's came in 3 colors, White, a off
white/light yellow and black. You could add any paint to colorize the
coating.
Once the Sqd's got the new jet from the factory or back from NARF the
radomes were normally not painted. Reason for this was they was a school of
thought that felt that paint would interfere with the radar or impurities in
the pain would interfere with the radar.
Upon receipt of the Aircraft the Sqds would paint the radome per Sqd
instructions. Most A/C just stuck with the gray on top and the white
underbelly for the Radomes. I was once told that the F-4 guys liked the
black because it was a flat paint with no glare.
Frank


"lee garnett" > wrote in message
...
>
> Could anyone explain what the rules were for nose cone colours on Navy
jets
> during Vietnam?
>
> Is it Squadron Commander, Pacific vs Atlantic, paint available.......
>
> The pictures of F4s, F8s and A7s I've seen shown black and white even on
the
> same carrier [and the occasional pale yellow].
>
>
> Thank you in advance for any help
>
> Lee
>
> --
> It is the bicycle you don't hear that kills you - Amsterdam 2002
>
>

[Gordon]

CAG Hal was running Ike's airwing during the 1980 "Good deal cruise" (93 days
underway, 4 day break, 155 days underway). As CAGs like to do, the Captain
flew everything on the boat, including a VA-65 A-6 that I am sure he wishes he
didn't...

On deck (I was a VS-31 Plane Captain), we looked aft whenever we heard someone
on final - one day, I glanced up and an A-6 was just coming aboard. It was way
off line to the right, to the point I ducked out of the way when he decided to
wave off. BAP BAP BAP then a roar as the CAG went down the deck a few feet
above it. Looking back down the deck, toward that weird BAP sound, I saw that
he had knocked the nose cones off at least a couple Tomcats packed behind the
island! One nosecone was on the deck, maybe more, and at least a couple others
had been nicked.

The VF squadrons politely swept up the mess and reassembled their abused F-14s
(damage was minor on them), but the nosecones were accidentally/deliberated
swapped - for the rest of the cruise, the paintjobs on our Dawgs and
Ghostriders seemed to never match their noses again.

Sure glad the only thing hurt that day was CAG's pride!

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

[WDA]

Reminds me of a similar nose cone strike on a carrier deck.

It was during a WestPac 1958 deployment on the Bon Homme Richard. An A-3D
tapped off center far to the right. His right wingtip went through the nose
radomes of the other three A-3Ds parked aft of the island, leaving all four
A-3Ds not airworthy.

In one stroke the Bonnie Dick's nuclear strike capability had been reduced
by a third. That pilot was on the next COD back to CONUS.

WDA
CDR USN
VF-24, VA-192, VAH-4

end

"Gordon" > wrote in message
...
> CAG Hal was running Ike's airwing during the 1980 "Good deal cruise" (93
days
> underway, 4 day break, 155 days underway). As CAGs like to do, the
Captain
> flew everything on the boat, including a VA-65 A-6 that I am sure he
wishes he
> didn't...
>
> On deck (I was a VS-31 Plane Captain), we looked aft whenever we heard
someone
> on final - one day, I glanced up and an A-6 was just coming aboard. It
was way
> off line to the right, to the point I ducked out of the way when he
decided to
> wave off. BAP BAP BAP then a roar as the CAG went down the deck a few
feet
> above it. Looking back down the deck, toward that weird BAP sound, I saw
that
> he had knocked the nose cones off at least a couple Tomcats packed behind
the
> island! One nosecone was on the deck, maybe more, and at least a couple
others
> had been nicked.
>
> The VF squadrons politely swept up the mess and reassembled their abused
F-14s
> (damage was minor on them), but the nosecones were
accidentally/deliberated
> swapped - for the rest of the cruise, the paintjobs on our Dawgs and
> Ghostriders seemed to never match their noses again.
>
> Sure glad the only thing hurt that day was CAG's pride!
>
> v/r
> Gordon
> <====(A+C====>
> USN SAR Aircrew
>
> "Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
> "Nothing but my forehead, sir."

