Military aviation mishaps

[Mike]

from Navy Times of February 23, 2004 p.32
"Cockpit errors, op tempo cited as air-mishaps cause"

Aviation mishaps, 1980-2003.
the number of Class A aircraft mishaps - those involving loss of life
or more than $1 million in damage - dropped from 1980 to 2001 but
spiked over the past two years of the war on terrorism. The services
mishap rates since 1980:

Service Total Rate*
Navy 821 2.33
Air Force 1,010 1.46
Army 603 1.80
Marine Corps 369 4.07
DOD 2,803 2.41

*Class A mishaps per 100,000 flight hours

Mike

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 2/20/04 2:49 PM, in article
, "Mike"
> wrote:

> from Navy Times of February 23, 2004 p.32
> "Cockpit errors, op tempo cited as air-mishaps cause"
>
> Aviation mishaps, 1980-2003.
> the number of Class A aircraft mishaps - those involving loss of life
> or more than $1 million in damage - dropped from 1980 to 2001 but
> spiked over the past two years of the war on terrorism. The services
> mishap rates since 1980:
>
> Service Total Rate*
> Navy 821 2.33
> Air Force 1,010 1.46
> Army 603 1.80
> Marine Corps 369 4.07
> DOD 2,803 2.41
>
> *Class A mishaps per 100,000 flight hours
>
> Mike

I'm not sure if I agree about the case for OPTEMPO.

A few years ago, the Navy's Safety Center put out a brief on the subject
that broke out mishaps by their major causal factors.

They concluded that through NATOPS, superior training, and SOP's the Navy
had driven its mishap rate down significantly and that the least experienced
pilots were in the groups with the highest mishap rates.

They cited lack of flight time as one reason why these pilots were morting
themselves and banging up more airplanes. To me, higher OPTEMPO means
higher flight time. You can blame high OPTEMPO for low retention, but not
necessarily for more mishaps.

Culturally, the brief also cited a greater propensity for Navy and Marine
Corps pilots to willfully violate SOP or FAR's than their Army or Air Force
counterparts. (Although anecdotally, I can come up with an example or two
of why I doubt that's true.)

--Woody

[WaltBJ]

"Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message >...
>SNIP>
> Culturally, the brief also cited a greater propensity for Navy and Marine
> Corps pilots to willfully violate SOP or FAR's than their Army or Air Force
> counterparts. (Although anecdotally, I can come up with an example or two
> of why I doubt that's true.)>
> --Woody

SNIP -

So can I. Perhaps (undoubtedy) USAF and even Army aircrews are more cunning.
One has to be caught to be charged with a violation.
Walt BJ

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 2/21/04 11:06 PM, in article
, "WaltBJ"
> wrote:

> "Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
> >...
>> SNIP>
>> Culturally, the brief also cited a greater propensity for Navy and Marine
>> Corps pilots to willfully violate SOP or FAR's than their Army or Air Force
>> counterparts. (Although anecdotally, I can come up with an example or two
>> of why I doubt that's true.)>
>> --Woody
>
> SNIP -
>
> So can I. Perhaps (undoubtedy) USAF and even Army aircrews are more cunning.
> One has to be caught to be charged with a violation.
> Walt BJ

I guess I'm not the only one who sees it that way.

I know of an F-16 pilot who morted himself a few years back while doing a
loop over a relative's farm. During an impromptu airshow, he didn't leave
enough vertical airspace underneath his jet to complete the back-side of a
loop and pancaked in just short of "airshow center."

The SIR (or whatever the USAF guys call) acknowledged that he had done quite
a bit of flat-hatting (even in two-seat aircraft) during his (nearly 17
year) career but stated that his commanders never knew it. Apparently,
commanders don't have all the tools to know what their pilots are doing
because their JO's are doing a great job of covering up.

Curiously enough, the SIR also discussed extensively his poor technique over
the top of the loop that ultimately lead to his demise.

Anecdotal evidence, yes, but I think their corporate cover up makes sense
culturally because of the USAF's very tight regulation and zero tolerance
for mistakes.

Bottom line for me: As long as imperfect humans are designing, building,
fixing, and flying airplanes, we'll be crashing them. The best you can do
is minimize the mishap rates, but at some point, you must accept SOME low
number.

