Approval document issued for IGC Position Recorder

[Ian Strachan]

Dear Friends,

I am pleased to announce that a new approval document for an IGC
Position Recorder has been issued by the Gliding Federation of
Australia for flights under its jurisdiction, after discussion with
the IGC GNSS Flight Recorder Approval Committee (GFAC). The IGC
Position Recorder is a new category of recording device, introduced on
1 October 2009 with the latest update to the Sporting Code for
gliding.

The Australian Approval is dated 15 February 2010 and is for the
flyWithCE Recorder, manufactured by Uro Podlogar s.p., Ulica Lojzeta
Hrovata 9, 4000 Kranj, Slovenia (www.flyWithCE.com).

The Approval Document issued by the Gliding Federation of Australia
can be viewed at:

www.fai.org/gliding/position_recorders

under "The Gliding Federation of Australia"
and "Approval Document: flyWithCE".

------------------

Other National Gliding Authorities might look at the Position Recorder
approval documents that are available on the gliding/
position_recorders web site, and consider whether they wish to issue
their own versions.

The two existing approval documents for IGC Position Recorders are:

1. Fédération Française de Vol à Voile approval document (in French
and English) for Flarm-
equipped devices that have outputs in the IGC file format. These
include:

Ediatec ECW100,
LXN Red Box Flarm and Mini Box Flarm,
Swift Avionics MiniOz and OzFlarm,
Swiss Flarm after 1 January 2005,
Triadis Floice.

2. Gliding Federation of Australia approval document for:
miniOZ
OzFlarm

------------------

These National Approval Documents were drawn up together with the IGC
GFA Committee, in accordance with Sporting Code rules that ask for
draft documents to be sent to GFAC so that approval documents can
follow a common format wherever possible (examples are on the gliding/
position_recorders web page), and also so that compliance with the
Sporting Code rules for IGC Position Recorders can be ensured. The
Sporting Code rules for IGC Position Recorders can be viewed
at:www.fai.org/gliding/system/files/SC3_refs_PR.pdf

Finally, as is stated on web page www.fai.org/gliding/GNSS , an IGC
Position Recorder is a stand-alone GPS unit (different from an IGC-
approved flight recorder) which may be used for position (Lat/Long)
evidence for silver and gold flights only, under special rules given
in the Appendix to Chapter 4 of Section 3 of the FAI Sporting Code.

Regards to all and good soaring in 2010,

----

Ian Strachan
Chairman IGC GFA Committee

[soarpilot]

On Feb 16, 4:53*am, Ian Strachan > wrote:
> Dear Friends,
>
> I am pleased to announce that a new approval document for an IGC
> Position Recorder has been issued by the Gliding Federation of
> Australia for flights under its jurisdiction, after discussion with
> the IGC GNSS Flight Recorder Approval Committee (GFAC). *The IGC
> Position Recorder is a new category of recording device, introduced on
> 1 October 2009 with the latest update to the Sporting Code for
> gliding.
>
> The Australian Approval is dated 15 February 2010 and is for the
> flyWithCE Recorder, manufactured by Uro Podlogar s.p., Ulica Lojzeta
> Hrovata 9, 4000 Kranj, Slovenia (www.flyWithCE.com).
>
> The Approval Document issued by the Gliding Federation of Australia
> can be viewed at:
>
> www.fai.org/gliding/position_recorders
>
> under "The Gliding Federation of Australia"
> and "Approval Document: flyWithCE".
>
> ------------------
>
> Other National Gliding Authorities might look at the Position Recorder
> approval documents that are available on the gliding/
> position_recorders web site, and consider whether they wish to issue
> their own versions.
>
> The two existing approval documents for IGC Position Recorders are:
>
> 1. *Fédération Française de Vol à Voile approval document (in French
> and English) for Flarm-
> equipped devices that have outputs in the IGC file format. *These
> include:
>
> * * *Ediatec ECW100,
> * * *LXN Red Box Flarm and Mini Box Flarm,
> * * *Swift Avionics MiniOz and OzFlarm,
> * * *Swiss Flarm after 1 January 2005,
> * * *Triadis Floice.
>
> 2. *Gliding Federation of Australia approval document for:
> * * *miniOZ
> * * *OzFlarm
>
> ------------------
>
> These National Approval Documents were drawn up together with the IGC
> GFA Committee, in accordance with Sporting Code rules that ask for
> draft documents to be sent to GFAC so that approval documents can
> follow a common format wherever possible (examples are on the gliding/
> position_recorders web page), and also so that compliance with the
> Sporting Code rules for IGC Position Recorders can be ensured. The
> Sporting Code rules for IGC Position Recorders can be viewed
> at:www.fai.org/gliding/system/files/SC3_refs_PR.pdf
>
> Finally, as is stated on web pagewww.fai.org/gliding/GNSS, an IGC
> Position Recorder is a stand-alone GPS unit (different from an IGC-
> approved flight recorder) which may be used for position (Lat/Long)
> evidence for silver and gold flights only, under special rules given
> in the Appendix to Chapter 4 of Section 3 of the FAI Sporting Code.
>
> Regards to all and good soaring in 2010,
>
> ----
>
> Ian Strachan
> Chairman IGC GFA Committee
>