[Gordon]

>
>In one stroke the Bonnie Dick's nuclear strike capability had been reduced
>by a third. That pilot was on the next COD back to CONUS.

But think of it - he probably saved the crews on those other all three deads.

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

[Pechs1]

Ralph-<< VF-31 `Tomcatters' also used to have black
radomes on their Phantoms and Tomcats, and kept painting the radomes
black on many of their aircraft into the early `ninetees. >><BR><BR>

Yep and don't forget the red hub caps!!

In VF-31 'Pencil Noses' in Turkeys, 1985-1988
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Will Dossel]

(Gordon) wrote in message >...
> CAG Hal was running Ike's airwing during the 1980 "Good deal cruise" (93 days
> underway, 4 day break, 155 days underway).

Don't forget, 347 days total underway time for 1980 also ;)

>
> The VF squadrons politely swept up the mess and reassembled their abused F-14s
> (damage was minor on them), but the nosecones were accidentally/deliberated
> swapped - for the rest of the cruise, the paintjobs on our Dawgs and
> Ghostriders seemed to never match their noses again.
>
> Sure glad the only thing hurt that day was CAG's pride!
>
Yeah, that day, but you forgot the wing sweep incident later on
deployment that left the Dogs (I think) w/one less jet for flyoff...
that was also his least Tomcat hop too IIRC. As far as flying with
all the others, well, I think I remember him flying with us
(Bluetails)-- once -- ;)

Will Dossel
last of the Steeljaws (VAW-122)

[Gordon]

>Yeah, that day, but you forgot the wing sweep incident later on
>deployment that left the Dogs (I think) w/one less jet for flyoff...
>that was also his least Tomcat hop too IIRC.

Dredging up some rather dormant brain cells here, but wasn't he responsible for
the infamous "Lost Dawg"? I have photos of it somewhere, after the flight
leader brought his element in to land on Ike (gee, I wonder why there is
exhaust coming out of that carrier..?), realized his mistake and waved off, but
didn't warn #2, who went on to trap on Connie. They kept the Tomcat for a
short period, to facilitate a little "corrosion control" (a rather thorough job
of graffiti application) before the 'Lost Dawg' and crew returned to Ike for
their public embarrassment. Wasn't CAG the flight lead for that incident as
well....?

> As far as flying with
>all the others, well, I think I remember him flying with us
>(Bluetails)-- once --

Your birds weren't sexy enough for him LOL. :)) Nice to see you again,
Will.

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

[Will Dossel]

(Gordon) wrote in message >...
> >Yeah, that day, but you forgot the wing sweep incident later on
> >deployment that left the Dogs (I think) w/one less jet for flyoff...
> >that was also his least Tomcat hop too IIRC.
>
> Dredging up some rather dormant brain cells here, but wasn't he responsible for
> the infamous "Lost Dawg"? I have photos of it somewhere, after the flight
> leader brought his element in to land on Ike (gee, I wonder why there is
> exhaust coming out of that carrier..?), realized his mistake and waved off, but
> didn't warn #2, who went on to trap on Connie. They kept the Tomcat for a
> short period, to facilitate a little "corrosion control" (a rather thorough job
> of graffiti application) before the 'Lost Dawg' and crew returned to Ike for
> their public embarrassment. Wasn't CAG the flight lead for that incident as
> well....?

.... I had launched on the event just before the lost Dog's return, saw
the IFF hit coming from Connie that ID'd it as one of ours and asked
if he had just launched from her...after a pregnant pause came the
reply "roger -- and I'm not going to say why..."

