Navy or Air Farce?

[Elmshoot]

A friend sent this one on to me I hadn't seen it before thought you would all
agree with his comments.
Sparky
USN or USAF?
> > by Bob Norris
> >
> > Bob Norris is a former Naval Aviator who also did a 3 year exchange tour
> > flying the F-15 Eagle. He is now an accomplished author of entertaining
> > books about US Naval Aviation including "Check Six" and "Fly-Off".
> > Checkout his web site at <http://www.bobnorris.com/>.
> >
> > In response to a letter from an aspiring fighter pilot on which military
> > academy to attend, Bob replied with the following.
> >
> > 12 Feb 04
> > Young Man,
> > Congratulations on your selection to both the Naval and Air Force
> > Academies. Your goal of becoming a fighter pilot is impressive and a
> > fine way to serve your country. As you requested, I'd be happy to share
> > some insight into which service would be the best choice. Each service
> > has a distinctly different culture. You need to ask yourself "Which one
> > am I more likely to thrive in?"
> >
> > USAF Snapshot: The USAF is exceptionally well organized and well run.
> > Their training programs are terrific. All pilots are groomed to meet
> > high standards for knowledge and professionalism. Their aircraft are
> > top-notch and extremely well maintained. Their facilities are excellent.
> > Their enlisted personnel are the brightest and the best trained. The
> > USAF is homogenous and macro. No matter where you go, you'll know what
> > to expect, what is expected of you, and you'll be given the training &
> > tools you need to meet those expectations. You will never be put in a
> > situation over your head. Over a 20-year career, you will be home for
> > most important family events. Your Mom would want you to be an Air Force
> > pilot...so would your wife. Your Dad would want your sister to marry
> > one.
> >
> > Navy Snapshot: Aviators are part of the Navy, but so are Black shoes
> > (surface warfare) and bubble heads (submariners). Furthermore, the Navy
> > is split into two distinctly different Fleets (West and East Coast). The
> > Navy is heterogeneous and micro. Your squadron is your home; it may be
> > great, average, or awful. A squadron can go from one extreme to the
> > other before you know it. You will spend months preparing for cruise
> > and months on cruise. The quality of the aircraft varies directly with
> > the availability of parts. Senior Navy enlisted are salt of the earth;
> > you'll be proud if you earn their respect. Junior enlisted vary from
> > terrific to the troubled kid the judge made join the service. You will
> > be given the opportunity to lead these people during your career; you
> > will be humbled and get your hands dirty. The quality of your training
> > will vary and sometimes you will be in over your head. You will miss
> > many important family events. There will be long stretches of tedious
> > duty aboard ship. You will fly in very bad weather and/or at night and
> > you will be scared many times. You will fly with legends in the Navy
> > and they will kick your ass until you become a lethal force. And some
> > days - when the scheduling Gods have smiled upon you - your jet will
> > catapult into a glorious morning over a far-away sea and you will be
> > drop-jawed that someone would pay you to do it. The hottest girl in the
> > bar wants to meet the Naval Aviator. That bar is in Singapore.
> >
> > Bottom line, son, if you gotta ask...pack warm & good luck in Colorado.
> > Banzai
> > P.S. Air Force pilots wear scarves and iron their flight suits.

[Greasy Rider]

On 04 Mar 2004 00:36:57 GMT, (Elmshoot) disturbed the
phosphur particles on my screen with the following:

(snipped a whole lot of truth)

>> > P.S. Air Force pilots wear scarves and iron their flight suits.

Three things

1-The USAF is like a flying club but with bullets.

2- It's true that Navy wings are made of gold.
It's been said that USAF wings are made of lead.

3- Did you ever wonder what ever happened to those old Greyhound bus
driver uniforms?


SEMPER FI!

[Pechs1]

<< P.S. Air Force pilots wear scarves and iron their flight suits. >><BR><BR>

They also flare to land and squat to pee...
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Ed Rasimus]

On 04 Mar 2004 14:14:04 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote:

><< P.S. Air Force pilots wear scarves and iron their flight suits. >><BR><BR>
>
>They also flare to land and squat to pee...
>P. C. Chisholm
>CDR, USN(ret.)
>Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Is there no one in this forum who will speak the truth?

We flare to land because we can. We don't squat to pee. We don't iron
our flight suits, they look that way because we put a clean one on
every day and it hasn't been through the ship's laundry.

We have a drink before meals and afterward as well. There's an O'Club
at our operating location. We can leave the water running when we
shower. They wash our airplanes so they don't look like something out
of "Junkyard Wars" or "Mad Max".

And, it is a helluva lot warmer in Colorado Springs in the winter than
either West Point or Annapolis.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Dave LaCourse]

With 20 years in the Navy, many of them spent under Army or Air Force commands,
I must say that the AF has it the easiest. While stationed at March AF Base
going through a joint service school in the 50s, the Navy platoon sang this as
we marched to classes every day:

Up in the air, Junior Birdmen
Up in the air, upside down
Up in the air, Junior birdmen
With your noses to the ground
When you hear the grand announcement
That their wings are made of tin
You will know Junior Birdmen
Have sent their boxtops in
It takes..........
1 label.....
2 bottle caps
3 boxtops
and ...... one.... thin..... dime.

Hark! Hark! The Snark!
We shot a Snark into the air
And when it landed
We know not where
Hark! Hark! The Snark

That was a hundred years ago.... or was it two hundred.......
Dave

http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html

[Charlie Wolf]

On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 07:44:19 -0700, Ed Rasimus
> wrote:

>On 04 Mar 2004 14:14:04 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote:
>
>><< P.S. Air Force pilots wear scarves and iron their flight suits. >><BR><BR>
>>
>>They also flare to land and squat to pee...
>>P. C. Chisholm
>>CDR, USN(ret.)
>>Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer
>
>Is there no one in this forum who will speak the truth?
>
>We flare to land because we can. We don't squat to pee. We don't iron
>our flight suits, they look that way because we put a clean one on
>every day and it hasn't been through the ship's laundry.
>
>We have a drink before meals and afterward as well. There's an O'Club
>at our operating location. We can leave the water running when we
>shower. They wash our airplanes so they don't look like something out
>of "Junkyard Wars" or "Mad Max".
>
>And, it is a helluva lot warmer in Colorado Springs in the winter than
>either West Point or Annapolis.
Hey, hey, hey --- the IMPORTANT thing here is that you served
honorably. Don't be so damn hard on yourself...
Regards,

>
>
>Ed Rasimus
>Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
>"When Thunder Rolled"
>Smithsonian Institution Press
>ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[W. D. Allen Sr.]

Only in Navy Air do you get a single last shot to come aboard a pitching,
rolling carrier by flying under a steel cable into a nylon net strung above
the deck. And survive to brag about it! (just remember to pull that
parachute pack out of your puckered sphincter before you deplane.

WDA
CDR USN

end

"Pechs1" > wrote in message
...
> << P.S. Air Force pilots wear scarves and iron their flight suits.
>><BR><BR>
>
> They also flare to land and squat to pee...
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
Phlyer

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Elmshoot" > wrote in message
...
>
> A friend sent this one on to me I hadn't seen it before thought you
> would all agree with his comments.
> Sparky
> USN or USAF?
>

Naval aviation exists for those that can't qualify for the Air Force.

[Jdf4cheval]

A version ofhat song was in a movie I saw when I was a kid in the '50s. Pretty
sure it was To Hell and Back, Audie Murphy's story
..<< While stationed at March AF Base
going through a joint service school in the 50s, the Navy platoon sang this as
we marched to classes every day:

Up in the air, Junior Birdmen.... >>

[WaltBJ]

Well, I almost went the V12 program in 1950. My buddie's jarhead
aviator brother tried to talk me into it. Then I thought of sailing
around in a damn boat for six months at a whack in a strictly male
atmosphere and decided not only no but hell no. Next year I joined the
Air Force. Never regretted it. Got to fly the hottest airplane in the
world - the Dash 19 104A. Also got to spend 22 years in fighter
cockpits (F86/F102/F104/F4). Was still flying the F4 and filling a
combat slot right up to two months before I hung it up for good. Not
too shabby for a 49 year old. Go Air Force! I even almost forgave
DCS/P for that 4 years at a desk in USAFE after SEA.
Walt BJ

[Krztalizer]

>Got to fly the hottest airplane in the
>world - the Dash 19 104A. Also got to spend 22 years in fighter
>cockpits (F86/F102/F104/F4). Was still flying the F4 and filling a
>combat slot right up to two months before I hung it up for good. Not
>too shabby for a 49 year old.

Bitch, bitch, bitch. :)

Sounds like an unregrettable life, Walt. Do you have a website or story
collection anywhere? I think whatever story you wanted to commit to 'paper'
would be worth reading. Lex has read your letter a couple of times since you
sent it but we're keeping that Zipper sticker for something special - he says
he'll know it when he sees it.

v/r
Gordon

[Pechs1]

roncachamp-<< Naval aviation exists for those that can't qualify for the Air
Force. >><BR><BR>

righto-we all had assigned seats everytime the USAF exchange officer came
aboard the boat...better show than either the USMC pilot or the movie...
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Ed Rasimus]

On 05 Mar 2004 14:25:04 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote:

>roncachamp-<< Naval aviation exists for those that can't qualify for the Air
>Force. >><BR><BR>
>
>righto-we all had assigned seats everytime the USAF exchange officer came
>aboard the boat...better show than either the USMC pilot or the movie...
>P. C. Chisholm
>CDR, USN(ret.)
>Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Everyone has their place. I respect the skill it takes to get on and
off the boat. I had a chance to ride with the VF-11 Rippers off of
Forrestal in the Med. It was impressive. Did the whole tour--couple of
flights, hang around the ready room, eat in the chow hall, bang my
head on the overhead, trip over the passageways, get lost in the maze,
take a dry shower, visit pri-fly, stand between the cats in the box,
contemplate the net below the LSO perch, etc.

Now, OTOH, when I was there, we tapped an KA-6 after T/O. The
nose-gunner driving me around bragged later about his tanking
ability--we took 1500 pounds to ease the cycle. I mentioned that the
previous week I'd returned to Spain from Incirlik and we took 16,500
pounds in one hook-up.

We did some 1-v-1 at the end of our station period. I was amazed at
the ability to low-speed fight the hard-wing F-4. I mentioned to the
guys during debrief, that if they ever saw me in my green/brown F-4
coming to fight their grey ones, it would be at 420 kts minimum and
probably a lot faster. There wouldn't be no knife-fighting and
scissoring. And, if I caught them on CAP like I'd just
watched--loitering at 250-275 kts in a holding orbit, they'd be dead
before they knew it.

