Curtiss SB2C Helldiver wreckage found in Oregon's woods.

[David E. Powell]

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/helldiver_wreckage_oregon_woods_202235-1.html

<http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/
helldiver_wreckage_oregon_woods_202235-1.html>

March 25, 2010

Helldiver Wreckage Discovered in Oregon Woods Email this article |
Print this article

By Glenn Pew, Contributing Editor, Video Editor








Wreckage of a Curtiss SB2C Helldiver single-engine dive bomber has
been discovered in privately owned woods near Rockaway Beach, Oregon,
but its origins and crew remain to be identified. The World War II-era
aircraft's wreckage was originally spotted by employees of a logging
company on March 18. The wreckage covers approximately 200 yards and
early responders did report the possibility of human remains at the
site. Among the more clearly identifiable aircraft debris at the site
are a wing, the tail section, and landing gear. Officials have not
found any unexploded ordnance mixed in with the wreckage but are
attempting to secure the site while the investigation continues. Navy
personnel, in coordination with Oregon State Police and the county
Sheriff's office are working together on the investigation. The team
has sought input from the Joint Prisoner of War / Missing In Action
Accounting Command in Honolulu.

What was once the Naval Air Station at Tillamook is located nearly 20
miles from the crash site, but investigators have not yet determined
if that was the aircraft's station of origin. The air station was
decommissioned in 1948. The Helldiver was operated by a crew of two
and could carry 1,000 pounds of bombs, deliver depth charges, or an
internally carried torpedo. It entered service in 1943, flying behind
a 1,900 horsepower Wright Cyclone radial. The Commemorative Air Force
believes it operates the only remaining flying example. Known by its
crew as the "big-tailed beast," the World War II-era Navy plane has
been credited by some as causing the destruction of more Japanese
targets than any other aircraft of the war. The Commemorative Air
Force believes it operates the world's only remaining flying example.

[Ken S. Tucker]

On Mar 26, 6:00 pm, "David E. Powell" >
wrote:
> http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/helldiver_wreckage_oregon_woods_...
>
> <http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/
> helldiver_wreckage_oregon_woods_202235-1.html>
>
> March 25, 2010
>
> Helldiver Wreckage Discovered in Oregon Woods Email this article |
> Print this article
>
> By Glenn Pew, Contributing Editor, Video Editor
>
> Wreckage of a Curtiss SB2C Helldiver single-engine dive bomber has
> been discovered in privately owned woods near Rockaway Beach, Oregon,
> but its origins and crew remain to be identified. The World War II-era
> aircraft's wreckage was originally spotted by employees of a logging
> company on March 18. The wreckage covers approximately 200 yards and
> early responders did report the possibility of human remains at the
> site. Among the more clearly identifiable aircraft debris at the site
> are a wing, the tail section, and landing gear. Officials have not
> found any unexploded ordnance mixed in with the wreckage but are
> attempting to secure the site while the investigation continues. Navy
> personnel, in coordination with Oregon State Police and the county
> Sheriff's office are working together on the investigation. The team
> has sought input from the Joint Prisoner of War / Missing In Action
> Accounting Command in Honolulu.
>
> What was once the Naval Air Station at Tillamook is located nearly 20
> miles from the crash site, but investigators have not yet determined
> if that was the aircraft's station of origin. The air station was
> decommissioned in 1948. The Helldiver was operated by a crew of two
> and could carry 1,000 pounds of bombs, deliver depth charges, or an
> internally carried torpedo. It entered service in 1943, flying behind
> a 1,900 horsepower Wright Cyclone radial. The Commemorative Air Force
> believes it operates the only remaining flying example. Known by its
> crew as the "big-tailed beast," the World War II-era Navy plane has
> been credited by some as causing the destruction of more Japanese
> targets than any other aircraft of the war. The Commemorative Air
> Force believes it operates the world's only remaining flying example.

This article is 'less than flattering' about the Helldiver,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SB2C_Helldiver

If anyone disputes the article please advise, it's a wiki.
It surprised me so many were also built in Canada.
Ken

[Diogenes]

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 00:47:36 -0700 (PDT), "Ken S. Tucker"
> wrote:

>
>This article is 'less than flattering' about the Helldiver,
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SB2C_Helldiver
>
>If anyone disputes the article please advise, it's a wiki.
>It surprised me so many were also built in Canada.
>Ken

My father was a WWII fighter pilot but flew the Helldiver several
times on ferry missions. He said it was the worst-handling aircraft he
ever had the misfortune to fly.

----
Diogenes

The wars are long, the peace is frail
The madmen come again . . . .

[Ken S. Tucker]

On Mar 27, 6:15 am, Diogenes > wrote:
> On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 00:47:36 -0700 (PDT), "Ken S. Tucker"
>
> > wrote:
>
> >This article is 'less than flattering' about the Helldiver,
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SB2C_Helldiver
>
> >If anyone disputes the article please advise, it's a wiki.
> >It surprised me so many were also built in Canada.
> >Ken
>
> My father was a WWII fighter pilot but flew the Helldiver several
> times on ferry missions. He said it was the worst-handling aircraft he
> ever had the misfortune to fly.
> Diogenes

Yeah, just looking at it superficially, aerodynamically it's a dog.
Things like a lot of curvature under the tail sucks the tail down,
then the main wing blanks the elevator, your father deserves over
time danger pay just to ferry it, "Helldiver" might be an appropriate,
name.
Ken

[Matt Wiser]

On Mar 27, 2:12*pm, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
> On Mar 27, 6:15 am, Diogenes > wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 00:47:36 -0700 (PDT), "Ken S. Tucker"
>
> > > wrote:
>
> > >This article is 'less than flattering' about the Helldiver,
> > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SB2C_Helldiver
>
> > >If anyone disputes the article please advise, it's a wiki.
> > >It surprised me so many were also built in Canada.
> > >Ken
>
> > My father was a WWII fighter pilot but flew the Helldiver several
> > times on ferry missions. He said it was the worst-handling aircraft he
> > ever had the misfortune to fly.
> > * *Diogenes
>
> Yeah, just looking at it superficially, aerodynamically it's a dog.
> Things like a lot of curvature under the tail sucks the tail down,
> then the main wing blanks the elevator, your father deserves over
> time danger pay just to ferry it, "Helldiver" might be an appropriate,
> name.
> Ken

There was another name that pilots called the aircraft: "Son of a
Bitch, 2nd Class." The -1 version was the worst, but the -3 onward
handled very well.

[John Szalay]

Matt Wiser > wrote in news:c381e208-3e25-428f-accd-f
> There was another name that pilots called the aircraft: "Son of a
> Bitch, 2nd Class." The -1 version was the worst, but the -3 onward
> handled very well.