Here's 'nother CAG/Tomcat story -- during one of the "killer May"
evolutions, we ran out of F-14s, literally. The only up jet was the
one CAG was flying as all the alerts kept going down on deck. Sooooo,
we tanked him and kept him airborne...for 5 or 6 cycles as I recall (I
remember passing him off to the oncoming E-2 as we RTB'd, sometimes
it's good not to have IFR capability). I also recall he was kind of
stiff when he finally landed and got out of the jet ;)


My first encounter w/CAG came during my first underway period
(workups) as a newly minted NFO (Ensign-type) standing my very first
SDO watch underway. Our CO was standing in for CAG at 8 o'clock
reports that night (cue the foreboding music). He had had a long
night/day already and when he got back from his flight, headed for the
rack, asking me to wake him about .5 prior to 8 o'clocks. "Sure
skipper, no problem" 1805 and CAG office called "politely" asking (as
only the 5MC would permit) (a) where is the CO for 8 o'clocks and (b)
for my presence in CAG office, pronto. Stopped by, woke up CO enroute
who rolled his eyes and said he'd meet me there (CAG Office). After
cooling my heels for a few tension filled minutes, I was summoned in
whereupon CAG thundered "Ensign, why wasn't your CO at 8 o'clocks and
just what the h*ll were you thinking?" I looked him straight on and
said (quite honestly, I might add...) "Jeez CAG, I thought 8 o'clocks
went down at 8 o'clock....?" The choking sound I heard I later
attributed to CAGOPS trying not to laugh out loud. CAG stopped, tried
to say something and finally just threw me out of the office... Of
course, our SWO made sure I got the requisite training all new SDOs
should get, as well as ample opportunity to put said training to
practice for the next week :/

>
> > As far as flying with
> >all the others, well, I think I remember him flying with us
> >(Bluetails)-- once --
>
> Your birds weren't sexy enough for him LOL. :))
>
Welll, beauty *is* in the eye of the beholder... ;)

Will Dossel
Last of the Steeljaws (VAW-122)

[Gordon]

> Here's 'nother CAG/Tomcat story -- during one of the "killer May"
>evolutions, we ran out of F-14s, literally.

Ha! That Ubangi A-7 pilot that got to be "fighter pilot for a day" couldn't
have been happier - the May inbound looked like all the previous ones, except
it had an A-7 "fighter escort"! The Tomcat hung off to the side, as if it
didn't want to be seen in the same formation :))

> The only up jet was the
>one CAG was flying as all the alerts kept going down on deck. Sooooo,
>we tanked him and kept him airborne...for 5 or 6 cycles as I recall (I
>remember passing him off to the oncoming E-2 as we RTB'd, sometimes
>it's good not to have IFR capability). I also recall he was kind of
>stiff when he finally landed and got out of the jet

LOL

>
> My first encounter w/CAG came during my first underway period
>(workups) as a newly minted NFO (Ensign-type) standing my very first
>SDO watch underway. Our CO was standing in for CAG at 8 o'clock
>reports that night (cue the foreboding music). He had had a long
>night/day already and when he got back from his flight, headed for the
>rack, asking me to wake him about .5 prior to 8 o'clocks. "Sure
>skipper, no problem" 1805 and CAG office called "politely" asking (as
>only the 5MC would permit) (a) where is the CO for 8 o'clocks and (b)
>for my presence in CAG office, pronto. Stopped by, woke up CO enroute
>who rolled his eyes and said he'd meet me there (CAG Office). After
>cooling my heels for a few tension filled minutes, I was summoned in
>whereupon CAG thundered "Ensign, why wasn't your CO at 8 o'clocks and
>just what the h*ll were you thinking?" I looked him straight on and
>said (quite honestly, I might add...) "Jeez CAG, I thought 8 o'clocks
>went down at 8 o'clock....?" The choking sound I heard I later
>attributed to CAGOPS trying not to laugh out loud. CAG stopped, tried
>to say something and finally just threw me out of the office... Of
>course, our SWO made sure I got the requisite training all new SDOs
>should get, as well as ample opportunity to put said training to
>practice for the next week :/

