Sgs 1-35 Polars for SeeYou Mobile

[Randy[_2_]]

A friend of mine has a Schweizer 1-35 and we need to find the
correct polar numbers to put into his SeeYou Mobile program.

Thanks for your help.

Randy

http://talihinasoaring.com/

[mike]

On Mar 31, 8:14*pm, Randy > wrote:
> A friend of mine has a Schweizer 1-35 and we need to find the
> correct polar numbers to put into his SeeYou Mobile program.
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Randy
>
> http://talihinasoaring.com/


Randy,

I would use the flight test info Dick Johnson measured for two 1-35's.
Found on the SSA website.

Mike

[Randy[_2_]]

Mike,
I do not understand what to enter on the SeeYou Mobile
Polar setting page. There are six available boxes.
Name Sgs 1-35
Min Load - 6.38
Stall Speed - 43 mph
a -
b -
c -

I do not know what goes in a, b, c boxes.
Even when I look at the polars for my own
glider, I do not understand what the numbers
mean.

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

I have a Schweizer 1-35A polar on my Polars page.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/polars.htm

That page also has some spreadsheets that can be used to calculate the a, b
and c coefficients used by SeeYou and SeeYou Mobile. You can enter your own
polar data into the spreadsheets or use the polar data from the web site.

The page also has 3 pairs of airspeed and sink rate for very glider type
which can be used in SeeYou on the PC to calculate the SeeYou a, b, and c
coefficients.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

"Randy" > wrote in message
...
>A friend of mine has a Schweizer 1-35 and we need to find the
> correct polar numbers to put into his SeeYou Mobile program.
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Randy
>
> http://talihinasoaring.com/

[Mike[_8_]]

On Mar 31, 9:50*pm, Randy > wrote:
> Mike,
> I do not understand what to enter on the SeeYou Mobile
> Polar setting page. There are six available boxes.
> Name Sgs 1-35
> Min Load - 6.38
> Stall Speed - 43 mph
> a -
> b -
> c -
>
> I do not know what goes in a, b, c boxes.
> Even when I look at the polars for my own
> glider, I do not understand what the numbers
> mean.

Randy,

I do not use See You mobile but the three entries should allow for
sink rate at speed- in metric. If there are entry windows for both
sink rate and speed, then...

a-Best L/D or L/D sink rate and the speed it happens or
36.8-1 L/D or sink of .7 m/s @ 92 kph


b-Two meter sink rate and speed it happens or
2 m/s @ 148 kph

c-one higher speed sink rate/speed setting, say 3 meter/sec.
3 m/s @ 176 kph

These numbers should be close and work ok as far as an accurate
polar.

Mike

[Mike[_8_]]

On Mar 31, 9:50*pm, Randy > wrote:
> Mike,
> I do not understand what to enter on the SeeYou Mobile
> Polar setting page. There are six available boxes.
> Name Sgs 1-35
> Min Load - 6.38
> Stall Speed - 43 mph
> a -
> b -
> c -
>
> I do not know what goes in a, b, c boxes.
> Even when I look at the polars for my own
> glider, I do not understand what the numbers
> mean.

If I entered the data correctly into Paul's spreadsheet, and the
conversion from a cambridge file to a See you file is correct, the
data supplied by Dick Johnson's actual test polar at his weight is ...

a= 2.1
b= -4.4
c= 3.2

[Paul Remde]

Hi Mike,

Those numbers look like they may be correct. Hopefully, when you enter
those numbers into SeeYou Mobile, it displays the correct glide ratio and
other data.

If you send me the 3 airspeed and sink rate pairs (with the lowest speed one
at the best L/D speed). I would be glad to put them onto my Polars web
site. I will also need to know the wing loading at which the numbers were
obtained.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde

"Mike" > wrote in message
...
On Mar 31, 9:50 pm, Randy > wrote:
> Mike,
> I do not understand what to enter on the SeeYou Mobile
> Polar setting page. There are six available boxes.
> Name Sgs 1-35
> Min Load - 6.38
> Stall Speed - 43 mph
> a -
> b -
> c -
>
> I do not know what goes in a, b, c boxes.
> Even when I look at the polars for my own
> glider, I do not understand what the numbers
> mean.