There appears to be evidence that this is the 1948 crash not one of the
two 1945 missing aircraft.

the date 1946 has been reported to have been found stamped on a piece of
wreckage and then this newspaper article

http://media.oregonlive.com/news_impact/other/1948Crash.pdf


http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/03/former_mechanic_remembers_
62-y.html

http://www.kval.com/news/89334052.html

[guy]

On 28 Mar, 03:15, Matt Wiser > wrote:
> On Mar 27, 2:12*pm, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 27, 6:15 am, Diogenes > wrote:
>
> > > On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 00:47:36 -0700 (PDT), "Ken S. Tucker"
>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > >This article is 'less than flattering' about the Helldiver,
> > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SB2C_Helldiver
>
> > > >If anyone disputes the article please advise, it's a wiki.
> > > >It surprised me so many were also built in Canada.
> > > >Ken
>
> > > My father was a WWII fighter pilot but flew the Helldiver several
> > > times on ferry missions. He said it was the worst-handling aircraft he
> > > ever had the misfortune to fly.
> > > * *Diogenes
>
> > Yeah, just looking at it superficially, aerodynamically it's a dog.
> > Things like a lot of curvature under the tail sucks the tail down,
> > then the main wing blanks the elevator, your father deserves over
> > time danger pay just to ferry it, "Helldiver" might be an appropriate,
> > name.
> > Ken
>
> There was another name that pilots called the aircraft: "Son of a
> Bitch, 2nd Class." The -1 version was the worst, but the -3 onward
> handled very well.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Capt Eric Brown (and he knows a thinhg or two) really did not like the
Helldiver both from a handling perspective and as a dive bomber but I
am not sure which version he test flew.
He rated the earlier Dauntless much better.

Guy

[Ken S. Tucker]

On Mar 27, 7:15 pm, Matt Wiser > wrote:
> On Mar 27, 2:12 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 27, 6:15 am, Diogenes > wrote:
>
> > > On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 00:47:36 -0700 (PDT), "Ken S. Tucker"
>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > >This article is 'less than flattering' about the Helldiver,
> > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SB2C_Helldiver
>
> > > >If anyone disputes the article please advise, it's a wiki.
> > > >It surprised me so many were also built in Canada.
> > > >Ken
>
> > > My father was a WWII fighter pilot but flew the Helldiver several
> > > times on ferry missions. He said it was the worst-handling aircraft he
> > > ever had the misfortune to fly.
> > > Diogenes
>
> > Yeah, just looking at it superficially, aerodynamically it's a dog.
> > Things like a lot of curvature under the tail sucks the tail down,
> > then the main wing blanks the elevator, your father deserves over
> > time danger pay just to ferry it, "Helldiver" might be an appropriate,
> > name.
> > Ken
>
> There was another name that pilots called the aircraft: "Son of a
> Bitch, 2nd Class." The -1 version was the worst, but the -3 onward
> handled very well.

Most a/c have 'idiosyncrasies' ((had to look up the spelin of that)),
if the pilot is knowledgeable of them, he'd know what 'not' to do.
It may be a case the Helldiver had a restricted flight envelope that
required more respect (less forgiving) than other aircraft,
so a properly trained pilot could handle the "beast".
I've read that about the F-104, horses and wives.
Ken

[Matt Wiser]

On Mar 28, 7:54*am, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
> On Mar 27, 7:15 pm, Matt Wiser > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 27, 2:12 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 27, 6:15 am, Diogenes > wrote:
>
> > > > On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 00:47:36 -0700 (PDT), "Ken S. Tucker"
>
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > >This article is 'less than flattering' about the Helldiver,
> > > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SB2C_Helldiver
>
> > > > >If anyone disputes the article please advise, it's a wiki.
> > > > >It surprised me so many were also built in Canada.
> > > > >Ken
>
> > > > My father was a WWII fighter pilot but flew the Helldiver several
> > > > times on ferry missions. He said it was the worst-handling aircraft he
> > > > ever had the misfortune to fly.
> > > > * *Diogenes
>
> > > Yeah, just looking at it superficially, aerodynamically it's a dog.
> > > Things like a lot of curvature under the tail sucks the tail down,
> > > then the main wing blanks the elevator, your father deserves over
> > > time danger pay just to ferry it, "Helldiver" might be an appropriate,
> > > name.
> > > Ken
>
> > There was another name that pilots called the aircraft: "Son of a
> > Bitch, 2nd Class." The -1 version was the worst, but the -3 onward
> > handled very well.
>
> Most a/c have 'idiosyncrasies' ((had to look up the spelin of that)),
> if the pilot is knowledgeable of them, he'd know what 'not' to do.
> It may be a case the Helldiver had a restricted flight envelope that
> required more respect (less forgiving) than other aircraft,
> so a properly trained pilot could handle the "beast".
> I've read that about the F-104, horses and wives.
> Ken- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

You're quite right, Keith. But the -1 was underpowered, and had a
three-bladed prop. The -3 and beyond had some more horses in the
engine, a four-blade prop, and the training regimen for SB2C pilots
made sure nugget pilots knew what to do in the plane, and what not to
do. VADM Marc Mitscher (ComTF-38/58) took some convincing, but when
VB-19 arrived on Lexington with the -3 in July of '44 and showed him
what the plane could do, he was convinced. He had reccommeded keeping
the SBD in Fleet Service, but Douglas had shut down the SBD line, so
the Navy had no choice.

[[email protected][_2_]]

On Mar 28, 9:29*pm, Matt Wiser > wrote:
> On Mar 28, 7:54*am, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 27, 7:15 pm, Matt Wiser > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 27, 2:12 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 27, 6:15 am, Diogenes > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 00:47:36 -0700 (PDT), "Ken S. Tucker"
>
> > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > >This article is 'less than flattering' about the Helldiver,
> > > > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SB2C_Helldiver
>
> > > > > >If anyone disputes the article please advise, it's a wiki.
> > > > > >It surprised me so many were also built in Canada.
> > > > > >Ken
>
> > > > > My father was a WWII fighter pilot but flew the Helldiver several
> > > > > times on ferry missions. He said it was the worst-handling aircraft he
> > > > > ever had the misfortune to fly.
> > > > > * *Diogenes
>
> > > > Yeah, just looking at it superficially, aerodynamically it's a dog.
> > > > Things like a lot of curvature under the tail sucks the tail down,
> > > > then the main wing blanks the elevator, your father deserves over
> > > > time danger pay just to ferry it, "Helldiver" might be an appropriate,
> > > > name.
> > > > Ken
>
> > > There was another name that pilots called the aircraft: "Son of a
> > > Bitch, 2nd Class." The -1 version was the worst, but the -3 onward
> > > handled very well.
>
> > Most a/c have 'idiosyncrasies' ((had to look up the spelin of that)),
> > if the pilot is knowledgeable of them, he'd know what 'not' to do.
> > It may be a case the Helldiver had a restricted flight envelope that
> > required more respect (less forgiving) than other aircraft,
> > so a properly trained pilot could handle the "beast".
> > I've read that about the F-104, horses and wives.
> > Ken- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> You're quite right, Keith. But the -1 was underpowered, and had a
> three-bladed prop. The -3 and beyond had some more horses in the
> engine, a four-blade prop, and the training regimen for SB2C pilots
> made sure nugget pilots knew what to do in the plane, and what not to
> do. VADM Marc Mitscher (ComTF-38/58) took some convincing, but when
> VB-19 arrived on Lexington with the -3 in July of '44 and showed him
> what the plane could do, he was convinced. He had reccommeded keeping
> the SBD in Fleet Service, but Douglas had shut down the SBD line, so
> the Navy had no choice.-

That'd what I've read....the -1 had lots of issues which were
fixed (mostly) in the -3, but by then the reputation was crappy.

