Re: EA-18G vs ES-3

[Thomas Schoene]

R. David Steele wrote:
> I have been out of the loop for a while. Hope that you folks
> might bring me up to speed. What happened to the ES-3? At the
> time it looked like it could do the SIGINT/ELINT mission as it
> had room for the gear plus a crew of four. Made it a good
> replacement for the EA-6.

The ES-3 was never a replacement for the EA-6. It did ELINT collection
while the EA-6 did jamming and SEAD. The ES-3 disappeared in 1999 thanks to
funding shortages.

> What it that the ES-3, like the EA-6, can not keep with the
> F/A-18 and the F-35? Or is this just a bone to Boeing?

The S-3 is even slower than the EA-6. That's why they weren't able to use
the S-3 as a mission tanker for strike fighters like the F/A-18.

> I assume that the EA-18G will only have a crew of two. But then
> isn't the F/A-18 now being used for refueling along with the S-3?

Soon to be "instead of" the S-3. When more air wings deploy with two Super
Hornet squadrons, the plan is for them not to have any S-3s. Single-seat
Super Hornets do tanker duties.


--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

[fudog50]

You really are out of the loop R.David.

The ES-3 did the same job as the EP-3, although much watered
down. Just like the ASW S-3 did the same job as the P-3, and even more
watered down. However, the "Shadow" did have one advantage over the
ARIES II; the APS-137 ISAR for targeting capabilities. But it had
very limited actual "spook" value.

1.) The Prowler was never a a SIGINT/ELINT platform and never
will be, nor will the "Growler".

2.) The S-3 has been used for 6 years now, and still is the
primary tanker, what are you guys talking about?

3.) Yes, the plan is to start to bring on-line the E/F for
tanker duties, ( I know it's already being done, but S-3's are still
the primary tanker until "sundown" in 2005).

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 04:50:21 GMT, "Thomas Schoene"
> wrote:

>R. David Steele wrote:
>> I have been out of the loop for a while. Hope that you folks
>> might bring me up to speed. What happened to the ES-3? At the
>> time it looked like it could do the SIGINT/ELINT mission as it
>> had room for the gear plus a crew of four. Made it a good
>> replacement for the EA-6.
>
>The ES-3 was never a replacement for the EA-6. It did ELINT collection
>while the EA-6 did jamming and SEAD. The ES-3 disappeared in 1999 thanks to
>funding shortages.
>
>> What it that the ES-3, like the EA-6, can not keep with the
>> F/A-18 and the F-35? Or is this just a bone to Boeing?
>
>The S-3 is even slower than the EA-6. That's why they weren't able to use
>the S-3 as a mission tanker for strike fighters like the F/A-18.
>
>> I assume that the EA-18G will only have a crew of two. But then
>> isn't the F/A-18 now being used for refueling along with the S-3?
>
>Soon to be "instead of" the S-3. When more air wings deploy with two Super
>Hornet squadrons, the plan is for them not to have any S-3s. Single-seat
>Super Hornets do tanker duties.

[Charlie Wolf]

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 04:50:21 GMT, "Thomas Schoene"
> wrote:

>R. David Steele wrote:
snipped...
>The S-3 is even slower than the EA-6. That's why they weren't able to use
>the S-3 as a mission tanker for strike fighters like the F/A-18.
Where did you get that from? S-3's have been tanking Lawn Darts since
the RAG stood up at Cecil Field in the early 90's. S-3 has a dash
speed of 450 kts. It can easily do 400 kts straight and level. That
is way above tanking speed.

Please note - I'm a former AW - not a driver, but I think I have my
basic facts correct.
Regards,

snipped...

[John R Weiss]

"fudog50" > wrote...
> You really are out of the loop R.David.
>
> 1.) The Prowler was never a a SIGINT/ELINT platform and never
> will be, nor will the "Growler".

Maybe you are the one out of the loop... The Prowler has significant
SIGINT/ELINT capabilities, even though it is not a "dedicated" SIGINT platform.
When I was flying Standard ARM equipped A-6s in the early 80s, we worked closely
with the Prowlers to develop tactical capabilities in those regimes. Even the
AWG-21 system in the A-6 had some SIGINT/ELINT capability (better with the
missile seeker)...


> 2.) The S-3 has been used for 6 years now, and still is the
> primary tanker, what are you guys talking about?