[Joe Delphi]

>
> Anecdotal evidence, yes, but I think their corporate cover up makes sense
> culturally because of the USAF's very tight regulation and zero tolerance
> for mistakes.

I agree, the Air Force has always been better at PR then the other services.

As long as we are on the subject, there was an incident a few years back
when a younger F-14 pilot was on a cross country flight and stopped to
re-fuel at his home town airport, just so his family could see him. The
F-14 crashed on either takeoff or departure while leaving the hometown
airport. Not sure how he justified landing at a non-military airfield for
re-fueling unless there weren't any military airfields around - I think that
was one of the focal points of the accident investigation. Not sure if he
was hot-dogging it when departing or if something just went wrong. Perhaps
someone else has more accurate details.

JD

[Yeff]

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 19:41:31 GMT, Joe Delphi wrote:

> I agree, the Air Force has always been better at PR then the other services.

You misspelled Marines...

-Jeff B.
yeff at erols dot com

[Jim Herring]

Joe Delphi wrote:

> Not sure how he justified landing at a non-military airfield for re-fueling
> unless there weren't any military airfields around

They carry credit cards for this.

--
Jim

carry on




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[Bob McKellar]

Joe Delphi wrote:

> >
> > Anecdotal evidence, yes, but I think their corporate cover up makes sense
> > culturally because of the USAF's very tight regulation and zero tolerance
> > for mistakes.
>
> I agree, the Air Force has always been better at PR then the other services.
>
> As long as we are on the subject, there was an incident a few years back
> when a younger F-14 pilot was on a cross country flight and stopped to
> re-fuel at his home town airport, just so his family could see him. The
> F-14 crashed on either takeoff or departure while leaving the hometown
> airport. Not sure how he justified landing at a non-military airfield for
> re-fueling unless there weren't any military airfields around - I think that
> was one of the focal points of the accident investigation. Not sure if he
> was hot-dogging it when departing or if something just went wrong. Perhaps
> someone else has more accurate details.
>
> JD

It happens all the time. I live in Savannah GA, and a local airport operation
(FBO) has a govt. fuel contract, even though MCAS Beaufort is about 30 miles
away as the Hornet flies, Hunter Army AF is about 6 miles away, and there is a
large ANG C-130 base on the other side of the field.

Back before 9/11, when elderly airport kids were allowed on the ramp to
rubberneck, I spent a lot of Friday afternoons there.

I saw all manner of military aluminum, from Harriers and Hornets to Sherpas,
T-34's, and various mil versions of biz jets.

The pilots got better and faster service, a nicer pilots' lounge and less
hassle. People coming to meetings and conferences at Hunter would even land and
leave their planes at the Savannah airport and drive to the Army base. ( Note:
this was not a runway preference decision. Hunter used to be a B-47 base and is
a shuttle alternate landing site.)

I think the taxpayer dollars came out about the same.

PS - One T-34C arrived during a Bonanza fly-in event. I told the guys they had
the ugliest Bonanza there, but could win any races!

Bob McKellar

[Joe Delphi]

Understand that, but isn't that sort of for emergency or unplanned
situations like having to divert because of mechanical problem or possibly
low fuel because of stronger than expected headwinds or something like that.
I always thought that when filing the DD-175 plan you should plan your route
for re-fueling at military bases unless it just isn't possible for some
reason.

JD

"Jim Herring" > wrote in message
...
> Joe Delphi wrote:
>
> > Not sure how he justified landing at a non-military airfield for
re-fueling
> > unless there weren't any military airfields around
>
> They carry credit cards for this.
>

[Pechs1]

Bob-<< The pilots got better and faster service, a nicer pilots' lounge and
less
hassle. >><BR><BR>

You bet, anybody remember the 'Tulsa Turnaround'?

Was met at the jet by scantily clad babes with a cold drink...pre tailhook
fiasco.

What airpatch was that?
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Elmshoot]

>You bet, anybody remember the 'Tulsa Turnaround'?Was met at the jet by
>scantily clad babes with a cold drink...pre tailhookfiasco.What airpatch was
>that?P. C.

"Honest skipper it broke down there" after that phone call we found out they
had crew rooms in the back for $5 a night. On Friday nights the pool, hot tub
and cabanna were all up and running at MRT. The women were all over, not a bad
place to stop by for gas at uncle sams expense. It cost NO MORE to stop there
great setup for some businessman who new how to attract business.
Sparky

[Krztalizer]

>>You bet, anybody remember the 'Tulsa Turnaround'?Was met at the jet by
>>scantily clad babes with a cold drink...pre tailhookfiasco.What airpatch was
>>that?P. C.