One can only hope that these recorders come to somewhat of a realistic
price. The retail of these units we must use is a rediculous sum to
pay for a piece of equipment so basic. I can only hope some
electronics entrepeneur with the assets comes up with a piece of gear
that will undersale the fat cats, but who am I kidding? Politics will
squash such a rebel.

[Papa3]

On Feb 17, 9:02*am, soarpilot > wrote:
> On Feb 16, 4:53*am, Ian Strachan > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dear Friends,
>
> > I am pleased to announce that a new approval document for an IGC
> > Position Recorder has been issued by the Gliding Federation of
> > Australia for flights under its jurisdiction, after discussion with
> > the IGC GNSS Flight Recorder Approval Committee (GFAC). *The IGC
> > Position Recorder is a new category of recording device, introduced on
> > 1 October 2009 with the latest update to the Sporting Code for
> > gliding.
>
> > The Australian Approval is dated 15 February 2010 and is for the
> > flyWithCE Recorder, manufactured by Uro Podlogar s.p., Ulica Lojzeta
> > Hrovata 9, 4000 Kranj, Slovenia (www.flyWithCE.com).
>
> > The Approval Document issued by the Gliding Federation of Australia
> > can be viewed at:
>
> >www.fai.org/gliding/position_recorders
>
> > under "The Gliding Federation of Australia"
> > and "Approval Document: flyWithCE".
>
> > ------------------
>
> > Other National Gliding Authorities might look at the Position Recorder
> > approval documents that are available on the gliding/
> > position_recorders web site, and consider whether they wish to issue
> > their own versions.
>
> > The two existing approval documents for IGC Position Recorders are:
>
> > 1. *Fédération Française de Vol à Voile approval document (in French
> > and English) for Flarm-
> > equipped devices that have outputs in the IGC file format. *These
> > include:
>
> > * * *Ediatec ECW100,
> > * * *LXN Red Box Flarm and Mini Box Flarm,
> > * * *Swift Avionics MiniOz and OzFlarm,
> > * * *Swiss Flarm after 1 January 2005,
> > * * *Triadis Floice.
>
> > 2. *Gliding Federation of Australia approval document for:
> > * * *miniOZ
> > * * *OzFlarm
>
> > ------------------
>
> > These National Approval Documents were drawn up together with the IGC
> > GFA Committee, in accordance with Sporting Code rules that ask for
> > draft documents to be sent to GFAC so that approval documents can
> > follow a common format wherever possible (examples are on the gliding/
> > position_recorders web page), and also so that compliance with the
> > Sporting Code rules for IGC Position Recorders can be ensured. The
> > Sporting Code rules for IGC Position Recorders can be viewed
> > at:www.fai.org/gliding/system/files/SC3_refs_PR.pdf
>
> > Finally, as is stated on web pagewww.fai.org/gliding/GNSS, an IGC
> > Position Recorder is a stand-alone GPS unit (different from an IGC-
> > approved flight recorder) which may be used for position (Lat/Long)
> > evidence for silver and gold flights only, under special rules given
> > in the Appendix to Chapter 4 of Section 3 of the FAI Sporting Code.
>
> > Regards to all and good soaring in 2010,
>
> > ----
>
> > Ian Strachan
> > Chairman IGC GFA Committee
> >
>
> One can only hope that these recorders come to somewhat of a realistic
> price. *The retail of these units we must use is a rediculous sum to
> pay for a piece of equipment so basic. *I can only hope some
> electronics entrepeneur with the assets comes up with a piece of gear
> that will undersale the fat cats, but who am I kidding? *Politics will
> squash such a rebel.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Since we're currently putting the guidelines together in the US on
this same topic, I'd be interested in your thoughts on a magic
number... what's the "realistic price" that a GPS Position Recorder
should cost?

