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Tony[_5_]
March 23rd 10, 02:20 PM
Seems to me that it's been a while since we had a good brouhaha over
pretakeoff checklists. Most of use use either ABBCCCDDE (or is it
AABBCCDDE? Or ABBBCCCCDDEEFG?) or CBSIFTCB or some other variant. I'm
curious what you use and WHY? What have you added or subtracted to
the "base" checklist to fit your specific glider or operation, or to
prevent problems you have encountered.

I personally use CBSIFTCB in all the gliders I fly. After that is
complete I'm OK hooking up the rope, then I review WET (Wind,
Emergency, Traffic) and give the signal to launch.

Frank Whiteley
March 23rd 10, 02:24 PM
On Mar 23, 8:20*am, Tony > wrote:
> Seems to me that it's been a while since we had a good brouhaha over
> pretakeoff checklists. *Most of use use either ABBCCCDDE (or is it
> AABBCCDDE? Or ABBBCCCCDDEEFG?) or CBSIFTCB or some other variant. *I'm
> curious what you use and WHY? *What have you added or subtracted to
> the "base" checklist to fit your specific glider or operation, or to
> prevent problems you have encountered.
>
> I personally use CBSIFTCB in all the gliders I fly. After that is
> complete I'm OK hooking up the rope, then I review WET (Wind,
> Emergency, Traffic) and give the signal to launch.

Ditto the checklist you use, mostly due to law of primacy.

Frank Whiteley

Grider Pirate
March 23rd 10, 02:31 PM
On Mar 23, 7:24*am, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
> On Mar 23, 8:20*am, Tony > wrote:
>
> > Seems to me that it's been a while since we had a good brouhaha over
> > pretakeoff checklists. *Most of use use either ABBCCCDDE (or is it
> > AABBCCDDE? Or ABBBCCCCDDEEFG?) or CBSIFTCB or some other variant. *I'm
> > curious what you use and WHY? *What have you added or subtracted to
> > the "base" checklist to fit your specific glider or operation, or to
> > prevent problems you have encountered.
>
> > I personally use CBSIFTCB in all the gliders I fly. After that is
> > complete I'm OK hooking up the rope, then I review WET (Wind,
> > Emergency, Traffic) and give the signal to launch.
>
> Ditto the checklist you use, mostly due to law of primacy.
>
> Frank Whiteley

I don't know CBSIFTCB. I use

A ltimiter
B elts
B allast
C ontrols
C anopy
C able
D ivebrakes
D irection (wind)
E mergency plan

... and for landing:

F laps
U ndercarriage
S peed
T rim
A irbrakes
L ook
L and

Nine Bravo Ground
March 23rd 10, 02:38 PM
Good lists.

The only things I've forgotten multiple times are:

Drinking water (sitting on the hose)
Oxygen (main valve closed)
Sunglasses (left in the car)

They won't cause an accident - but the first two require coming back
to land.

9B

Frank Whiteley
March 23rd 10, 02:48 PM
On Mar 23, 8:31*am, Grider Pirate > wrote:
> On Mar 23, 7:24*am, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 23, 8:20*am, Tony > wrote:
>
> > > Seems to me that it's been a while since we had a good brouhaha over
> > > pretakeoff checklists. *Most of use use either ABBCCCDDE (or is it
> > > AABBCCDDE? Or ABBBCCCCDDEEFG?) or CBSIFTCB or some other variant. *I'm
> > > curious what you use and WHY? *What have you added or subtracted to
> > > the "base" checklist to fit your specific glider or operation, or to
> > > prevent problems you have encountered.
>
> > > I personally use CBSIFTCB in all the gliders I fly. After that is
> > > complete I'm OK hooking up the rope, then I review WET (Wind,
> > > Emergency, Traffic) and give the signal to launch.
>
> > Ditto the checklist you use, mostly due to law of primacy.
>
> > Frank Whiteley
>
> I don't know CBSIFTCB. *I use
>
> A ltimiter
> B elts
> B allast
> C ontrols
> C anopy
> C able
> D ivebrakes
> D irection (wind)
> E mergency plan
>
> .. and for landing:
>
> F laps
> U ndercarriage
> S peed
> T rim
> A irbrakes
> L ook
> L and

C ontrols
B allast
S traps
I nstruments
F laps
T rim
C anopy
B rakes

W ater
U ndercarriage
L loose items
F laps
S peed
T rim
A irbrakes
L ook
L and

as the eventual migration from USTALL in the late '70's. Some of the
liturgy of soaring.

Nine Bravo Ground
March 23rd 10, 03:01 PM
On Mar 23, 7:48*am, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
> On Mar 23, 8:31*am, Grider Pirate > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 23, 7:24*am, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 23, 8:20*am, Tony > wrote:
>
> > > > Seems to me that it's been a while since we had a good brouhaha over
> > > > pretakeoff checklists. *Most of use use either ABBCCCDDE (or is it
> > > > AABBCCDDE? Or ABBBCCCCDDEEFG?) or CBSIFTCB or some other variant. *I'm
> > > > curious what you use and WHY? *What have you added or subtracted to
> > > > the "base" checklist to fit your specific glider or operation, or to
> > > > prevent problems you have encountered.
>
> > > > I personally use CBSIFTCB in all the gliders I fly. After that is
> > > > complete I'm OK hooking up the rope, then I review WET (Wind,
> > > > Emergency, Traffic) and give the signal to launch.
>
> > > Ditto the checklist you use, mostly due to law of primacy.
>
> > > Frank Whiteley
>
> > I don't know CBSIFTCB. *I use
>
> > A ltimiter
> > B elts
> > B allast
> > C ontrols
> > C anopy
> > C able
> > D ivebrakes
> > D irection (wind)
> > E mergency plan
>
> > .. and for landing:
>
> > F laps
> > U ndercarriage
> > S peed
> > T rim
> > A irbrakes
> > L ook
> > L and
>
> C ontrols
> B allast
> S traps
> I nstruments
> F laps
> T rim
> C anopy
> B rakes
>
> W ater
> U ndercarriage
> L loose items
> F laps
> S peed
> T rim
> A irbrakes
> L ook
> L and
>
> as the eventual migration from USTALL in the late '70's. *Some of the
> liturgy of soaring.

Does "Land" mean anything beyond the obvious?

9B

Tom[_9_]
March 23rd 10, 03:23 PM
The ABC pre-takeoff checklist came from Schweizer gliders that had the
list posted on the instrument panel.