Sounds like that gREAT gas stop at Salinas, Kansas -- fill up yer jet and get
free steaks at the roadhouse. Oh, and the grapes were all wearing daisy dukes
and not a lot else!

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

[Frijoles]

Wasn't it IBA at Tulsa? When we couldn't get tankers, we used to bring the
whole squadron through there for gas and go on the way to deployments for
training. Great turn, nice scenery... Cost no more than any other place.
IIRC Butler Aviation won the contract a few years later but had nowhere near
the facilities to handle traffic like IBA.

One of my squadron-mates once "broke down" in Tulsa on an XC -- "Skipper the
jet won't take fuel..." Turns out the jet was already FULL, so technically
it wasn't a lie...

....fortunately the CO had a sense of humor.


"Elmshoot" > wrote in message
...
> >You bet, anybody remember the 'Tulsa Turnaround'?Was met at the jet by
> >scantily clad babes with a cold drink...pre tailhookfiasco.What airpatch
was
> >that?P. C.
>
> "Honest skipper it broke down there" after that phone call we found out
they
> had crew rooms in the back for $5 a night. On Friday nights the pool, hot
tub
> and cabanna were all up and running at MRT. The women were all over, not a
bad
> place to stop by for gas at uncle sams expense. It cost NO MORE to stop
there
> great setup for some businessman who new how to attract business.
> Sparky

[Tex Houston]

"Frijoles" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> Wasn't it IBA at Tulsa? When we couldn't get tankers, we used to bring
the
> whole squadron through there for gas and go on the way to deployments for
> training. Great turn, nice scenery... Cost no more than any other place.
> IIRC Butler Aviation won the contract a few years later but had nowhere
near
> the facilities to handle traffic like IBA.

Flower Aviation owned by Eldon Engel of Pueblo Colorado has used this model
for years, locations at Pueblo, Hobbs NM, Salina KS and soon Garden City KS.
The greeters are personable young ladies who greet you with cookies.

Tex

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 2/23/04 5:56 PM, in article , "Tex
Houston" > wrote:

>
> "Frijoles" > wrote in message
> hlink.net...
>> Wasn't it IBA at Tulsa? When we couldn't get tankers, we used to bring
> the
>> whole squadron through there for gas and go on the way to deployments for
>> training. Great turn, nice scenery... Cost no more than any other place.
>> IIRC Butler Aviation won the contract a few years later but had nowhere
> near
>> the facilities to handle traffic like IBA.
>
> Flower Aviation owned by Eldon Engel of Pueblo Colorado has used this model
> for years, locations at Pueblo, Hobbs NM, Salina KS and soon Garden City KS.
> The greeters are personable young ladies who greet you with cookies.
>
> Tex
>
>

Most operations like that have been chased out of business over the years by
the government contract nazis who see perks like free pizzas, steaks, and
discounted rooms as "illegal enticement." Technically, they're right, and
it's unethical, but I wonder whether such rules tend to fly in the face of
true capitalism.

Hence Doug Thompson's FBO's demise losing the government contract at Grand
Junction. That was a guy who got a TACAN approach certified and had folks
who could even service Hornet HYD's and AMAD's.

Ellington still runs a great set up for DACT too.

Don't know whether or not he's still putting up the "o-club" there or not.

I do know I've got time in the A-6 he has on his stick there.

--Woody

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 2/22/04 1:41 PM, in article
et, "Joe Delphi"
> wrote:

>>
>> Anecdotal evidence, yes, but I think their corporate cover up makes sense
>> culturally because of the USAF's very tight regulation and zero tolerance
>> for mistakes.
>
> I agree, the Air Force has always been better at PR then the other services.
>
> As long as we are on the subject, there was an incident a few years back
> when a younger F-14 pilot was on a cross country flight and stopped to
> re-fuel at his home town airport, just so his family could see him. The
> F-14 crashed on either takeoff or departure while leaving the hometown
> airport. Not sure how he justified landing at a non-military airfield for
> re-fueling unless there weren't any military airfields around - I think that
> was one of the focal points of the accident investigation. Not sure if he
> was hot-dogging it when departing or if something just went wrong. Perhaps
> someone else has more accurate details.
>
> JD
>
>

Pilot made a poor decision to do a max performance take-off and unrestricted
climb into a low overcast that was solid up to the medium altitudes.