The S-3 is a good overhead tanker, and a workable mission tanker, but cannot be
used in an escort tanker role because of its speed limitations. That limitation
means more rendezvous will have to take place for on-station tanking, because
the tanker cannot go with the strike group.

[fudog50]

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 18:58:13 GMT, "John R Weiss"
> wrote:

Hey John R.,
A valiant effort at trying to discredit what I posted, nice
try.
We can exploit different systems and use them in ways they
were not intended. Part of a skippers fitreps are gauged at how he
develops new and unique tactics, I'm sure you know that already. I
think you are wrong about your insinuation I am not correct in what I
posted. I beleive you need to get in the loop and find out what the
acronyms SIGINT and ELINT really mean, and how the spook community
uses them.
Good on ya for your development of AWG-21/Standard ARM
tactics, pretty cool, but whatever you want to call them, it ain't
SIGINT/ELINT. I only know about the Prowler from my experience as
MMCO, and 3 cruises with Prowlers, we never did any of what the
intelligence community calls SIGINT/ELINT. The ALQ-99 Receivers do a
great job at picking up, analyzing and targeting what has already been
programmed in, but it still ain't SIGINT/ELINT.
I also have been in a Viking squadron (3 cruises) , P-3's (6
deployments) and currently EP-3's. I also did some work with VQ-5's
det (ES-3's) in Misawa in 95.
I didn't think I was out of the loop, but by your definitions,
to you I am, so thanks for enlightning me on those whatever you want
to call them tactics you guys developed 20 years ago. That loop has
been closed for 15 years.
Also what you are saying is I am wrong and that the Growler
will be used for SIGINT/ELINT??? Show us please?

>"fudog50" > wrote...
>> You really are out of the loop R.David.
>>
>> 1.) The Prowler was never a a SIGINT/ELINT platform and never
>> will be, nor will the "Growler".
>
>Maybe you are the one out of the loop... The Prowler has significant
>SIGINT/ELINT capabilities, even though it is not a "dedicated" SIGINT platform.
>When I was flying Standard ARM equipped A-6s in the early 80s, we worked closely
>with the Prowlers to develop tactical capabilities in those regimes. Even the
>AWG-21 system in the A-6 had some SIGINT/ELINT capability (better with the
>missile seeker)...
>
>
>> 2.) The S-3 has been used for 6 years now, and still is the
>> primary tanker, what are you guys talking about?
>
>The S-3 is a good overhead tanker, and a workable mission tanker, but cannot be
>used in an escort tanker role because of its speed limitations. That limitation
>means more rendezvous will have to take place for on-station tanking, because
>the tanker cannot go with the strike group.

[Peter Kemp]

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 21:37:14 GMT, fudog50 > wrote:

>The ALQ-99 Receivers do a
>great job at picking up, analyzing and targeting what has already been
>programmed in, but it still ain't SIGINT/ELINT.

I agree that *detecting* and/or locating known radar types is not
SIGINT, but it surely is OPELINT (versus the analysis of singal that
makes up TECHELEINT). Or so I was taught many moons ago.

It's the difference between - "oh, there's an SA-6 radar over there"
(OPELINT) and "What the hell's this signal? Better record the pulse
shape, prf and so on for analysis" (TECHELEINT).

---
Peter Kemp

Life is short - drink faster

[Chad Irby]

In article >,
Peter Kemp > wrote:

> It's the difference between - "oh, there's an SA-6 radar over there"
> (OPELINT) and "What the hell's this signal? Better record the pulse
> shape, prf and so on for analysis" (TECHELEINT).

Not to mention the much more common Direct Radiation Yoke Emission
Recording/Locating Intel, or DRYERLINT.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

[Thomas Schoene]

Charlie Wolf wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 04:50:21 GMT, "Thomas Schoene"
> > wrote:
>
>> R. David Steele wrote:
> snipped...
>> The S-3 is even slower than the EA-6. That's why they weren't able
>> to use the S-3 as a mission tanker for strike fighters like the
>> F/A-18.
> Where did you get that from? S-3's have been tanking Lawn Darts since
> the RAG stood up at Cecil Field in the early 90's. S-3 has a dash
> speed of 450 kts. It can easily do 400 kts straight and level. That
> is way above tanking speed.

Right. That's why I said *mission* tanker. AIUI, the S-3 was fine for
tanking around the carrier, but did not have the speed to keep pace with a
strike package en-route to the target area.