I remember a CFI revalidation course I presented some years ago, where
I asked the 80 CFIs to write the list on a piece of paper. Doris
checked the results. Not a single instructor got the list correct.

This indicates one of the primary problems: Pilots are not trained to
memorize the list so it can be used in gliders without a posted
checklist.

Our ASK-13 has a factory supplied pre-takeoff checklist with two
items: Close and lock canopy, close and lock dive brakes.

My recent ten-year accident summary indicates 50% of glider fatalities
occurred during the first few seconds of flight, so performing an
adequate pre-takeoff checklist is an important ingredient to flight
safety.

The most common pre-takeoff checklist (English language) is CB-SIFT-
CB.

Most of us have added some letters to this list, inserting a W for
“Wind,”
And an all-important E for “Emergency plan.” This results in the
recommended, CB-SWIFT-CBE. Arguably, this can be considered the basic
universal per-takeoff checklist.

The reality is this checklist is not universally adequate, because our
gliders may have some complexity needing to be checked before takeoff.
The factory-supplied checklist must be used, and takes precedence over
a memorized checklist in case of some important item unique to that
glider.

In addition, there may be items important to check such as the flight
computer, data logger, etc.

My written pre-takeoff checklist is rather extensive (Duo Discus) and
includes the factory items plus essential items like removing my
wallet from my back pocket and unzipping my fly.

For more information about this subject, you might consider a booklet
titled , “Preventing Glider Accidents” or a DVD titled, “Preventing
Launching Accidents” available on our web site: WWW.EGLIDER.ORG

The DVD is especially suited for club safety meetings using a laptop
and projector.

Tom Knauff

Mike Schumann
March 23rd 10, 03:51 PM
I am a big believer in written checklists. There's a big reason the
airlines don't use memorized acronyms.

Mike Schumann

On 3/23/2010 11:23 AM, Tom wrote:
> The ABC pre-takeoff checklist came from Schweizer gliders that had the
> list posted on the instrument panel.
>
> I remember a CFI revalidation course I presented some years ago, where
> I asked the 80 CFIs to write the list on a piece of paper. Doris
> checked the results. Not a single instructor got the list correct.
>
> This indicates one of the primary problems: Pilots are not trained to
> memorize the list so it can be used in gliders without a posted
> checklist.
>
> Our ASK-13 has a factory supplied pre-takeoff checklist with two
> items: Close and lock canopy, close and lock dive brakes.
>
> My recent ten-year accident summary indicates 50% of glider fatalities
> occurred during the first few seconds of flight, so performing an
> adequate pre-takeoff checklist is an important ingredient to flight
> safety.
>
> The most common pre-takeoff checklist (English language) is CB-SIFT-
> CB.
>
> Most of us have added some letters to this list, inserting a W for
> “Wind,”
> And an all-important E for “Emergency plan.” This results in the
> recommended, CB-SWIFT-CBE. Arguably, this can be considered the basic
> universal per-takeoff checklist.
>
> The reality is this checklist is not universally adequate, because our
> gliders may have some complexity needing to be checked before takeoff.
> The factory-supplied checklist must be used, and takes precedence over
> a memorized checklist in case of some important item unique to that
> glider.
>
> In addition, there may be items important to check such as the flight
> computer, data logger, etc.
>
> My written pre-takeoff checklist is rather extensive (Duo Discus) and
> includes the factory items plus essential items like removing my
> wallet from my back pocket and unzipping my fly.
>
> For more information about this subject, you might consider a booklet
> titled , “Preventing Glider Accidents” or a DVD titled, “Preventing
> Launching Accidents” available on our web site: WWW.EGLIDER.ORG
>
> The DVD is especially suited for club safety meetings using a laptop
> and projector.
>
> Tom Knauff
>
>


--
Mike Schumann

Doug Hoffman[_3_]
March 23rd 10, 04:12 PM
On Mar 23, 11:51*am, Mike Schumann >
wrote:
> I am a big believer in written checklists. *There's a big reason the
> airlines don't use memorized acronyms.

Big ditto.

I also have a *written* "leave the house" checklist and a "written"
post-assembly checklist.

RD ( stands for Regards, -Doug ) ;-)

Greg Arnold
March 23rd 10, 04:24 PM
On 3/23/2010 9:12 AM, Doug Hoffman wrote:
> On Mar 23, 11:51 am, Mike >
> wrote:
>> I am a big believer in written checklists. There's a big reason the
>> airlines don't use memorized acronyms.
>
> Big ditto.
>
> I also have a *written* "leave the house" checklist and a "written"
> post-assembly checklist.
>
> RD ( stands for Regards, -Doug ) ;-)


Exactly. There isn't a chance I could remember a memorized checklist.

Do any pilots other than glider pilots use memorized checklists?

Brian[_1_]
March 23rd 10, 04:42 PM
<snip>
>
> Do any pilots other than glider pilots use memorized checklists?

yes, depending on the plane

CIGARTIP
GUMP
and variations there of are the most common ones.

Brian

jcarlyle
March 23rd 10, 04:43 PM
Answering the OP's question, I use before signalling to the wing
runner: Altimeter, Belts, Controls, Cable, Canopy, Divebrakes,
Direction (wind), Dolly, Emergency. Came from flying Schweitzer
products, with a few of my own additions. Before I close the canopy I
also review the written checklist from Rolladen Schneider posted on
the bottom of instrument console - this checklist doesn't stem from
any other check list I've seen in this thread.

-John

On Mar 23, 9:20 am, Tony > wrote:
> Seems to me that it's been a while since we had a good brouhaha over
> pretakeoff checklists. Most of use use either ABBCCCDDE (or is it
> AABBCCDDE? Or ABBBCCCCDDEEFG?) or CBSIFTCB or some other variant. I'm
> curious what you use and WHY? What have you added or subtracted to
> the "base" checklist to fit your specific glider or operation, or to
> prevent problems you have encountered.
>
> I personally use CBSIFTCB in all the gliders I fly. After that is
> complete I'm OK hooking up the rope, then I review WET (Wind,
> Emergency, Traffic) and give the signal to launch.

Tony[_5_]
March 23rd 10, 05:07 PM
OK,

ive often wondered if you asked a room of glider pilots how many A's,
B's, C's, D's, and E's there were in their checklist how many answers
you'd get. Tom's report satisfies my suspiscion. I used to use ABCDE
but I could never remember how many of each. Plus some people used an
A for airbrakes, another uses a B for Brakes and others use a D for
Dive brakes!