Fuel stop was in Nashville, IIRC.

He was overcome by "samatographic vision" (aviation phys types, please
disregard the spelling) which occurs during high deck angle climbs under
afterburner. It is an extremely disorienting thing (personal experience).

Basically, the combination of push from the burners and transverse (through
the chest) g's from the nose up attitude makes you feel even more nose high
than you are--even when you push the nose over... which is exactly what this
pilot did. Even as you push the nose over, unless you pull the jet out of
blower, the push of the cans continues to make you feel nose up (even though
your accelerating airspeed and ADI are obviously indicating a rapid
descent). It's an inner ear thing. Look to the doc's for the technical
explanations.

This guy and his RIO went into the clouds extremely nose up and came out
extremely nose down crashing into a suburban neighborhood and killing
themselves and at least one person on the ground--again IIRC.

By the way, the act of stopping at a civilian field for gas is not, in
itself, wrong to do. Its legality is largely determined by current security
concerns and the rules set forth by whichever admirals (CNAF/CNAL/CNAP),
Commodores, and CO's are running the show at the time.

--Woody

[Elmshoot]

>I do know I've got time in the A-6 he has on his stick there.
>
>--Woody
>

Woody,
Do you know the Buno on this bird?
Sparky

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 2/24/04 10:44 AM, in article
, "Elmshoot" >
wrote:

>> I do know I've got time in the A-6 he has on his stick there.
>>
>> --Woody
>>
>
> Woody,
> Do you know the Buno on this bird?
> Sparky

Sorry, Sparky. I don't. It was a China Lake bird when it was moved to the
retired list. Two of our guys flew it to Grand Junction to be stripped down
and put on the stick.

We had about 4 A-6's at the Lake and I flew all of them. Best I might be
able to do is give you all the BUNO's I flew during the China Lake tour.

--Woody

[WaltBJ]

Hunh. If an IFR-rated pilot can't fly a near-vertical climb on the
gauges how did he ever pass an instrument check including unusual
position recoveries? I think of the impromptu night dive bombing in
SEA, doing SEAD for the AC130s - no visible horizon, especially during
the 'burn off the fields' period with smoke and haze all over. That
'somatographic' illusion does explain a few F101 pitchups out of
vertical climbs, though. If you want to really experience something
wild, try a 450 KIAS afterburner climb on the wing of a 104 on an
active air scramble at 0-dark thirty!
Walt BJ

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 2/25/04 12:17 AM, in article
, "WaltBJ"
> wrote:

> Hunh. If an IFR-rated pilot can't fly a near-vertical climb on the
> gauges how did he ever pass an instrument check including unusual
> position recoveries?

The somatographic illusion/vision (whatever) only served to explain the
inner ear mechanics that got this guy disoriented... not why he couldn't
overcome it. Admittedly, I think he had a reputation as a poor stick.

> I think of the impromptu night dive bombing in
> SEA, doing SEAD for the AC130s - no visible horizon, especially during
> the 'burn off the fields' period with smoke and haze all over. That
> 'somatographic' illusion does explain a few F101 pitchups out of
> vertical climbs, though. If you want to really experience something
> wild, try a 450 KIAS afterburner climb on the wing of a 104 on an
> active air scramble at 0-dark thirty!
> Walt BJ

I've experienced it doing burner climbs in the Hornet. It's just something
that's helpful to be aware of. I've found that if you expect it, you tend
to keep your eyes glued to the attitude source (HUD).


--Woody

[Mary Shafer]

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 19:04:31 GMT, "Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal"
> wrote:

> Sorry, Sparky. I don't. It was a China Lake bird when it was moved to the
> retired list. Two of our guys flew it to Grand Junction to be stripped down
> and put on the stick.
>
> We had about 4 A-6's at the Lake and I flew all of them. Best I might be
> able to do is give you all the BUNO's I flew during the China Lake tour.

We used the China Lake A-6s, flying with a buddy store, to do
simulated refueling with our F-8 DFBW airplane. I was the Principle
Investigator on that project and wrote a paper about it. That was a
while back, now that I think about it.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer