Trying for a Diamond Goal tommorow - water ballast question

[Scott Alexander[_2_]]

The forecast tommorow looks fantastic down here in Memphis! Looks
like perfect conditions to load up on water.

I have water bags in my Std. Cirrus that I have never used. Looking
at the wingroot, there is a hole that the bags are bolted to. These
bolts are easy to unscrew. This hole is appx. 1 and 3/4 inch
diameter. There is another hole about 3 inches in diameter that has a
clear plastic peice glued over it. My thought is that the water bags
are pushed into the wing through the smaller hole, then get pulled out
through the bigger hole. I don't want to just cut the clear plastic
peice off unless somebody can verify that it is indeed what the
plastic peice if for, or explain another way to test the bags for a
leak other than just pulling the bag completely out for a test.

My guess is that the clear plastic peice is for sealing. The cirrus
wasn't designed with bags, it was designed with fiberglass water
tanks. The water ballast bags are an aftermarket addition.

Thanks in advance,
Scott

Anyone have any experience?

[lanebush]

Scott,

XF still uses the original fiberglass bays to hold the water. I
filled them once in my yard and they seemed to hold the water well. I
am afraid you may have a "one off" system that someone engineered on
their on. Are you going to Cordele?

Lane

[Tony[_5_]]

On Apr 27, 4:09*pm, Scott Alexander >
wrote:
> The forecast tommorow looks fantastic down here in Memphis! *Looks
> like perfect conditions to load up on water.
>
> I have water bags in my Std. Cirrus that I have never used. * Looking
> at the wingroot, there is a hole that the bags are bolted to. *These
> bolts are easy to unscrew. *This hole is appx. 1 and 3/4 inch
> diameter. *There is another hole about 3 inches in diameter that has a
> clear plastic peice glued over it. *My thought is that the water bags
> are pushed into the wing through the smaller hole, then get pulled out
> through the bigger hole. *I don't want to just cut the clear plastic
> peice off unless somebody can verify that it is indeed what the
> plastic peice if for, or explain another way to test the bags for a
> leak other than just pulling the bag completely out for a test.
>
> My guess is that the clear plastic peice is for sealing. *The cirrus
> wasn't designed with bags, it was designed with fiberglass water
> tanks. *The water ballast bags are an aftermarket addition.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Scott
>
> Anyone have any experience?

No experience here with carrying water but I'd think that a Diamond
Goal flight wouldn't really be the time where I'd want to be learning
how to fly with ballast.

[T8]

On Apr 27, 5:09*pm, Scott Alexander >
wrote:
> The forecast tommorow looks fantastic down here in Memphis! *Looks
> like perfect conditions to load up on water.

Water for a badge flight? Maybe for a 750K diplome or better. But
you certainly don't need it for 300K. Kids these days :-)!

-T8

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Apr 27, 2:09*pm, Scott Alexander >
wrote:
> The forecast tommorow looks fantastic down here in Memphis! *Looks
> like perfect conditions to load up on water.
>
> I have water bags in my Std. Cirrus that I have never used... *

My advice is to forget about ballast and concentrate on preparing for
your flight. Leave the ballast for another day when you have time to
work through all the issues.

Figuring out how to get the water into the wings, validating that you
got the right amount in, validating that you can get it all out in a
reasonable time, making sure that there are no leaks in the system,
and getting used to the ballasted handling are things that can absorb
days and sometimes weeks of time.

It could be that you get lucky, that your bags fit properly, don't
take you over gross, don't leak, and that the dump plumbing works
properly and doesn't leak. And it might be that you quickly adapt to
the different handling and that it doesn't throw off your thermalling
and decision making. And it might be that your filling system works as
expected and you get all the air out of the bags and the right amount
of water in. I can see that all happening. But the odds are well under
100%, and any issues that arise will take up a bunch of time and
attention, and cause stress and worry that will distract you from what
you are really trying to accomplish.

Regardless of what you decide, good luck for a great flight!

Thanks, Bob K.

[T8]

On Apr 27, 5:36*pm, T8 > wrote:
> On Apr 27, 5:09*pm, Scott Alexander >
> wrote:
>
> > The forecast tommorow looks fantastic down here in Memphis! *Looks
> > like perfect conditions to load up on water.
>
> Water for a badge flight? *Maybe for a 750K diplome or better. *But
> you certainly don't need it for 300K. *Kids these days :-)!
>
> -T8

Further on that thought -- spend your time reading the rules instead
of dinking around with plumbing. You'll be glad you did.