--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

[Thomas Schoene]

Thomas Schoene wrote:
> Charlie Wolf wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 04:50:21 GMT, "Thomas Schoene"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> R. David Steele wrote:
>> snipped...
>>> The S-3 is even slower than the EA-6. That's why they weren't able
>>> to use the S-3 as a mission tanker for strike fighters like the
>>> F/A-18.
>> Where did you get that from? S-3's have been tanking Lawn Darts
>> since the RAG stood up at Cecil Field in the early 90's. S-3 has a
>> dash speed of 450 kts. It can easily do 400 kts straight and level.
>> That is way above tanking speed.
>
> Right. That's why I said *mission* tanker.



And reading the rest of the thread, I think I was probably confusing my
terms. I think "escort tanker" is what I should have been saying here.


--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

[Brian]

"John R Weiss" > wrote in message
news:9f6%b.408640$na.796343@attbi_s04...
> "fudog50" > wrote...
> > You really are out of the loop R.David.
> >
> > 1.) The Prowler was never a a SIGINT/ELINT platform and never
> > will be, nor will the "Growler".
>
> Maybe you are the one out of the loop... The Prowler has significant
> SIGINT/ELINT capabilities, even though it is not a "dedicated" SIGINT
platform.
> When I was flying Standard ARM equipped A-6s in the early 80s, we worked
closely
> with the Prowlers to develop tactical capabilities in those regimes. Even
the
> AWG-21 system in the A-6 had some SIGINT/ELINT capability (better with the
> missile seeker)...

The Prowler's SIGINT capability is nil. There is almost no analysis
capabilty nor does there need to be. Sending info to a *ARM isn't the same
thing as ELINT/SIGINT. Even the shipboard system I worked wasn't considered
a full blown SIGINT/ELINT system without a few add on's and even then it
wasn't a preferred platform. To really do SIGINT/ELINT, you need receivers
that are very sensitive and can measure incredibly minute differences in
signals. The ALQ-99 and other EW platforms can pick out signals but they
don't need the razor accuracy of a ELINT receiver. Take a look at the
equipment that was in the ES-3 and look at the ALQ-99, they are completely
different systems. When the Navy gave up the ES-3, they gave up tactical
airborne ELINT.

[John R Weiss]

"Brian" wrote...
>
> The Prowler's SIGINT capability is nil. There is almost no analysis
> capabilty nor does there need to be. Sending info to a *ARM isn't the same
> thing as ELINT/SIGINT. Even the shipboard system I worked wasn't considered
> a full blown SIGINT/ELINT system without a few add on's and even then it
> wasn't a preferred platform. To really do SIGINT/ELINT, you need receivers
> that are very sensitive and can measure incredibly minute differences in
> signals. The ALQ-99 and other EW platforms can pick out signals but they
> don't need the razor accuracy of a ELINT receiver. Take a look at the
> equipment that was in the ES-3 and look at the ALQ-99, they are completely
> different systems. When the Navy gave up the ES-3, they gave up tactical
> airborne ELINT.

I never claimed that the Prowler had a capability equivalent to the ES-3, EP-3,
or EA-3. I firmly believe that such dedicated ESM systems are needed. However,
your counterclaim that the Prowler's SIGINT/ELINT capability is "nil" shows you
do not know the system's full capability, and/or you do not appreciate the time
sensitivity of tactical ESM.

You don't always need a "full blown" system or a "preferred platform."
Sometimes you only need a capable platform with an operator that knows what he's
doing. I've worked with more than a few EA-6B ECMOs who knew how to wring a few
extra data points out of the ALQ-99...

Once in a while, you only had to have a capable system and a lucky operator...
We were flying around one day with an AWG-21 and a STARM on board, and picked up
a signal that shouldn't have been where it was. Turned out to be a Bear coming
from an unexpected direction, and we were the first ones to detect it. Other
sensors picked it up well after we reported back to the ship...

[fudog50]

Good one Chad! LOL

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 22:27:24 GMT, Chad Irby > wrote:

>In article >,
> Peter Kemp > wrote:
>
>> It's the difference between - "oh, there's an SA-6 radar over there"
>> (OPELINT) and "What the hell's this signal? Better record the pulse
>> shape, prf and so on for analysis" (TECHELEINT).
>
>Not to mention the much more common Direct Radiation Yoke Emission
>Recording/Locating Intel, or DRYERLINT.

[fudog50]

Exactly Brian, thanks.