[Peter Stickney[_2_]]

On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:49:27 -0700, wrote:

> On Mar 28, 9:29Â*pm, Matt Wiser > wrote:
>> On Mar 28, 7:54Â*am, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Mar 27, 7:15 pm, Matt Wiser > wrote:
>>
>> > > On Mar 27, 2:12 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
>>
>> > > > On Mar 27, 6:15 am, Diogenes > wrote:
>>
>> > > > > On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 00:47:36 -0700 (PDT), "Ken S. Tucker"
>>
>> > > > > > wrote:
>>
>> > > > > >This article is 'less than flattering' about the Helldiver,
>> > > > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SB2C_Helldiver
>>
>> > > > > >If anyone disputes the article please advise, it's a wiki. It
>> > > > > >surprised me so many were also built in Canada. Ken
>>
>> > > > > My father was a WWII fighter pilot but flew the Helldiver
>> > > > > several times on ferry missions. He said it was the
>> > > > > worst-handling aircraft he ever had the misfortune to fly.
>> > > > > Â* Â*Diogenes
>>
>> > > > Yeah, just looking at it superficially, aerodynamically it's a
>> > > > dog. Things like a lot of curvature under the tail sucks the tail
>> > > > down, then the main wing blanks the elevator, your father
>> > > > deserves over time danger pay just to ferry it, "Helldiver" might
>> > > > be an appropriate, name.
>> > > > Ken
>>
>> > > There was another name that pilots called the aircraft: "Son of a
>> > > Bitch, 2nd Class." The -1 version was the worst, but the -3 onward
>> > > handled very well.
>>
>> > Most a/c have 'idiosyncrasies' ((had to look up the spelin of that)),
>> > if the pilot is knowledgeable of them, he'd know what 'not' to do. It
>> > may be a case the Helldiver had a restricted flight envelope that
>> > required more respect (less forgiving) than other aircraft, so a
>> > properly trained pilot could handle the "beast". I've read that about
>> > the F-104, horses and wives. Ken- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> You're quite right, Keith. But the -1 was underpowered, and had a
>> three-bladed prop. The -3 and beyond had some more horses in the
>> engine, a four-blade prop, and the training regimen for SB2C pilots
>> made sure nugget pilots knew what to do in the plane, and what not to
>> do. VADM Marc Mitscher (ComTF-38/58) took some convincing, but when
>> VB-19 arrived on Lexington with the -3 in July of '44 and showed him
>> what the plane could do, he was convinced. He had reccommeded keeping
>> the SBD in Fleet Service, but Douglas had shut down the SBD line, so
>> the Navy had no choice.-
>
> That'd what I've read....the -1 had lots of issues which were
> fixed (mostly) in the -3, but by then the reputation was crappy.

It was still a crappy airplane. I've got the NACA report on its
Flying Qualities. Dismal comes pretty close to covering it.
To pull just one example - the friction in the control runs was
so high that it took 40 lbsf of pull force to move the elevators -
while standing still on the ground in no wind.
The SB2C was a prewar design. It took Curtiss nearly all the war
to beat it into marginally acceptable shape.
By that time, the view of attack airplanes had been changing radically.
Rather than the shipboard bombers becoming bigger versions of the
Dantless/Helldiver formula, they became single-seat load carriers like
the AD-1 and AM-1.

--
Pete Stickney
Failure is not an option
It comes bundled with the system

[David E. Powell]

On Mar 28, 9:58*pm, Peter Stickney > wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:49:27 -0700, wrote:
> > On Mar 28, 9:29*pm, Matt Wiser > wrote:
> >> On Mar 28, 7:54*am, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
>
> >> > On Mar 27, 7:15 pm, Matt Wiser > wrote:
>
> >> > > On Mar 27, 2:12 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
>
> >> > > > On Mar 27, 6:15 am, Diogenes > wrote:
>
> >> > > > > On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 00:47:36 -0700 (PDT), "Ken S. Tucker"
>
> >> > > > > > wrote:
>
> >> > > > > >This article is 'less than flattering' about the Helldiver,
> >> > > > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SB2C_Helldiver
>
> >> > > > > >If anyone disputes the article please advise, it's a wiki. It
> >> > > > > >surprised me so many were also built in Canada. Ken
>
> >> > > > > My father was a WWII fighter pilot but flew the Helldiver
> >> > > > > several times on ferry missions. He said it was the
> >> > > > > worst-handling aircraft he ever had the misfortune to fly.
> >> > > > > * *Diogenes
>
> >> > > > Yeah, just looking at it superficially, aerodynamically it's a
> >> > > > dog. Things like a lot of curvature under the tail sucks the tail
> >> > > > down, then the main wing blanks the elevator, your father
> >> > > > deserves over time danger pay just to ferry it, "Helldiver" might
> >> > > > be an appropriate, name.
> >> > > > Ken
>
> >> > > There was another name that pilots called the aircraft: "Son of a
> >> > > Bitch, 2nd Class." The -1 version was the worst, but the -3 onward
> >> > > handled very well.
>
> >> > Most a/c have 'idiosyncrasies' ((had to look up the spelin of that)),
> >> > if the pilot is knowledgeable of them, he'd know what 'not' to do. It
> >> > may be a case the Helldiver had a restricted flight envelope that
> >> > required more respect (less forgiving) than other aircraft, so a
> >> > properly trained pilot could handle the "beast". I've read that about
> >> > the F-104, horses and wives. Ken- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> > - Show quoted text -
>
> >> You're quite right, Keith. But the -1 was underpowered, and had a
> >> three-bladed prop. The -3 and beyond had some more horses in the
> >> engine, a four-blade prop, and the training regimen for SB2C pilots
> >> made sure nugget pilots knew what to do in the plane, and what not to
> >> do. VADM Marc Mitscher (ComTF-38/58) took some convincing, but when
> >> VB-19 arrived on Lexington with the -3 in July of '44 and showed him
> >> what the plane could do, he was convinced. He had reccommeded keeping
> >> the SBD in Fleet Service, but Douglas had shut down the SBD line, so
> >> the Navy had no choice.-
>
> > * * That'd what I've read....the -1 had lots of issues which were
> > fixed (mostly) in the -3, but by then the reputation was crappy.
>
> It was still a crappy airplane. *I've got the NACA report on its
> Flying Qualities. *Dismal comes pretty close to covering it.
> To pull just one example - the friction in the control runs was
> so high that it took 40 lbsf of pull force to move the elevators -
> while standing still on the ground in no wind.
> The SB2C was a prewar design. *It took Curtiss nearly all the war
> to beat it into marginally acceptable shape.
> By that time, the view of attack airplanes had been changing radically.
> Rather than the shipboard bombers becoming bigger versions of the
> Dantless/Helldiver formula, they became single-seat load carriers like
> the AD-1 and AM-1.

Load and speed rose and crew size dropped. Similar to the medium
bombers, from B-25 Mitchell to B-26 Marauder to A/B-26 Invader. Speed
and handling became preferred as a defense over various gunners.

The Mosquito was a big step in that direction too.

It says something that the Helldiver was retired pretty soon after WW2
while the Avenger stuck around a couple more years, both were replaced
by the Skyraider. Corsairs stuck around into the 1950s too, for
multiple uses.

> --
> Pete Stickney
> Failure is not an option
> It comes bundled with the system

[Ken S. Tucker]

On Mar 28, 6:29 pm, Matt Wiser > wrote:
> On Mar 28, 7:54 am, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 27, 7:15 pm, Matt Wiser > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 27, 2:12 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 27, 6:15 am, Diogenes > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 00:47:36 -0700 (PDT), "Ken S. Tucker"
>
> > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > >This article is 'less than flattering' about the Helldiver,
> > > > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SB2C_Helldiver
>
> > > > > >If anyone disputes the article please advise, it's a wiki.
> > > > > >It surprised me so many were also built in Canada.
> > > > > >Ken
>
> > > > > My father was a WWII fighter pilot but flew the Helldiver several
> > > > > times on ferry missions. He said it was the worst-handling aircraft he
> > > > > ever had the misfortune to fly.
> > > > > Diogenes
>
> > > > Yeah, just looking at it superficially, aerodynamically it's a dog.
> > > > Things like a lot of curvature under the tail sucks the tail down,
> > > > then the main wing blanks the elevator, your father deserves over
> > > > time danger pay just to ferry it, "Helldiver" might be an appropriate,
> > > > name.
> > > > Ken
>
> > > There was another name that pilots called the aircraft: "Son of a
> > > Bitch, 2nd Class." The -1 version was the worst, but the -3 onward
> > > handled very well.
>
> > Most a/c have 'idiosyncrasies' ((had to look up the spelin of that)),
> > if the pilot is knowledgeable of them, he'd know what 'not' to do.
> > It may be a case the Helldiver had a restricted flight envelope that
> > required more respect (less forgiving) than other aircraft,
> > so a properly trained pilot could handle the "beast".
> > I've read that about the F-104, horses and wives.
> > Ken- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> You're quite right, Keith. But the -1 was underpowered, and had a
> three-bladed prop. The -3 and beyond had some more horses in the
> engine, a four-blade prop, and the training regimen for SB2C pilots
> made sure nugget pilots knew what to do in the plane, and what not to
> do. VADM Marc Mitscher (ComTF-38/58) took some convincing, but when
> VB-19 arrived on Lexington with the -3 in July of '44 and showed him
> what the plane could do, he was convinced. He had reccommeded keeping
> the SBD in Fleet Service, but Douglas had shut down the SBD line, so
> the Navy had no choice.

Yes, landing on a Carrier and landing on lots of pavement are very
different levels of skill, IMO even an average pilot could land the
Helldiver on lot's of pavement, but a Naval pilot would need to know
how to stall that bird real close to the deck edge, to grab the wire,
(I'd need a double hit of adrenaline).
Naval aviators need that extra skill to put a bird on a deck, that the
usual USAF pilots don't need so much, that's always an ongoing
problem for the Navy, landing.
Ken

[Richard Casady]

On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 20:22:14 -0700 (PDT), "David E. Powell"
> wrote:

>On Mar 28, 9:58*pm, Peter Stickney > wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:49:27 -0700, wrote:
>> > On Mar 28, 9:29*pm, Matt Wiser > wrote:
>> >> On Mar 28, 7:54*am, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
>>
>> >> > On Mar 27, 7:15 pm, Matt Wiser > wrote:
>>
>> >> > > On Mar 27, 2:12 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
>>
>> >> > > > On Mar 27, 6:15 am, Diogenes > wrote:
>>
>> >> > > > > On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 00:47:36 -0700 (PDT), "Ken S. Tucker"
>>
>> >> > > > > > wrote:
>>
>> >> > > > > >This article is 'less than flattering' about the Helldiver,
>> >> > > > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SB2C_Helldiver
>>
>> >> > > > > >If anyone disputes the article please advise, it's a wiki. It
>> >> > > > > >surprised me so many were also built in Canada. Ken
>>
>> >> > > > > My father was a WWII fighter pilot but flew the Helldiver
>> >> > > > > several times on ferry missions. He said it was the
>> >> > > > > worst-handling aircraft he ever had the misfortune to fly.
>> >> > > > > * *Diogenes
>>
>> >> > > > Yeah, just looking at it superficially, aerodynamically it's a
>> >> > > > dog. Things like a lot of curvature under the tail sucks the tail
>> >> > > > down, then the main wing blanks the elevator, your father
>> >> > > > deserves over time danger pay just to ferry it, "Helldiver" might
>> >> > > > be an appropriate, name.
>> >> > > > Ken
>>
>> >> > > There was another name that pilots called the aircraft: "Son of a
>> >> > > Bitch, 2nd Class." The -1 version was the worst, but the -3 onward
>> >> > > handled very well.
>>
>> >> > Most a/c have 'idiosyncrasies' ((had to look up the spelin of that)),
>> >> > if the pilot is knowledgeable of them, he'd know what 'not' to do. It
>> >> > may be a case the Helldiver had a restricted flight envelope that
>> >> > required more respect (less forgiving) than other aircraft, so a
>> >> > properly trained pilot could handle the "beast". I've read that about
>> >> > the F-104, horses and wives. Ken- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> >> > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> >> You're quite right, Keith. But the -1 was underpowered, and had a
>> >> three-bladed prop. The -3 and beyond had some more horses in the
>> >> engine, a four-blade prop, and the training regimen for SB2C pilots
>> >> made sure nugget pilots knew what to do in the plane, and what not to
>> >> do. VADM Marc Mitscher (ComTF-38/58) took some convincing, but when
>> >> VB-19 arrived on Lexington with the -3 in July of '44 and showed him
>> >> what the plane could do, he was convinced. He had reccommeded keeping
>> >> the SBD in Fleet Service, but Douglas had shut down the SBD line, so
>> >> the Navy had no choice.-
>>
>> > * * That'd what I've read....the -1 had lots of issues which were
>> > fixed (mostly) in the -3, but by then the reputation was crappy.
>>
>> It was still a crappy airplane. *I've got the NACA report on its
>> Flying Qualities. *Dismal comes pretty close to covering it.
>> To pull just one example - the friction in the control runs was
>> so high that it took 40 lbsf of pull force to move the elevators -
>> while standing still on the ground in no wind.
>> The SB2C was a prewar design. *It took Curtiss nearly all the war
>> to beat it into marginally acceptable shape.
>> By that time, the view of attack airplanes had been changing radically.
>> Rather than the shipboard bombers becoming bigger versions of the
>> Dantless/Helldiver formula, they became single-seat load carriers like
>> the AD-1 and AM-1.
>
>Load and speed rose and crew size dropped. Similar to the medium
>bombers, from B-25 Mitchell to B-26 Marauder to A/B-26 Invader. Speed
>and handling became preferred as a defense over various gunners.
>
>The Mosquito was a big step in that direction too.
>
>It says something that the Helldiver was retired pretty soon after WW2
>while the Avenger stuck around a couple more years, both were replaced
>by the Skyraider. Corsairs stuck around into the 1950s too, for
>multiple uses.