Beats my first encounter with him. I was a pup, not old enough to
drink/shave/vote/etc., and our first portcall was the Bahamas. Remember the
Playboy Club? I ditched my E-1-to-E-3 friends and raced to that club's
bar/casino and had myself an awful tasting tequila sunrise. While I was busy
trying to not blow it out on the floor, the slightly surly gent beside me at
the bar looked on as if I was going to be first to be voted off the island. No
uniform, but I could tell by the way he growled that he was used to giving
orders to 17 year olds... I found another seat and switched to Tres
Generations (good call!), while he sat alone at the end of the bar with all his
'friends'. Back on the boat, I passed him one day and realized I had had a
close brush with CAG. To show how much of a kid I was, I honestly thought CAG
and the Air Boss were the same guy - and I was used to the Boss bellowing for
me by then.

"Plane Captain, Seven Four Seven, man your damned aiiiirrrrrrplane!" I used to
hear that one in my sleep.

- obviously. :))

Will, have you ever written it all down? I bet you could put together
something with a career like yours. If you need pix of Ike, let me know - I
took hundreds on that cruise (already looked - I have a couple good shots of
one of your birds on the cat at readiness, but unforch its a bit soft focused).

v/r
Gordon

[Bill Kambic]

A slightly different CAG story.

One of the many crosses that a junior Stoof CAPC (Carrier Air Plane
Commander) had to bear was riding "shotgun" with nuggets during FCLPs.

One night I had just finished with nugget number 3 and thought I was done
when the LSO directed me to taxi to the platform for one more. I thought
that was unusual, as we generally switched seats on the squadron line. But
I headed over and my nugget climbed out of the left seat and was I surprised
when CAG 56 hisself climbed in!

I had never met him before, only knew he was a rotorhead and generally flew
with one of the HS squadrons. He was pleasant and while we were getting
ready to go informed me that the last time he had done any fixed wing FCLPs
was in a Turkey at Block Island. ("Turkey" in this case was the Original
Turkey, the TBM.)

My only thought was, "Oh, ****."

So when he was all strapped in and we had done a quick run-up we got cleared
for take off. His taxi was not too bad, but he did try to over-rotate a bit
on lift off. I was "spring loaded" to the "I've got it" position after he
tried to make a 50-degree angle of bank turn to the downwind (this is a
Stoof, remember) but managed to get to the 180 pretty much on altitude,
heading and airspeed.

We rolled into the groove and he bore-sighted the mirror. Right, dead,
square in the center of the windscreen. The LSO called "lineup" but nothing
happened. Airspeed and attitude were OK. A second "LINEUP" call also
resulted in no change.

About now I was mentally reviewing 3710 and contemplating my future career.
He was the CAG and could do what he wanted, but I was signed for the
aircraft. In the end, I figured a bad FITREP was better than a smoking hole
and yelled "WAVEOFF" as I popped the throttles out of his hand and was a
starting to apply pressure on the yoke. Fortune was smiling on me, however,
for as I yelled "WAVEOFF" so did the LSO. The waveoff lights corresponded
with my push on the throttles and he was reacting only about a nanosecond
after me. I don't think he ever knew that I had momentary control of the
aircraft.

As soon as I saw that he was flying again, I backed off. As we turned
downwind (we were the last plane in the pattern) he turned to me and said,
"Kind of close, huh?" I just said, "Yes, Sir, just a bit!"

Again the downwind leg was OK and we hit a good 180. And he rolled out
again in the groove with the mirror right in the center of the windshield.
We got one "lineup" call, then a very early waveoff. (I was later informed
by our squadron LSO that on our first approach, for the first time in living
memory, all hands abandoned the LSO cart during FCLPs.)

The next pass we lined up kind of on center line (but definitely not on the
mirror). We touched down long (he tried to pull back on the yoke, almost
like he wanted to hover, but my hand was in the way) and the LSO said, "OK,
225, you're done." Oh, happy day!

He made pleasant small talk as we taxied in and shut down. I told him I
would take care of putting the aircraft to bed. He thanked me for the
flight, and was gone. To the best of my knowledge he never again flew a
stiff wing bird either at the field or the boat. And that was probably a
Good Thing.

Bill Kambic

If, by any act, error, or omission, I have, intentionally or
unintentionally, displayed any breedist, disciplinist, sexist, racist,
culturalist, nationalist, regionalist, localist, ageist, lookist, ableist,
sizeist, speciesist, intellectualist, socioeconomicist, ethnocentrist,
phallocentrist, heteropatriarchalist, or other violation of the rules of
political correctness, known or unknown, I am not sorry and I encourage you
to get over it.

"Gordon" > wrote in message
...
> > Here's 'nother CAG/Tomcat story -- during one of the "killer May"
> >evolutions, we ran out of F-14s, literally.
>
> Ha! That Ubangi A-7 pilot that got to be "fighter pilot for a day"
couldn't
> have been happier - the May inbound looked like all the previous ones,
except
> it had an A-7 "fighter escort"! The Tomcat hung off to the side, as if
it
> didn't want to be seen in the same formation :))
>
> > The only up jet was the
> >one CAG was flying as all the alerts kept going down on deck. Sooooo,
> >we tanked him and kept him airborne...for 5 or 6 cycles as I recall (I
> >remember passing him off to the oncoming E-2 as we RTB'd, sometimes
> >it's good not to have IFR capability). I also recall he was kind of
> >stiff when he finally landed and got out of the jet
>
> LOL
>
> >
> > My first encounter w/CAG came during my first underway period
> >(workups) as a newly minted NFO (Ensign-type) standing my very first
> >SDO watch underway. Our CO was standing in for CAG at 8 o'clock
> >reports that night (cue the foreboding music). He had had a long
> >night/day already and when he got back from his flight, headed for the
> >rack, asking me to wake him about .5 prior to 8 o'clocks. "Sure
> >skipper, no problem" 1805 and CAG office called "politely" asking (as
> >only the 5MC would permit) (a) where is the CO for 8 o'clocks and (b)
> >for my presence in CAG office, pronto. Stopped by, woke up CO enroute
> >who rolled his eyes and said he'd meet me there (CAG Office). After
> >cooling my heels for a few tension filled minutes, I was summoned in
> >whereupon CAG thundered "Ensign, why wasn't your CO at 8 o'clocks and
> >just what the h*ll were you thinking?" I looked him straight on and
> >said (quite honestly, I might add...) "Jeez CAG, I thought 8 o'clocks
> >went down at 8 o'clock....?" The choking sound I heard I later
> >attributed to CAGOPS trying not to laugh out loud. CAG stopped, tried
> >to say something and finally just threw me out of the office... Of
> >course, our SWO made sure I got the requisite training all new SDOs
> >should get, as well as ample opportunity to put said training to
> >practice for the next week :/
>
> Beats my first encounter with him. I was a pup, not old enough to
> drink/shave/vote/etc., and our first portcall was the Bahamas. Remember
the
> Playboy Club? I ditched my E-1-to-E-3 friends and raced to that club's
> bar/casino and had myself an awful tasting tequila sunrise. While I was
busy
> trying to not blow it out on the floor, the slightly surly gent beside me
at
> the bar looked on as if I was going to be first to be voted off the
island. No
> uniform, but I could tell by the way he growled that he was used to giving
> orders to 17 year olds... I found another seat and switched to Tres
> Generations (good call!), while he sat alone at the end of the bar with
all his
> 'friends'. Back on the boat, I passed him one day and realized I had had
a
> close brush with CAG. To show how much of a kid I was, I honestly thought
CAG
> and the Air Boss were the same guy - and I was used to the Boss bellowing
for
> me by then.
>
> "Plane Captain, Seven Four Seven, man your damned aiiiirrrrrrplane!" I
used to
> hear that one in my sleep.
>
> - obviously. :))
>
> Will, have you ever written it all down? I bet you could put together
> something with a career like yours. If you need pix of Ike, let me know -
I
> took hundreds on that cruise (already looked - I have a couple good shots
of
> one of your birds on the cat at readiness, but unforch its a bit soft
focused).
>
> v/r
> Gordon