Erik Mann
SSA FAI Badge&Record Committee

[Darryl Ramm]

On Feb 17, 6:02*am, soarpilot > wrote:
> On Feb 16, 4:53*am, Ian Strachan > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dear Friends,
>
> > I am pleased to announce that a new approval document for an IGC
> > Position Recorder has been issued by the Gliding Federation of
> > Australia for flights under its jurisdiction, after discussion with
> > the IGC GNSS Flight Recorder Approval Committee (GFAC). *The IGC
> > Position Recorder is a new category of recording device, introduced on
> > 1 October 2009 with the latest update to the Sporting Code for
> > gliding.
>
> > The Australian Approval is dated 15 February 2010 and is for the
> > flyWithCE Recorder, manufactured by Uro Podlogar s.p., Ulica Lojzeta
> > Hrovata 9, 4000 Kranj, Slovenia (www.flyWithCE.com).
>
> > The Approval Document issued by the Gliding Federation of Australia
> > can be viewed at:
>
> >www.fai.org/gliding/position_recorders
>
> > under "The Gliding Federation of Australia"
> > and "Approval Document: flyWithCE".
>
> > ------------------
>
> > Other National Gliding Authorities might look at the Position Recorder
> > approval documents that are available on the gliding/
> > position_recorders web site, and consider whether they wish to issue
> > their own versions.
>
> > The two existing approval documents for IGC Position Recorders are:
>
> > 1. *Fédération Française de Vol à Voile approval document (in French
> > and English) for Flarm-
> > equipped devices that have outputs in the IGC file format. *These
> > include:
>
> > * * *Ediatec ECW100,
> > * * *LXN Red Box Flarm and Mini Box Flarm,
> > * * *Swift Avionics MiniOz and OzFlarm,
> > * * *Swiss Flarm after 1 January 2005,
> > * * *Triadis Floice.
>
> > 2. *Gliding Federation of Australia approval document for:
> > * * *miniOZ
> > * * *OzFlarm
>
> > ------------------
>
> > These National Approval Documents were drawn up together with the IGC
> > GFA Committee, in accordance with Sporting Code rules that ask for
> > draft documents to be sent to GFAC so that approval documents can
> > follow a common format wherever possible (examples are on the gliding/
> > position_recorders web page), and also so that compliance with the
> > Sporting Code rules for IGC Position Recorders can be ensured. The
> > Sporting Code rules for IGC Position Recorders can be viewed
> > at:www.fai.org/gliding/system/files/SC3_refs_PR.pdf
>
> > Finally, as is stated on web pagewww.fai.org/gliding/GNSS, an IGC
> > Position Recorder is a stand-alone GPS unit (different from an IGC-
> > approved flight recorder) which may be used for position (Lat/Long)
> > evidence for silver and gold flights only, under special rules given
> > in the Appendix to Chapter 4 of Section 3 of the FAI Sporting Code.
>
> > Regards to all and good soaring in 2010,
>
> > ----
>
> > Ian Strachan
> > Chairman IGC GFA Committee
> >
>
> One can only hope that these recorders come to somewhat of a realistic
> price. *The retail of these units we must use is a rediculous sum to
> pay for a piece of equipment so basic. *I can only hope some
> electronics entrepeneur with the assets comes up with a piece of gear
> that will undersale the fat cats, but who am I kidding? *Politics will
> squash such a rebel.

Say what? This is a ~$120 or so device (assuming the W&W introductory
price). The IGC position recorder effort is an attempt to lower the
costs you are complaining about. Pilots always have the possibility of
putting together a PDA or PNA based system, including using free
software to act as flight recorders for OLC (but not badges/records).
Prices for those start ~$100 or so.