Invader? My uncle hunted trucks on the Ho Chi Mihn trail, at night and
got more than a hundred of them. Nimrod they called the mission. His
outfit used up the last of the flyable planes, he told me.

Casady

[Matt Wiser[_2_]]

"Peter Stickney" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:49:27 -0700, wrote:
>
> > On Mar 28, 9:29 pm, Matt Wiser > wrote:
> >> On Mar 28, 7:54 am, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > On Mar 27, 7:15 pm, Matt Wiser > wrote:
> >>
> >> > > On Mar 27, 2:12 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
> >>
> >> > > > On Mar 27, 6:15 am, Diogenes > wrote:
> >>
> >> > > > > On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 00:47:36 -0700 (PDT), "Ken S. Tucker"
> >>
> >> > > > > > wrote:
> >>
> >> > > > > >This article is 'less than flattering' about the Helldiver,
> >> > > > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SB2C_Helldiver
> >>
> >> > > > > >If anyone disputes the article please advise, it's a wiki. It
> >> > > > > >surprised me so many were also built in Canada. Ken
> >>
> >> > > > > My father was a WWII fighter pilot but flew the Helldiver
> >> > > > > several times on ferry missions. He said it was the
> >> > > > > worst-handling aircraft he ever had the misfortune to fly.
> >> > > > > Diogenes
> >>
> >> > > > Yeah, just looking at it superficially, aerodynamically it's a
> >> > > > dog. Things like a lot of curvature under the tail sucks the tail
> >> > > > down, then the main wing blanks the elevator, your father
> >> > > > deserves over time danger pay just to ferry it, "Helldiver" might
> >> > > > be an appropriate, name.
> >> > > > Ken
> >>
> >> > > There was another name that pilots called the aircraft: "Son of a
> >> > > Bitch, 2nd Class." The -1 version was the worst, but the -3 onward
> >> > > handled very well.
> >>
> >> > Most a/c have 'idiosyncrasies' ((had to look up the spelin of that)),
> >> > if the pilot is knowledgeable of them, he'd know what 'not' to do. It
> >> > may be a case the Helldiver had a restricted flight envelope that
> >> > required more respect (less forgiving) than other aircraft, so a
> >> > properly trained pilot could handle the "beast". I've read that about
> >> > the F-104, horses and wives. Ken- Hide quoted text -
> >>
> >> > - Show quoted text -
> >>
> >> You're quite right, Keith. But the -1 was underpowered, and had a
> >> three-bladed prop. The -3 and beyond had some more horses in the
> >> engine, a four-blade prop, and the training regimen for SB2C pilots
> >> made sure nugget pilots knew what to do in the plane, and what not to
> >> do. VADM Marc Mitscher (ComTF-38/58) took some convincing, but when
> >> VB-19 arrived on Lexington with the -3 in July of '44 and showed him
> >> what the plane could do, he was convinced. He had reccommeded keeping
> >> the SBD in Fleet Service, but Douglas had shut down the SBD line, so
> >> the Navy had no choice.-
> >
> > That'd what I've read....the -1 had lots of issues which were
> > fixed (mostly) in the -3, but by then the reputation was crappy.
>
> It was still a crappy airplane. I've got the NACA report on its
> Flying Qualities. Dismal comes pretty close to covering it.
> To pull just one example - the friction in the control runs was
> so high that it took 40 lbsf of pull force to move the elevators -
> while standing still on the ground in no wind.
> The SB2C was a prewar design. It took Curtiss nearly all the war
> to beat it into marginally acceptable shape.
> By that time, the view of attack airplanes had been changing radically.
> Rather than the shipboard bombers becoming bigger versions of the
> Dantless/Helldiver formula, they became single-seat load carriers like
> the AD-1 and AM-1.
>
> --
> Pete Stickney
> Failure is not an option
> It comes bundled with the system

Which is what VB-83 in its report halfway through its 1945 deployment was
already urging. Single seater, lots of bombload, the works. (by 1945
standards, anyway)

[Keith Willshaw[_1_]]

"Peter Stickney" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:49:27 -0700, wrote:
>
..
>
> It was still a crappy airplane. I've got the NACA report on its
> Flying Qualities. Dismal comes pretty close to covering it.
> To pull just one example - the friction in the control runs was
> so high that it took 40 lbsf of pull force to move the elevators -
> while standing still on the ground in no wind.
> The SB2C was a prewar design. It took Curtiss nearly all the war
> to beat it into marginally acceptable shape.

The Fleet Air Arm had one squadron (1820 NAS) equipped with
Helldivers. After a number of fatal accidents they realised that
the problem was the elevators disintegrating on pullout. An
investigation showed elevator problems on all aircraft.

The type was permanently grounded and the squadron disbanded.

Keith

[Jim H.]

On Mar 27, 10:15*pm, Matt Wiser > wrote:

>
> There was another name that pilots called the aircraft: "Son of a
> Bitch, 2nd Class." The -1 version was the worst, but the -3 onward
> handled very well.

I saw a passage in Hugh Ambrose's "The Pacific" where he quoted a Navy
flier who flew both the 'Speedy B' and SB2C. After transitioning from
SBD's, he felt that the SB2C flew 'more like a brick than an airplane'
or words to that effect. Dunno which dash number he flew, but the
book mentioned a four-bladed prop.

Jim H.

[Matt Wiser]

On Mar 30, 8:13*am, "Jim H." > wrote:
> On Mar 27, 10:15*pm, Matt Wiser > wrote:
>
>
>
> > There was another name that pilots called the aircraft: "Son of a
> > Bitch, 2nd Class." The -1 version was the worst, but the -3 onward
> > handled very well.
>
> I saw a passage in Hugh Ambrose's "The Pacific" where he quoted a Navy
> flier who flew both the 'Speedy B' and SB2C. After transitioning from
> SBD's, he felt that the SB2C flew 'more like a brick than an airplane'
> or words to that effect. *Dunno which dash number he flew, but the
> book mentioned a four-bladed prop.
>
> Jim H.

That would be the -3 onward.

[Jack Linthicum]

On Mar 30, 1:37*pm, Matt Wiser > wrote:
> On Mar 30, 8:13*am, "Jim H." > wrote:
>
> > On Mar 27, 10:15*pm, Matt Wiser > wrote:
>
> > > There was another name that pilots called the aircraft: "Son of a
> > > Bitch, 2nd Class." The -1 version was the worst, but the -3 onward
> > > handled very well.
>
> > I saw a passage in Hugh Ambrose's "The Pacific" where he quoted a Navy
> > flier who flew both the 'Speedy B' and SB2C. After transitioning from
> > SBD's, he felt that the SB2C flew 'more like a brick than an airplane'
> > or words to that effect. *Dunno which dash number he flew, but the
> > book mentioned a four-bladed prop.
>
> > Jim H.
>
> That would be the -3 onward.