[Dave Kearton]

"Bill Kambic" > wrote in message
...
> A slightly different CAG story.
>
> One of the many crosses that a junior Stoof CAPC (Carrier Air Plane
> Commander) had to bear was riding "shotgun" with nuggets during FCLPs.
>
> One night I had just finished with nugget number 3 and thought I was done
> when the LSO directed me to taxi to the platform for one more. I thought
> that was unusual, as we generally switched seats on the squadron line.
But
> I headed over and my nugget climbed out of the left seat and was I
surprised
> when CAG 56 hisself climbed in!



What's the protocol for that moment ?


Do you shake his hand, do the equivalent of a slaute or what ?


I can imagine that both pilots would be tense about screwing up in public.






Cheers


Dave Kearton

[Not Nice Anymore]

I was a VS-31 A/C flying AFs and S-2s.

"Gordon" > wrote in message
...
> CAG Hal was running Ike's airwing during the 1980 "Good deal cruise" (93
days
> underway, 4 day break, 155 days underway). As CAGs like to do, the
Captain
> flew everything on the boat, including a VA-65 A-6 that I am sure he
wishes he
> didn't...
>
> On deck (I was a VS-31 Plane Captain), we looked aft whenever we heard
someone
> on final - one day, I glanced up and an A-6 was just coming aboard. It
was way
> off line to the right, to the point I ducked out of the way when he
decided to
> wave off. BAP BAP BAP then a roar as the CAG went down the deck a few
feet
> above it. Looking back down the deck, toward that weird BAP sound, I saw
that
> he had knocked the nose cones off at least a couple Tomcats packed behind
the
> island! One nosecone was on the deck, maybe more, and at least a couple
others
> had been nicked.
>
> The VF squadrons politely swept up the mess and reassembled their abused
F-14s
> (damage was minor on them), but the nosecones were
accidentally/deliberated
> swapped - for the rest of the cruise, the paintjobs on our Dawgs and
> Ghostriders seemed to never match their noses again.
>
> Sure glad the only thing hurt that day was CAG's pride!
>
> v/r
> Gordon
> <====(A+C====>
> USN SAR Aircrew
>
> "Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
> "Nothing but my forehead, sir."

[Bill Kambic]

"Dave Kearton" wrote in message

> But
> > I headed over and my nugget climbed out of the left seat and was I
> surprised
> > when CAG 56 hisself climbed in!
>
> What's the protocol for that moment ?

I said, "Good evening, CAG!"

> Do you shake his hand, do the equivalent of a slaute or what ?

Formality in the cockpit of a Stoof would have been difficult!<g>

> I can imagine that both pilots would be tense about screwing up in public.

Naw, I was just tired and ready to pack it in. Besides, he was supposed to
fly, not me!<g>

Bill Kambic

If, by any act, error, or omission, I have, intentionally or
unintentionally, displayed any breedist, disciplinist, sexist, racist,
culturalist, nationalist, regionalist, localist, ageist, lookist, ableist,
sizeist, speciesist, intellectualist, socioeconomicist, ethnocentrist,
phallocentrist, heteropatriarchalist, or other violation of the rules of
political correctness, known or unknown, I am not sorry and I encourage you
to get over it.

[Gordon]

>Re: US Navy nose cone colours?)
>From: "Not Nice Anymore"
>Date: 12/3/2003 5:00 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>I was a VS-31 A/C flying AFs and S-2s.

Always a pleasure to meet another Topcat! You operate Julie and Sniffer, that
type of thing..?

v/r
Gordon

[James Woody]

If I remember correctly on the '70 WP we had an A7 land on the Hanna,
thinking that it was the Kitty Hawk - talk about a pilot needing his
eyes checked. That A7 was also full of corrosion that needed looked after.