-T8

[Andy[_1_]]

On Apr 27, 2:09*pm, Scott Alexander >
wrote:
> The forecast tommorow looks fantastic down here in Memphis! *Looks
> like perfect conditions to load up on water.
>
> My guess is that the clear plastic peice is for sealing. *The cirrus
> wasn't designed with bags, it was designed with fiberglass water
> tanks. *The water ballast bags are an aftermarket addition.

No experience with this particular installation but many years
expeience with bags. If both the holes you describe are in the part
of the root rib that closes the D tube then my guess is that the bags
are fed in the large hole and then the fill/dump tube is brought out
through the small hole. Explanation obviously wrong if the dump ports
are in the wings not the fuselage.

I doubt there are many ballast bag installations that remained exactly
as the factory intended. I consider adding piccolo pipes an almost
essential modification. No one who ever experienced a pinched off bag
failing to dump would ague with this.

Figuring this out and testing the system is probably not the best use
of the few hours you have before your flight attempt.

Andy

[Randy[_2_]]

I too would suggest that you do the flight without the
distractions of using your water ballast the for Diamond
Goal flight.
If the weather is going to be good enough for the flight,
you can do it without water. You will just fly a little
slower. I hope that you have a great flight!

Randy

Tulsa, OK

http://talihinasoaring.com/
http://www.standardcirrus.org/

[[email protected]]

On Apr 27, 5:09*pm, Scott Alexander >
wrote:
> The forecast tommorow looks fantastic down here in Memphis! *Looks
> like perfect conditions to load up on water.
>
> I have water bags in my Std. Cirrus that I have never used. * Looking
> at the wingroot, there is a hole that the bags are bolted to. *These
> bolts are easy to unscrew. *This hole is appx. 1 and 3/4 inch
> diameter. *There is another hole about 3 inches in diameter that has a
> clear plastic peice glued over it. *My thought is that the water bags
> are pushed into the wing through the smaller hole, then get pulled out
> through the bigger hole. *I don't want to just cut the clear plastic
> peice off unless somebody can verify that it is indeed what the
> plastic peice if for, or explain another way to test the bags for a
> leak other than just pulling the bag completely out for a test.
>
> My guess is that the clear plastic peice is for sealing. *The cirrus
> wasn't designed with bags, it was designed with fiberglass water
> tanks. *The water ballast bags are an aftermarket addition.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Scott
>
> Anyone have any experience?

Skip the water and pay attention to good climbs and following the
clouds.
You'll go faster,
UH

[lanebush]

Having only gotten close enough to see SA's rudder for five days in
Perry last week I can say that if Scott wants to fly with water he
should. His skills are such that adapting to a little extra weight
while flying a task will not "task saturate" him.

XF

[Larry Goddard]

Ditto what others have said... Dinking around with water is a surefire
way to waste a boatload of time.

Concentrate on prep and other flying stuff... You'll be glad you did.

Larry "zero one"


"Scott Alexander" > wrote in message
:

> The forecast tommorow looks fantastic down here in Memphis! Looks
> like perfect conditions to load up on water.
>
> I have water bags in my Std. Cirrus that I have never used. Looking
> at the wingroot, there is a hole that the bags are bolted to. These
> bolts are easy to unscrew. This hole is appx. 1 and 3/4 inch
> diameter. There is another hole about 3 inches in diameter that has a
> clear plastic peice glued over it. My thought is that the water bags
> are pushed into the wing through the smaller hole, then get pulled out
> through the bigger hole. I don't want to just cut the clear plastic
> peice off unless somebody can verify that it is indeed what the
> plastic peice if for, or explain another way to test the bags for a
> leak other than just pulling the bag completely out for a test.
>
> My guess is that the clear plastic peice is for sealing. The cirrus
> wasn't designed with bags, it was designed with fiberglass water
> tanks. The water ballast bags are an aftermarket addition.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Scott
>
> Anyone have any experience?