Pics at the citation

WWII-era plane ID’d
Pilot ditched Helldiver in Maalaea Bay in ’44

By ILIMA LOOMIS, Staff Writer
POSTED: April 4, 2010
Email: "WWII-era plane ID’d"
*To:

HARRY DONENFELD photo

The nose of a World War II-era Helldiver bomber rests on the ocean
floor off Maalaea. Divers have identified the wreck as a plane that
crashed during training maneuvers in 1944.

WAILUKU - A World War II-era wreck off South Maui first documented in
January has been identified as an SBC-2 Helldiver, ditched in Maalaea
Bay on a training flight by a Navy pilot in 1944.

Maritime archaeologist Hans Van Tilburg of the National Oceanic and
Atmospheric Administration dived to the site Saturday and confirmed
that it was the plane identified by two groups of private divers
separately investigating the wreck. He said the U.S. Navy was in the
process of making a plaque to mark the site, which is protected under
state and federal law, and that officials may also consider installing
a mooring nearby.

Van Tilburg said the aircraft was a rare find, not only because the
wreck was almost completely preserved, but also because there are very
few Helldivers left in existence.

"I'm definitely impressed," he said. "It's remarkably intact. I've
seen a number of aircraft like this, and this one is very intact. That
makes it very special."

When the wreck was first documented in January, it was initially
believed to be an SBD Dauntless dive bomber. But B&B Scuba Maui owner
Brad Varney, who first reported the site to government authorities
after learning about it from a local fisherman, said he realized after
visiting the wreck a second time that it was actually a Helldiver.

Today the plane rests on the sandy bottom of Maalaea Bay in about 50
feet of water, encrusted with coral and surrounded by schools of fish.

According to Navy crash records researched by private divers
investigating the site, the plane was making a dive-bombing practice
attack Aug. 31, 1944, when high-speed maneuvers damaged the tail fin
and jammed the rudder controls. With only limited ability to control
the aircraft, pilot William E. Dill, a Navy lieutenant, made a water
landing, surviving the crash without injuries.

Varney, a self-described "history nut," said it was exciting to pore
over 60-year-old crash reports and other documents as he and
colleagues pieced the story together.

"It was pretty cool," he said. "It wasn't that hard to figure out,
once you had all the records."

Maui-based documentary producer and photographer Harry Donenfeld, who
investigated the site with a group of divers from North Shore
Explorers, said he was impressed by how smoothly Dill put the plane
down in the water with only limited control. The only part of the
plane to break off was the tail fin, which had been damaged during the
maneuvers.

"Clearly he did an incredible landing," he said. "It's like he parked
it there."

According to Navy records researched by Donenfeld, Dill survived
another water landing in a Helldiver just three months later, during
the Battle of Leyte Gulf, where his flight group was assigned to the
USS Essex aircraft carrier. Leyte was the scene of the largest naval
battle during World War II, and it represented a push by the United
States to reclaim the Philippines from the imperial forces of Japan.

Donenfeld said he wanted to research more of Dill's story and hoped to
make contact with his family or people who knew him to help "fill in
the blanks."

"I would love to hear what the rest of his life was like," he said. "I
think it would put an excellent end to the story."

Van Tilburg said the wreck represents an important time in Hawaii's
history, when thousands of soldiers, sailors and pilots came to the
islands to train and prepare for war before being shipped on to the
brutal battles of the Pacific.

As special as this particular wreck may be, the Helldiver off Maalaea
is actually just one of 1,484 naval aircraft known to be lost in
waters off the Hawaiian Islands, most on training flights like the one
made by Lt. Dill, Van Tilburg said.

Pilots like Dill put their planes through extreme maneuvers to prepare
for battle, and those steep dives and sharp turns were too much for
some aircraft to take.

"That's what happened with this one particular crash - the rudder's
broken off completely," he said.

Pilots also practiced how to ditch a plane, and Van Tilburg said he'd
seen cases of pilots who'd survived three, four or even five water
landings over the course of the war.

The Helldiver was a heavy plane with a large payload, designed to
carry 1,000-pound bombs, with a large wing and tail so that it could
take off from the short decks of aircraft carriers.

"They called it 'the Big-Tailed Beast' or just 'the Beast,' " Van
Tilburg said.

While the dive site may see a rush of visitors now that its location
is public knowledge, anyone visiting the wreck should be aware that
the plane is still property of the U.S. Navy, and it's against the law
to touch or disturb the site.

"It's always exciting to dive an aircraft like that, because that was
such a significant period for the island," Van Tilburg said. "It's a
bit of history on the bottom of the ocean. I'm glad to see the dive
shops are taking a careful approach to accessing the site."

http://www.mauinews.com/page/content.detail/id/530164.html

[Ken S. Tucker]

