Licensing order

[Matt[_4_]]

Hi all,
I've been looking into getting my private pilot's license. I've taken
test flights in a cessna (172SP) and a glider (GROB 103). I really
liked the glider, but I also like the benefits of the private.

What order would be best to get both licenses? Should I get a private
first with a glider addon or go for the glider first and work toward
the private?

Also, would getting a private be worthwhile even if I mostly fly
gliders?

thanks,
Matt

[Paul Remde]

Hi Matt,

I received my glider license first. I later did some power flying and found
that none (or nearly none) of the glider time could be used toward my power
rating. Therefore, if you are sure you want both in the long run, it may
make sense to get your power rating first.

However, I much prefer flying gliders and never finished my power rating. I
will do that someday, but for now I fly only gliders. I enjoy the
challenges offered by soaring much more than the challenges offered by power
flying. But I did enjoy flying power planes.

There are lessons learned while flying power planes which are good to have
when flying gliders. For example, I learned a lot more about radio
communications while flying power planes.

I hope you enjoy flying as much as I do.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde

"Matt" > wrote in message
...
> Hi all,
> I've been looking into getting my private pilot's license. I've taken
> test flights in a cessna (172SP) and a glider (GROB 103). I really
> liked the glider, but I also like the benefits of the private.
>
> What order would be best to get both licenses? Should I get a private
> first with a glider addon or go for the glider first and work toward
> the private?
>
> Also, would getting a private be worthwhile even if I mostly fly
> gliders?
>
> thanks,
> Matt

[ken]

If I had the resources to do it again, I might start with power and move
to glider. The breadth of knowledge required for an SEL rating is
broader, while just as arguably the depth of knowledge to fly a glider
(well) is ... well... deeper. As far as the certification process goes,
a lot transfers from SEL to G but not the other way around.

So, if you want a broader aviation knowledge base and the flexibility to
fly the club's tow plane ;-) AND you have the resources: SEL then G. If
sailplanes is just where it's at for you, then get the glider ticket and
spend the extra time and money learning to thermal. :-)

IMHO.

--ken


In article
>,
Matt > wrote:

> Hi all,
> I've been looking into getting my private pilot's license. I've taken
> test flights in a cessna (172SP) and a glider (GROB 103). I really
> liked the glider, but I also like the benefits of the private.
>
> What order would be best to get both licenses? Should I get a private
> first with a glider addon or go for the glider first and work toward
> the private?
>
> Also, would getting a private be worthwhile even if I mostly fly
> gliders?
>
> thanks,
> Matt

[[email protected]]

On Mar 15, 8:12*pm, ken > wrote:
> If I had the resources to do it again, I might start with power and move
> to glider. The breadth of knowledge required for an SEL rating is
> broader, while just as arguably the depth of knowledge to fly a glider
> (well) is ... well... deeper. *As far as the certification process goes,
> a lot transfers from SEL to G but not the other way around.
>
> So, if you want a broader aviation knowledge base and the flexibility to
> fly the club's tow plane ;-) AND you have the resources: SEL then G. If
> sailplanes is just where it's at for you, then get the glider ticket and
> spend the extra time and money learning to thermal. :-)
>
> IMHO.
>
> --ken
>
> In article
> >,
>
>
>
> *Matt > wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > I've been looking into getting my private pilot's license. I've taken
> > test flights in a cessna (172SP) and a glider (GROB 103). I really
> > liked the glider, but I also like the benefits of the private.
>
> > What order would be best to get both licenses? Should I get a private
> > first with a glider addon or go for the glider first and work toward
> > the private?
>
> > Also, would getting a private be worthwhile even if I mostly fly
> > gliders?
>
> > thanks,
> > Matt- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

A Private pilot certificate is just that. A majority of the knowledge
you would need for both is required for either one.
That said, in gliding there will be a, in my experience, an increased
level of attention on basic airmanship- just flying the aircraft very
well. The current emphasis, which I see in my students who have done
both, is on radios, procedures, and a lot of stuff which, is
important, but commonly at the expense of being a really good stick
and rudder pilot. One of my teenage students recently added her
airplane rating to her private certificate. It really wasn't that hard
for her at all.
Probably the most important reason for you to go one way or the other,
is which one will get your heart pumping and also make you want to
pick up the books and study.
Good luck and have fun.
UH

[BT[_3_]]

First off, they are both Private Pilot Certificates.. whether you are rated
for Airplane or Glider.
So saying you like the benefits of the "private" does not make sense.
Saying you like the benefits of flying an airplane (or powered aircraft)
does make sense.