In my squadron back on land, we had a huge grease pencil board on
which we logged our six-month requirements. Refuelings, low-levels
(day/night), nuc deliveries (vis/radar), conventional deliveries
(10,20,30, rx, strafe), intercepts (day/night), approaches, etc. The
Rippers had a small board. It logged landings--that's all, nothing
better than a green-three. Everything else (i.e. mission) seemed to be
secondary to coming aboard.

Just an AF perspective.

BTW, I did get to taste a bit of warm scotch in a paper cup while
hunched in a cramped C-position on the edge of a lower bunk with six
guys in a 8x5 foot stateroom without a window, beneath a cat and next
to an ammo hoist. Nice life!


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Mike Kanze]

One of the things I continue to enjoy about RAMN is the spirited
participation of Ed and other current and former Blue-Suiters - despite
their presence being overly-obvious "low-hanging fruit" for jibes and
good-natured leg-pulling. To me this shows that the best among us ARE the
best in spite of dressing like either bus drivers or Good Humor vendors.

--
Mike Kanze

"And why is radicalism so strong in California? Because the State is run by
a dreadful combination of crooked politicians and grasping Babbitts."

- H. L. Mencken (1924)


"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On 04 Mar 2004 14:14:04 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote:
>
> ><< P.S. Air Force pilots wear scarves and iron their flight suits.
>><BR><BR>
> >
> >They also flare to land and squat to pee...
> >P. C. Chisholm
> >CDR, USN(ret.)
> >Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
Phlyer
>
> Is there no one in this forum who will speak the truth?
>
> We flare to land because we can. We don't squat to pee. We don't iron
> our flight suits, they look that way because we put a clean one on
> every day and it hasn't been through the ship's laundry.
>
> We have a drink before meals and afterward as well. There's an O'Club
> at our operating location. We can leave the water running when we
> shower. They wash our airplanes so they don't look like something out
> of "Junkyard Wars" or "Mad Max".
>
> And, it is a helluva lot warmer in Colorado Springs in the winter than
> either West Point or Annapolis.
>
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> Smithsonian Institution Press
> ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Mike Kanze]

Ed,

>Now, OTOH, when I was there, we tapped an KA-6 after T/O. The nose-gunner
driving me around bragged later about his tanking ability--we took 1500
pounds to ease the cycle.

Being a fighter guy, he would have taken more had Tanker Control let him.
Having been - at times - the right-seat "gas passer" in the mighty K, I
heard ALL airborne whines and snivels of fighter guys begging for more. I
guess it's like being a whore or a traffic cop - in that position you hear
'em all. My stock answer (given when I was too bored or lazy to think of
anything else) was the equivalent of "tell it to the judge" (Tanker
Control).

>Everything else (i.e. mission) seemed to be secondary to coming aboard.

I can't speak for the FITRON Ready Rooms, but in Attack there was always
CEP, Bulls-Eye patches and Top Stick / Top Scope competitions. BTW, if you
can't get aboard, then you can't prosecute the mission. If you can get
aboard, you probably have the skills to do most anything.

>BTW, I did get to taste a bit of warm scotch in a paper cup while hunched
in a cramped C-position on the edge of a lower bunk with six guys in a 8x5
foot stateroom without a window, beneath a cat and next to an ammo hoist.
Nice life!

Hey, they could've sent you to one of the JO bunkrooms. Imagine a
fraternity house shoehorned into a phone booth and you'll get the idea. (I
understand that - in today's female JO bunkrooms - it's even more cramped.
"More stuff" is the reason I've heard. Women came aboard ship long after my
time.)

--
Mike Kanze

"And why is radicalism so strong in California? Because the State is run by
a dreadful combination of crooked politicians and grasping Babbitts."

- H. L. Mencken (1924)


"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> [rest snipped]

[John Carrier]

> I can't speak for the FITRON Ready Rooms, but in Attack there was always
> CEP, Bulls-Eye patches and Top Stick / Top Scope competitions. BTW, if
you
> can't get aboard, then you can't prosecute the mission. If you can get
> aboard, you probably have the skills to do most anything.

It's been my experience that with rare exceptions, most aviators have strong
suites and weaknesses. I've known many guys who were consistent top ten yet
a grape in ACM or a dullard in air-to-mud. Vice versa as well.

Your observation that the on and off the boat skill is necessary to mission
completion is spot on, but I've always thought it overemphasized. If an
aviator has achieved basic competence in carrier landings, there's no real
effort made to improve his remaining skills. (Put a string of no-grades on
the board and you'll get personal attention from CO, LSO, CAG LSO ... not
unreasonable ... but be a perennial loser elsewhere and you'll get the rep,
but rarely remedial training).

R / John

[Pechs1]

Had an exchange tour with the USAF..IP in 61st TFS and 13th TFTS..late 70's.
Flew F-4D after the US Gov't gave all the MacDill -E models to Egypt.

I was always impressed by the equipment, the JOs and my COs. Papy Fero and Mike
Ryan(yep, the same).

I became a great bomber, even in the trunk with radar nuke deliverys but the
USAF F-4 boys couldn't fight the A/C to 'save their life'. I had my way with
all of them including the Fighter Weapos School guys.

BUT my biggest gripe was when the Wing Commander didn't like it when I didn't
have my scarf on, or when I rolled up my sleeves too high or when I had my
brown boots on. There were more O-6s in the wing administration than on an
entire battle group. I loved the tour, great guys and great flying but you can
have the BS way to administer the aviators.


P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Ed Rasimus]

On 06 Mar 2004 14:54:49 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote:

>Had an exchange tour with the USAF..IP in 61st TFS and 13th TFTS..late 70's.
>Flew F-4D after the US Gov't gave all the MacDill -E models to Egypt.

Frustrating to say the least. I came out of SEA in F-4Es and went to
Torrejon Spain, only to watch the last of the E-models take off on a
realignment throughout USAFE which gave us the C-models. Flew Cs for
four years.
>
>I was always impressed by the equipment, the JOs and my COs. Papy Fero and Mike
>Ryan(yep, the same).

The AF does keep the birds clean and the list of delayed discrepancies
short. That doesn't happen on the boat as much because of supply
issues (at least from this long distance view).
>
>I became a great bomber, even in the trunk with radar nuke deliverys but the
>USAF F-4 boys couldn't fight the A/C to 'save their life'. I had my way with
>all of them including the Fighter Weapos School guys.

I'll let you brag, but would have to put a great big "that depends" on
the claim. In those days before ACMI, there was a lot of loudest guy
wins the debrief. I ran a lot of exercises in USAFE when I was in the
Hq. Many of them played AF vs USN and the opportunity to pit Eagles
against Tomcats was sought by all. The debrief usually was the Toms
claiming kills prior to the merge because of Phoenix and the Eagles
claiming WVR morts when turning/burning. (Of course those were
under-powered A-model Toms.)

Navy led the way (see I admit it!) on developing loose deuce/fluid
attack tactics and instituting lots of dissimilar. It took the AF a
long time to catch up.
>
>BUT my biggest gripe was when the Wing Commander didn't like it when I didn't
>have my scarf on, or when I rolled up my sleeves too high or when I had my
>brown boots on. There were more O-6s in the wing administration than on an
>entire battle group. I loved the tour, great guys and great flying but you can
>have the BS way to administer the aviators.

I'll have to agree. But, I'll also point out that at sea you don't
quite have the image problem that you do with interacting with lots of
non-combatant folks at a ground base. I'll also mention a couple of
times I x-country visited a USN base and had to change out of flying
clothes before I could leave base ops to get to quarters.

It's a function of leadership and different folks have different
priorities. I always enjoyed working for a warrior more than a
careerist. Shined boots are nice, but bombs on target are more
important.


>
Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Sergio]

WaltBJ a exposé le 05/03/2004 :

> Not too shabby for a 49 year old. Go Air Force! I even almost forgave
> DCS/P for that 4 years at a desk in USAFE after SEA.

Sorry Walt, can you explain the acronym DCS/P, I am not familiarized
with US military terms :-)
Thanks.

--
Sergio

[Steven P. McNicoll]

(Pechs1) wrote in message >...
>
> righto-we all had assigned seats everytime the USAF exchange officer came
> aboard the boat...better show than either the USMC pilot or the movie...
>

Yup. If you want to put an airplane on a boat, you best call the
Navy. If you want to put ordnance on a target, you best call the Air
Force.

[Pechs1]

<< Yup. If you want to put an airplane on a boat, you best call the
Navy. If you want to put ordnance on a target, you best call the Air
Force. >><BR><BR>

C'mon, you can do better than that. I liked the one 'the Navy makes moovies,
the airfarce makes history.'

Besides, I really like the ironed flight suits and those keen scarves..
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Pechs1]

Ed-<< The AF does keep the birds clean and the list of delayed discrepancies
short. That doesn't happen on the boat as much because of supply
issues (at least from this long distance view). >><BR><BR>

A corrosion cycle also meant a complete respray. 2600 or so maintainers for a
wing of 72 A/C...'bout twice what the USN would have on a CV...PLUS AIMD for
the USAF..lots of folks, very regimented.

I wrote the sked, 'forgot' to list BDUs for my own hop of 3 'cones' and me
leading. 'Expeditor', senior enlisted on the line, NEXT to a bomb cart and crew
WOULD NOT load my 4 A/C...another trip to see the Wing Commander. heaven forbid
they got a 'deviation'...but we lost 4 sorties.

Ed<< I'll let you brag, but would have to put a great big "that depends" on
the claim. In those days before ACMI, there was a lot of loudest guy
wins the debrief. >><BR><BR>

The 'D' model was first and foremost a bomber, conventional and nuke, no doubt
about that. These guys could bomb, both visual and radar..But the emphasis was
right there, not on ACM.

The F-15 was a whole different animal, like the Turkey, an A-A machine. I would
hope these guys could fight it..But the older guys in my squadaron were Thud
drivers and such...

Ed-
<< I'll also mention a couple of
times I x-country visited a USN base and had to change out of flying
clothes before I could leave base ops to get to quarters. >><BR><BR>

Should have did what I did...I said I was USN, that mystyfied them enough that
I could generally do what I wanted. Just say USAF, and strut out. They have no
control over you on a USN base.

BUT loved the tour as I said. Good JOs and good COs are the same everywhere.

P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Steven P. McNicoll]

(Pechs1) wrote in message >...
>
> C'mon, you can do better than that.
>

No need to.

[Jim Morris]

Combat Buckeye Phlyer????????????

--
jim morris

USN Ret.