On Apr 5, 10:26 am, Jack Linthicum >
wrote:
> On Mar 30, 1:37 pm, Matt Wiser > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 30, 8:13 am, "Jim H." > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 27, 10:15 pm, Matt Wiser > wrote:
>
> > > > There was another name that pilots called the aircraft: "Son of a
> > > > Bitch, 2nd Class." The -1 version was the worst, but the -3 onward
> > > > handled very well.
>
> > > I saw a passage in Hugh Ambrose's "The Pacific" where he quoted a Navy
> > > flier who flew both the 'Speedy B' and SB2C. After transitioning from
> > > SBD's, he felt that the SB2C flew 'more like a brick than an airplane'
> > > or words to that effect. Dunno which dash number he flew, but the
> > > book mentioned a four-bladed prop.
>
> > > Jim H.
>
> > That would be the -3 onward.
>
> Pics at the citation
>
> WWII-era plane ID’d
> Pilot ditched Helldiver in Maalaea Bay in ’44
>
> By ILIMA LOOMIS, Staff Writer
> POSTED: April 4, 2010
> Email: "WWII-era plane ID’d"
> *To:
>
> HARRY DONENFELD photo
>
> The nose of a World War II-era Helldiver bomber rests on the ocean
> floor off Maalaea. Divers have identified the wreck as a plane that
> crashed during training maneuvers in 1944.
>
> WAILUKU - A World War II-era wreck off South Maui first documented in
> January has been identified as an SBC-2 Helldiver, ditched in Maalaea
> Bay on a training flight by a Navy pilot in 1944.
>
> Maritime archaeologist Hans Van Tilburg of the National Oceanic and
> Atmospheric Administration dived to the site Saturday and confirmed
> that it was the plane identified by two groups of private divers
> separately investigating the wreck. He said the U.S. Navy was in the
> process of making a plaque to mark the site, which is protected under
> state and federal law, and that officials may also consider installing
> a mooring nearby.
>
> Van Tilburg said the aircraft was a rare find, not only because the
> wreck was almost completely preserved, but also because there are very
> few Helldivers left in existence.
>
> "I'm definitely impressed," he said. "It's remarkably intact. I've
> seen a number of aircraft like this, and this one is very intact. That
> makes it very special."
>
> When the wreck was first documented in January, it was initially
> believed to be an SBD Dauntless dive bomber. But B&B Scuba Maui owner
> Brad Varney, who first reported the site to government authorities
> after learning about it from a local fisherman, said he realized after
> visiting the wreck a second time that it was actually a Helldiver.
>
> Today the plane rests on the sandy bottom of Maalaea Bay in about 50
> feet of water, encrusted with coral and surrounded by schools of fish.
>
> According to Navy crash records researched by private divers
> investigating the site, the plane was making a dive-bombing practice
> attack Aug. 31, 1944, when high-speed maneuvers damaged the tail fin
> and jammed the rudder controls. With only limited ability to control
> the aircraft, pilot William E. Dill, a Navy lieutenant, made a water
> landing, surviving the crash without injuries.
>
> Varney, a self-described "history nut," said it was exciting to pore
> over 60-year-old crash reports and other documents as he and
> colleagues pieced the story together.
>
> "It was pretty cool," he said. "It wasn't that hard to figure out,
> once you had all the records."
>
> Maui-based documentary producer and photographer Harry Donenfeld, who
> investigated the site with a group of divers from North Shore
> Explorers, said he was impressed by how smoothly Dill put the plane
> down in the water with only limited control. The only part of the
> plane to break off was the tail fin, which had been damaged during the
> maneuvers.
>
> "Clearly he did an incredible landing," he said. "It's like he parked
> it there."
>
> According to Navy records researched by Donenfeld, Dill survived
> another water landing in a Helldiver just three months later, during
> the Battle of Leyte Gulf, where his flight group was assigned to the
> USS Essex aircraft carrier. Leyte was the scene of the largest naval
> battle during World War II, and it represented a push by the United
> States to reclaim the Philippines from the imperial forces of Japan.
>
> Donenfeld said he wanted to research more of Dill's story and hoped to
> make contact with his family or people who knew him to help "fill in
> the blanks."
>
> "I would love to hear what the rest of his life was like," he said. "I
> think it would put an excellent end to the story."
>
> Van Tilburg said the wreck represents an important time in Hawaii's
> history, when thousands of soldiers, sailors and pilots came to the
> islands to train and prepare for war before being shipped on to the
> brutal battles of the Pacific.
>
> As special as this particular wreck may be, the Helldiver off Maalaea
> is actually just one of 1,484 naval aircraft known to be lost in
> waters off the Hawaiian Islands, most on training flights like the one
> made by Lt. Dill, Van Tilburg said.
>
> Pilots like Dill put their planes through extreme maneuvers to prepare
> for battle, and those steep dives and sharp turns were too much for
> some aircraft to take.
>
> "That's what happened with this one particular crash - the rudder's
> broken off completely," he said.
>
> Pilots also practiced how to ditch a plane, and Van Tilburg said he'd
> seen cases of pilots who'd survived three, four or even five water
> landings over the course of the war.
>
> The Helldiver was a heavy plane with a large payload, designed to
> carry 1,000-pound bombs, with a large wing and tail so that it could
> take off from the short decks of aircraft carriers.
>
> "They called it 'the Big-Tailed Beast' or just 'the Beast,' " Van
> Tilburg said.
>
> While the dive site may see a rush of visitors now that its location
> is public knowledge, anyone visiting the wreck should be aware that
> the plane is still property of the U.S. Navy, and it's against the law
> to touch or disturb the site.
>
> "It's always exciting to dive an aircraft like that, because that was
> such a significant period for the island," Van Tilburg said. "It's a
> bit of history on the bottom of the ocean. I'm glad to see the dive
> shops are taking a careful approach to accessing the site."
>
> http://www.mauinews.com/page/content.detail/id/530164.html

I'll confess to finding this humorous,
"just one of 1,484 naval aircraft known to be lost in
waters off the Hawaiian Islands"
(I wonder how many 'non-naval' a/c there are).
Is that really true?
The Japs didn't need an airforce, just a guy in a row boat with a pair
of binoculars counting splashes!
Ken

[Matt Wiser]