So, regardless of the form of checklist, what does RAS suggest be
included in the before takeoff check? Of course it there will be some
variance between different types. Bob Buck talked in one of his books
about "Killer Items" which I think is an appropriate thing to be
looking for right before you hook up to the towplane. So yes you
could have a written checklist that includes taking your wallet out of
your pocket and things like that, but Tom's ASK-13 checklist (canopy
and airbrakes) is an example of the checklist addressing only the
Killer Items. Although I think that it may be a little to the
extreme.

Andy[_1_]
March 23rd 10, 05:47 PM
On Mar 23, 7:20*am, Tony > wrote:
> Seems to me that it's been a while since we had a good brouhaha over
> pretakeoff checklists. *Most of use use either ABBCCCDDE (or is it
> AABBCCDDE? Or ABBBCCCCDDEEFG?) or CBSIFTCB or some other variant. *I'm
> curious what you use and WHY? *What have you added or subtracted to
> the "base" checklist to fit your specific glider or operation, or to
> prevent problems you have encountered.
>
> I personally use CBSIFTCB in all the gliders I fly. After that is
> complete I'm OK hooking up the rope, then I review WET (Wind,
> Emergency, Traffic) and give the signal to launch.

CBSIFTCB E with Flaps always reponded to even if the response is
NONE. Wind is not on my checklist, nor is checking to see if I put my
pants (trousers) and shoes on. How could anyone sitting in a cockpit
waiting to takeoff be unaware of the wind?

The Emergency add on seems to have been replaced in UK by
Eventualities. That observation based on a recent visit to the UK
club where I did my early glider training. Don't know why it changed
but the review of E's doesn't change.

Some people responding here seem to be confusing a pre-takeoff check
list with a flight preparation checklist. I have a pre-pushout
checklist for all the things that would impact my flight if I forgot
them, but that is completely separate from the memorized pre-takeoff
checks. It's before I push out that I check I have my pants on.
(Actually that's not as silly as it sounds - I often prepare for
flying in shorts but prefer to fly in long pants).

Some people like to cite what airline pilots do, thinking they prepare
for takeoff by going though a checklist. They don't. Normally they
do all the preparation and configuration by memory using standard
flows and, after it is all done, then they run the checklist. Also,
the most critical emergency procedures have to be memorized and
executed without a checklist, then the checklist is used to "check" if
time allows.

Andy

Mark Jardini
March 23rd 10, 05:51 PM
Written laminated checklist for all phases of flight. (but i am flying
a self launcher.)

Mark 1AC

Dave White
March 23rd 10, 07:07 PM
I am strongly opposed to memorized pre-flight checklists, because it's
too easy to be distracted or forgetful and miss something important.
I require my students to refer to a printed pre-flight checklist and
complete each step in order, and I use one in my own glider. I
believe that too many accidents have been caused by poor preflight
checklist completion--there are too many accident reports citing poor
checklist discipline as a factor. Preflight is a time when the pilot
can take his/her time to do it right, and refuse to allow any
distractions and not be rushed. That printed checklist is a powerful
tool, and should be used as such, every time!

Inflight, it's a different story. There is too much going on--
clearing, flying, planning--to be burying one's head in the cockpit
and reading a checklist. The pre-maneuver and before landing
checklists must be SIMPLE and memorized. Adding things like "look"
and "land" just garbages them up. Checklists are supposed to be
specific actions to configure the glider or prepare for an event.
Switches, controls, straps, checking the wind and airbrakes all fall
in this category. Doing what we are supposed to be doing does not.

Dave Nadler
March 23rd 10, 07:43 PM
On Mar 23, 10:20*am, Tony > wrote:
> Seems to me that it's been a while since we had a good brouhaha over
> pretakeoff checklists. *Most of use use either ABBCCCDDE (or is it
> AABBCCDDE? Or ABBBCCCCDDEEFG?) or CBSIFTCB or some other variant. *I'm
> curious what you use and WHY? *What have you added or subtracted to
> the "base" checklist to fit your specific glider or operation, or to
> prevent problems you have encountered.
>
> I personally use CBSIFTCB in all the gliders I fly. After that is
> complete I'm OK hooking up the rope, then I review WET (Wind,
> Emergency, Traffic) and give the signal to launch.

Antares 20E has a built-in take-off checklist in the aircraft
computer which works very nicely. The nice German lady
will warn you if the tail dolly is still attached (though most
pilots taxi and don't use the tail dolly) ;-)
Yes, Really ;-)

The O2 I can turn on in the cockpit.
I do use a preparation checklist for things like
water, suntan lotion, etc.

Landing is pretty idiot-proof. The nice German
lady reprimands you for extending the spoilers
prior extending the landing gear ;-)
Yes, Really ;-)

See ya, Dave "YO electric"

PS: Anyone have checklists on their flight computers ?
We've never done this in the SN10...

Tony[_5_]
March 23rd 10, 07:54 PM
On Mar 23, 12:47*pm, Andy > wrote:
> On Mar 23, 7:20*am, Tony > wrote:
>
> > Seems to me that it's been a while since we had a good brouhaha over
> > pretakeoff checklists. *Most of use use either ABBCCCDDE (or is it
> > AABBCCDDE? Or ABBBCCCCDDEEFG?) or CBSIFTCB or some other variant. *I'm
> > curious what you use and WHY? *What have you added or subtracted to
> > the "base" checklist to fit your specific glider or operation, or to
> > prevent problems you have encountered.
>
> > I personally use CBSIFTCB *in all the gliders I fly. After that is
> > complete I'm OK hooking up the rope, then I review WET (Wind,
> > Emergency, Traffic) and give the signal to launch.
>
> CBSIFTCB E with Flaps always reponded to even if the response is
> NONE. *Wind is not on my checklist, nor is checking to see if I put my
> pants (trousers) and shoes on. *How could anyone sitting in a cockpit
> waiting to takeoff be unaware of the wind?
>
> The Emergency add on seems to have been replaced in UK by
> Eventualities. *That observation based on a recent visit to the UK
> club where I did my early glider training. Don't know why it changed
> but the review of E's doesn't change.
>
> Some people responding here seem to be confusing a pre-takeoff check
> list with a flight preparation checklist. I have a pre-pushout
> checklist for all the things that would impact my flight if I forgot
> them, but that is completely separate from the memorized pre-takeoff
> checks. It's before I push out that I check I have my pants on.
> (Actually that's not as silly as it sounds - I often prepare for
> flying in shorts but prefer to fly in long pants).
>
> Some people like to cite what airline pilots do, thinking they prepare
> for takeoff by going though a checklist. *They don't. *Normally they
> do all the preparation and configuration by memory using standard
> flows and, after it is all done, then they run the checklist. *Also,
> the most critical emergency procedures have to be memorized and
> executed without a checklist, then the checklist is used to "check" if
> time allows.
>
> Andy

I am not blissfully unaware of the wind as I arrive at the gliderport
and pull the glider to the runway, but I do like to take the few
seconds to take a glance at the wind sock or yaw string and just
refresh myself on what the wind situation is going to be like for that
particular takeoff.