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:09:52 -0500, "Brian"
> wrote:

>
>"John R Weiss" > wrote in message
>news:9f6%b.408640$na.796343@attbi_s04...
>> "fudog50" > wrote...
>> > You really are out of the loop R.David.
>> >
>> > 1.) The Prowler was never a a SIGINT/ELINT platform and never
>> > will be, nor will the "Growler".
>>
>> Maybe you are the one out of the loop... The Prowler has significant
>> SIGINT/ELINT capabilities, even though it is not a "dedicated" SIGINT
>platform.
>> When I was flying Standard ARM equipped A-6s in the early 80s, we worked
>closely
>> with the Prowlers to develop tactical capabilities in those regimes. Even
>the
>> AWG-21 system in the A-6 had some SIGINT/ELINT capability (better with the
>> missile seeker)...
>
>The Prowler's SIGINT capability is nil. There is almost no analysis
>capabilty nor does there need to be. Sending info to a *ARM isn't the same
>thing as ELINT/SIGINT. Even the shipboard system I worked wasn't considered
>a full blown SIGINT/ELINT system without a few add on's and even then it
>wasn't a preferred platform. To really do SIGINT/ELINT, you need receivers
>that are very sensitive and can measure incredibly minute differences in
>signals. The ALQ-99 and other EW platforms can pick out signals but they
>don't need the razor accuracy of a ELINT receiver. Take a look at the
>equipment that was in the ES-3 and look at the ALQ-99, they are completely
>different systems. When the Navy gave up the ES-3, they gave up tactical
>airborne ELINT.
>

[fudog50]

Nice tap dancing there John R.
It's all good, can we move on?

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 04:41:02 GMT, "John R Weiss"
> wrote:

>"Brian" wrote...
>>
>> The Prowler's SIGINT capability is nil. There is almost no analysis
>> capabilty nor does there need to be. Sending info to a *ARM isn't the same
>> thing as ELINT/SIGINT. Even the shipboard system I worked wasn't considered
>> a full blown SIGINT/ELINT system without a few add on's and even then it
>> wasn't a preferred platform. To really do SIGINT/ELINT, you need receivers
>> that are very sensitive and can measure incredibly minute differences in
>> signals. The ALQ-99 and other EW platforms can pick out signals but they
>> don't need the razor accuracy of a ELINT receiver. Take a look at the
>> equipment that was in the ES-3 and look at the ALQ-99, they are completely
>> different systems. When the Navy gave up the ES-3, they gave up tactical
>> airborne ELINT.
>
>I never claimed that the Prowler had a capability equivalent to the ES-3, EP-3,
>or EA-3. I firmly believe that such dedicated ESM systems are needed. However,
>your counterclaim that the Prowler's SIGINT/ELINT capability is "nil" shows you
>do not know the system's full capability, and/or you do not appreciate the time
>sensitivity of tactical ESM.
>
>You don't always need a "full blown" system or a "preferred platform."
>Sometimes you only need a capable platform with an operator that knows what he's
>doing. I've worked with more than a few EA-6B ECMOs who knew how to wring a few
>extra data points out of the ALQ-99...
>
>Once in a while, you only had to have a capable system and a lucky operator...
>We were flying around one day with an AWG-21 and a STARM on board, and picked up
>a signal that shouldn't have been where it was. Turned out to be a Bear coming
>from an unexpected direction, and we were the first ones to detect it. Other
>sensors picked it up well after we reported back to the ship...

[fudog50]

See, here is what currently happens there, I'm sure you knew this but
are forgetting Thomas?

The tanker does not fly with the strike package. The S-3's launch
first then go to a designated rendevouz point All the talk about
tanker speed is irrelevant. Then "most" of the time the airforce
tankers are at their designated hookup points on the way in to the
box right before the push, then on the way out. On the way home, the
S-3's are waiting to give a last drink if needed before and during
recovery ops.

Which A/C in the package launch last? The Prowlers! They have the most
fuel onboard. S-3's, then the E-2's, then Hornets ( the F-18's head
straight for the tanker), then Tomcats and last, Prowlers. Of course
planeguard is already out there, and maybe if in range, the COD will
launch.

Of course this will change slightly with the Rhino's, I haven't done a
cruise with the E/F's onboard yet, but I will be making Lincoln's next
cruise.