[Grider Pirate]

On Apr 27, 3:05*pm, lanebush > wrote:
> Having only gotten close enough to see SA's rudder for five days in
> Perry last week I can say that if Scott wants to fly with water he
> should. *His skills are such that adapting to a little extra weight
> while flying a task will not "task saturate" him.
>
> XF

If everything's connected and checked out, I would load up. However,
the day before making an attempt seems a bit late in the game to start
checking out the system. As far as the flying wet goes, my only
experience is with my Speed Astir II, and it really 'grooves' fully
ballasted. I wish it flew the same empty. (perhaps the extra inertia
in the wings compensates for my natural hamfistedness!)

[Tony[_5_]]

scott do you have a spot tracker? would be fun to follow your
progress tomorrow! have a good flight.

[Larry Goddard]

It's not the 'saturation' during the flight... Most sailplanes fly very
nicely with water...

It all the stuff that you have to mess with before the flight that is
the problem... Right when you should be relaxing and getting ready
mentally for the big flight.

Zero One



"lanebush" > wrote in message
:

> Having only gotten close enough to see SA's rudder for five days in
> Perry last week I can say that if Scott wants to fly with water he
> should. His skills are such that adapting to a little extra weight
> while flying a task will not "task saturate" him.
>
> XF

[Scott Alexander[_2_]]

Good points. Thanks for the advice. No water tommorow. I'll let ya
know how it went.

Lane:

I'm signed up to do Cherry Valley, AR Region 10 north next month. You
should bid another long layover in MEM and come hang out with us
then!

Regarding Cordele: On contest day 5, I will be in the hospital
delivery with my wife Susan welcoming our 2nd child into this world.

I will be checking the daily scores and reports when I get a chance.
Have fun and go for first place!

[Tim Taylor]

On Apr 27, 8:21*pm, Scott Alexander >
wrote:
> Good points. *Thanks for the advice. *No water tommorow. *I'll let ya
> know how it went.
>
> Lane:
>
> I'm signed up to do Cherry Valley, AR Region 10 north next month. *You
> should bid another long layover in MEM and come hang out with us
> then!
>
> Regarding Cordele: On contest day 5, I will be in the hospital
> delivery with my wife Susan welcoming our 2nd child into this world.
>
> I will be checking the daily scores and reports when I get a chance.
> Have fun and go for first place!

Scott,

Up to this point you had us fooled that you were a racing pilot.
Skipping a contest just because your wife is having a baby shows you
aren't serious about racing ;-).

Good luck tomorrow.

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:28:12 -0700, Tony wrote:
>
> No experience here with carrying water but I'd think that a Diamond Goal
> flight wouldn't really be the time where I'd want to be learning how to
> fly with ballast.
>
I must say I'd agree with that, if only because under reasonable
conditions you'll only be on task around 5 hours flying dry. If the day
is as good as you think you don't need to go faster: 5 hours for 300 km
is 59 kph, 32 kts average speed.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[MickiMinner]

>
> Up to this point you had us fooled that you were a racing pilot.
> Skipping a contest just because your wife is having a baby shows you
> aren't serious about racing ;-).
>
> Good luck tomorrow.

Well, Scott is young and just beginning...he will remember that a true
racing pilot will plan better in the future...delivery dates planned
before or After the racing season! <grinning, because Scott and Susan
will make the region 10 North!>

[glider[_2_]]

> > Up to this point you had us fooled that you were a racing pilot.
> > Skipping a contest just because your wife is having a baby shows you
> > aren't serious about racing ;-).
>
> > It is always good to take some quality time out to create some additional crew members.
It can be almost as much fun though it can be a bit more
expensive.
GA

[Tony[_5_]]

so now im wondering how the flight went

[Dave Nadler]

On Apr 28, 5:27*pm, Tony > wrote:
> so now im wondering how the flight went

He's still being retrieved ;-)

[rlovinggood]

On Apr 28, 9:52*pm, Dave Nadler > wrote:
> On Apr 28, 5:27*pm, Tony > wrote:
>
> > so now im wondering how the flight went
>
> He's still being retrieved ;-)

Looks like he made it.

http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=1199850

Nice flight, SA!!!


Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

[Randy[_2_]]

Congratulations on your Diamond Goal flight!

Randy

tulsa, ok
http://talihinasoaring.com/

[Tony[_5_]]

awesome! congrats!