But given some of the limitations for badges and records, I suspect a
better answer for many clubs would be to share a full portable IGC
recorder for those attempts. And anybody who thinks they can design
and manufacture specialized devices for a small worldwide market, put
it though IGC certification, and do so more competitively than the
number of IGC flight recorder manufacturers out there - then do it!
You know, all that free market type stuff...

Darryl

[urosp]

My intention was not to compete directly with certified flight
recorders. If you think for what most pilots need flight recorder you
will see that most of them will fly just for fun, some of them will
post flights on OLC and even less will fly on competitions. And for
all those pilots device like flyWithCE Flight Recorders is an option
which is almost 5 times cheaper than the fully certified flight
records. Maybe nobody is mentioning one of the important points –
hardware and software must be simple to use. And flyWithCE Flight
Recorder and Logbook this certainly is.

As for the price – I believe that with 119 USD (or 89 EUR) for out of
the box solution is very affordable. You can search for the device and
then search for appropriate software. Then most likely you will use
one program to download the data and another program to change the
data to IGC. flyWithCE Logbook simplifies this and adds several
additional features.

At the end I would like to mention another thing. And this is true not
only for me, but also for anyone else out there writing glider
software. When you buy license you also make sure that this developer
will support you and will also work on next version. With free
software there is much less guarantee.

Best regards

Uros
www.flywithce.com

[cfinn]

One thing that hsn't really been mentioned is the requirement that you
also have a barograph on board for badges and records if you use a
position recorder instead of a flight recorder. Judy, The Badge Lady,
verified the requirement during her presentation at the SSA
Convention. The barograph must also be calibrated. If you alredy have
a barograph or can find a cheap used one, the cost would be low. If
you had to buy a new one at $350-$600, it wouldn't make sense. The
total cost would approach an approved flight recorder.

Charlie

[Grider Pirate]

On Feb 17, 12:37*pm, cfinn > wrote:
> One thing that hsn't really been mentioned is the requirement that you
> also have a barograph on board for badges and records if you use a
> position recorder instead of a flight recorder. Judy, The Badge Lady,
> verified the requirement during her presentation at the SSA
> Convention. The barograph must also be calibrated. If you alredy have
> a barograph or can find a cheap used one, the cost would be low. If
> you had to buy a new one at $350-$600, it wouldn't make sense. The
> total cost would approach an approved flight recorder.
>
> Charlie

Thankfully, there should be a good supply of used Barographs available
these days. ;-)

[Tim Mara]

we offer the FlyWithCE recorder for only $119.00
I think this is already pretty "affordable"!
tim
--
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com


> Ian Strachan
> Chairman IGC GFA Committee
>

One can only hope that these recorders come to somewhat of a realistic
price. The retail of these units we must use is a rediculous sum to
pay for a piece of equipment so basic. I can only hope some
electronics entrepeneur with the assets comes up with a piece of gear
that will undersale the fat cats, but who am I kidding? Politics will
squash such a rebel.

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4875 (20100217) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com





__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4875 (20100217) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

[Eric Greenwell]

Grider Pirate wrote:
> On Feb 17, 12:37 pm, cfinn > wrote:
>
>> One thing that hsn't really been mentioned is the requirement that you
>> also have a barograph on board for badges and records if you use a
>> position recorder instead of a flight recorder. Judy, The Badge Lady,
>> verified the requirement during her presentation at the SSA
>> Convention. The barograph must also be calibrated. If you alredy have
>> a barograph or can find a cheap used one, the cost would be low. If
>> you had to buy a new one at $350-$600, it wouldn't make sense. The
>> total cost would approach an approved flight recorder.
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>
> Thankfully, there should be a good supply of used Barographs available
> these days. ;-)
>
Not my Replogle! It sits next to my Dynair Sky-515 and TR-10XA
transceivers in my "soaring museum". It's such a lovely design, I'm not
getting rid of it, even though I never want to use it again.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)

- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Jan/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

[soarpilot]

On Feb 17, 4:25*pm, "Tim Mara" > wrote:
> we offer the FlyWithCE recorder for only $119.00
> I think this is already pretty "affordable"!
> tim
> --
> Please visit the Wings & Wheels website atwww.wingsandwheels.com
>
> > Ian Strachan
> > Chairman IGC GFA Committee
> >
>
> One can only hope that these recorders come to somewhat of a realistic
> price. *The retail of these units we must use is a rediculous sum to
> pay for a piece of equipment so basic. *I can only hope some
> electronics entrepeneur with the assets comes up with a piece of gear
> that will undersale the fat cats, but who am I kidding? *Politics will
> squash such a rebel.
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
> database 4875 (20100217) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4875 (20100217) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com

My prior post regarding affordability supports the fact that the Fly
with CE is VERY affordable. I was not referencing its cost at all,
but the cost of the other devices. I do carry an Ipaq with freeware
and a blue tooth GPS, great system. As far as the "resignation" that
recorders must be as expensive as they are, I can only think how
totally inisde the box that resignation and thinking are. Tim, your
offerings are superb and you have always offered top to bottom of all
things soaring, while catering to the frugal fliers such as I with the
same vigor as you offer to the "higher end" pilots. Continuing to
present affordable products will open the doors to many more sailplane
pilots, a thing we must do. Thank you.

[soarpilot]

On Feb 17, 12:26*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Feb 17, 6:02*am, soarpilot > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 16, 4:53*am, Ian Strachan > wrote:
>
> > > Dear Friends,
>
> > > I am pleased to announce that a new approval document for an IGC
> > > Position Recorder has been issued by the Gliding Federation of
> > > Australia for flights under its jurisdiction, after discussion with
> > > the IGC GNSS Flight Recorder Approval Committee (GFAC). *The IGC
> > > Position Recorder is a new category of recording device, introduced on
> > > 1 October 2009 with the latest update to the Sporting Code for
> > > gliding.
>
> > > The Australian Approval is dated 15 February 2010 and is for the
> > > flyWithCE Recorder, manufactured by Uro Podlogar s.p., Ulica Lojzeta
> > > Hrovata 9, 4000 Kranj, Slovenia (www.flyWithCE.com).
>
> > > The Approval Document issued by the Gliding Federation of Australia
> > > can be viewed at:
>
> > >www.fai.org/gliding/position_recorders
>
> > > under "The Gliding Federation of Australia"
> > > and "Approval Document: flyWithCE".
>
> > > ------------------
>
> > > Other National Gliding Authorities might look at the Position Recorder
> > > approval documents that are available on the gliding/
> > > position_recorders web site, and consider whether they wish to issue
> > > their own versions.
>
> > > The two existing approval documents for IGC Position Recorders are:
>
> > > 1. *Fédération Française de Vol à Voile approval document (in French
> > > and English) for Flarm-
> > > equipped devices that have outputs in the IGC file format. *These
> > > include:
>
> > > * * *Ediatec ECW100,
> > > * * *LXN Red Box Flarm and Mini Box Flarm,
> > > * * *Swift Avionics MiniOz and OzFlarm,
> > > * * *Swiss Flarm after 1 January 2005,
> > > * * *Triadis Floice.
>
> > > 2. *Gliding Federation of Australia approval document for:
> > > * * *miniOZ
> > > * * *OzFlarm
>
> > > ------------------
>
> > > These National Approval Documents were drawn up together with the IGC
> > > GFA Committee, in accordance with Sporting Code rules that ask for
> > > draft documents to be sent to GFAC so that approval documents can
> > > follow a common format wherever possible (examples are on the gliding/
> > > position_recorders web page), and also so that compliance with the
> > > Sporting Code rules for IGC Position Recorders can be ensured. The
> > > Sporting Code rules for IGC Position Recorders can be viewed
> > > at:www.fai.org/gliding/system/files/SC3_refs_PR.pdf
>
> > > Finally, as is stated on web pagewww.fai.org/gliding/GNSS, an IGC
> > > Position Recorder is a stand-alone GPS unit (different from an IGC-
> > > approved flight recorder) which may be used for position (Lat/Long)
> > > evidence for silver and gold flights only, under special rules given
> > > in the Appendix to Chapter 4 of Section 3 of the FAI Sporting Code.
>
> > > Regards to all and good soaring in 2010,
>
> > > ----
>
> > > Ian Strachan
> > > Chairman IGC GFA Committee
> > >
>
> > One can only hope that these recorders come to somewhat of a realistic
> > price. *The retail of these units we must use is a rediculous sum to
> > pay for a piece of equipment so basic. *I can only hope some
> > electronics entrepeneur with the assets comes up with a piece of gear
> > that will undersale the fat cats, but who am I kidding? *Politics will
> > squash such a rebel.
>
> Say what? This is a ~$120 or so device (assuming the W&W introductory
> price). The IGC position recorder effort is an attempt to lower the
> costs you are complaining about. Pilots always have the possibility of
> putting together a PDA or PNA based system, including using free
> software to act as flight recorders for OLC (but not badges/records).
> Prices for those start ~$100 or so.
>
> But given some of the limitations for badges and records, I suspect a
> better answer for many clubs would be to share a full portable IGC
> recorder for those attempts. And anybody who thinks they can design
> and manufacture specialized devices for a small worldwide market, put
> it though IGC certification, and do so more competitively than the
> number of IGC flight recorder manufacturers out there - then do it!
> You know, all that free market type stuff...
>
> Darryl- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Darryl,