If I entered the data correctly into Paul's spreadsheet, and the
conversion from a cambridge file to a See you file is correct, the
data supplied by Dick Johnson's actual test polar at his weight is ...

a= 2.1
b= -4.4
c= 3.2

[AGL]

On Mar 31, 10:14*pm, Randy > wrote:
> A friend of mine has a Schweizer 1-35 and we need to find the
> correct polar numbers to put into his SeeYou Mobile program.

Check which of the three models of 1-35 it is. Numbers for a "C"
that doesn't retract are different. There are very clear graphs of the
polars updated in 2002 in the latest Flight Manual. There are not
too many "A" models, so I'm not sure about that one since the Flight
Manual doesn't specify differences in the polar. See
http://members.goldengate.net/~tmrent/soar/docs/135/types135.htm

I use the following numbers are for a "regular" 1-35 with a
retractable wheel. The numbers are good for final glides from 5 nm
out, dry @ 685# (We have low cloud bases here) I use
"SoarPilot," but a polar is a polar. Your mileage may vary given the
wide range of wing finishes I've seen on 1-35's.

53 kts -1.42 kts
82 kts -3.5 kts
109 kts -7.58

Be careful with that "stall speed" number. It can vary from 30 kts to
56 kts, depending on model, flap settings, and ballast. Check page 10
of the Flight Manual.

ms

[Andy[_10_]]

On Apr 1, 6:13*am, AGL > wrote:
> On Mar 31, 10:14*pm, Randy > wrote:
>
> > A friend of mine has a Schweizer 1-35 and we need to find the
> > correct polar numbers to put into his SeeYou Mobile program.
>
> Check which of the three models of 1-35 it is. * Numbers for a "C"
> that doesn't retract are different. There are very clear graphs of the
> polars updated in 2002 in the latest Flight Manual. * There are not
> too many "A" models, so I'm not sure about that one since the Flight
> Manual doesn't specify differences in the polar. *Seehttp://members.goldengate.net/~tmrent/soar/docs/135/types135.htm
>
> I use the following numbers are for a "regular" 1-35 with a
> retractable wheel. The numbers are good for final glides from 5 nm
> out, dry @ 685# * * (We have low cloud bases here) * I use
> "SoarPilot," but a polar is a polar. *Your mileage may vary given the
> wide range of wing finishes I've seen on 1-35's.
>
> 53 kts *-1.42 kts
> 82 kts -3.5 kts
> 109 kts -7.58
>
> Be careful with that "stall speed" number. *It can vary from 30 kts to
> 56 kts, depending on model, flap settings, and ballast. *Check page 10
> of the Flight Manual.
>
> ms

Wow - be careful what you put into your glide calculator. You have a
lot riding on it, like your butt.

First of all, units matter. SeeYou accepts as settings a variety of
units for airspeed and vertical speed. The manual doesn't appear to
say this explicitly, but I believe you need to enter coefficients for
the polar derived from the same system of units you specify in
SeeYou's settings.

Second, a,b and c are the coefficients of a quadratic curve that is a
best fit for the glider polar. You generate this quadratic by picking
three points off the polar - preferably for speeds that you typically
fly. Best L/D, medium cruise, fast cruise, for example. Pick speeds
for no water ballast - the computer can figure out the ballast
effects. The three pairs of speeds, plugged into the generic quadratic
formula y=ax^2+bx+c will give you three equations with three unknowns,
which you can solve using high school algebra. I suspect this is what
Paul's spreadsheet does.

If you are using knots as the units for airspeed and vertical speed
then the above pairs of polar coordinates yield:

a -0.0014
b 0.1197
c -3.7796

This gives a polar with a best L/D of 37 at 52 knots, an L/D of 25 at
80 knots and an L/D of 17 at 100 knots.

You should check the calculations and figures yourself to ensure they
are correct as I have not looked at a polar directly and it's your
friend's but that will end up short of the airfield on final glide if
there are errors in the data or the math.

Hope that helps,

9B

[Mike[_8_]]

Paul,

Actually I entered the data in your conversion spreadsheet as a
Cambridge Polar File and then posted the resulting See You data
points.

Using the best L/D and speed and the 2 meter sink rate at speed, when
I checked the resulting generated polar, it was pretty close to the
Johnson measured polar. Close enough that I would fly with it.

Best L/D was actually measured at 36.8 @ 92 kph and the 2 meter sink
speed @ 148kph. Test weight was 315.2 kg.





On Apr 1, 6:13*am, "Paul Remde" > wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>
> Those numbers look like they may be correct. *Hopefully, when you enter
> those numbers into SeeYou Mobile, it displays the correct glide ratio and
> other data.
>
> If you send me the 3 airspeed and sink rate pairs (with the lowest speed one
> at the best L/D speed). *I would be glad to put them onto my Polars web
> site. *I will also need to know the wing loading at which the numbers were
> obtained.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Paul Remde
>
> "Mike" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Mar 31, 9:50 pm, Randy > wrote:
>
> > Mike,
> > I do not understand what to enter on the SeeYou Mobile
> > Polar setting page. There are six available boxes.
> > Name Sgs 1-35
> > Min Load - 6.38
> > Stall Speed - 43 mph
> > a -
> > b -
> > c -
>
> > I do not know what goes in a, b, c boxes.
> > Even when I look at the polars for my own
> > glider, I do not understand what the numbers
> > mean.
>
> If I entered the data correctly into Paul's spreadsheet, and the
> conversion from a cambridge file to a See you *file is correct, the
> data supplied by Dick Johnson's actual test polar at his weight is ...
>
> a= 2.1
> b= -4.4
> c= 3.2

[Wayne Paul]

I like Mike Borgelt's approach. Collect the data for your glider during a couple test flight and enter the data into his free software to determine the quadratic equation A, B, and C values.
http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/software_utilities.html#Polar



"Mike" > wrote in message ...
Paul,

Actually I entered the data in your conversion spreadsheet as a
Cambridge Polar File and then posted the resulting See You data
points.

Using the best L/D and speed and the 2 meter sink rate at speed, when
I checked the resulting generated polar, it was pretty close to the
Johnson measured polar. Close enough that I would fly with it.

Best L/D was actually measured at 36.8 @ 92 kph and the 2 meter sink
speed @ 148kph. Test weight was 315.2 kg.





On Apr 1, 6:13 am, "Paul Remde" > wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>
> Those numbers look like they may be correct. Hopefully, when you enter
> those numbers into SeeYou Mobile, it displays the correct glide ratio and
> other data.
>
> If you send me the 3 airspeed and sink rate pairs (with the lowest speed one
> at the best L/D speed). I would be glad to put them onto my Polars web
> site. I will also need to know the wing loading at which the numbers were
> obtained.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Paul Remde
>
> "Mike" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Mar 31, 9:50 pm, Randy > wrote:
>
> > Mike,
> > I do not understand what to enter on the SeeYou Mobile
> > Polar setting page. There are six available boxes.
> > Name Sgs 1-35
> > Min Load - 6.38
> > Stall Speed - 43 mph
> > a -
> > b -
> > c -
>
> > I do not know what goes in a, b, c boxes.
> > Even when I look at the polars for my own
> > glider, I do not understand what the numbers
> > mean.
>
> If I entered the data correctly into Paul's spreadsheet, and the
> conversion from a cambridge file to a See you file is correct, the
> data supplied by Dick Johnson's actual test polar at his weight is ...
>
> a= 2.1
> b= -4.4
> c= 3.2

[Darryl Ramm]

On Apr 1, 7:19*am, Andy > wrote:
> On Apr 1, 6:13*am, AGL > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 31, 10:14*pm, Randy > wrote:
>
> > > A friend of mine has a Schweizer 1-35 and we need to find the
> > > correct polar numbers to put into his SeeYou Mobile program.
>
> > Check which of the three models of 1-35 it is. * Numbers for a "C"
> > that doesn't retract are different. There are very clear graphs of the
> > polars updated in 2002 in the latest Flight Manual. * There are not
> > too many "A" models, so I'm not sure about that one since the Flight
> > Manual doesn't specify differences in the polar. *Seehttp://members.goldengate.net/~tmrent/soar/docs/135/types135.htm
>
> > I use the following numbers are for a "regular" 1-35 with a
> > retractable wheel. The numbers are good for final glides from 5 nm
> > out, dry @ 685# * * (We have low cloud bases here) * I use
> > "SoarPilot," but a polar is a polar. *Your mileage may vary given the
> > wide range of wing finishes I've seen on 1-35's.
>
> > 53 kts *-1.42 kts
> > 82 kts -3.5 kts
> > 109 kts -7.58
>
> > Be careful with that "stall speed" number. *It can vary from 30 kts to
> > 56 kts, depending on model, flap settings, and ballast. *Check page 10
> > of the Flight Manual.
>
> > ms
>
> Wow - be careful what you put into your glide calculator. You have a
> lot riding on it, like your butt.
>
> First of all, units matter. SeeYou accepts as settings a variety of
> units for airspeed and vertical speed. The manual doesn't appear to
> say this explicitly, but I believe you need to enter coefficients for
> the polar derived from the same system of units you specify in
> SeeYou's settings.
>
> Second, a,b and c are the coefficients of a quadratic curve that is a
> best fit for the glider polar. *You generate this quadratic by picking
> three points off the polar - preferably for speeds that you typically
> fly. Best L/D, medium cruise, fast cruise, for example. Pick speeds
> for no water ballast - the computer can figure out the ballast
> effects. The three pairs of speeds, plugged into the generic quadratic
> formula y=ax^2+bx+c will give you three equations with three unknowns,
> which you can solve using high school algebra. I suspect this is what
> Paul's spreadsheet does.
>
> If you are using knots as the units for airspeed and vertical speed
> then the above pairs of polar coordinates yield:
>
> a * * * -0.0014
> b * * * 0.1197
> c * * * -3.7796
>
> This gives a polar with a best L/D of 37 at 52 knots, an L/D of 25 at
> 80 knots and an L/D of 17 at 100 knots.
>
> You should check the calculations and figures yourself to ensure they
> are correct as I have not looked at a polar directly and it's your
> friend's but that will end up short of the airfield on final glide if
> there are errors in the data or the math.
>
> Hope that helps,
>
> 9B

While the units of sink and speed matter the convention is to use the
a, b, c quadratic coefficients with sink in m/s and speed in km/h.
Changing the units that SeeYou Mobile or SeeYou uses won't change the
values of a, b or c that you need to enter.

The Polar dialog in SeeYou (not SeeYou Mobile) has a little calculator
built in where you can enter sink vs. speed numbers and derive a, b, c
coefficients or visa versa. There the sink/speed numbers are dependent
on the display units selected but SeeYou must be internally converting
to standard units to calculate the a, b, c. Andrej can kick me if I'm
wrong.

Paul's spreadheet is very handy.

Darryl




Darryl

[Nine Bravo Ground]

On Apr 1, 11:40*am, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Apr 1, 7:19*am, Andy > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 1, 6:13*am, AGL > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 31, 10:14*pm, Randy > wrote:
>
> > > > A friend of mine has a Schweizer 1-35 and we need to find the
> > > > correct polar numbers to put into his SeeYou Mobile program.
>
> > > Check which of the three models of 1-35 it is. * Numbers for a "C"
> > > that doesn't retract are different. There are very clear graphs of the
> > > polars updated in 2002 in the latest Flight Manual. * There are not
> > > too many "A" models, so I'm not sure about that one since the Flight
> > > Manual doesn't specify differences in the polar. *Seehttp://members..goldengate.net/~tmrent/soar/docs/135/types135.htm
>
> > > I use the following numbers are for a "regular" 1-35 with a
> > > retractable wheel. The numbers are good for final glides from 5 nm
> > > out, dry @ 685# * * (We have low cloud bases here) * I use
> > > "SoarPilot," but a polar is a polar. *Your mileage may vary given the
> > > wide range of wing finishes I've seen on 1-35's.
>
> > > 53 kts *-1.42 kts
> > > 82 kts -3.5 kts
> > > 109 kts -7.58
>
> > > Be careful with that "stall speed" number. *It can vary from 30 kts to
> > > 56 kts, depending on model, flap settings, and ballast. *Check page 10
> > > of the Flight Manual.
>
> > > ms
>
> > Wow - be careful what you put into your glide calculator. You have a
> > lot riding on it, like your butt.
>
> > First of all, units matter. SeeYou accepts as settings a variety of
> > units for airspeed and vertical speed. The manual doesn't appear to
> > say this explicitly, but I believe you need to enter coefficients for
> > the polar derived from the same system of units you specify in
> > SeeYou's settings.
>
> > Second, a,b and c are the coefficients of a quadratic curve that is a
> > best fit for the glider polar. *You generate this quadratic by picking
> > three points off the polar - preferably for speeds that you typically
> > fly. Best L/D, medium cruise, fast cruise, for example. Pick speeds
> > for no water ballast - the computer can figure out the ballast
> > effects. The three pairs of speeds, plugged into the generic quadratic
> > formula y=ax^2+bx+c will give you three equations with three unknowns,
> > which you can solve using high school algebra. I suspect this is what
> > Paul's spreadsheet does.
>
> > If you are using knots as the units for airspeed and vertical speed
> > then the above pairs of polar coordinates yield:
>
> > a * * * -0.0014
> > b * * * 0.1197
> > c * * * -3.7796
>
> > This gives a polar with a best L/D of 37 at 52 knots, an L/D of 25 at
> > 80 knots and an L/D of 17 at 100 knots.
>
> > You should check the calculations and figures yourself to ensure they
> > are correct as I have not looked at a polar directly and it's your
> > friend's but that will end up short of the airfield on final glide if
> > there are errors in the data or the math.
>
> > Hope that helps,
>
> > 9B
>
> While the units of sink and speed matter the convention is to use the
> a, b, c quadratic coefficients with sink in m/s and speed in km/h.
> Changing the units that SeeYou Mobile or SeeYou uses won't change the
> values of a, b or c that you need to enter.
>
> The Polar dialog in SeeYou (not SeeYou Mobile) has a little calculator
> built in where you can enter sink vs. speed numbers and derive a, b, c
> coefficients or visa versa. There the sink/speed numbers are dependent
> on the display units selected but SeeYou must be internally converting
> to standard units to calculate the a, b, c. Andrej can kick me if I'm
> wrong.
>
> Paul's spreadheet is very handy.
>
> Darryl
>
> Darryl

Good catch Darryl.

On that basis I believe the values are:

a -0.00015
b 0.0125
c -0.5905

Of course it's RAS so you should do your own math.

9B

[Darryl Ramm]

On Apr 1, 9:15*am, "Wayne Paul" > wrote:
> I like Mike Borgelt's approach. *Collect the data for your glider during a couple test flight and enter the data into his free software to determine the quadratic equation A, B, and C values.http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/software_utilities.html#Polar
>
> "Mike" > wrote in ...
>
> Paul,
>
> Actually I entered the data in your conversion spreadsheet as a
> Cambridge Polar File and then posted the resulting See You data
> points.
>
> Using the best L/D and speed and the 2 meter sink rate at speed, when
> I checked the resulting generated polar, it was pretty close to the
> Johnson measured polar. Close enough that I would fly with it.
>
> Best L/D was actually measured at 36.8 @ 92 kph and the 2 meter sink
> speed @ 148kph. Test weight was 315.2 kg.
>
> On Apr 1, 6:13 am, "Paul Remde" > wrote:
>
> > Hi Mike,
>
> > Those numbers look like they may be correct. Hopefully, when you enter
> > those numbers into SeeYou Mobile, it displays the correct glide ratio and
> > other data.
>
> > If you send me the 3 airspeed and sink rate pairs (with the lowest speed one
> > at the best L/D speed). I would be glad to put them onto my Polars web
> > site. I will also need to know the wing loading at which the numbers were
> > obtained.
>
> > Best Regards,
>
> > Paul Remde
>
> > "Mike" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> > On Mar 31, 9:50 pm, Randy > wrote:
>
> > > Mike,
> > > I do not understand what to enter on the SeeYou Mobile
> > > Polar setting page. There are six available boxes.
> > > Name Sgs 1-35
> > > Min Load - 6.38
> > > Stall Speed - 43 mph
> > > a -
> > > b -
> > > c -
>
> > > I do not know what goes in a, b, c boxes.
> > > Even when I look at the polars for my own
> > > glider, I do not understand what the numbers
> > > mean.
>
> > If I entered the data correctly into Paul's spreadsheet, and the
> > conversion from a cambridge file to a See you file is correct, the
> > data supplied by Dick Johnson's actual test polar at his weight is ...
>
> > a= 2.1
> > b= -4.4
> > c= 3.2
>
>

I just want to point out that if you have SeeYou Mobile you probably
have SeeYou and then all you need are sink numbers at three reasonably
spaced speeds and SeeYou (the desktop program not SeeYou Mobile) can
create the polar itself from these.

For sake of argument lots lock in on a fixed set of numbers and see
what the a,b,c parameters for SeeYou Mobile turn out to be.

Lets use the sink measurments of....

Airspeed Sink
53kts 1.42kts
82kts 3.50kts
109kts 7.58kts

Assume these measurements made at a weight of 685lb and a wing area of
103.8 ft2 (from wikipedia) gives a wing loading "as flown" of 6.60lb/
ft2. The wing loading is not needed to calculate the a b c parameters
but it does affect how they scale at other weights. In SeeYou and
SeeYou Mobile the "minimum weight" is a bit of a misnomer - it is
really the weight as flown that gives the sink numbers we are using. I
think this leads to some common mistakes. By just working with wing-
loading SeeYou and SeeYou Mobile easily scales the polar for different
wing loadings.

So now in SeeYou (not SeeYou Mobile) go to Tools>Polar and click the
"Add" button. SeeYou will create a new polar with Glider Type called
"default".

Change the Glide Type field to "SGS 1-35" or whatever you want.

In the minimum load field type "6.60lb/f2" -- Enter exactly what is
between the quotation marks. SeeYou is smart and will let you mix and
match different units you want in all these fields and just entering
the right unit names after the numeric values.

In the stall speed field type "37kts" (but stall speed does not get
used to calculate the a, b, c parameters.).

In the 1) row type "53kts" in the first field and "1.42kts" (not
"-1.42kts" and not "1.42" - since SeeYou may assume different units).
Then in the 2) row fields type "82kts" and "3.5kts" and in the 3)
row type "109kts" and "7.58kts"

As you enter these data pairs the Polar dialog box calculates the a,
b and c polar coefficients as

a 2.12491
b -3.3237
c 1.94564

(extra silly precision shown to show exactly what I get).

And Andy I should have made it clearer that the a, b, c coefficients
assume speed in km/h and sink in m/s but the convention here is to
scale the speed in km/h divided by 100 to get more convenient
coefficients.

Paul Remde's polar calculating spreadsheets in the "Polar Adjustment
and Conversion Spreadsheets" section at http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/polars.htm
will do these same calculations and have the benefit of showing nice
graphs etc. But I wanted to point out SeeYou can do a lot itself. The
SeeYou polar UI us a bit confusing at first until you realize you can
enter the units with the numbers.

Darryl

[Randy[_2_]]

I want to thank everyone for their help with my
question. It is very much appreciated!

Randy