[Scott Alexander[_2_]]

On Apr 28, 9:41*pm, Tony > wrote:
> awesome! congrats!

Soooo,

Bada Bing!!! I made it! First 300K FAI Diamond Goal. (And a new TN
state record) Perfect day to go soaring. Cloudbase of 6500 feet.
4-5 knot thermals early, then 2-3 knot thermals later. Honest cumulus
clouds. Rounding the first turnpoint I could see the northwest corner
of Alabama, then rounding the second turnpoint I could see the
southeast corner of Missouri. Visibility was unlimited. I did get
caught up in some overdevelopment between mile marker 100K and 150K.
Had to take it slow through that area, conserving my altitude. Never
got low, thank goodness. Once I did get through the 80% overcast
area, Lunch time - two pbj's, an apple and an entire bag of sunflower
seeds. Easy sailing after the halfway mark.

All declarations valid, looks like a good igc log.


Man this little cirrus has got some legs! Now the next challenge is
to test the water bags on a non flying day. Can't wait to try water.
Thanks for your suggestions everyone.

SA

[[email protected]]

On Apr 28, 11:40*pm, Scott Alexander >
wrote:
> On Apr 28, 9:41*pm, Tony > wrote:
>
> > awesome! congrats!
>
> Soooo,
>
> Bada Bing!!! *I made it! *First 300K FAI Diamond Goal. *(And a new TN
> state record) *Perfect day to go soaring. *Cloudbase of 6500 feet.
> 4-5 knot thermals early, then 2-3 knot thermals later. *Honest cumulus
> clouds. *Rounding the first turnpoint I could see the northwest corner
> of Alabama, then rounding the second turnpoint I could see the
> southeast corner of Missouri. *Visibility was unlimited. *I did get
> caught up in some overdevelopment between mile marker 100K and 150K.
> Had to take it slow through that area, conserving my altitude. *Never
> got low, thank goodness. *Once I did get through the 80% overcast
> area, Lunch time - two pbj's, an apple and an entire bag of sunflower
> seeds. *Easy sailing after the halfway mark.
>
> All declarations valid, looks like a good igc log.
>
> Man this little cirrus has got some legs! *Now the next challenge is
> to test the water bags on a non flying day. *Can't wait to try water.
> Thanks for your suggestions everyone.
>
> SA

Guess a weeks training/practice at Perry paid off.
Nice Job!
Careful that the grin doesn't break the canopy
UH

[T8]

On Apr 29, 8:30*am, wrote:
> On Apr 28, 11:40*pm, Scott Alexander >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 28, 9:41*pm, Tony > wrote:
>
> > > awesome! congrats!
>
> > Soooo,
>
> > Bada Bing!!! *I made it! *First 300K FAI Diamond Goal. *(And a new TN
> > state record) *Perfect day to go soaring. *Cloudbase of 6500 feet.
> > 4-5 knot thermals early, then 2-3 knot thermals later. *Honest cumulus
> > clouds. *Rounding the first turnpoint I could see the northwest corner
> > of Alabama, then rounding the second turnpoint I could see the
> > southeast corner of Missouri. *Visibility was unlimited. *I did get
> > caught up in some overdevelopment between mile marker 100K and 150K.
> > Had to take it slow through that area, conserving my altitude. *Never
> > got low, thank goodness. *Once I did get through the 80% overcast
> > area, Lunch time - two pbj's, an apple and an entire bag of sunflower
> > seeds. *Easy sailing after the halfway mark.
>
> > All declarations valid, looks like a good igc log.
>
> > Man this little cirrus has got some legs! *Now the next challenge is
> > to test the water bags on a non flying day. *Can't wait to try water.
> > Thanks for your suggestions everyone.
>
> > SA
>
> Guess a weeks training/practice at Perry paid off.
> Nice Job!
> Careful that the grin doesn't break the canopy
> UH

Very classy, choosing an FAI triangle.

-T8

[MickiMinner]

>
> All declarations valid, looks like a good igc log.
>
> Man this little cirrus has got some legs! *Now the next challenge is
> to test the water bags on a non flying day. *Can't wait to try water.
> Thanks for your suggestions everyone.
>
> SA

Scott, you are a NATURAL...we have to keep you in the air as much as
possible. Congratulations.