Woody

Gordon wrote:
>>Yeah, that day, but you forgot the wing sweep incident later on
>>deployment that left the Dogs (I think) w/one less jet for flyoff...
>>that was also his least Tomcat hop too IIRC.
>
>
> Dredging up some rather dormant brain cells here, but wasn't he responsible for
> the infamous "Lost Dawg"? I have photos of it somewhere, after the flight
> leader brought his element in to land on Ike (gee, I wonder why there is
> exhaust coming out of that carrier..?), realized his mistake and waved off, but
> didn't warn #2, who went on to trap on Connie. They kept the Tomcat for a
> short period, to facilitate a little "corrosion control" (a rather thorough job
> of graffiti application) before the 'Lost Dawg' and crew returned to Ike for
> their public embarrassment. Wasn't CAG the flight lead for that incident as
> well....?
>
>
>> As far as flying with
>>all the others, well, I think I remember him flying with us
>>(Bluetails)-- once --
>
>
> Your birds weren't sexy enough for him LOL. :)) Nice to see you again,
> Will.
>
> v/r
> Gordon
> <====(A+C====>
> USN SAR Aircrew
>
> "Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
> "Nothing but my forehead, sir."

[Gordon]

>If I remember correctly on the '70 WP we had an A7 land on the Hanna,
>thinking that it was the Kitty Hawk - talk about a pilot needing his
>eyes checked.

Only a difference of a 27 ton ship to an 81 ton ship. Easy mistake, right?
<cof>

[Not Nice Anymore]

Yes, as well as the RADAR. Later on, JEZABEL (as well).

"Gordon" > wrote in message
...
> >Re: US Navy nose cone colours?)
> >From: "Not Nice Anymore"
> >Date: 12/3/2003 5:00 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >I was a VS-31 A/C flying AFs and S-2s.
>
> Always a pleasure to meet another Topcat! You operate Julie and Sniffer,
that
> type of thing..?
>
> v/r
> Gordon

[Bill Kambic]

"Gordon" wrote in message

> Always a pleasure to meet another Topcat! You operate Julie and Sniffer,
that
> type of thing..?

Be careful with that Sniffer lest you make Julie mad!<g>

Bill Kambic

P.S. In my collection of misc. stuff in the garage I have an old picture of
Julie Gibson, the girl who could make passive bouys go active!!!!!!!!!!

If, by any act, error, or omission, I have, intentionally or
unintentionally, displayed any breedist, disciplinist, sexist, racist,
culturalist, nationalist, regionalist, localist, ageist, lookist, ableist,
sizeist, speciesist, intellectualist, socioeconomicist, ethnocentrist,
phallocentrist, heteropatriarchalist, or other violation of the rules of
political correctness, known or unknown, I am not sorry and I encourage you
to get over it.

[Gordon]

Going from S-3s (new, but always down due to computer dumps), to H-3s (want
contact? simple - you just PING), to H-2s ("Pilot, Senso, I feel a disturbance
in the force. It could be a submarine."), I was pretty sure that my next duty
station would include some de-mothballed Nepture, formerly held in deep reserve
for just this occasion.

I know this may sound stupid, but what was the difference between Julie and
Jez? We had Jezebel when I first started in ASW but it was on its way out.
Eight years later I reported to the USS Kirk (Foreign Legion boat in Yokosuka)
and found its entire sonobuoy locker filled with the old 60 pound roto-chute
antiques that they used to train us on at A-school. Our failure rate with them
was about 50-75%, depending on whether we really needed them to work or not.
':\

Sniffer was a memory by then - I never got to even see the system. Did it
actually work...??