Former Buckeye Maintainer VT 23

[WaltBJ]

One reason for wearing scarves is that the damned Nomex wears holes in
your neck as you look around. I learned to wear a scarf flying 86s and
wearing the old horse collar Mae West. I still got scars on my neck
from that piece of crap. And I mean good long silk scarves, not those
silly snap things. What? You don't look around? Then rots of ruck, GI!
Walt BJ

[Shaber CJ]

>Only in Navy Air do you get a single last shot to come aboard a pitching,
>rolling carrier by flying under a steel cable into a nylon net strung above
>the deck. And survive to brag about it! (just remember to pull that
>parachute pack out of your puckered sphincter before you deplane.
>
>WDA
>CDR USN
>
Gosh, that sounds fun for a while, but coming home to one's wife and kids
nighly sounds even better than spending 6-9 months on a boat full of men.

[Sergio]

Thank you, OJ.

--
Sergio

[Sergio]

Jim Morris vient de nous annoncer :

> Combat Buckeye Phlyer????????????

Combat Training, I think.

--
Sergio

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 3/7/04 10:35 PM, in article
, "WaltBJ"
> wrote:

> One reason for wearing scarves is that the damned Nomex wears holes in
> your neck as you look around.

If you fight a better jet, you don't have to look behind you. |:-) This is
most likely why Navy guys don't wear scarves.

> I learned to wear a scarf flying 86s and

Something seriously wrong with this statement.

> wearing the old horse collar Mae West. I still got scars on my neck
> from that piece of crap. And I mean good long silk scarves, not those
> silly snap things. What? You don't look around? Then rots of ruck, GI!
> Walt BJ

All kidding aside Walt, my hat's off to your service, but given my cultural
background, I doubt I'd ever get used to wearing one.

--Woody

[Pechs1]

Jim-<< Combat Buckeye Phlyer >><BR><BR>

You betcha-Owned 4 of these while in VF-126. Great little jet to throw around
in the F-14 stall/spin syllabus. very honest, very easy to fly.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Pechs1]

Shaber-<< Gosh, that sounds fun for a while, but coming home to one's wife and
kids
nighly sounds even better than spending 6-9 months on a boat full of men.
>><BR><BR>

Guess you never deployed to Osan....not many wives there, 1 R/R trip per tour,
kinda like a 6 month deployment with a 10,000 ft runway.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Pechs1]

roncachamp-<< No need to. >><BR><BR>

I guess that's the other thing I remember about 'some' USAF types, their lack
of a sense of humor.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Frank Minich]

What I remember: I pulled into many Navy and AF bases on XCs (the only
bachelor pilot in a Vigi squadron with three bachelor RANs). The duty
driver taking us to the BOQ: if an AF base, if you asked him a question,
you either got a short, succinct answer or "I don't know, sir"; if Navy,
you always got _some_ answer, maybe BS, but not short, and never "I don't
know, sir".

"Pechs1" > wrote in message
...
> roncachamp-<< No need to. >><BR><BR>
>
> I guess that's the other thing I remember about 'some' USAF types, their
lack
> of a sense of humor.
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
Phlyer

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Pechs1" > wrote in message
...
>
> I guess that's the other thing I remember about 'some' USAF types,
> their lack of a sense of humor.
>

Oh, they have it, it's just more sophisticated.

[Mike Kanze]

Ed,

A further thought concerning the emphasis placed upon the Greenie Board...

Since the boat is a pretty tight place from which to operate aircraft,
flight ops must be done efficiently and safely. Part of this need
translates into maximizing the boarding rate. This is done in at least two
ways:

* Minimizing the interval between successive approaches. (During my 1973
cruise aboard CORAL MARU, we strived for a 15 second trap-to-trap interval.)

* Maximizing the number of first-time arrestments.

An air wing with a highly-efficient boarding rate enables the ship to stay
within the Air Plan ("on-time" launch / land cycles more likely, greater
margin within which to deal with inevitable problems, etc.) and maximize the
number of sorties available.

Crews that predictably contribute to high boarding rates are valued
accordingly.

Also, the boat is the only place where crews can really hone this particular
skill. FCLPs are not - by themselves - adequate. Besides, time ashore is
better spent on honing warfighting skills so that - when you do finally
deploy - you do so ready to fight.

--
Mike Kanze

"The Project Uncertainty Principle says that if you understand a project,
you won't know its cost, and vice versa."

- Dilbert, August 6 2003


"Mike Kanze" > wrote in message
...
> Ed,
>
> >Now, OTOH, when I was there, we tapped an KA-6 after T/O. The nose-gunner
> driving me around bragged later about his tanking ability--we took 1500
> pounds to ease the cycle.
>
> Being a fighter guy, he would have taken more had Tanker Control let him.
> Having been - at times - the right-seat "gas passer" in the mighty K, I
> heard ALL airborne whines and snivels of fighter guys begging for more. I
> guess it's like being a whore or a traffic cop - in that position you hear
> 'em all. My stock answer (given when I was too bored or lazy to think of
> anything else) was the equivalent of "tell it to the judge" (Tanker
> Control).
>
> >Everything else (i.e. mission) seemed to be secondary to coming aboard.
>
> I can't speak for the FITRON Ready Rooms, but in Attack there was always
> CEP, Bulls-Eye patches and Top Stick / Top Scope competitions. BTW, if
you
> can't get aboard, then you can't prosecute the mission. If you can get
> aboard, you probably have the skills to do most anything.
>
> >BTW, I did get to taste a bit of warm scotch in a paper cup while hunched
> in a cramped C-position on the edge of a lower bunk with six guys in a 8x5
> foot stateroom without a window, beneath a cat and next to an ammo hoist.
> Nice life!
>
> Hey, they could've sent you to one of the JO bunkrooms. Imagine a
> fraternity house shoehorned into a phone booth and you'll get the idea.
(I
> understand that - in today's female JO bunkrooms - it's even more cramped.
> "More stuff" is the reason I've heard. Women came aboard ship long after
my
> time.)
>
> --
> Mike Kanze
>
> "And why is radicalism so strong in California? Because the State is run
by
> a dreadful combination of crooked politicians and grasping Babbitts."
>
> - H. L. Mencken (1924)
>
>
> "Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
> ...
> > [rest snipped]
>
>

[Ed Rasimus]

On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:11:29 -0800, "Mike Kanze"
> wrote:

>Ed,
>
>A further thought concerning the emphasis placed upon the Greenie Board...
>
>Since the boat is a pretty tight place from which to operate aircraft,
>flight ops must be done efficiently and safely. Part of this need
>translates into maximizing the boarding rate. This is done in at least two
>ways:
>
>* Minimizing the interval between successive approaches. (During my 1973
>cruise aboard CORAL MARU, we strived for a 15 second trap-to-trap interval.)
>
>* Maximizing the number of first-time arrestments.
>
>An air wing with a highly-efficient boarding rate enables the ship to stay
>within the Air Plan ("on-time" launch / land cycles more likely, greater
>margin within which to deal with inevitable problems, etc.) and maximize the
>number of sorties available.
>
>Crews that predictably contribute to high boarding rates are valued
>accordingly.
>
>Also, the boat is the only place where crews can really hone this particular
>skill. FCLPs are not - by themselves - adequate. Besides, time ashore is
>better spent on honing warfighting skills so that - when you do finally
>deploy - you do so ready to fight.

I realize the importance, but it was probably more a case of envy of
the "simple life." I, at the time, was an F-4 squadron Ops Officer. My
life revolved around getting all those front and back seaters to fill
all of those squares every six months. Contrasting the complexities of
home squadron life with a board that measured nothing but landing
grades was a confusing picture.

Of course that was also confused by the fact that I flew the very same
airplane (except for model number) as the host squadron on the boat,
not one single piece of my flight gear was compatible. My torso
harness was different. My G-suit zipped from top to bottom while yours
zipped from bottom to top. My Koch fittings were female to match with
male fittings on the seat, while the Navy harness held male fittings
and female on the M-B seat pack. Helmet was totally incompatible as
well.

Gotta say that it wasn't because one method was inherently superior to
the other.....


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[BUFDRVR]

>>Only in Navy Air do you get a single last shot to come aboard a pitching,
>>rolling carrier by flying under a steel cable into a nylon net strung above
>>the deck. And survive to brag about it!

Only in the Air Force do you get to take on 120,000 pounds of JP-8 in one shot
at night, in the weather over the middle of the Pacific.....wait a
minute....that wasn't that fun....disregard everything after "only in the Air
Force" ;)


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 3/8/04 6:45 PM, in article ,
"BUFDRVR" > wrote:

>>> Only in Navy Air do you get a single last shot to come aboard a pitching,
>>> rolling carrier by flying under a steel cable into a nylon net strung above
>>> the deck. And survive to brag about it!
>
> Only in the Air Force do you get to take on 120,000 pounds of JP-8 in one shot
> at night, in the weather over the middle of the Pacific.....wait a
> minute....that wasn't that fun....disregard everything after "only in the Air
> Force" ;)
>

BUF,

Having watched the heavy v. heavy refueling evolution during the day, my
hat's off to you guys. That's NOT easy.

--Woody

[Mike Kanze]

Ed,

>Gotta say that it wasn't because one method was inherently superior to the
other.....

Roger that. As this NG demonstrates daily, Blue Suit ways are often equally
mysterious to we Brownshoes.

--
Mike Kanze

"The Project Uncertainty Principle says that if you understand a project,
you won't know its cost, and vice versa."

- Dilbert, August 6 2003


"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:11:29 -0800, "Mike Kanze"
> > wrote:
> [rest snipped]

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

I've seen greenie boards go through several mutations...

Some squadron's it's the center of the ready room. One squadron on my last
cruise had a rubber turd (placed on the ready room chair of the no-grade
ball-flyer of the night) and a large 3/4 inch bolt (hung above the ready
room chair of the last dude to bolter). Funny stuff.

I've seen squadrons (even this last cruise) try to eliminate the greenie
board. Some (VFA-146 circa 1996-1998) made it work very well (winning
nearly 6 line periods in a row). Some (VF-211 same time period) tried to
mimic that behavior with less than optimum results.

My last cruise, one squadron OPSO tried to eliminate the greenie board and
met with fierce resistance from his JO LSO's. The head LSO even wrote a
bogus "history of the greenie board" point paper to defend it.

Seems to me that the squadrons that won line periods had either (a) more
experience than most other squadrons (i.e. less nuggets), (b) better jets
(i.e. Hornets over Tomcats... Although not ALWAYS the case), or most
importantly, (c) actually covered pattern and ball flying technique daily as
a 3 minute portion of every admin brief.

Then, of course, there's just dumb luck and talent.

--Woody

In 3/8/04 2:11 PM, in article , "Mike
Kanze" > wrote:

> Ed,
>
> A further thought concerning the emphasis placed upon the Greenie Board...
>
> Since the boat is a pretty tight place from which to operate aircraft,
> flight ops must be done efficiently and safely. Part of this need
> translates into maximizing the boarding rate. This is done in at least two
> ways:
>
> * Minimizing the interval between successive approaches. (During my 1973
> cruise aboard CORAL MARU, we strived for a 15 second trap-to-trap interval.)
>
> * Maximizing the number of first-time arrestments.
>
> An air wing with a highly-efficient boarding rate enables the ship to stay
> within the Air Plan ("on-time" launch / land cycles more likely, greater
> margin within which to deal with inevitable problems, etc.) and maximize the
> number of sorties available.
>
> Crews that predictably contribute to high boarding rates are valued
> accordingly.
>
> Also, the boat is the only place where crews can really hone this particular
> skill. FCLPs are not - by themselves - adequate. Besides, time ashore is
> better spent on honing warfighting skills so that - when you do finally
> deploy - you do so ready to fight.

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 3/8/04 3:55 PM, in article ,
"Ed Rasimus" > wrote:

> On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:11:29 -0800, "Mike Kanze"
> > wrote:
<SNIP>
> I realize the importance, but it was probably more a case of envy of
> the "simple life." I, at the time, was an F-4 squadron Ops Officer. My
> life revolved around getting all those front and back seaters to fill
> all of those squares every six months. Contrasting the complexities of
> home squadron life with a board that measured nothing but landing
> grades was a confusing picture.
>

I have a hunch that the Navy OPSO's of the time tracked that stuff (if at
all) only on some spreadsheet (if at all) that they shared with the Skipper.
The tendency on cruise (especially then) was to gaff off readiness on cruise
because of the lack of training assets (ranges/bombs/training fuel on max
conserve cyclic ops).

These days, valid shot boards, valid release boards, SFWT syllabi, and
readiness tracking via SHARPS are the rule of the day. The Navy is
desperately trying to emulate the USAF's ops/admin.

> Of course that was also confused by the fact that I flew the very same
> airplane (except for model number) as the host squadron on the boat,
> not one single piece of my flight gear was compatible. My torso
> harness was different. My G-suit zipped from top to bottom while yours
> zipped from bottom to top. My Koch fittings were female to match with
> male fittings on the seat, while the Navy harness held male fittings
> and female on the M-B seat pack. Helmet was totally incompatible as
> well.
>
> Gotta say that it wasn't because one method was inherently superior to
> the other.....
>

Amen... Except that I prefer not to have to drag a 'chute around with me.
I've grown accustomed to the torso harness.

--Woody

[WaltBJ]

Better airplane? When I was flying 86s out of Naha on Oki-knock-knock
the Navy was flying Panthers - and the Gutless. Even when we switched
to F86Ds we could eat both of those beasts alive. During my career the
only Navy fighter we respected was the Crusader - everything else was
toast to our 104s. Then when we got the Dash 19 engine and a 25%
thrust increase there weren't any more Crusaders around! Damn, that
F8 was one fine machine. I had four friends flew it on exchange - 2
Marine and 2 Navy. I also had 2 friends fly the Demon on exchange -
the less said about that the better. One of them (Larry Davis) had a
ramp strike but his part of the Drut slid up the flight deck and he
was okay. I always wondered if he got a medal for reducing the
inventory of Demons by one.
Walt BJ

[Sergio]

WaltBJ avait énoncé :

> I always wondered if he got a medal for reducing the
> inventory of Demons by one.

Why was this plane so awful ?

--
Sergio
Marchand à la petite semaine

[Greasy Rider]

On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 11:40:23 +0100, Sergio >
disturbed the phosphur particles on my screen with the following:

>WaltBJ avait énoncé :
>
>> I always wondered if he got a medal for reducing the
>> inventory of Demons by one.
>
>Why was this plane so awful ?

Under powered would be my guess.

[Pechs1]

roncachamp-<< Oh, they have it, it's just more sophisticated. >><BR><BR>

Righto sport, why don't ya take the pack off?


P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Ogden Johnson III]

Ed Rasimus > wrote:

>I realize the importance, but it was probably more a case of envy of
>the "simple life." I, at the time, was an F-4 squadron Ops Officer. My
>life revolved around getting all those front and back seaters to fill
>all of those squares every six months. Contrasting the complexities of
>home squadron life with a board that measured nothing but landing
>grades was a confusing picture.

You would have loved the board we created at VMA-231 - all of
those night/instrument hours, approach, etc."currency" items, the
entire AV-8A syllabus with *that* currency for each flight in the
syllabus. Damn thing was 18+ feet long, and updated each morning
with the previous day's flight info. Once each month, all the
syllabus flights whose currency had expired, changed their
"month" designation from black to red. Pilots short of
night/instrument hours/approaches, etc., were the same, in red
until they met the six-month minimum. Dates for physiology
requirements, NATOPS checks, etc. - dates in black until
expiration two months away, then yellow until actual
expiration/renewal, red if expired.

Flight officer and OpsOs loved it, my clerks hated it. Went
through a gallon of plexi-cleaner and a bale of rags every
quarter.
--
OJ III
[Email sent to Yahoo addy is burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast]

[BUFDRVR]

>> Only in the Air Force do you get to take on 120,000 pounds of JP-8 in one
>shot
>> at night, in the weather over the middle of the Pacific.....wait a
>> minute....that wasn't that fun....disregard everything after "only in the
>Air
>> Force" ;)
>>
>
>BUF,
>
>Having watched the heavy v. heavy refueling evolution during the day, my
>hat's off to you guys. That's NOT easy.
>
>--Woody

And while it may not technically be fun, there is a sense of accomplishment
once your done.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[WaltBJ]

Greasy Rider > wrote in message >...
> On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 11:40:23 +0100, Sergio >
> disturbed the phosphur particles on my screen with the following:
>
> >WaltBJ avait énoncé :
> >
> >> I always wondered if he got a medal for reducing the
> >> inventory of Demons by one.
> >
> >Why was this plane so awful ?
>
> Under powered would be my guess.

Correct - and also short-legged. The only fighter I know of that had a
mod that incorporated an emergency afterburner switch that when
activated would light the AB in idle. Larry told us it was for use in
just such cases as he had - going low close-in when it was desperately
needed to avert a ramp strike. He dropped in to visit us at RG AFB
(south side of Kansas City MO) and the only place he could get to on
an IFR flight plan (alternate required) was NAS Memphis. ISTR that's
about 300 miles . . . .
Walt BJ

[Elmshoot]

>And while it may not technically be fun, there is a sense of accomplishment
>once your done.
>

Buf,
Reminds me of the old joke about a Fat girl and a scooter. A lot of fun but you
don't want your friends to know you are doing either one.
Sparky

[vincent p. norris]

> The only fighter I know of that had a
>mod that incorporated an emergency afterburner switch that when
>activated would light the AB in idle. Larry told us it was for use in
>just such cases as he had - going low close-in when it was desperately
>needed to avert a ramp strike.

All the airplanes I flew in the marines had propellers on the front
end. Sudden application of power at slow speeds could produce
surprising, and possibly fatal, results.So the above paragraph raises
two questions in my mind:

1. Aren't all jet engines slow in responding when the throttle is
pushed forward? (Isn't that why full power is applied when hitting
the deck?)

2. Is the engine idling when a jet approaches the ramp? I thought
it was a powered approach. Would a prudent pilot cut the power to
idle, if a little high, if the engines respond slowly? Seems to me if
he were that high, it would be smart to start a go-round.

vince norris

[Juvat]

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, BUFDRVR
blurted out:

>And while it may not technically be fun, there is a sense of accomplishment
>once your done.

So is taking a HUGE dump.

Juvat

[Juvat]

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Pechs
blurted out:

>Had an exchange tour with the USAF..IP in 61st TFS and 13th TFTS..late 70's.
>Flew F-4D after the US Gov't gave all the MacDill -E models to Egypt.

>BUT my biggest gripe was when the Wing Commander didn't like it when I didn't
>have my scarf on, or when I rolled up my sleeves too high or when I had my
>brown boots on.

In 1987 stationed at Kunsan, a new arrival was an AF type whose
previous tour was an exchange with VF-2 (I think) aboard the
Ranger...Bob "Motown" Records.

When Motown showed up TDY at MacDill for F-16 RTU (that'd be the RAG
for my naval brethren) from his exchange tour, he walked into the
squadron in the finest of naval traditions...wearing a polo shirt
under his bag, "Motown" name tag, a ratty hat stuffed in a pocket
somewhere, boots that had been run through the garbage disposal,
sleeves up above his elbows, collar turned up...your basic, one each,
manly man doing manly things in a manly manner.

The Wing King just happened to be flying with that squadron that day.
Wing King noticed Motown, and greeted him and asked if he was a Navy
exchange pilot.

"Yes sir."

Wing King asked how long Motown had been in the Navy.

"Oh I'm not in the Navy, I'm an AF pilot on an exchange tour WITH the
Navy."

[pause for effect...] At this point the WK turned to the Sqdn CO and
just nodded...the Sqdn CO nodded. Motown got "squared away" ASAP.

Motown enjoyed his cruise on the Ranger. In fact at one point one guy
borrowed Motown's "100 Traps on the Ranger" patch and had 24 made up
that said, "I've Heard 100 Ranger Stories" For some strange reason
Motown stopped talking about the boat when we started wearing our
patches.

Motown also loved to call the squadron commander "skipper." The chorus
in response was usually, "Gilligan!" or "What is it little buddy?"

Juvat

[vincent p. norris]

>It is a power on approach, on speed angle of attack, constant attitude until
>touchdown followed by full power at touchdown whether ya got a wire or not.

That's what I thought. Thanks.

>I think the early jet, straight deck boys did a 'cut' pass-no?

Don't know, but with a/c up ahead on the straight deck, I would guess
so.

>With some of the centrifical type engines, like in the F-9, I'm sure it was 'interesting'.

As you probably know, when Charleton Heston has a ramp strike in his
SBD, in the movie "Midway," it was really an F9F. I''ve heard the
pilot survived that, but I'm sure it was "interesting."

vince norris

[Pechs1]

f4phantom-<< n 1987 stationed at Kunsan, a new arrival was an AF type whose
previous tour was an exchange with VF-2 (I think) aboard the
Ranger...Bob "Motown" Records. >><BR><BR>

Great story, too bad Motown was put thru the USAF 'shredder' so fast. Hopefully
he didn't forget the good things he learned in the USN about how to fly.


P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Pechs1]

vpn-<< 1. Aren't all jet engines slow in responding when the throttle is
pushed forward? (Isn't that why full power is applied when hitting
the deck?)

Depends-Smaller diameter turbojet engines had very quick spool up. Not like a
prop but fast. Bigger diameter engines and turbofans, VERY large diameter were
definately slower, but you learned how to 'fly' the engine you had.

2. Is the engine idling when a jet approaches the ramp? I thought
it was a powered approach. Would a prudent pilot cut the power to
idle, if a little high, if the engines respond slowly? Seems to me if
he were that high, it would be smart to start a go-round.

It is a power on approach, on speed angle of attack, constant attitude until
touchdown followed by full power at touchdown whether ya got a wire or not.

I think the early jet, straight deck boys did a 'cut' pass-no? With some of the
centrifical type engines, like in the F-9, I'm sure it was 'interesting'.

vince norris





>><BR><BR>

P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Joe Osman]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Pechs1" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I guess that's the other thing I remember about 'some' USAF types,
> > their lack of a sense of humor.
> >
>
> Oh, they have it, it's just more sophisticated.
>
>
We've got a lot of USAF posters in the halls here at the Air Force Research
Laboratory Rome Research Site (formerly Griffiss AFB). Many say "America's
Air Force-No One Comes Close." When I asked a colonel if the last phrase was
about their personal hygiene, he quickly replied that it referred to their
bombing accuracy.

Joe




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

[W. D. Allen Sr.]

Speaking of the Air Force, I will never forget my AF captain neighbor at
grad school. Three rows of ribbons and he had never been outside CONUS.
Whereas us Navy and Marine pukes were studying such exciting subjects as
space flight, aerodynamics, thermodynamics, etc. he was immersed in MEDIEVAL
history. And that's a fact!

WDA

end

"Shaber CJ" > wrote in message
...
> >Only in Navy Air do you get a single last shot to come aboard a pitching,
> >rolling carrier by flying under a steel cable into a nylon net strung
above
> >the deck. And survive to brag about it! (just remember to pull that
> >parachute pack out of your puckered sphincter before you deplane.
> >
> >WDA
> >CDR USN
> >
> Gosh, that sounds fun for a while, but coming home to one's wife and kids
> nighly sounds even better than spending 6-9 months on a boat full of men.

[BUFDRVR]

>>And while it may not technically be fun, there is a sense of accomplishment
>>once your done.
>
>So is taking a HUGE dump.
>

Hmmm, at least in the bomber community, taking a dump is not considered an
accomplishment.....I always suspected it was in the fighter community though...


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Ed Rasimus]

On 11 Mar 2004 22:47:55 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

>
>Hmmm, at least in the bomber community, taking a dump is not considered an
>accomplishment.....I always suspected it was in the fighter community though...
>
>
>BUFDRVR
>
Certainly in the airplane it is....

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[BUFDRVR]

>>Hmmm, at least in the bomber community, taking a dump is not considered an
>>accomplishment.....I always suspected it was in the fighter community
>though...
>>
>>
>>BUFDRVR
>>
>Certainly in the airplane it is....

I've heard audio of that....didn't sound like either guy (F-15E or F-16D)
thought it was an accomplishment ;)


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Juvat]

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, BUFDRVR
blurted out:

>Hmmm, at least in the bomber community, taking a dump is not considered an
>accomplishment.....I always suspected it was in the fighter community though...
>

Fair enough, but by a show of hands, how many aviators in this august
forum ever heard of a guy/gal in ANY pilot training class actually
volunteering for B-52s...when they could have had any fighter they
wanted. You are an anomaly...deviation from the common rule
....something different, abnormal, peculiar, or not easily classified.

I suppose your BUFF comrades look at you with a YGBSM expression when
you announce..."Yeah, BUFFs were my first choice..."

YMMV...

Juvat

[Andrew Venor]

vincent p. norris wrote:
>>It is a power on approach, on speed angle of attack, constant attitude until
>>touchdown followed by full power at touchdown whether ya got a wire or not.
>
>
> That's what I thought. Thanks.
>
>
>>I think the early jet, straight deck boys did a 'cut' pass-no?
>
>
> Don't know, but with a/c up ahead on the straight deck, I would guess
> so.
>
>
>>With some of the centrifical type engines, like in the F-9, I'm sure it was 'interesting'.
>
>
> As you probably know, when Charleton Heston has a ramp strike in his
> SBD, in the movie "Midway," it was really an F9F. I''ve heard the
> pilot survived that, but I'm sure it was "interesting."
>
> vince norris

Wasn't that same footage used for the F-14 ramp strike in the movie The
Hunt for Red October as well?

ALV

[Krztalizer]

>> As you probably know, when Charleton Heston has a ramp strike in his
>> SBD, in the movie "Midway," it was really an F9F. I''ve heard the
>> pilot survived that, but I'm sure it was "interesting."
>>
>> vince norris
>
>Wasn't that same footage used for the F-14 ramp strike in the movie The
>Hunt for Red October as well?

Same footage - but I thought the ass-buster was an FH, not a Panther? Not too
familiar with the first generation of carrier jets, but I always had a real
attraction to the Panthers (of 'Toko Ri') and I remember thinking that it was
something other than an F9F cracking up on the round down.

v/r
Gordon


<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

[Pechs1]

WD-<< Speaking of the Air Force, I will never forget my AF captain neighbor at
grad school. Three rows of ribbons and he had never been outside CONUS.
>><BR><BR>

Generally in the USN there were no awards for 'faithful service'. The difficult
was routine, the impossible just took a little longer. Not many 'I've been
there ' awards in the USN...A NAM or a NCM was a special award. A MSM really
something special.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Pechs1]

VPN-<< As you probably know, when Charleton Heston has a ramp strike in his
SBD, in the movie "Midway," it was really an F9F. I''ve heard the
pilot survived that, but I'm sure it was "interesting." >><BR><BR>

I met his daughter, the guy that hit the ramp, not Mr Heston.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Pechs1]

bufdrvr-<< Hmmm, at least in the bomber community, taking a dump is not
considered an
accomplishment.....I always suspected it was in the fighter community though..
>><BR><BR>

Yep, but you can get up, wander back past the bunks with lace curtains, sit
down in the ****ter while listening to music or watch a DVD, while the 'stew'
is busy making your lunch...
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Pechs1]

I knew a guy that took a dump in his helmet bag tho, while airborne. He was
happy the autopilot worked...
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Elmshoot]

>I knew a guy that took a dump in his helmet bag tho, while airborne. He was
>happy the autopilot worked...

Had a BN in VA-95 who took a dump in his Nav bag. Poor pilot had to sit there
and fly the plane while that was going on. I'll bet his mask was on and tight
when that was happening. It was a 9 hour flight.

Pilot (XO) in VAQ-135 who discovered about mid **** his relief tube was blocked
up so he told the ECMO 1 to give him his water bottle who whinned about it. He
dumped the contents of the water bottle into the floor then poured the contents
of the relief tube and his bladder into the bottle put the lid on and handed it
back to the still really whinning ECMO 1. The AME's were really happy he did
it that way since water is easy to clean up.

Finally when I was in VAQ-35 we had a Femail NF0 in ECMO 3 seat with a guy who
loathed women in the military and in particular this one who witnesed her strip
down sufficently for her to take a leak in a relief tube. I asked him what
color her skivies were and he said he didn't even look. It was on a formation
flight so the other flight got to watch and tease, as well. For her going away
present I gave her a funnel.
Sparky

[Allen Epps]

In article >, Elmshoot
> wrote:

> >I knew a guy that took a dump in his helmet bag tho, while airborne. He was
> >happy the autopilot worked...
>
> Had a BN in VA-95 who took a dump in his Nav bag. Poor pilot had to sit there
> and fly the plane while that was going on. I'll bet his mask was on and tight
> when that was happening. It was a 9 hour flight.
>
> Pilot (XO) in VAQ-135 who discovered about mid **** his relief tube was
> blocked
> up so he told the ECMO 1 to give him his water bottle who whinned about it. He
> dumped the contents of the water bottle into the floor then poured the
> contents
> of the relief tube and his bladder into the bottle put the lid on and handed
> it
> back to the still really whinning ECMO 1. The AME's were really happy he did
> it that way since water is easy to clean up.
>
> Finally when I was in VAQ-35 we had a Femail NF0 in ECMO 3 seat with a guy who
> loathed women in the military and in particular this one who witnesed her
> strip
> down sufficently for her to take a leak in a relief tube. I asked him what
> color her skivies were and he said he didn't even look. It was on a formation
> flight so the other flight got to watch and tease, as well. For her going away
> present I gave her a funnel.
> Sparky


Ahhhh, another Floater story! She was good for a bunch
Pugs

[Ed Rasimus]

On 12 Mar 2004 14:19:03 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote:

>I knew a guy that took a dump in his helmet bag tho, while airborne. He was
>happy the autopilot worked...
>P. C. Chisholm

We had a guy with us in Fighter Lead-In at Holloman flying AT-38s. He
went X-C for a weekend on the Gulf Coast and finished off Saturday
night with a load of fresh seafood and shrimp.

Enroute home, solo, at FL 350 he got the urge--first a twinge and then
an insistance that could not be ignored. He debated, considered,
planned and finally decided that he must. He trimmed carefully, then
pinned his seat (wouldn't do to eject oneself with trou around the
ankles). Finally he began unstrapping. Fortunately he hadn't worn a
G-suit that day. Shrugged out of the parachute harness, but still
clumsily linked by helmet and oxygen mask to the CRU-60 connector on
the left shoulder strap, he then worked his way out of his flight
suit--urgency making his movements increasingly frantic. Finally,
shorts down and helmet bag retrieved from where he had been sitting on
it, opened and carefully positioned below him. His squadron scarf
removed for finish-up duty he released and in the process, nudged the
throttles.

The old J-85s at high altitude had become increasingly intolerant of
rapid throttle movements and as we had often been warned, both engines
promptly flamed out. Sudden silence as the engines spooled down and
the airplane dutifully maintained its trimmed-for speed and began a
rapid descent. Battery power to the radio almost immediately gave a
call from Albuquerque Center asking why he was deviating from his
assigned altitude.

Panicked, he know sat down on the helmet bag with the expected
dirty-diaper squishiness and grabbed for stick while punching at the
airstart buttons. The engines reliably responded and he climbed back
to altitude, flight suit and shorts around ankles, out of parachute
harness, and with no hope of recovering without the world knowing of
the events.

He landed back at HMN to considerable embarassment and an unhappy crew
chief and life-support NCO. He gained a new nickname in the squadron
as well, forever after being known as "Dirty Dan" (last name withheld
to maintain any remaining vestige of dignity for the poor guy.)