On Apr 5, 10:26*am, Jack Linthicum >
wrote:
> On Mar 30, 1:37*pm, Matt Wiser > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 30, 8:13*am, "Jim H." > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 27, 10:15*pm, Matt Wiser > wrote:
>
> > > > There was another name that pilots called the aircraft: "Son of a
> > > > Bitch, 2nd Class." The -1 version was the worst, but the -3 onward
> > > > handled very well.
>
> > > I saw a passage in Hugh Ambrose's "The Pacific" where he quoted a Navy
> > > flier who flew both the 'Speedy B' and SB2C. After transitioning from
> > > SBD's, he felt that the SB2C flew 'more like a brick than an airplane'
> > > or words to that effect. *Dunno which dash number he flew, but the
> > > book mentioned a four-bladed prop.
>
> > > Jim H.
>
> > That would be the -3 onward.
>
> Pics at the citation
>
> WWII-era plane ID’d
> Pilot ditched Helldiver in Maalaea Bay in ’44
>
> By ILIMA LOOMIS, Staff Writer
> POSTED: April 4, 2010
> Email: "WWII-era plane ID’d"
> *To:
>
> HARRY DONENFELD photo
>
> The nose of a World War II-era Helldiver bomber rests on the ocean
> floor off Maalaea. Divers have identified the wreck as a plane that
> crashed during training maneuvers in 1944.
>
> WAILUKU - A World War II-era wreck off South Maui first documented in
> January has been identified as an SBC-2 Helldiver, ditched in Maalaea
> Bay on a training flight by a Navy pilot in 1944.
>
> Maritime archaeologist Hans Van Tilburg of the National Oceanic and
> Atmospheric Administration dived to the site Saturday and confirmed
> that it was the plane identified by two groups of private divers
> separately investigating the wreck. He said the U.S. Navy was in the
> process of making a plaque to mark the site, which is protected under
> state and federal law, and that officials may also consider installing
> a mooring nearby.
>
> Van Tilburg said the aircraft was a rare find, not only because the
> wreck was almost completely preserved, but also because there are very
> few Helldivers left in existence.
>
> "I'm definitely impressed," he said. "It's remarkably intact. I've
> seen a number of aircraft like this, and this one is very intact. That
> makes it very special."
>
> When the wreck was first documented in January, it was initially
> believed to be an SBD Dauntless dive bomber. But B&B Scuba Maui owner
> Brad Varney, who first reported the site to government authorities
> after learning about it from a local fisherman, said he realized after
> visiting the wreck a second time that it was actually a Helldiver.
>
> Today the plane rests on the sandy bottom of Maalaea Bay in about 50
> feet of water, encrusted with coral and surrounded by schools of fish.
>
> According to Navy crash records researched by private divers
> investigating the site, the plane was making a dive-bombing practice
> attack Aug. 31, 1944, when high-speed maneuvers damaged the tail fin
> and jammed the rudder controls. With only limited ability to control
> the aircraft, pilot William E. Dill, a Navy lieutenant, made a water
> landing, surviving the crash without injuries.
>
> Varney, a self-described "history nut," said it was exciting to pore
> over 60-year-old crash reports and other documents as he and
> colleagues pieced the story together.
>
> "It was pretty cool," he said. "It wasn't that hard to figure out,
> once you had all the records."
>
> Maui-based documentary producer and photographer Harry Donenfeld, who
> investigated the site with a group of divers from North Shore
> Explorers, said he was impressed by how smoothly Dill put the plane
> down in the water with only limited control. The only part of the
> plane to break off was the tail fin, which had been damaged during the
> maneuvers.
>
> "Clearly he did an incredible landing," he said. "It's like he parked
> it there."
>
> According to Navy records researched by Donenfeld, Dill survived
> another water landing in a Helldiver just three months later, during
> the Battle of Leyte Gulf, where his flight group was assigned to the
> USS Essex aircraft carrier. Leyte was the scene of the largest naval
> battle during World War II, and it represented a push by the United
> States to reclaim the Philippines from the imperial forces of Japan.
>
> Donenfeld said he wanted to research more of Dill's story and hoped to
> make contact with his family or people who knew him to help "fill in
> the blanks."
>
> "I would love to hear what the rest of his life was like," he said. "I
> think it would put an excellent end to the story."
>
> Van Tilburg said the wreck represents an important time in Hawaii's
> history, when thousands of soldiers, sailors and pilots came to the
> islands to train and prepare for war before being shipped on to the
> brutal battles of the Pacific.
>
> As special as this particular wreck may be, the Helldiver off Maalaea
> is actually just one of 1,484 naval aircraft known to be lost in
> waters off the Hawaiian Islands, most on training flights like the one
> made by Lt. Dill, Van Tilburg said.
>
> Pilots like Dill put their planes through extreme maneuvers to prepare
> for battle, and those steep dives and sharp turns were too much for
> some aircraft to take.
>
> "That's what happened with this one particular crash - the rudder's
> broken off completely," he said.
>
> Pilots also practiced how to ditch a plane, and Van Tilburg said he'd
> seen cases of pilots who'd survived three, four or even five water
> landings over the course of the war.
>
> The Helldiver was a heavy plane with a large payload, designed to
> carry 1,000-pound bombs, with a large wing and tail so that it could
> take off from the short decks of aircraft carriers.
>
> "They called it 'the Big-Tailed Beast' or just 'the Beast,' " Van
> Tilburg said.
>
> While the dive site may see a rush of visitors now that its location
> is public knowledge, anyone visiting the wreck should be aware that
> the plane is still property of the U.S. Navy, and it's against the law
> to touch or disturb the site.
>
> "It's always exciting to dive an aircraft like that, because that was
> such a significant period for the island," Van Tilburg said. "It's a
> bit of history on the bottom of the ocean. I'm glad to see the dive
> shops are taking a careful approach to accessing the site."
>
> http://www.mauinews.com/page/content.detail/id/530164.html- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

What gets me is that when the plane's intact and in fresh water (such
as the Great Lakes), the Navy steps in and prevents salvage,
especially by those who'd like to restore the aircraft and fly it.
There's a whole hangar at NAS Pensacola of aircraft (I've seen F4Fs
and SBDs in the picture of the hangar) that were pulled from the Great
Lakes by private parties and the Navy comes in and takes the aircraft.
If there were human remains in or near the plane, the plane ought to
be left alone, but if there's no remains, let the warbird folks
salvage the plane, and if they can restore it to flyable condition,
let 'em. There's only one flying Helldiver, if some in the lakes could
be recovered and restored, there might be more. Same thing for TBMs,
F6Fs, etc.

[Peter Stickney[_2_]]

On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 19:22:50 -0700, Matt Wiser wrote:


<El snippo grande>
>> http://www.mauinews.com/page/content.detail/id/530164.html- Hide quoted
>> text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> What gets me is that when the plane's intact and in fresh water (such as
> the Great Lakes), the Navy steps in and prevents salvage, especially by
> those who'd like to restore the aircraft and fly it. There's a whole
> hangar at NAS Pensacola of aircraft (I've seen F4Fs and SBDs in the
> picture of the hangar) that were pulled from the Great Lakes by private
> parties and the Navy comes in and takes the aircraft. If there were
> human remains in or near the plane, the plane ought to be left alone,
> but if there's no remains, let the warbird folks salvage the plane, and
> if they can restore it to flyable condition, let 'em. There's only one
> flying Helldiver, if some in the lakes could be recovered and restored,
> there might be more. Same thing for TBMs, F6Fs, etc.

Well, if it's an actual SBC-2 (The prewar biplane dive bomber)
rather than an SB2C (The article quoted is mixed)
then it's worth raising - there aren't any in captivity that I know of.

As for the Navy going after the fresh-water wrecks, there's a provision
in Marine Salvage Law that states that military equipment on the bottom
is still owned by whatever military it belonged to when it was lost.

--
Pete Stickney
Failure is not an option
It comes bundled with the system

[Matt Wiser]

On Apr 14, 12:27*am, Peter Stickney > wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 19:22:50 -0700, Matt Wiser wrote:
>
> <El snippo grande>
>
>
>
>
>
> >>http://www.mauinews.com/page/content.detail/id/530164.html-Hide quoted
> >> text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > What gets me is that when the plane's intact and in fresh water (such as
> > the Great Lakes), the Navy steps in and prevents salvage, especially by
> > those who'd like to restore the aircraft and fly it. There's a whole
> > hangar at NAS Pensacola of aircraft (I've seen F4Fs and SBDs in the
> > picture of the hangar) that were pulled from the Great Lakes by private
> > parties and the Navy comes in and takes the aircraft. If there were
> > human remains in or near the plane, the plane ought to be left alone,
> > but if there's no remains, let the warbird folks salvage the plane, and
> > if they can restore it to flyable condition, let 'em. There's only one
> > flying Helldiver, if some in the lakes could be recovered and restored,
> > there might be more. Same thing for TBMs, F6Fs, etc.
>
> Well, if it's an actual SBC-2 (The prewar biplane dive bomber)
> rather than an SB2C (The article quoted is mixed)
> then it's worth raising - there aren't any in captivity that I know of.
>
> As for the Navy going after the fresh-water wrecks, there's a provision
> in Marine Salvage Law that states that military equipment on the bottom
> is still owned by whatever military it belonged to when it was lost. *
>
> --
> Pete Stickney
> Failure is not an option
> It comes bundled with the system- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The AF doesn't seem to go after those who recover wrecks in fresh
water...ISTR reading about a P-51 that was found in a lake in Montana
back in the '80s. It was salvaged, restored, and is now flying. And
the AF didn't raise any stink about the salvage, they only asked if
there were human remains found. When none were, the AF said "go
ahead." The Navy's attitude,even if there's no human remains found in
or near the wreck, is "It was ours then, it's ours now."