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

[Bill Kambic]

"Gordon" wrote in message

> Going from S-3s (new, but always down due to computer dumps), to H-3s
(want
> contact? simple - you just PING), to H-2s ("Pilot, Senso, I feel a
disturbance
> in the force. It could be a submarine."), I was pretty sure that my next
duty
> station would include some de-mothballed Nepture, formerly held in deep
reserve
> for just this occasion.

Well, your life's not over, yet!<g>

> I know this may sound stupid, but what was the difference between Julie
and
> Jez?

"Jezebel" was a codeword for straight, passive acoustic analysis.
Synonomous with LOFAR. Originally no directional capability. DIFAR got us
bearing lines (however tentative).

Julie was a system named after a famous 14th Street stripper. Her act was
supposed to be pretty arousing, "making passive boys go active." So, when
some bright fellow got the idea that you could bomb a LOFAR bouy with a SUS
and get a range circle you made a passive system active. Thus, the name.

It worked with the aircraft laying a circular pattern (4000 or 8000 yards,
IIRC) of four bouys. The aircraft flew the circle, maintaining a MAD watch
while bombing the bouys and listening for echos. One got you a range
circle, two got you ambiguous fixes, and three got you an unambiguous fix.
Three fixes got you attack criteria.

Of course, it didn't always work that way. In addition to circles from
direct bombing you could also get elipses from the A + B range. Try
plotting an elipse using a manuevering board, a pair of dividers with a
string attached, and a pencil while being bumped around at 100' (keeping one
eye on the altimeter so your CAPC did not get you wet).

As you might guess the data rate was pretty low and against a high speed sub
it was not all that effective. The best thing about it was probably that
you could make a lurking sub run, mesing up his targeting. If he were a
diesel boat (lots of them in the Soviet Navy in those days) you make him
chew up his battery.

We really did not use Julie much outside of CAPC tests and occational
readiness quals. We swapped our S2Es for S2Gs about half way through my
tour and that gave us DIFAR, DICASS, and such.

We had Jezebel when I first started in ASW but it was on its way out.
> Eight years later I reported to the USS Kirk (Foreign Legion boat in
Yokosuka)
> and found its entire sonobuoy locker filled with the old 60 pound
roto-chute
> antiques that they used to train us on at A-school. Our failure rate with
them
> was about 50-75%, depending on whether we really needed them to work or
not.

We didn't use many of the A size bouys (what you found) but used the B size
carried in chutes mounted at the back of the nacelles. They were actually
pretty reliable.

> Sniffer was a memory by then - I never got to even see the system. Did it
> actually work...??

Well, define "work"!!!!!<g>

In the mid-Atlantic we actually tracked a snorting boat one day, but I think
that was once in 2.5 years. On the other hand it worked great as a NAVAID
for finding I-95!<g>

ASW in those days was a very labor intensive business. A good crew could
give a sub a run for its money. If the sub crew was good they would get
most likely get away if active tracking measures were used. Two good crews
could generally kill one, even if the sub were pretty good. The ideal was
three Stoofs and three Whistling **** Cans. One helo in the dip, and two in
transit/setting up with the Stoofs running continuos MAD tracking (mark on
top the hot helo and run out the bearing to the contact).

If everybody was on their game we could (and did) hold Soviet and U.S. fast
attack nukes long enough to generate valid attack criteria. Sadly, such
datums were rare. But when we had one and when it worked it was almost
better than sex!!!!<g>

Bill Kambic

If, by any act, error, or omission, I have, intentionally or
unintentionally, displayed any breedist, disciplinist, sexist, racist,
culturalist, nationalist, regionalist, localist, ageist, lookist, ableist,
sizeist, speciesist, intellectualist, socioeconomicist, ethnocentrist,
phallocentrist, heteropatriarchalist, or other violation of the rules of
political correctness, known or unknown, I am not sorry and I encourage you
to get over it.

[Gordon]

Thanks for the rundown, Bill. I guess I was vaguely aware of those methods,
but never really had a clear picture of how it all worked together - thanks for
giving me the abbreviated course. :)

v/r
Gordon