I realize you are new to the game.
If you are wanting to do both, it matters not which you do first.
Getting a powered aircraft (Airplane) rating first may make the glider
certificate easier later.
Getting the Glider Private Pilot certificate first may take longer to
accomplish, but as another posted, not much of the glider time can count
towards the airplane time requirements. But the learning will be quicker in
the other, which ever you do first.

Welcome aboard.

BT

"Matt" > wrote in message
...
> Hi all,
> I've been looking into getting my private pilot's license. I've taken
> test flights in a cessna (172SP) and a glider (GROB 103). I really
> liked the glider, but I also like the benefits of the private.
>
> What order would be best to get both licenses? Should I get a private
> first with a glider addon or go for the glider first and work toward
> the private?
>
> Also, would getting a private be worthwhile even if I mostly fly
> gliders?
>
> thanks,
> Matt

[Guy[_7_]]

Dude!!!
You are getting a Private Pilot Certificate in either case!

However, I would suggest completing your certificate by getting the
power rating. I think you will have a much better understanding and
feel for airspace issues by completing the power rating. The glider
add-on will make you a much better stick and rudder pilot.

I think one of the problems we are having in the glider community with
regards to transponders and talking with airspace controllers and
towers is that many glider pilots never got comfortable with those
issues by flying power.

Besides, after listening to the constant drone of the engine and the
cryptic chatter on the radio while working on the power rating, the
peace and quiet of glider flying will be absolute heaven.

Guy

[JS]

Similar to Guy:
Glider at least to solo. Learn what the wings do.
ASEL to Private. Learn the additional bits. (take a written test)
Glider add-on. (no second written test) Enjoy.
Jim

[Jeff[_12_]]

On Mar 15, 11:54*pm, JS > wrote:
> Similar to Guy:
> Glider at least to solo. Learn what the wings do.
> ASEL to Private. Learn the additional bits. (take a written test)
> Glider add-on. (no second written test) Enjoy.
> Jim

There is another alternative to consider, which some believe
represents the best of both worlds: Get your glider rating then add a
self-launch endorsement, which is considerably easier and not as
expensive to obtain as an SEL rating. Then you can fly regular
sailplanes as well as self-launch sailplanes and touring-style
motorgliders.

I have been flying my Lambada touring motorglider on my Private Pilot
Glider rating and Self-Launch Endorsement for several years now.
Modern lightweight touring motorgliders are equipped with reliable 4-
stroke engines, have a 1000 fpm climb rate and can be equipped for and
are capable of long distance high speed cruising (like an SEL
airplane.) You can also use the engine simply to launch and to cruise
out to the best soaring locations, shut the engine off to soar, then
relight the engine to fly home at the end of the day. And with the
engine off, the Lambada flies like a glider and has reasonable soaring
performance.

And there is another little-known benefit: as a Private Pilot (Glider
rating) with powered experience, you may choose to exercise your Sport
Pilot privileges and fly any Light Sport compliant powered aircraft
(including Cubs, Champs, Evektor Sportstars, etc) with simple logbook
endorsements from qualified instructors, without taking another FAA
written test or flying with an FAA Designated Examiner.

Have Fun !

[nic]

Matt,
Get the glider rating first, then get checked out in a light sport
powered airplane. The transition to light sport is easy and cheap.
You will only need a few hours in the light sport aircraft, you don't
need a written or any check rides, and you can fly without a medical.
If you want to get a private power rating, the light sport time counts
toward the power rating. This is the cheapest way by far to get both
ratings. It will get you in the air quicker and cheaper.