I am applauding the cost of this device, not distressed by it. The
higher costs of other systems is my concern. Free market indeed ...

I currently use XC Soar, an Ipaq 3900x and Blue Tooth GPS, so yes that
is a great venue and works very well. I also use an old EW B logger.
I only wish to see the free market come up with a less expensive
venue .. we all can hope and not necessarily have to engineer and
market what it is we hope for ...

[Ian Strachan]

On Feb 17, 8:37*pm, cfinn > wrote:

> One thing that hsn't really been mentioned is the requirement that you
> also have a barograph on board for badges and records if you use a
> position recorder instead of a flight recorder.

That is only so if the Position Recorder does not have its own
pressure altitude sensor.

However, there is also a range of recorders (below the level of IGC-
approved Flight Recorders), that DO have a pressure altitude sensor
that can be calibrated to the ICAO ISA, and where altitude to the ICAO
ISA appears in the IGC file that is downloaded.

For instance, the French Position Recorder approval document lists
seven such devices, see:

www.fai.org/gliding/system/files/FFVV_appr_Flarm.pdf (French version
first, then English)

and the Australian document for OzFlarm lists two:
www.fai.org/gliding/system/files/GFA_appr_OzFlarm_minOz.pdf

There is also an Australian document on pressure altitude calibrations
of pre-IGC-approved Flarm devices, using a method that was discovered
by GFAC and does not require an update to these pre-IGC-approved Flarm
devices:
www.fai.org/gliding/system/files/GFA_calibration_guidelines.pdf

Other National Gliding Authorities can look at the above documents and
decide whether they wish to produce their own versions for flights
under their jurisdiction.

Hope this clarification helps, although all the rules and procedures
for IGC Position Recorders are at: www.fai.org/gliding/position_recorders

Ian Strachan

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

I am very much in favor of the idea to make it possible to use lower cost
units.

However, I fear that passing the responsibility for approving units down to
each country is making this all very complicated - which is unfortunate.

Paul Remde

"Ian Strachan" > wrote in message
...
On Feb 17, 8:37 pm, cfinn > wrote:

> One thing that hsn't really been mentioned is the requirement that you
> also have a barograph on board for badges and records if you use a
> position recorder instead of a flight recorder.

That is only so if the Position Recorder does not have its own
pressure altitude sensor.

However, there is also a range of recorders (below the level of IGC-
approved Flight Recorders), that DO have a pressure altitude sensor
that can be calibrated to the ICAO ISA, and where altitude to the ICAO
ISA appears in the IGC file that is downloaded.

For instance, the French Position Recorder approval document lists
seven such devices, see:

www.fai.org/gliding/system/files/FFVV_appr_Flarm.pdf (French version
first, then English)

and the Australian document for OzFlarm lists two:
www.fai.org/gliding/system/files/GFA_appr_OzFlarm_minOz.pdf

There is also an Australian document on pressure altitude calibrations
of pre-IGC-approved Flarm devices, using a method that was discovered
by GFAC and does not require an update to these pre-IGC-approved Flarm
devices:
www.fai.org/gliding/system/files/GFA_calibration_guidelines.pdf

Other National Gliding Authorities can look at the above documents and
decide whether they wish to produce their own versions for flights
under their jurisdiction.

Hope this clarification helps, although all the rules and procedures
for IGC Position Recorders are at: www.fai.org/gliding/position_recorders

Ian Strachan

[noel.wade]

Just a quick opinion (i.e. I'm dodging doing real work):

While I agree with some folks that this isn't a revolution on its own,
I view it as a good "first step" towards using pure-GPS units for
badges and competitions. There are articles out there already that
explain (better than I can) how GPS-derived altitude isn't really
"worse" than using a pressure-based altitude-sensor. Given the
affordability and reliability of modern GPS units (as well as the lack
of a pressure system to calibrate), I think its a good system/standard
to move toward. If folks want an altitude sensor for major records, I
can concede that. But for simple badges and competitions I don't see
the need.

--Noel

[Paul Remde]

Hi Noel,

Agreed!

Paul Remde

"noel.wade" > wrote in message
...
> Just a quick opinion (i.e. I'm dodging doing real work):
>
> While I agree with some folks that this isn't a revolution on its own,
> I view it as a good "first step" towards using pure-GPS units for
> badges and competitions. There are articles out there already that
> explain (better than I can) how GPS-derived altitude isn't really
> "worse" than using a pressure-based altitude-sensor. Given the
> affordability and reliability of modern GPS units (as well as the lack
> of a pressure system to calibrate), I think its a good system/standard
> to move toward. If folks want an altitude sensor for major records, I
> can concede that. But for simple badges and competitions I don't see
> the need.
>
> --Noel
>

[Ian Strachan]

On Feb 18, 9:03*pm, "Paul Remde" > wrote:

> I am very much in favor of the idea to make it possible to use lower cost
> units. However, I fear that passing the responsibility for approving units down to
> each country is making this all very complicated - which is unfortunate.

However, in accordance with current Sporting Code procedures, the IGC
GFA Committee is "in the loop" as a collecting point for Position
Recorder information, for checking that the Sporting Code rules for
the devices proposed are indeed followed, for recommending standard
Approval Document formats (as on the IGC Position Recorder web page)
and finally, to put the agreed Approval Documents on the IGC PR Web
page.

That is what happens at the moment, but the annual IGC Plenary meeting
is from 5-6 March and the PR situation will be discussed. Maybe some
changes will be made.

For instance, the situation could be simplified. Particular IGC
Position Recorder Approval documents could be turned into universal
Approvals without the need for many national bodies to copy the same
document. These could be published by GFAC in the same way as the
higher-level IGC-approval documents for secure flight recorders. Such
documents should conform to the format on the IGC PR web page, and it
should also be clear how the equipment concerned complies with the
provisions of the Sporting Code for PRs.

In the other direction, there is also a resolution on the IGC agenda
from a National Body to the effect that GFAC should be taken out of
the loop, and that National bodies should have complete freedom to
issue Position Recorder approvals without any co-ordination by an IGC
body. Or interference, if you take that view!

What do people think of these points, or any other aspect of the new
IGC Position Recorder procedures? They have only been in since 1
October 2009, so we are all learning!

BTW, the IGC Plenary agenda is available at: http://www.fai.org/gliding/igc_plenary10

Ian Strachan

[soarpilot]

On Feb 18, 6:59*pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
> Just a quick opinion (i.e. I'm dodging doing real work):
>
> While I agree with some folks that this isn't a revolution on its own,
> I view it as a good "first step" towards using pure-GPS units for
> badges and competitions. *There are articles out there already that
> explain (better than I can) how GPS-derived altitude isn't really
> "worse" than using a pressure-based altitude-sensor. *Given the
> affordability and reliability of modern GPS units (as well as the lack
> of a pressure system to calibrate), I think its a good system/standard
> to move toward. *If folks want an altitude sensor for major records, I
> can concede that. *But for simple badges and competitions I don't see
> the need.
>
> --Noel

Thank you Noel for putting this into a frame of logic and
practicality.