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Krztalizer]

What's the problem with peein' inflight? Geez, guys, you just ask the pilot to
fly in a slight right hand bank, slide the door open, stand there letting it
all hang out and do your business. What's so difficult??

:)

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

[Dave Kearton]

"Krztalizer" > wrote in message
...
| What's the problem with peein' inflight? Geez, guys, you just ask the
pilot to
| fly in a slight right hand bank, slide the door open, stand there letting
it
| all hang out and do your business. What's so difficult??
|
| :)
|
| v/r
| Gordon
| <====(A+C====>
| USN SAR



I've done that on a bus, not surprisingly there must be more turbulence
when peeing in ground effect.






Cheers


Dave Kearton

[George Shirley]

I have the same problem Gordon. I crewed on R4Y's, R4D's, and R6D's, we
had heads in the back. what's so difficult about finding a place and a
way to pee? Oh did I mention that a heliocopter flying is just wrong,
ain't getting in no plane without wings and I still like propellers too.
<BSEG>

George

Krztalizer wrote:

> What's the problem with peein' inflight? Geez, guys, you just ask the pilot to
> fly in a slight right hand bank, slide the door open, stand there letting it
> all hang out and do your business. What's so difficult??
>
> :)
>
> v/r
> Gordon
> <====(A+C====>
> USN SAR
>
> Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
> reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.
>

[BUFDRVR]

>You are an anomaly...deviation from the common rule
>...something different, abnormal, peculiar, or not easily classified.

I suppose.... but out of my UPT class, I'm the only one who has ever applied
his trade in combat...I guess its just a case of why you wanted to be an Air
Force pilot. The two guys in my class who took F-15Cs have probably had a lot
of fun flying around the local MOA and out at RED FLAG, but that's not what I
wanted to do.

>I suppose your BUFF comrades look at you with a YGBSM expression when
>you announce..."Yeah, BUFFs were my first choice..."

A few of them do, but most also realize that, at least since 1995, B-52s have
made a tremendous impact on the National Security of the U.S. and its the
platform to be in if that's your goal. Flying around the flag pole at Mach 2
may be pretty cool, but it pales in comparison to dropping a JDAM on a Taliban
mortor team in regards to defending the country.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

>Yep, but you can get up, wander back past the bunks with lace curtains,

Hmm...

>sitdown in the ****ter

Have never taken a dump on a BUFF (even on several 30+ hour sorties)...and hope
to God I never have to.

>while listening to music or watch a DVD

The pilots can't really watch a DVD, no place to put the player in the pilots
station....although I have listened to more than my share of movies droning
back from Afghanistan.

>while the 'stew'is busy making your lunch.

Boy...that would be great...


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[sid]

(Pechs1) wrote in message >...
> down in the ****ter while listening to music or watch a DVD, while the 'stew'
> is busy making your lunch...
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

I wouldn't advise calling any flight attendants a "stew" *before* you
get that lunch...No telling what that "sauce" may be.

[Ed Rasimus]

On 12 Mar 2004 22:40:52 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

>>You are an anomaly...deviation from the common rule
>>...something different, abnormal, peculiar, or not easily classified.
>
>I suppose.... but out of my UPT class, I'm the only one who has ever applied
>his trade in combat...I guess its just a case of why you wanted to be an Air
>Force pilot. The two guys in my class who took F-15Cs have probably had a lot
>of fun flying around the local MOA and out at RED FLAG, but that's not what I
>wanted to do.
>
>>I suppose your BUFF comrades look at you with a YGBSM expression when
>>you announce..."Yeah, BUFFs were my first choice..."
>
>A few of them do, but most also realize that, at least since 1995, B-52s have
>made a tremendous impact on the National Security of the U.S. and its the
>platform to be in if that's your goal. Flying around the flag pole at Mach 2
>may be pretty cool, but it pales in comparison to dropping a JDAM on a Taliban
>mortor team in regards to defending the country.
>
>
>BUFDRVR

While I understand your pride in accomplishment as well as your
rationale of going to a combat system, I've got to say that my reading
of the papers (as well as encounters with a lot of Ego and Viper
types) would seem to indicate that both Desert Storm and Iraqi Freedom
(as well as the Afghan and Bosnia excursions) have had more than
enough opportunity for the tactical types to get a whiff of gunpowder.

Might we be a bit parochial here?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Juvat]

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, BUFDRVR
blurted out:

>>You are an anomaly...deviation from the common rule
>>...something different, abnormal, peculiar, or not easily classified.
>
>I suppose.... but out of my UPT class, I'm the only one who has ever applied
>his trade in combat...

Dude...did you read that last sentence before you hit "send?" You
think any of your UPT buds in C-130s hauling bullets and beans would
buy that self-serving BS? Think KC-135/-10 guys passing gas would nod
their head in agreement?

How about the EWOs or DSOs in your jet? How many SAM or AI radars have
they battled since 1995?

....And if it's true that your F-16/F-15E classmates have not dropped
live in Iraq or Afghanistan...the system is ****ed up 'cause every
swinging dick ANG air-to-mud guy/gal has over the course of several
deployments since 1991.

>I guess its just a case of why you wanted to be an Air Force pilot.

Hey easy for me...I wanted to be the commander of USAFE, or TAC, say
"Two, Bingo, Mayday...Lead you're on fire." I wanted to eat jager
schnitzel mit pomme frites in the german village where I lived for
three year; I didn't want to spend all my career PCS'd to CONUS; I
wanted to fly fast and low and hear BRASSMONKEY on Guard; Ivan and Kim
Il-Sung were the enemy.

I didn't ask myself, "Self...which aerial platform will most likely
provide the greatest benefit in terms of standoff weapons employement
with the concomitant minimum sorties."

I wanted to have fun while running around in a green and brown mottled
Phantoms with my fangs out, hair on fire.

>A few of them do, but most also realize that, at least since 1995, B-52s have
>made a tremendous impact on the National Security of the U.S. and its the
>platform to be in if that's your goal. Flying around the flag pole at Mach 2
>may be pretty cool, but it pales in comparison to dropping a JDAM on a Taliban
>mortor team in regards to defending the country.

A noble jesture on your part, you had the prescience to select the
B-52...every UPT grad I ever asked says they wanted to fly fighters,
but they busted a check-ride, the wife/girlfriend rejected the notion,
etc. NOBODY ever said they wanted to fly BUFFS or tankers.

Bottom line...I respect you as an air warrior. I don't know you but
your claim that BUFFs (not even BONEs) were your first choice is
interesting.

Juvat

[Ed Rasimus]

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 23:54:17 GMT, Juvat >
wrote:

>Dude...did you read that last sentence before you hit "send?" You
>think any of your UPT buds in C-130s hauling bullets and beans would
>buy that self-serving BS? Think KC-135/-10 guys passing gas would nod
>their head in agreement?
>
>How about the EWOs or DSOs in your jet? How many SAM or AI radars have
>they battled since 1995?
>
>...And if it's true that your F-16/F-15E classmates have not dropped
>live in Iraq or Afghanistan...the system is ****ed up 'cause every
>swinging dick ANG air-to-mud guy/gal has over the course of several
>deployments since 1991.
>
>Hey easy for me...I wanted to be the commander of USAFE, or TAC, say
>"Two, Bingo, Mayday...Lead you're on fire." I wanted to eat jager
>schnitzel mit pomme frites in the german village where I lived for
>three year; I didn't want to spend all my career PCS'd to CONUS; I
>wanted to fly fast and low and hear BRASSMONKEY on Guard; Ivan and Kim
>Il-Sung were the enemy.
>
>I didn't ask myself, "Self...which aerial platform will most likely
>provide the greatest benefit in terms of standoff weapons employement
>with the concomitant minimum sorties."
>
>I wanted to have fun while running around in a green and brown mottled
>Phantoms with my fangs out, hair on fire.
>
>A noble jesture on your part, you had the prescience to select the
>B-52...every UPT grad I ever asked says they wanted to fly fighters,
>but they busted a check-ride, the wife/girlfriend rejected the notion,
>etc. NOBODY ever said they wanted to fly BUFFS or tankers.
>
>Bottom line...I respect you as an air warrior. I don't know you but
>your claim that BUFFs (not even BONEs) were your first choice is
>interesting.
>
>Juvat

Twoop!!

And, "Lead, you really are on fire...."


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[BUFDRVR]

>While I understand your pride in accomplishment as well as your
>rationale of going to a combat system, I've got to say that my reading
>of the papers (as well as encounters with a lot of Ego and Viper
>types) would seem to indicate that both Desert Storm and Iraqi Freedom
>(as well as the Afghan and Bosnia excursions) have had more than
>enough opportunity for the tactical types to get a whiff of gunpowder.
>

Ed, I never said the other numerous AF platforms haven't contributed, but no
aircraft, save the B-1B, has struck as many targets since 1995 as the B-52.
Additionally, since 1995, there has never been more than 45 operational B-52
aircrew at any one time. Your odds of getting deployed in an actual conflict
are astronomically higher than in every weapons system except the Bone or the
U-2. I've been friends with an F-16 pilot since 1997 and (at least prior to
OIF) he had not dropped a weapon in anger. So, once again, I'll state that if
your goal is to defend this country by being involved in its conflicts, your
best bet is a BUFF.

>Might we be a bit parochial here?

Not at all. Just some good natured "chest pumping" ;)


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

>>I suppose.... but out of my UPT class, I'm the only one who has ever applied
>>his trade in combat...
>
>Dude...did you read that last sentence before you hit "send?" You
>think any of your UPT buds in C-130s hauling bullets and beans

No one in my class got C-130's.

>would buy that self-serving BS?

Self serving ? It's a fact.

>Think KC-135/-10 guys passing gas would nod their head in agreement?

Only 1 KC-135 in my class, did the third pilot thing, went back to AETC to fly
-37s.
The only guy I may have short changed in my class was a guy going to T-37's
with a C-17 follow on, but I later heard he stayed in -37s, not sure where he
is now.

>How about the EWOs or DSOs in your jet? How many SAM or AI radars have
>they battled since 1995?

Every combat sortie I've flown, if the EW wasn't jamming something, he was
helping out by copying 9-lines and backing up the Nav team on targeting.

>...And if it's true that your F-16/F-15E classmates have not dropped
>live in Iraq or Afghanistan...the system is ****ed up 'cause every
>swinging dick ANG air-to-mud guy/gal has over the course of several
>deployments since 1991.

Only 1 F-16 guy (forgot about him in my earlier post) who was flying Cs out of
Cannon. He *may* have gotten some OIF time, but I'm not sure. The only other
fighter guys were F-15Cs.

>I didn't want to spend all my career PCS'd to CONUS

I feel the exact opposite.

>I didn't ask myself, "Self...which aerial platform will most likely
>provide the greatest benefit in terms of standoff weapons employement
>with the concomitant minimum sorties."

We do more than stand-off...I would think you would know that. In fact, I've
only flown 1 CALCM combat sortie. And I didn't ask my self that question
either. I wanted to drop a lot of weapons and be involved in the conflicts this
nation fought. Your ego must be *huge* if you can't grasp that not everyone
wants to do what you do.

>every UPT grad I ever asked says they wanted to fly fighters

Well, if you ever run into a Viper pilot, call sign Tank, from Class 95-10 at
Vance ask him about the guy in his class who took the BUFF.

>but they busted a check-ride

Never busted a check-ride, in fact me, Tank and the #1 guy who took an Eagle
were the only ones in our class that dodged that.

>the wife/girlfriend rejected the notion

My wife could have cared less what aircraft I took...

>I don't know you but
>your claim that BUFFs (not even BONEs) were your first choice is
>interesting.

Well, originally showing up at Vance in June '94 I wanted a Bone, but there was
an ex-B-1B maintenance officer in my class (one of the Eagle drivers) and he
kind of talked me out of it. At the time, all the Bone could carry was Mk-82s
and they were even having problems with those. He told of the horrible FMC
rate and the number of cancelled sorties they had. By the time -38s rolled
around I had changed my mind and swapped my #2 (BUFF) for the Bone. I still
can't believe you're having trouble with this. I met guys in UPT who wanted
nothing more than to fly for the airlines and they wanted cargo, or even better
a KC-10. I watched an entire class of Academy grads pass up F-16s for C-21s to
Peterson AFB. There were two Vipers in that drop and they went to two guys in
the bottom of the class. Relax, neither made it out of IFF.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Dave in San Diego]

(sid) wrote in
om:

> (Pechs1) wrote in message
> >...
>> down in the ****ter while listening to music or watch a DVD, while
>> the 'stew' is busy making your lunch...
>> P. C. Chisholm
>> CDR, USN(ret.)
>> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
>> Phlyer
>
> I wouldn't advise calling any flight attendants a "stew" *before* you
> get that lunch...No telling what that "sauce" may be.
>

That's a no-****ter! I met a Navy C-9 flight attendant, wearing her blue
zoom bag, where my kids were getting child care and when I asked her what
her flying job was, she replied flight attendant. I then responded "Oh, a
stewardess" and she like to took my head off. We later became good
friends in spite of that, but I thought my future was dim for a second or
four.

Dave in San Diego

--
-
"For once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes
turned skyward;
For there you have been, and there you long to return."
Leonardo da Vinci

[sid]

(Pechs1) wrote in message >...
> VPN-<< As you probably know, when Charleton Heston has a ramp strike in his
> SBD, in the movie "Midway," it was really an F9F. I''ve heard the
> pilot survived that, but I'm sure it was "interesting." >><BR><BR>
>
> I met his daughter, the guy that hit the ramp, not Mr Heston.
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Wasn't his name Repp?

[Pechs1]

sid-<< I wouldn't advise calling any flight attendants a "stew" *before* you
get that lunch...No telling what that "sauce" may be. >><BR><BR>


Hee, heee, I never really 'rushed' the airlines so I don't have to be PC with
'stews'....
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Pechs1]

sid-<< Wasn't his name Repp? >><BR><BR>


geeez, i don't remember, it was in KeyWest and I was at happy hour...
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Pechs1]

<< Finally when I was in VAQ-35 we had a Femail NF0 in ECMO 3 seat with a guy
who
> loathed women in the military and in particular this one who witnesed her
> strip
> down sufficently for her to take a leak in a relief tube. >><BR><BR>

ahhh, chicks in USN aircraft, what a great idea....
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Pechs1]

Juvat-<< NOBODY ever said they wanted to fly BUFFS or tankers. >><BR><BR>

I actually knew a guy that 'wanted' P-3ss..honest..but yer right, most want
fastmovers. A bit different in the USN, when you are in the jet pipeline, you
are going to probably get a tactical jet but some 'wanted' S-3s and
EA-6Bs...but they squated to pee....
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Juvat]

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Pechs1
blurted out:

>I actually knew a guy that 'wanted' P-3ss..honest..but yer right, most want
>fastmovers. A bit different in the USN, when you are in the jet pipeline, you
>are going to probably get a tactical jet but some 'wanted' S-3s ...

I fly with a couple guys that wanted Hoovers or P-3s because they
planned to move on to the airlines...which leads me to another, "No
**** this really happened," story.

A DC-9 captain I flew with was a P-3 guy, USNA grad, active Blue &
Gold reservist...good guy, loved trading insults, "The Air Force
trains pilots...the Navy develops aviators...blah, blah, blah."

I'd come to find out that by the time Bill had gone thru flight
school, that guys going onto the P-3 no longer got to CQ. I saved that
bit of info for future reference.

Ahh yes, it was a beautiful day. The sun was shining, birds singing,
the flight attendants were friendly and hardbodies...and we had a
Marine A-4 guy on the jumpseat.

During the course of the short enroute segment we all got into a
discussion of the superiority of one's military flying experience.
Bill puffed out his chest with pride and repeated his litany, "the Air
Force trains pilots, the Navy develops aviators..."

The Marine smiled and nodded.

I admitted that I had never landed on the deck of a carrier and that
had to have been exciting, scary, interesting, different. So I asked
Bill what liked best about his CQ experience.

"Ahhh hmmm, guys in the P-3 pipeline didn't CQ when I went thru."

I nodded thoughtfully, paused to reflect and announced confidently,
"So Bill...you're just like an Air Force pilot!"

The Marine howled!

Bill declined to regale me with his naval superiority after that.

Juvat

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 3/13/04 8:36 AM, in article ,
"Pechs1" > wrote:

> Juvat-<< NOBODY ever said they wanted to fly BUFFS or tankers. >><BR><BR>
>
> I actually knew a guy that 'wanted' P-3ss..honest..but yer right, most want
> fastmovers. A bit different in the USN, when you are in the jet pipeline, you
> are going to probably get a tactical jet but some 'wanted' S-3s and
> EA-6Bs...but they squated to pee....
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

These days, gouge is the powers that be are forced to DRAFT dudes from
primary into the jet pipeline. (Masher, are you hearing this too?)

Apparently, folks don't want to put up with the extra year of BS that it
takes to earn your jet wings.

--Woody

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 3/13/04 8:30 AM, in article ,
"Pechs1" > wrote:

> << Finally when I was in VAQ-35 we had a Femail NF0 in ECMO 3 seat with a guy
> who
>> loathed women in the military and in particular this one who witnesed her
>> strip
>> down sufficently for her to take a leak in a relief tube. >><BR><BR>
>
> ahhh, chicks in USN aircraft, what a great idea....
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

This eventuality was covered about 6-7 years ago when a "universal relief
system" was developed--saw it in the Navy message traffic when the CO of
TOPGUN was showing it around at NSAWC and getting some pretty emotional
reaction to it.

The idea was to give a set of "Depends" to both male and female
aviators/NFO's so that the females could relieve themselves without having
to strip down and the males could do the same without
embarrassing/arousing/offending the females--especially in side-by-side
aircraft.

Males totally rejected the idea, and last I heard, female Hornet pilots were
somehow using piddle packs... although, I've never figured out the
hydromechanics of that evolution.

Some things, I'm happy just not knowing.

--Woody

[Mike Kanze]

I believe the pilot was George Duncan, USNA '39. George went on to command
RANGER during the early 1960s.

--
Mike Kanze

"The Project Uncertainty Principle says that if you understand a project,
you won't know its cost, and vice versa."

- Dilbert, August 6 2003


"Pechs1" > wrote in message
...
> VPN-<< As you probably know, when Charleton Heston has a ramp strike in
his
> SBD, in the movie "Midway," it was really an F9F. I''ve heard the
> pilot survived that, but I'm sure it was "interesting." >><BR><BR>
>
> I met his daughter, the guy that hit the ramp, not Mr Heston.
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
Phlyer

[Krztalizer]

> Males totally rejected the idea, and last I heard, female Hornet pilots
>weresomehow using piddle packs... although, I've never figured out
>thehydromechanics of that evolution.Some things, I'm happy just not
>knowing.--Woody

Piddle packs. My kid found two in a bottom drawer somewhere and held it out to
me, saying, "I don't want to know."

Had a pilot **** in the canteen once - tried to hand it back to me to dispose
of ("Are you nuts, sir?? Fling it out your own door!") but I don't recall using
one of those scanky-ass relief tubes (Is it plugged, or not? Care to find
out?) or even piddle packs for that matter. Most of our missions were less
than six hours and I had an 8-hour certification on my bladder so it was never
much of an issue. On @#$%# P-3 flights, it was.

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

Its always better to lose AN engine, than THE engine.

[Krztalizer]

>I believe the pilot was George Duncan, USNA '39. George went on to command
>RANGER during the early 1960s.
>

What type of a/c did he bust his ass in?
Thanks in advance.

v/r
Gordon

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 3/13/04 11:21 PM, in article
, "Krztalizer"
> wrote:

> Piddle packs. My kid found two in a bottom drawer somewhere and held it out
> to
> me, saying, "I don't want to know."
>
> Had a pilot **** in the canteen once - tried to hand it back to me to dispose
> of ("Are you nuts, sir?? Fling it out your own door!") but I don't recall
> using
> one of those scanky-ass relief tubes (Is it plugged, or not? Care to find
> out?) or even piddle packs for that matter. Most of our missions were less
> than six hours and I had an 8-hour certification on my bladder so it was never
> much of an issue. On @#$%# P-3 flights, it was.
>
> v/r
> Gordon

Personally, I felt it very important to be hydrated... especially over bad
guy country. It'd be a bad deal to get bagged and start out on the ground
short of water. On a 6.5 to 8 hour mission, I had to learn how to use the
piddle pack. Admittedly, it took some time to master. Always managed to
throw 2 to 3 overboard after the trap.

On the other hand, I fly with guys that can't make it through a 1.3 hour hop
without peeing at some point. Still can't figure that out.

--Woody

[Pechs1]

Juvat-<< I fly with a couple guys that wanted Hoovers or P-3s because they
planned to move on to the airlines. >><BR><BR>

Then they should have joined the USAF...I get peeved when a guy is already
looking toward his next career, before he has really gotten into his
first....BUT no airlines today!! Those weenies that rushed a trash hauler to
get into the airlines, got stuck in P-3s...and then 9/11...and the jobs dry up.



Juvat
<< I nodded thoughtfully, paused to reflect and announced confidently,
"So Bill...you're just like an Air Force pilot!" >><BR><BR>

yep, the P-3 community is the closest thing the USN has to the
USAF....microwave ovens and all.

P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Elmshoot]

>Personally, I felt it very important to be hydrated... especially over bad
>guy country. It'd be a bad deal to get bagged and start out on the ground
>short of water. On a 6.5 to 8 hour mission, I had to learn how to use the
>piddle pack. Admittedly, it took some time to master. Always managed to
>throw 2 to 3 overboard after the trap.
>
>On the other hand, I fly with guys that can't make it through a 1.3 hour hop
>without peeing at some point. Still can't figure that out.
>
>--Woody

Woody,
Good point about being well hydrated. Many times I should have drank more water
during the flight. In the Airlines I make a point to drink lots of water.
Back in the dark ages I when I was an NFO I flew with a guy named Larry Gardner
who couldn't make it to the 7 mile arc on a case 1 launch before he was going
for the relief tube. LOL
Sparky

[sid]

Juvat > wrote in message >...
> After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Pechs1
> blurted out:
>
> >I actually knew a guy that 'wanted' P-3ss..honest..but yer right, most want
> >fastmovers. A bit different in the USN, when you are in the jet pipeline, you
> >are going to probably get a tactical jet but some 'wanted' S-3s ...
>
> I fly with a couple guys that wanted Hoovers or P-3s because they
> planned to move on to the airlines...which leads me to another, "No
> **** this really happened," story.

I suppose Boeing thinks this attitude is an ace in the hole for their
737 MMA. Guys could come out of the box type rated.

[sid]

"Mike Kanze" > wrote in message >...
> I believe the pilot was George Duncan, USNA '39. George went on to command
> RANGER during the early 1960s.
>
> --
> Mike Kanze
Yep,you're right. CDR Duncan was the one in this incident on the
Midway which is the one thats in the footage all the movies use:
http://www.midwaysailor.com/midwaymemorabilia2/51oct-001b.jpg
I remember a Repp survived a ramp strike as well, but i can't find any
references

[Mike Kanze]

Woody,

Proper hydration was highly emphasized during the VN war - and the point was
easily and quickly driven home on the searing flight decks off Yankee and
Dixie stations. Manned up and waiting your turn for the huffer, even with
the open cockpit, made one a believer.

During our first post-line period port call in Subic (April, when things
weren't REALLY hot yet) I went straight to the Navy Exchange and bought
several plastic baby bottles and caps (but not the nipples). Before each
launch I filled them with the offerings of the Ready Room scuttlebutt and
stuffed same in my g-suit pockets (held 6 - 3 each leg). I usually consumed
at least two between man-up and launch, plus another one or two during the
mission. This left me 2 - 3 available if I were forced à pied into scenic
North Vietnam.

Never found myself fumbling for the funnel either.

--
Mike Kanze

"When you're majoring in abnormal psychology, ALL television is
educational!"

- Frank & Ernest, 3/9/04


"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
...
> On 3/13/04 11:21 PM, in article
> , "Krztalizer"
> > wrote:
>
> > Piddle packs. My kid found two in a bottom drawer somewhere and held it
out
> > to
> > me, saying, "I don't want to know."
> >
> > Had a pilot **** in the canteen once - tried to hand it back to me to
dispose
> > of ("Are you nuts, sir?? Fling it out your own door!") but I don't
recall
> > using
> > one of those scanky-ass relief tubes (Is it plugged, or not? Care to
find
> > out?) or even piddle packs for that matter. Most of our missions were
less
> > than six hours and I had an 8-hour certification on my bladder so it was
never
> > much of an issue. On @#$%# P-3 flights, it was.
> >
> > v/r
> > Gordon
>
> Personally, I felt it very important to be hydrated... especially over bad
> guy country. It'd be a bad deal to get bagged and start out on the ground
> short of water. On a 6.5 to 8 hour mission, I had to learn how to use the
> piddle pack. Admittedly, it took some time to master. Always managed to
> throw 2 to 3 overboard after the trap.
>
> On the other hand, I fly with guys that can't make it through a 1.3 hour
hop
> without peeing at some point. Still can't figure that out.
>
> --Woody
>

[Helomech]

"Mike Kanze" > wrote in message
...
> I believe the pilot was George Duncan, USNA '39. George went on to
command
> RANGER during the early 1960s.
>
> --
> Mike Kanze


I still remember many of the "Sea stories" my Dad told me about his cruises
aboard the Ranger in the early to mid 60's - I remember him talking about
Capt Duncan.......... He said all the men thought he was on hell of a good
skipper - He took the Ranger out of SF Bay at about 25 knots once..... made
a hell of a bow wave and caused an uproar with the politicians of the bay
area. He also had an F-4 launched while the Ranger was just under the
golden gate bridge - A picture of it is in my Dad's cruisebook. One of
these days - I'll scan them in and post them to ABPA or ABPM.....

My Dad was a QM aboard the Ranger and Forrestal during the 60's, He was on
the Kittyhawk during the 70's.

Helomech

[Mike Kanze]

Helomech,

>I still remember many of the "Sea stories" my Dad told me about his cruises
aboard the Ranger in the early to mid 60's - I remember him talking about
Capt Duncan..........

Small World Story #649: My Dad was Air Boss on RANGER during much of George
Duncan's tenure as Skipper. (Dad detached in early 1963.) That's how I
learned of George's interesting encounter with the roundown.

As a kid I heard many of the same "great Skipper" stories from him . One
example: George was noted for the trust and confidence that he placed in
his juniors - certainly after determining that they were worthy of that
trust. He thus had no problem with letting one of his Department heads
(Dad) take the ship in / out of port as part of the "incapacitated / dead
Captain" portion of the ORI. Other COs (like George's immediate predecessor
on RANGER) would likely have **** O-6-sized bricks during this evolution.
Not George, according to Dad.

Hell, your Dad may have had the helm when my Dad had the conn.

--
Mike Kanze

"When you're majoring in abnormal psychology, ALL television is
educational!"

- Frank & Ernest, 3/9/04


"Helomech >" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mike Kanze" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I believe the pilot was George Duncan, USNA '39. George went on to
> command
> > RANGER during the early 1960s.
> >
> > --
> > Mike Kanze
>
>
> I still remember many of the "Sea stories" my Dad told me about his
cruises
> aboard the Ranger in the early to mid 60's - I remember him talking about
> Capt Duncan.......... He said all the men thought he was on hell of a
good
> skipper - He took the Ranger out of SF Bay at about 25 knots once.....
made
> a hell of a bow wave and caused an uproar with the politicians of the bay
> area. He also had an F-4 launched while the Ranger was just under the
> golden gate bridge - A picture of it is in my Dad's cruisebook. One of
> these days - I'll scan them in and post them to ABPA or ABPM.....
>
> My Dad was a QM aboard the Ranger and Forrestal during the 60's, He was
on
> the Kittyhawk during the 70's.
>
> Helomech
>
>
>

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 3/14/04 8:33 AM, in article ,
"Pechs1" > wrote:

> Juvat-<< I fly with a couple guys that wanted Hoovers or P-3s because they
> planned to move on to the airlines. >><BR><BR>
>
> Then they should have joined the USAF...I get peeved when a guy is already
> looking toward his next career, before he has really gotten into his
> first....BUT no airlines today!! Those weenies that rushed a trash hauler to
> get into the airlines, got stuck in P-3s...and then 9/11...and the jobs dry
> up.

I agree. I never joined up for the "airline training camp," but (1) the
jobs drying up were not a result of 9/11 and (2) timing is everything e.g.
folks that got hired in early 1999 are still flying at American but have
been furloughed by United.

--Woody

[Helomech]

"Mike Kanze" > wrote in message
...
> Helomech,
>
> >I still remember many of the "Sea stories" my Dad told me about his
cruises
> aboard the Ranger in the early to mid 60's - I remember him talking about
> Capt Duncan..........
>
> Small World Story #649: My Dad was Air Boss on RANGER during much of
George
> Duncan's tenure as Skipper. (Dad detached in early 1963.) That's how I
> learned of George's interesting encounter with the roundown.
>
> As a kid I heard many of the same "great Skipper" stories from him . One
> example: George was noted for the trust and confidence that he placed in
> his juniors - certainly after determining that they were worthy of that
> trust. He thus had no problem with letting one of his Department heads
> (Dad) take the ship in / out of port as part of the "incapacitated / dead
> Captain" portion of the ORI. Other COs (like George's immediate
predecessor
> on RANGER) would likely have **** O-6-sized bricks during this evolution.
> Not George, according to Dad.
>
> Hell, your Dad may have had the helm when my Dad had the conn.
>
> --
> Mike Kanze
>
> "When you're majoring in abnormal psychology, ALL television is
> educational!"
>
> - Frank & Ernest, 3/9/04
>

Yes it is a small world............. There "are now / and were" some great
people in the Navy, like Capt Duncan......and so many others.

Hearing stories about them and the awesome lives and exploits of their
careers, is exactly why I stay subscribed to this newsgroup.........

Thanks.......

Paul - (Helomech - AIR CAV)!

[Will Dossel]

(Krztalizer) wrote in message >...
> > Males totally rejected the idea, and last I heard, female Hornet pilots
> >weresomehow using piddle packs... although, I've never figured out
> >thehydromechanics of that evolution.Some things, I'm happy just not
> >knowing.--Woody
>
>
> Had a pilot **** in the canteen once - tried to hand it back to me to dispose
> of ("Are you nuts, sir?? Fling it out your own door!") but I don't recall using
> one of those scanky-ass relief tubes (Is it plugged, or not? Care to find
> out?)

-- In the E-2 'twas easy to do at altitude, just hold the switch down
and listen (pray) for the sound of rushing wind :) Had a guy in one
of the squadrons who had the urge *before* launch -- almost ended up
w/a down a/c 'cause the final checker initially couldn't figure out
what the fluid was and where it was coming from. 'course from that
day on the intrepid NFO was known as "Peeps". The classic though was
the copilot who poured the rest of his orange soda down the relief
tube and ended up painting the right side of the a/c under his window
orange. Us backenders have also been known to hold the door to CIC
shut to keep the front-enders out on their way back to take a dump in
the plastic bag in back. We sure didn't want to have to put up with
it for the next 5+ hours...

Oh, and for the distaff members, the COD ended up with a curtain for
privacy, I do believe ;)

Will Dossel
Last of the Steeljaws (VAW-122)