Thu, 26 Feb 2004 00:14:00 GMT, "Thomas Schoene"
> wrote:

>Thomas Schoene wrote:
>> Charlie Wolf wrote:
>>> On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 04:50:21 GMT, "Thomas Schoene"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> R. David Steele wrote:
>>> snipped...
>>>> The S-3 is even slower than the EA-6. That's why they weren't able
>>>> to use the S-3 as a mission tanker for strike fighters like the
>>>> F/A-18.
>>> Where did you get that from? S-3's have been tanking Lawn Darts
>>> since the RAG stood up at Cecil Field in the early 90's. S-3 has a
>>> dash speed of 450 kts. It can easily do 400 kts straight and level.
>>> That is way above tanking speed.
>>
>> Right. That's why I said *mission* tanker.
>
>
>
>And reading the rest of the thread, I think I was probably confusing my
>terms. I think "escort tanker" is what I should have been saying here.

[Charlie Wolf]

Thank you - you put it much better than I could have...
Regards,

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:11:25 GMT, fudog50 > wrote:

>See, here is what currently happens there, I'm sure you knew this but
>are forgetting Thomas?
>
>The tanker does not fly with the strike package. The S-3's launch
>first then go to a designated rendevouz point All the talk about
>tanker speed is irrelevant. Then "most" of the time the airforce
>tankers are at their designated hookup points on the way in to the
>box right before the push, then on the way out. On the way home, the
>S-3's are waiting to give a last drink if needed before and during
>recovery ops.
>
>Which A/C in the package launch last? The Prowlers! They have the most
>fuel onboard. S-3's, then the E-2's, then Hornets ( the F-18's head
>straight for the tanker), then Tomcats and last, Prowlers. Of course
>planeguard is already out there, and maybe if in range, the COD will
>launch.
>
>Of course this will change slightly with the Rhino's, I haven't done a
>cruise with the E/F's onboard yet, but I will be making Lincoln's next
>cruise.
>
>Thu, 26 Feb 2004 00:14:00 GMT, "Thomas Schoene"
> wrote:
>
>>Thomas Schoene wrote:
>>> Charlie Wolf wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 04:50:21 GMT, "Thomas Schoene"
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> R. David Steele wrote:
>>>> snipped...
>>>>> The S-3 is even slower than the EA-6. That's why they weren't able
>>>>> to use the S-3 as a mission tanker for strike fighters like the
>>>>> F/A-18.
>>>> Where did you get that from? S-3's have been tanking Lawn Darts
>>>> since the RAG stood up at Cecil Field in the early 90's. S-3 has a
>>>> dash speed of 450 kts. It can easily do 400 kts straight and level.
>>>> That is way above tanking speed.
>>>
>>> Right. That's why I said *mission* tanker.
>>
>>
>>
>>And reading the rest of the thread, I think I was probably confusing my
>>terms. I think "escort tanker" is what I should have been saying here.

[Scott]

Actually, what you are referring to is called a 'Wet Wing tanker' like the
old KA-6 that could fly with the strike package. S-3B do indeed mission
tank on a regular basis, usually at a fixed point in space or 'dragging' the
fighters toward an objective but never once the strike package has begun
their route.

"Thomas Schoene" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Charlie Wolf wrote:
> > On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 04:50:21 GMT, "Thomas Schoene"
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> R. David Steele wrote:
> > snipped...
> >> The S-3 is even slower than the EA-6. That's why they weren't able
> >> to use the S-3 as a mission tanker for strike fighters like the
> >> F/A-18.
> > Where did you get that from? S-3's have been tanking Lawn Darts since
> > the RAG stood up at Cecil Field in the early 90's. S-3 has a dash
> > speed of 450 kts. It can easily do 400 kts straight and level. That
> > is way above tanking speed.
>
> Right. That's why I said *mission* tanker. AIUI, the S-3 was fine for
> tanking around the carrier, but did not have the speed to keep pace with a
> strike package en-route to the target area.
>
> --
> Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
> "If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
> special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)
>
>
>
>

[Thomas Schoene]

Scott wrote:
> Actually, what you are referring to is called a 'Wet Wing tanker'
> like the old KA-6 that could fly with the strike package. S-3B do
> indeed mission tank on a regular basis, usually at a fixed point in
> space or 'dragging' the fighters toward an objective but never once
> the strike package has begun their route.

Well, I'll admit I've gotten quite an education in tanker ops overt the last
couple of days. Thanks guys.

--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)