Ed Gaddy

[mattm[_2_]]

On Mar 15, 11:54*pm, JS > wrote:
> Similar to Guy:
> Glider at least to solo. Learn what the wings do.
> ASEL to Private. Learn the additional bits. (take a written test)
> Glider add-on. (no second written test) Enjoy.
> Jim

I went in that order, but before the sport ratings were around.
All the glider flying counted towards the airplane rating hourly
requirements, and I was able to fly the entire flight (with guidance)
from the first time I got in the airplane. However, I had to train
the instructor in where the holes were in my education, so it took
him 20 hours to solo me. Solo work was primarily to get the
required cross country time.

Once I had the airplane rating, I actually used it a couple of times
on business trips. Then, my company changed its policy so that
you couldn't fly yourself on trips anymore. I have flown gliders
exclusively since then. The cost to get the hours the insurance
company wants for me to be able to tow is much too high for
me to bother.

I did learn some important things in the airplane -- how to deal
with complexity, how to navigate, how to deal with ATC. All
those are useful in the glider.

-- Matt

[Brian[_1_]]

My opinion is it depends on you situtation. I think usually it cheaper
and perhaps faster to get the power rating and then and the glider
rating. The exception is if you have a good soaring/gliding club
nearby where you can exchange your time for cost. It may take longer
learning to fly at a club but the cost for getting the glider rating
may be very low.

If you are going to do it strictly through commecial operations then
learning to fly power 1st usually makes the most econmic sense. After
you have your power rating you can add the glider rating in probably
less than a week.

Brian

[[email protected]]

On Mar 16, 4:04*pm, Brian > wrote:
> My opinion is it depends on you situtation. I think usually it cheaper
> and perhaps faster to get the power rating and then and the glider
> rating. The exception is if you have a good soaring/gliding club
> nearby where you can exchange your time for cost. It may take longer
> learning to fly at a club but the cost for getting the glider rating
> may be very low.
>
> If you are going to do it strictly through commecial operations then
> learning to fly power 1st *usually makes the most econmic sense. After
> you have your power rating you can add the glider rating in probably
> less than a week.
>
> Brian

As long as you don't care about learning to do it right.
I've spent years finishing up what the one weekers don't do.
UH

[Westbender]

On Mar 15, 5:23*pm, Matt > wrote:
> Hi all,
> I've been looking into getting my private pilot's license. I've taken
> test flights in a cessna (172SP) and a glider (GROB 103). I really
> liked the glider, but I also like the benefits of the private.
>
> What order would be best to get both licenses? Should I get a private
> first with a glider addon or go for the glider first and work toward
> the private?
>
> Also, would getting a private be worthwhile even if I mostly fly
> gliders?
>
> thanks,
> Matt

A test flight in each is probably not very representative of how
different the two disciplines are. To me, powered flight is almost as
boring as driving a car. Soaring is a completely different kind of
flying. Very challenging and extremely rewarding when you get to x-
country flying. It's economical, "green", quiet, graceful, develops
better flying skills, etc.

Take more flights in each and try to find a pilot to take you on a
cross-country flight in the 103.

[Dean[_2_]]

Matt,

Its more cost efficient to get the power license first and then the
add-on glider rating. You only need 10 solo flights(with a 360 degree
turn) to get a glider add-on rating(no written required). There is no
reason you can't train concurrently. Adding on a power rating is more
work than adding on a glider rating. Good luck and have fun!

Dean

[Mike Schumann]

On 3/15/2010 6:23 PM, Matt wrote:
> Hi all,
> I've been looking into getting my private pilot's license. I've taken
> test flights in a cessna (172SP) and a glider (GROB 103). I really
> liked the glider, but I also like the benefits of the private.
>
> What order would be best to get both licenses? Should I get a private
> first with a glider addon or go for the glider first and work toward
> the private?
>
> Also, would getting a private be worthwhile even if I mostly fly
> gliders?
>
> thanks,
> Matt
If you have your power license and get a glider add on, you won't have
to retake the written test. This is not the case the other way around.

If money is not an object, and you have the time, it's probably faster
to get your private license than a glider license. Generally, you are
less weather dependent flying power. In particular, up north, most
glider operations are shut down for winter. Most FBOs do power
instruction year round.

--
Mike Schumann

[Mike Schumann]

On 3/16/2010 5:43 AM, Jeff wrote:
> On Mar 15, 11:54 pm, > wrote:
>> Similar to Guy:
>> Glider at least to solo. Learn what the wings do.
>> ASEL to Private. Learn the additional bits. (take a written test)
>> Glider add-on. (no second written test) Enjoy.
>> Jim
>
> There is another alternative to consider, which some believe
> represents the best of both worlds: Get your glider rating then add a
> self-launch endorsement, which is considerably easier and not as
> expensive to obtain as an SEL rating. Then you can fly regular
> sailplanes as well as self-launch sailplanes and touring-style
> motorgliders.
>
> I have been flying my Lambada touring motorglider on my Private Pilot
> Glider rating and Self-Launch Endorsement for several years now.
> Modern lightweight touring motorgliders are equipped with reliable 4-
> stroke engines, have a 1000 fpm climb rate and can be equipped for and
> are capable of long distance high speed cruising (like an SEL
> airplane.) You can also use the engine simply to launch and to cruise
> out to the best soaring locations, shut the engine off to soar, then
> relight the engine to fly home at the end of the day. And with the
> engine off, the Lambada flies like a glider and has reasonable soaring
> performance.
>
> And there is another little-known benefit: as a Private Pilot (Glider
> rating) with powered experience, you may choose to exercise your Sport
> Pilot privileges and fly any Light Sport compliant powered aircraft
> (including Cubs, Champs, Evektor Sportstars, etc) with simple logbook
> endorsements from qualified instructors, without taking another FAA
> written test or flying with an FAA Designated Examiner.
>
> Have Fun !
However, this won't permit you to fly any 4 seat aircraft.

--
Mike Schumann

[chasers03]

On Mar 15, 11:54*pm, JS > wrote:
> Similar to Guy:
> Glider at least to solo. Learn what the wings do.
> ASEL to Private. Learn the additional bits. (take a written test)
> Glider add-on. (no second written test) Enjoy.
> Jim

I got the private + instrument first and recently got a glider rating
for my motor glider. In hind site I would have been a much better
pilot ie "knowing what the wings really do", if I had gotten my glider
rating first plus it would have given me the much needed tail dragger
experience. Soooo Glider first and power second or maybe as JS says
to do above.

[Alan[_6_]]

In article > Matt > writes:
>Hi all,
>I've been looking into getting my private pilot's license. I've taken
>test flights in a cessna (172SP) and a glider (GROB 103). I really
>liked the glider, but I also like the benefits of the private.
>
>What order would be best to get both licenses? Should I get a private
>first with a glider addon or go for the glider first and work toward
>the private?
>
>Also, would getting a private be worthwhile even if I mostly fly
>gliders?


Ignoring the sport pilot world for a moment, the certificate for either
is a private. The issue is which order to get the ratings.

I would recommend getting a private, airplane single engine land, first.
You can practice a lot of things at much lower cost (both money and time),
and get a level of comfort in the air. Yes, that 172SP probably costs about
$110/hour to rent, but you don't pay extra for tows.

Looking back at my log, I managed to get 11 landings in 1.2 hours in
a Cessna 150 one day while working on landings. Doing this in a glider
would have been much slower, as well as more expensive. Most other
flight practice is more efficient when one doesn't need to keep getting
tows up to do it a bit at a time.

Then, get some experience in the power plane for a while. The time
and comfort will do you well. It has been said that things all start
to become comfortable and natural around 100 hours (for power pilots
anyway).

If you want to be more precise about your flying, get some instrument
training. You may not care about the rating, but some of the training
will help a lot with precision of flying. There are other ways to do
it, but some good instrument training might save your life someday.

Then, the glider can teach you things you didn't learn before, like
how long wings are different, and other things. It is easier to learn
them in the "short" glider flights once you have experience with the
rest.

Just my opinion.

Alan

[MasterChifa]

Wow, I really appreciate all the feedback!

I currently live in TX, so weather is not an issue (it's been in the
60s lately). What's kinda prompted my question is my location. I live
pretty close to a smaller airport where I can work on my private (with
a large international airport about 10mi away, so it's a good place to
learn airport traffic), while the closest airport with gliders is a
over an hour away.

A few of you mentioned it, and I like the idea. I think I'll work on
both to eventually get the private with glider add-on. I will also be
moving to NC at the end of the year where there's an active glider
club. If I needed to finish the glider, I could finish there.

thanks for your help,
-Matt

[Brian[_1_]]

On Mar 16, 3:03*pm, wrote:
> On Mar 16, 4:04*pm, Brian > wrote:
>
> > My opinion is it depends on you situtation. I think usually it cheaper
> > and perhaps faster to get the power rating and then and the glider
> > rating. The exception is if you have a good soaring/gliding club
> > nearby where you can exchange your time for cost. It may take longer
> > learning to fly at a club but the cost for getting the glider rating
> > may be very low.
>
> > If you are going to do it strictly through commecial operations then
> > learning to fly power 1st *usually makes the most econmic sense. After
> > you have your power rating you can add the glider rating in probably
> > less than a week.
>
> > Brian
>
> As long as you don't care about learning to do it right.
> I've spent years finishing up what the one weekers don't do.
> UH

No Argument there, One week will only teach you how to tow and land
safely. If one is lucky they might get some soaring experience out of
it but perhaps not. One would however meet the PTS requirements and
have a glider rating. Even more than power flying this is just a
license to learn. And there is a lot of learning to be had.

In my situation I am forced to take the path of least financial
resistance or at least the the path with the best cost/benefit ratio.
Typically the problem with learning glider (in the US) 1st is you have
to pay for two pilost and two airplanes while training as opposed
power where you only pay for one airplane and one pilot (flight
instructor) while training.

As mentioned in my post, Gliding Clubs and can skew the economics of
it in favor learning glider 1st. But there are only a limited number
of locations where this is available.

Brian

[[email protected]]

On Mar 15, 6:23*pm, Matt > wrote:
> Hi all,
> I've been looking into getting my private pilot's license. I've taken
> test flights in a cessna (172SP) and a glider (GROB 103). I really
> liked the glider, but I also like the benefits of the private.
>
> What order would be best to get both licenses? Should I get a private
> first with a glider addon or go for the glider first and work toward
> the private?
>
> Also, would getting a private be worthwhile even if I mostly fly
> gliders?
>
> thanks,
> Matt

Matt,

Something that you might consider as far as some of the advice you
have received so far......

It takes on average, realistically, 60 to 80 hours of training in
airplanes to get a private single engine land rating.......Not the 40
hour minimum listed in the FAR's.

If you were to get a glider rating FIRST, and some soaring experience
on top of that, you should realistically cut the airplane training
down, close that minimum 40 hours. That is a huge savings in time
and money, IF you want both ratings. On the other hand, having the
airplane rating, the min time for glider training is very little, but
again not realistic.

Its been my experience that airplane pilots need about 15 training
flights in gliders to solo, then at least another 20 solo flights,
plus some prep flights for the practical. This is for "sharp"
airplane pilots......some take far more training. But that is only to
get the rating by passing the practical. It take a looooooong time to
become a "good" glider pilot.

For comparison, most of my students starting from scratch in gliders
take around 40 training flights, and 40 solo flights.


I completed my airplane add-on in 42 hours, and that was spread out
over several years. I already had commercial glider and a lot of
soaring time.

So to sum up..........An airplane pilot will cut his glider training
in half. A glider pilot can cut his airplane training in half.

Cookie

[[email protected]]

On Mar 17, 9:10*pm, "
> wrote:
> On Mar 15, 6:23*pm, Matt > wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> > I've been looking into getting my private pilot's license. I've taken
> > test flights in a cessna (172SP) and a glider (GROB 103). I really
> > liked the glider, but I also like the benefits of the private.
>
> > What order would be best to get both licenses? Should I get a private
> > first with a glider addon or go for the glider first and work toward
> > the private?
>
> > Also, would getting a private be worthwhile even if I mostly fly
> > gliders?
>
> > thanks,
> > Matt
>
> Matt,
>
> Something that you might consider as far as some of the advice you
> have received so far......
>
> It takes on average, realistically, *60 to 80 hours of training in
> airplanes to get a private single engine land rating.......Not the 40
> hour minimum listed in the FAR's.
>
> If you were to get a glider rating FIRST, and some soaring experience
> on top of that, you should realistically cut the airplane training
> down, close *that minimum 40 hours. * That is a huge savings in time
> and money, IF you want both ratings. *On the other hand, having the
> airplane rating, the min time for glider training is very little, but
> again not realistic.
>
> Its been my experience that airplane pilots need about 15 training
> flights in gliders to solo, then at least another 20 solo flights,
> plus some prep flights for the practical. *This is for "sharp"
> airplane pilots......some take far more training. *But that is only to
> get the rating by passing the practical. *It take a looooooong time to
> become a "good" glider pilot.
>
> For comparison, most of my students starting from scratch in gliders
> take around 40 training flights, and 40 solo flights.
>
> I completed my airplane add-on in 42 hours, and that was spread out
> over several years. *I already had commercial glider and a lot of
> soaring time.
>
> So to sum up..........An airplane pilot will cut his glider training
> in half. * A glider pilot can cut his airplane training in half.
>
> Cookie

This is consistent with what I have observed- well said.
UH

[tomcatvf51]

As a Airplane and Glider CFI I would encourage most people to start out in a Glider, get the private and then move on to the airplane. The hardest student for me is a low time private airplane pilot who does not have many recent hours. I end up having to cover up all the instruments in the glider to get their eyes outside. In particular, students that have got their ticket on a glass airplane seem to spend all their time inside the cockpit. A number of "bad" airplane habits have to be broken. Numerous times now, the low time private airplane pilot takes longer to solo than the person that has never flown before. Plus, they usually have no formation experience. As far as glider pilots moving over to an airplane, they are ready to solo in a few flights, spend most of their time flying cross country and are ready to take the check ride at 40 hours. Some of the glider time counts towards the 40 hours but you really have to dig into Part 61 to figure it out and just so there isn't a conflict with the examiner most of my students get their 40th airplane hour on the flight up the the examiner.

A caveat is for the older first time pilot. My rule of thumb is that it takes about 20 glider flights to solo for someone 20 years old or younger, increasing one flight for every year older than 20 years. My 70 year old student took close to 70 flights to solo and my 45 year old student took around 45 flights. Teenagers are great to instruct, they make a mistake, you show them the correct way and they never forget. So an older first time pilot might be better starting in an airplane with the ability to do landings over and over on the same flight.

Now for someone doing a glider add-on with a lot of aircraft flight time, usually flying the tow light bulb comes on during the second tow and they are ready to solo on the third or fourth flight. Just need to get them using the rudder.

Just my 2 cents worth after instructing in airplanes for 25 years and gliders for 12 years.

- Barry Muhlenberg, CFIG Cloudniners, Morgantown (O03), PA

[Tony V]

Dean wrote:
> Matt,
>
> Its more cost efficient to get the power license first and then the
> add-on glider rating. You only need 10 solo flights(with a 360 degree
> turn) to get a glider add-on rating(no written required).

Yes, and then you'll have a glider rating - but you won't be a glider
pilot. UH has it right, it takes time and experience.

We have a local College whose prime reason for being is to pump out
bodies to fill right seats. Nothing wrong with that. They also have a
Grob 109B or two and all of their graduates get CFI-Gs as well. One
wanted to come and instruct for our (pure glider) club. We had to
decline his offer. Becoming a glider pilot takes time.

Tony V.