You've hit on the key difference between a Checklist and a Do-list.
Your description of an airline cockpit is an example of a real
checklist where a task was performed and the list was used to verify
that it was performed. What most of us use in the glider is a Do-list
where we recite the item to be completed and then perform the task.

I think if your pretakeoff checklist is so long that it can't be
memorized then perhaps some of your "pretakeoff" items need to be
moved off the runway. I'm not convinced that sitting on the runway
with the towplane running, ground crew running around, and who knows
what is happening with other traffic in the air, is the best time to
be heads down going through a lengthy printed checklist. The runway
time should be reserved for the "Killer Items". Anything else should
be done before you stage. So, as I asked a few posts ago, what are
the killer items? I use the logic stream that if I forget to do it
then something bad will or can happen. So I check controls to make
sure that nothing is impeding their movement. If i'm flying a glider
with removable ballast I make sure it is removed (for fat me), I make
sure I'm strapped in so i don't go for Mr. Toads Wild Ride, set the
altimeter so that *at a glance* I can determine my altitude AGL, set
flaps and trim so that once i get in the air I know what to expect
from the glider, shut the canopy and LOCK it so that it doesnt blow
off, and check the airbrakes and LOCK them so that bad things dont
happen.

I don't have "hook up the rope" on my before takeoff checklist because
if I forget to hook up the rope, nothing bad will happen except the
towplane will takeoff and ill stay on the runway and people will look
at us funny.

Thats just me though, I'm curious what the rest of RAS thinks.
enjoying the conversation so far!

jcarlyle
March 23rd 10, 09:09 PM
To some extent this discussion boils down to semantics and what glider
you're flying. I could subscribe to calling what you check immediately
before takeoff a "killer list" rather than a pre-takeoff checklist.
After all, these are the last items to be checked before bad things
that can happen suddenly might occur. But what should be on the killer
list? It depends.

If I'm about to fly a club ship that's flown for the last few hours, I
want to make sure it's configured for me and that important
instruments, controls, locking mechanisms and pilot attitude are ready
for flight. Ballast, altimeter, contols, dive brakes, canopy, tail
dolly, and emegency prodedures are on this list. However, my club
encourages the use of a short written checklist which is in the side
pocket, which covers more items than are on the killer list, and I run
thorugh this as I'm waiting for the towplane. I also run through my
ABCCCDDDE memorized list just before I give a thumbs up to the wing
runner, primarily to insure everything was checked and that my head is
ready for flight.

If I'm about to fly my own ship, then I've put in a hour or so of time
rigging, checking, loading and configuring. I've done a critical
assembly check, a positive control check, I've taped the wings,
winglets and tail, I've checked the tire pressure, made sure the
electrical system is functional and that all electrical instruments
are loaded with the correct nav or communication data and functional.
I've put my hat, sunglasses, wallet, phone and food in the side
pocket, and stored the Camelbak in its place. I've talked to the field
manager, gotten a place on the flight line, aligned the plane to the
runway and removed the tail dolly. I turn on the electrical system,
turn on the radio and set it to the field frequency, put the
transponder on standby, turn on the SN10, clear the Volkslogger memory
and turn off its warnings, and set the altimeter to field height. At
this point I run through the LS written checklist on bottom of the
instrument cluster. Then I struggle into the chute, get into the
plane, wiggle until I can reach and fasten the harness belts and
thread the Camelbak hose into position, and put the mike into
position. As the towplane taxis up I do a radio check and request a
tow height. The canopy comes down and is locked, and I inspect the tow
rope condition where it attaches to the Tost rings before I allow hook-
up. At this point the killer items are contols, dive brakes, canopy,
and emegency prodedures. However, I run through my ABCCCDDDE memorized
list to make absolutely sure all important items were checked and that
my head is in the right place for possible trouble just before I give
a thumbs up to the wing runner.

It's possible to pare down the pre-takeoff checklist, or to change to
one that's universal. But what real advantage would this bring? The
two pre-flight checklists commonly used both contain all the killer
items that should absolutely be checked just before flight. And with
repeated use, each checklist has a rhythm that will cause a pilot to
stop if something is missed or out of place. I don't think it really
matters what exactly is on each pilots checklist, so long as it
contains the same items on each and every flight.

-John

On Mar 23, 2:54 pm, Tony > wrote:
> I think if your pretakeoff checklist is so long that it can't be
> memorized then perhaps some of your "pretakeoff" items need to be
> moved off the runway. I'm not convinced that sitting on the runway
> with the towplane running, ground crew running around, and who knows
> what is happening with other traffic in the air, is the best time to
> be heads down going through a lengthy printed checklist. The runway
> time should be reserved for the "Killer Items". Anything else should
> be done before you stage. So, as I asked a few posts ago, what are
> the killer items? I use the logic stream that if I forget to do it
> then something bad will or can happen. So I check controls to make
> sure that nothing is impeding their movement. If i'm flying a glider
> with removable ballast I make sure it is removed (for fat me), I make
> sure I'm strapped in so i don't go for Mr. Toads Wild Ride, set the
> altimeter so that *at a glance* I can determine my altitude AGL, set
> flaps and trim so that once i get in the air I know what to expect
> from the glider, shut the canopy and LOCK it so that it doesnt blow
> off, and check the airbrakes and LOCK them so that bad things dont
> happen.

Tony[_5_]
March 23rd 10, 09:40 PM
On Mar 23, 4:09*pm, jcarlyle > wrote:
> To some extent this discussion boils down to semantics and what glider
> you're flying. I could subscribe to calling what you check immediately
> before takeoff a "killer list" rather than a pre-takeoff checklist.
> After all, these are the last items to be checked before bad things
> that can happen suddenly might occur. But what should be on the killer
> list? It depends.
>
> If I'm about to fly a club ship that's flown for the last few hours, I
> want to make sure it's configured for me and that important
> instruments, controls, locking mechanisms and pilot attitude are ready
> for flight. Ballast, altimeter, contols, dive brakes, canopy, tail
> dolly, and emegency prodedures are on this list. However, my club
> encourages the use of a short written checklist which is in the side
> pocket, which covers more items than are on the killer list, and I run
> thorugh this as I'm waiting for the towplane. I also run through my
> ABCCCDDDE memorized list just before I give a thumbs up to the wing
> runner, primarily to insure everything was checked and that my head is
> ready for flight.
>
> If I'm about to fly my own ship, then I've put in a hour or so of time
> rigging, checking, loading and configuring. I've done a critical
> assembly check, a positive control check, I've taped the wings,
> winglets and tail, I've checked the tire pressure, made sure the
> electrical system is functional and that all electrical instruments
> are loaded with the correct nav or communication data and functional.
> I've put my hat, sunglasses, wallet, phone and food in the side
> pocket, and stored the Camelbak in its place. I've talked to the field
> manager, gotten a place on the flight line, aligned the plane to the
> runway and removed the tail dolly. I turn on the electrical system,
> turn on the radio and set it to the field frequency, put the
> transponder on standby, turn on the SN10, clear the Volkslogger memory
> and turn off its warnings, and set the altimeter to field height. At
> this point I run through the LS written checklist on bottom of the
> instrument cluster. Then I struggle into the chute, get into the
> plane, wiggle until I can reach and fasten the harness belts and
> thread the Camelbak hose into position, and put the mike into
> position. As the towplane taxis up I do a radio check and request a
> tow height. The canopy comes down and is locked, and I inspect the tow
> rope condition where it attaches to the Tost rings before I allow hook-
> up. At this point the killer items are contols, dive brakes, canopy,
> and emegency prodedures. However, I run through my ABCCCDDDE memorized
> list to make absolutely sure all important items were checked and that
> my head is in the right place for possible trouble just before I give
> a thumbs up to the wing runner.
>
> It's possible to pare down the pre-takeoff checklist, or to change to
> one that's universal. But what real advantage would this bring? The
> two pre-flight checklists commonly used both contain all the killer
> items that should absolutely be checked just before flight. And with
> repeated use, each checklist has a rhythm that will cause a pilot to
> stop if something is missed or out of place. I don't think it really
> matters what exactly is on each pilots checklist, so long as it
> contains the same items on each and every flight.


John -

very nice reply and i agree wholeheartedly!

Martin Gregorie[_5_]
March 23rd 10, 10:13 PM
On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 12:54:23 -0700, Tony wrote:

> I am not blissfully unaware of the wind as I arrive at the gliderport
> and pull the glider to the runway, but I do like to take the few
> seconds to take a glance at the wind sock or yaw string and just
> refresh myself on what the wind situation is going to be like for that
> particular takeoff.
>
This is part of the Eventualities in CBSIFTCBE as currently required in
the UK, especially in its winching form. It has several parts. All take
the form of decisions spoken aloud if there's anybody else on board and
mentally if you're flying solo. This makes sure that these decisions are
all fresh in your mind at launch. Decide:

1) that you'll pull off if your wing drops at the start of the launch.
2) your approach speed in case of launch failure.
This is wind dependent, so look at the sock, trees, grass, etc.
3) that if possible you'll land ahead from a launch failure.
4) which way you'll turn if you are too high to land ahead.
This is always downwind and requires a look at the sock.

The same works for aero tow with slight mods.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

BT[_3_]
March 23rd 10, 11:19 PM
Interesting that no one references the recommended checklist as posted in
the FAA Glider Pilots Handbook which surely the DPE might reference if the
glider in which one is taking a check ride does not have its' own published
check lists. Many don't.

Oh.. and that placard found in many Schweizer aircraft... is it required? Is
the glider airworthy if it is missing?
But that's another thread.

BT

"Tony" > wrote in message
...
> Seems to me that it's been a while since we had a good brouhaha over
> pretakeoff checklists. Most of use use either ABBCCCDDE (or is it
> AABBCCDDE? Or ABBBCCCCDDEEFG?) or CBSIFTCB or some other variant. I'm
> curious what you use and WHY? What have you added or subtracted to
> the "base" checklist to fit your specific glider or operation, or to
> prevent problems you have encountered.
>
> I personally use CBSIFTCB in all the gliders I fly. After that is
> complete I'm OK hooking up the rope, then I review WET (Wind,
> Emergency, Traffic) and give the signal to launch.

JJ Sinclair
March 23rd 10, 11:23 PM
When I checked out in the RF-4C my instructor told me to start on the
left and go down the left console across the instrument panel, then
down the right console putting everything where I wanted it for that
flight. I do that today, Radio on, volume up, squelch set, frequency
set.....SN-10 on volume set, alt set, MC set, etc.

Before takeoff I use altimeter, belts, controls, communication (with
tow pilot), cable, canopy, direction (wind), e (emergency). ABCCCCDE

For landing I use wheel, wind, water, traffic, flaps (&/or spoilers),
radio (call entering pattern) WWW.TFR

I'm surprised I'm the only one to mention com-check with tow pilot and
radio call entering the pattern, or don't some believe this is a
killer item? Four pilots in region 11 would strongly disagree if they
were still with us.
JJ


Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 12:54:23 -0700, Tony wrote:
>
> > I am not blissfully unaware of the wind as I arrive at the gliderport
> > and pull the glider to the runway, but I do like to take the few
> > seconds to take a glance at the wind sock or yaw string and just
> > refresh myself on what the wind situation is going to be like for that
> > particular takeoff.
> >
> This is part of the Eventualities in CBSIFTCBE as currently required in
> the UK, especially in its winching form. It has several parts. All take
> the form of decisions spoken aloud if there's anybody else on board and
> mentally if you're flying solo. This makes sure that these decisions are
> all fresh in your mind at launch. Decide:
>
> 1) that you'll pull off if your wing drops at the start of the launch.
> 2) your approach speed in case of launch failure.
> This is wind dependent, so look at the sock, trees, grass, etc.
> 3) that if possible you'll land ahead from a launch failure.
> 4) which way you'll turn if you are too high to land ahead.
> This is always downwind and requires a look at the sock.
>
> The same works for aero tow with slight mods.
>
>
> --
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org |

Andreas Maurer
March 24th 10, 12:05 AM
On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 07:20:44 -0700 (PDT), Tony >
wrote:

>Seems to me that it's been a while since we had a good brouhaha over
>pretakeoff checklists. Most of use use either ABBCCCDDE (or is it
>AABBCCDDE? Or ABBBCCCCDDEEFG?) or CBSIFTCB or some other variant. I'm
>curious what you use and WHY? What have you added or subtracted to
>the "base" checklist to fit your specific glider or operation, or to
>prevent problems you have encountered.
>
>I personally use CBSIFTCB in all the gliders I fly. After that is
>complete I'm OK hooking up the rope, then I review WET (Wind,
>Emergency, Traffic) and give the signal to launch.


In Germany we have an entirely different method to memorize a glider
checklist, based on the method of identifying each item in the cockpit
in a certain order:

- Start with your body
- Then move through the cockpit in a clockwise direction
- Then move outside the cockpit



Which results in this checklist:

1. Body
- Weight
- Tail dolly
- Seating position
- Parachute
- Safety belt

2. Cockpit clockwise, starting on the left cockpit wall
- Airbrakes
- Flaps

3. Instruement panel
- Radio
- Altimeter

4. Cockpit center
- Stick and rudder pedals
- Trim
- Canopy

5. Outside the cockpit
- Wind
- Traffic
- Emergency procedures



I'm not sure if this is a better method, but it seems to work.

In my opinion the advantage of this method is that it is systematic:
As long as you remember to move the head in a clockwise direction and
identify a device in the cockpit, you'll hopefully remember that it's
an item in the check list.




Cheers
Andreas

Barny
March 24th 10, 01:16 AM
Hopefully everyone uses what works best for them.
Before leaving the house to fly, I have a full page list.
For Pre-take off and landing, written is the only way for me. I can't
remember how to spell actual words let alone acronyms, so I combined
Schliecher's and Tom's, then broke into four parts pasted below:

---Pre-Take Off---
---OUTSIDE----
Tail Dolly
PDA programed
SN10 programed
VL memory cleared
Task declared to VL
M.E.C. installed
Chart in side pocket
Turnpoints in side pocket
Money Clip to side pouch
Phone off, to side pouch
Reading glasses
Sun glasses
Car keys not on me
Food
Camel Back - Closed
Rope, Link, Knots
----PANEL----
Trim at fwd edge of sticker
Illec Set, Vol 1/2
Altimeter Set
Air Vents Closed X3
B-40 off
Radio Freq & volume
-----LAP-----
Unzip Fly
H2O closed & in reach
Belts Tight
Parachute Straps
Trim set
Controls free
Wind Direction
Emergency Plan
----GO TIME----
Canopy locked
Airbrakes @ 1/2 (Left hand)
Thumb-Up (Right hand)
----Pre-Landing----
Undercarriage
Speed
Trim
Altitude
Airbrakes
Look for Objects
Bank Angle
Touchdown-2 point
Stick back on ground roll

Some items are there to guarantee the flight is comfortable and hassle
free. About 1 in 10 flights I go back to get something from the car or
hanger after I'm gridded.

I also have a short "don't leave the house w/o it" list taped to the
fridge, my friends use it to confirm that I'm a dork.

~Barny

Eric Greenwell
March 24th 10, 02:03 AM
Nine Bravo Ground wrote:
> Good lists.
>
> The only things I've forgotten multiple times are:
>
> Drinking water (sitting on the hose)
> Oxygen (main valve closed)
> Sunglasses (left in the car)
>
> They won't cause an accident - but the first two require coming back
> to land.
>
Just in case you haven't thought of this:

* water is a tough one. I've used a clip to hold it out of the way; the
current glider, it just goes in the side pocket.

* invent/devise/whatever a cable/lever/remote electric valve that lets
you open the bottle while flying. I used bicycle cable to a simple
bolt-on lever to the oxygen knob on the bottle in my Libelle. Easy - it
only has to be cracked less than a quarter turn. My other four gliders
had the bottle where a determined pilot could reach back to the baggage
area or beside himself and turn it on.

* buy a pair of sunglasses that _never_ leave the glider (easy for me
because I don't have prescription glasses, but cheez! at least put a
pair of clip-ons in the pocket!).

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)

- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

Frank Whiteley
March 24th 10, 03:37 AM
On Mar 23, 9:01*am, Nine Bravo Ground > wrote:
> On Mar 23, 7:48*am, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 23, 8:31*am, Grider Pirate > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 23, 7:24*am, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 23, 8:20*am, Tony > wrote:
>
> > > > > Seems to me that it's been a while since we had a good brouhaha over
> > > > > pretakeoff checklists. *Most of use use either ABBCCCDDE (or is it
> > > > > AABBCCDDE? Or ABBBCCCCDDEEFG?) or CBSIFTCB or some other variant. *I'm
> > > > > curious what you use and WHY? *What have you added or subtracted to
> > > > > the "base" checklist to fit your specific glider or operation, or to
> > > > > prevent problems you have encountered.
>
> > > > > I personally use CBSIFTCB in all the gliders I fly. After that is
> > > > > complete I'm OK hooking up the rope, then I review WET (Wind,
> > > > > Emergency, Traffic) and give the signal to launch.
>
> > > > Ditto the checklist you use, mostly due to law of primacy.
>
> > > > Frank Whiteley
>
> > > I don't know CBSIFTCB. *I use
>
> > > A ltimiter
> > > B elts
> > > B allast
> > > C ontrols
> > > C anopy
> > > C able
> > > D ivebrakes
> > > D irection (wind)
> > > E mergency plan
>
> > > .. and for landing:
>
> > > F laps
> > > U ndercarriage
> > > S peed
> > > T rim
> > > A irbrakes
> > > L ook
> > > L and
>
> > C ontrols
> > B allast
> > S traps
> > I nstruments
> > F laps
> > T rim
> > C anopy
> > B rakes
>
> > W ater
> > U ndercarriage
> > L loose items
> > F laps
> > S peed
> > T rim
> > A irbrakes
> > L ook
> > L and
>
> > as the eventual migration from USTALL in the late '70's. *Some of the
> > liturgy of soaring.
>
> Does "Land" mean anything beyond the obvious?
>
> 9B

IIRC, in the original USTALL I learned in 1977 the second L (modified
in later club checks) was 'Look again', which is good advice.

March 24th 10, 03:55 AM
On Mar 23, 1:07*pm, Dave White > wrote:

*Adding things like "look"
> and "land" just garbages them up.


LOOK outside for traffic in the pattern
LANDing area clear of obstructions

I'd place these in the "killer items" list not the "garbage"

T8
March 24th 10, 01:14 PM
On Mar 23, 11:55*pm, wrote:
> On Mar 23, 1:07*pm, Dave White > wrote:
>
> *Adding things like "look"
>
> > and "land" just garbages them up.
>
> LOOK outside for traffic in the pattern
> LANDing area clear of obstructions
>
> I'd place these in the "killer items" list not the "garbage"

Aw come on... I don't believe for a moment that any pilot needs that
on a checklist.

The hazard that does claim lives that might be worthy of "lookout" is
traffic coming in from *other* than the normal traffic pattern.
"Tunnel vision" is easily acquired, shed only through effort and
discipline.

Dave White: like your approach.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

March 24th 10, 02:10 PM
On Mar 24, 7:14*am, T8 > wrote:

> Aw come on... I don't believe for a moment that any pilot needs that
> on a checklist.
>
>

Than you haven't spent much time in the back seat teaching new pilots
or reviewing experienced ones. Glad we don't have to worry about you!

MM

T8
March 24th 10, 02:50 PM
On Mar 24, 10:10*am, wrote:
> On Mar 24, 7:14*am, T8 > wrote:
>
> > Aw come on... I don't believe for a moment that any pilot needs that
> > on a checklist.
>
> Than you haven't spent much time in the back seat teaching new pilots
> or reviewing experienced ones. *Glad we don't have to worry about you!
>
> MM

Still not buyin'. Clearing the airspace (or groundspace) you intend
to occupy in the next 60 seconds or so is a continuous requirement for
safety. If that isn't being done automatically and continuously, I
don't see how a checklist item is going to help. You are right: I'm
not an instructor. Presuming that you are, please accept my thanks
for doing the job!

-T8

Frank Whiteley
March 24th 10, 03:01 PM
On Mar 24, 7:14*am, T8 > wrote:
> On Mar 23, 11:55*pm, wrote:
>
> > On Mar 23, 1:07*pm, Dave White > wrote:
>
> > *Adding things like "look"
>
> > > and "land" just garbages them up.
>
> > LOOK outside for traffic in the pattern
> > LANDing area clear of obstructions
>
> > I'd place these in the "killer items" list not the "garbage"
>
> Aw come on... I don't believe for a moment that any pilot needs that
> on a checklist.
>
> The hazard that does claim lives that might be worthy of "lookout" is
> traffic coming in from *other* than the normal traffic pattern.
> "Tunnel vision" is easily acquired, shed only through effort and
> discipline.
>
> Dave White: like your approach.
>
> -Evan Ludeman / T8

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20091128X53127&key=1

Many sites have differing patterns for power and gliders. I've flown
from sites that have patterns for gliders, light power, and heavy
power with multiple entries and altitudes. My club glider port has
opposite power and glider patterns, north and east for power, south
and west for gliders.

Frank Whiteley

bildan
March 24th 10, 03:14 PM
On Mar 23, 8:03*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> Nine Bravo Ground wrote:

> * * invent/devise/whatever a cable/lever/remote electric valve that lets
> you open the bottle while flying. I used bicycle cable to a simple
> bolt-on lever to the oxygen knob on the bottle in my Libelle. Easy - it
> only has to be cracked less than a quarter turn. My other four gliders
> had the bottle where a determined pilot could reach back to the baggage
> area or beside himself and turn it on.

A couple of points

Mountain High has a clever remote valve operating device for their
cylinders.

Some older oxygen cylinder valves may leak past the stem if not fully
opened. I open O2 valves fully to seat the stem seal.

March 24th 10, 03:17 PM
On Mar 24, 8:50*am, T8 > wrote:
> On Mar 24, 10:10*am, wrote:
>
> > On Mar 24, 7:14*am, T8 > wrote:
>
> > > Aw come on... I don't believe for a moment that any pilot needs that
> > > on a checklist.
>
> > Than you haven't spent much time in the back seat teaching new pilots
> > or reviewing experienced ones. *Glad we don't have to worry about you!
>
> > MM
>
> Still not buyin'. *Clearing the airspace (or groundspace) you intend
> to occupy in the next 60 seconds or so is a continuous requirement for
> safety. *If that isn't being done automatically and continuously, I
> don't see how a checklist item is going to help. *You are right: I'm
> not an instructor. *Presuming that you are, please accept my thanks
> for doing the job!
>
> -T8




It's about intentionally redirecting ones focus of attention. Some
people actually need help thinking about this.

LANDing area also includes having an alternate, both during off-
airport and on-airport landings.

T8
March 24th 10, 03:51 PM
On Mar 24, 11:17*am, wrote:

> It's about intentionally redirecting ones focus of attention. *Some
> people actually need help thinking about this.

I get that, I agree. My objection is that if a checklist item is
necessary to make this happen at pattern & landing time, then the
lookout discipline during other phases of flight is probably lacking.
Intentional redirection of attention away from front/center needs to
be happening continuously.

> LANDing area also includes having an alternate, both during off-
> airport and on-airport landings.

I like that.

-T8

bildan
March 24th 10, 03:55 PM
On Mar 23, 9:37*pm, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
> On Mar 23, 9:01*am, Nine Bravo Ground > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 23, 7:48*am, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 23, 8:31*am, Grider Pirate > wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 23, 7:24*am, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Mar 23, 8:20*am, Tony > wrote:
>
> > > > > > Seems to me that it's been a while since we had a good brouhaha over
> > > > > > pretakeoff checklists. *Most of use use either ABBCCCDDE (or is it
> > > > > > AABBCCDDE? Or ABBBCCCCDDEEFG?) or CBSIFTCB or some other variant. *I'm
> > > > > > curious what you use and WHY? *What have you added or subtracted to
> > > > > > the "base" checklist to fit your specific glider or operation, or to
> > > > > > prevent problems you have encountered.
>
> > > > > > I personally use CBSIFTCB in all the gliders I fly. After that is
> > > > > > complete I'm OK hooking up the rope, then I review WET (Wind,
> > > > > > Emergency, Traffic) and give the signal to launch.
>
> > > > > Ditto the checklist you use, mostly due to law of primacy.
>
> > > > > Frank Whiteley
>
> > > > I don't know CBSIFTCB. *I use
>
> > > > A ltimiter
> > > > B elts
> > > > B allast
> > > > C ontrols
> > > > C anopy
> > > > C able
> > > > D ivebrakes
> > > > D irection (wind)
> > > > E mergency plan
>
> > > > .. and for landing:
>
> > > > F laps
> > > > U ndercarriage
> > > > S peed
> > > > T rim
> > > > A irbrakes
> > > > L ook
> > > > L and
>
> > > C ontrols
> > > B allast
> > > S traps
> > > I nstruments
> > > F laps
> > > T rim
> > > C anopy
> > > B rakes
>
> > > W ater
> > > U ndercarriage
> > > L loose items
> > > F laps
> > > S peed
> > > T rim
> > > A irbrakes
> > > L ook
> > > L and
>
> > > as the eventual migration from USTALL in the late '70's. *Some of the
> > > liturgy of soaring.
>
> > Does "Land" mean anything beyond the obvious?
>
> > 9B
>
> IIRC, in the original USTALL I learned in 1977 the second L (modified
> in later club checks) was 'Look again', which is good advice.

I use "BUFSTALL".

Ballast: (Dump takes up to 10 minutes so it's first - "S" turn while
looking back or check shadow to make sure water is going overboard.)

Undercarriage: (Approaching and circling field with gear down lets
people know I want to land - I have two gear warning systems for
backup.)

Flaps: (Set as appropriate or think about when and where to set them,
i.e. go to full flaps on short final),

Speed(s): (Select two speeds for conditions: a faster pattern speed
and a slower, yellow triangle "over-the-fence" speed.)

Trim-set:

Air brakes-check: (I've found them frozen on several occasions and
once only one side opened.)

Look: (Final check for traffic on the ground and in the air, select
aim, touchdown and stopping points which will be very different if "A"
didn't work.)

Land. The final L for Land isn't redundant. It's a reminder the
checklist is complete and it's time to focus 100% of my attention to
making a safe, accurate landing.

There's a 1000 other things that could be discussed for inclusion such
as radio calls. I think a "landing checklist" should be as short as
possible while covering the basic items. "Basic" in the sense that
it'll be expensive and/or I'll look stupid if they're overlooked.

Andy[_1_]
March 24th 10, 04:43 PM
On Mar 23, 6:16*pm, Barny > wrote:

>Some items are there to guarantee the flight is comfortable and hassle
>free. About 1 in 10 flights I go back to get something from the car or
>hanger after I'm gridded.

Does that mean the checklist is NOT working for you? I use a prepush
checklist and very seldom have to go back for anything.

I do need to change the existing item "Task sheet" to "Read the task
sheet!" though ;)

Andy (GY)

March 24th 10, 04:52 PM
On Mar 24, 9:51*am, T8 > wrote:
*My objection is that if a checklist item is
> necessary to make this happen at pattern & landing time, then the
> lookout discipline during other phases of flight is probably lacking.
> Intentional redirection of attention away from front/center needs to
> be happening continuously.


Yup. Objection sustained. Remember though, that under stress or
overload the human brain tends to diminish in it's ability to handle
complex tasks. Instructors try to impart techniques that will keep
people from getting killed when they are functioning at a primitive
level. You'd be surprised how often very smart people do very dumb
things. Experience shows that it's better to expect errors and have a
plan to catch them then to expect people to do what they are supposed
to do.

March 24th 10, 09:20 PM
How about a mental checklist for the wingrunner (to add to the safety
of flight)?

CARDS

C- canopy closed and latched
A- airbrakes as appropriate
R- rudder lock removed
D- dolleys removed
S- scan infront of the glider, along the rope, the towplane, and the
traffic pattern

And, this works as a final-items checklist for the glider pilot, too.

Raul Boerner

Barny
March 25th 10, 10:55 PM
Some items are there to guarantee the flight is comfortable and hassle
free. About 1 in 10 flights I go back to get something from the car or
hanger after I'm gridded.
*****************
Does that mean the checklist is NOT working for you? *I use a prepush
checklist and very seldom have to go back for anything. I do need to
change the existing item "Task sheet" to "Read the task sheet!"
*though ;)
Andy (GY)
*****************
Going back for something that makes the flight more comfortable means
it's working great (at least for me). I suppose I could review it
before moving from the hanger to the grid, but the car is usually
parked very near the grid. My post was meant to show the benefits of a
written comprehensive (aka long) list vs. acronyms. I think the extra
items have really improved my safety and reduced frustrations. Some of
the words carry more meaning: Camel back "closed" and "in reach" = 3
things (have it, not leaking on me, able to reach the hose). Cell
phone off and in side pocket = 2 things: (battery not run down due to
no service & not uncomfortable in my pocket). Phone rings, not able
to get it out of my pocket, beeping every 30 seconds for the missed
call. Stuff like that really helped me.
~Bruce

mattm[_2_]
March 26th 10, 02:56 PM
On Mar 25, 6:55*pm, Barny > wrote:
> Some items are there to guarantee the flight is comfortable and hassle
> free. About 1 in 10 flights I go back to get something from the car or
> hanger after I'm gridded.
> *****************
> *Does that mean the checklist is NOT working for you? *I use a prepush
> checklist and very seldom have to go back for anything. *I do need to
> change the existing item "Task sheet" to "Read the task sheet!"
> *though ;)
> * Andy (GY)
> *****************
> Going back for something that makes the flight more comfortable means
> it's working great (at least for me). I suppose I could review it
> before moving from the hanger to the grid, but the car is usually
> parked very near the grid. My post was meant to show the benefits of a
> written comprehensive (aka long) list vs. acronyms. I think the extra
> items have really improved my safety and reduced frustrations. Some of
> the words carry more meaning: *Camel back "closed" and "in reach" = 3
> things (have it, not leaking on me, able to reach the hose). Cell
> phone off and in side pocket = 2 things: (battery not run down due to
> no service & not uncomfortable in my pocket). *Phone rings, not able
> to get it out of my pocket, beeping every 30 seconds for the missed
> call. Stuff like that really helped me.
> ~Bruce

I dunno; for landing at least I like to have the memorized checklist
(FUSTALL,
WUSTALL, WUFSTALL, depending on what I'm flying) because I think that
traffic patterns need extra vigilance to look for traffic. Remember
that most
mid-airs happen in the pattern. I can sure see the point of a
laminated
checklist for a rental plane or for a more complex plane (e.g. self
launcher).

For preparation, though, written checklists are a big help. Whenever
I go
to a contest I spend some time and create extra checklists for each
significant
point in the trip -- packing, leaving the house, picking up the
trailer at the airport,
tying down the trailer at the contest, assembly, grid time, retrieve,
and
going home. It would be Really Bad to be 600 miles away someplace and
realize you've forgotten something important, like your logger. Also,
the retrieve
checklist needs to be for someone else who will come get you when you
land out, because they won't neccessarily know all the details of
your car
and trailer.

-- Matt

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