??VF-162-1967 VN combat cruise

[Pechs1]

Reading 'Over the Beach',

Questions-

-How many pilots did they deploy with? They had a det in Cubi and 10 jets...

-Seems like a pretty unhappy group. Dept heads that were either labeled as
effeminate or cowards, JOs that got short and yelled at the CO, a JO that
turned his wings in cuz he didn't agree with the war, A CO that wasn't very
well liked, a former CO that was committed to a looney bin...

I know it was over a long period of time and also during combat, which can
bring out the best and worse of people but it seems like a not very cohesive
group...

Anybody have an insight? Masher??
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Red Rider]

"Pechs1" > wrote in message
...
> Reading 'Over the Beach',
>
> Questions-
>
> -How many pilots did they deploy with? They had a det in Cubi and 10
jets...
>
> -Seems like a pretty unhappy group. Dept heads that were either labeled as
> effeminate or cowards, JOs that got short and yelled at the CO, a JO that
> turned his wings in cuz he didn't agree with the war, A CO that wasn't
very
> well liked, a former CO that was committed to a looney bin...
>
> I know it was over a long period of time and also during combat, which can
> bring out the best and worse of people but it seems like a not very
cohesive
> group...
>
> Anybody have an insight? Masher??
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
Phlyer

I guess I had met and knew all of them, before they made their first cruise
on the big "O". They were a good group of very skilled fighter pilots. Real
good, I had flown with many of them in the early 60's and flew a lot of
hours against all of them during their pre-deployment work-up.

Belly "B" (the former CO) was a wild man, but one of the best sticks I ever
flew with. Even in the early '60's he was considered "old School", a throw
back to the old days. His way wasn't the way to get ahead in the Navy. He
was a leader, not a manage, had few social graces, was probably an
alcoholic, and was definitely out of place in the peacetime Navy. But while
I was around him he was able to maintain control of himself. (I understand
that later on this was not always the case). I learned a whole lot, (good
and bad) from him in a very short time, during my nugget days. There wasn't
a lot of time to learn anything during the Cuban Missile Crisis, but Belly
and a couple of others taught me enough, so that I might have had a chance
if we had gone up against Cuban MiG-21's. ACM was the way of life in F-8' s
in those days. I guess if I admitted it Belly was the one that taught me the
correct way to make a vertical pass on a bomber. (A.K.A. thumping).

Most VF (F-8) squadrons at that time, deployed to SE Asia with 19 pilots.
They usually had a few aircraft at Cubi, in maintenance, with one pilot
(MaintO or one of the AsstMaintO). While on station, who ever needed or
earned a brake would ferry an aircraft back to cubi, spend a few days and
fly the replacement back. Plus the fighter squadrons had its choice of the
other aviators on the Wing staff, Carrier Group staff and ships company.
That meant that there were probably 23 or 24 total that flew with regularly.
(Although staff and ships company usually got stuck with fleet BARCAP or the
less desirable missions such as checking out the sampans).

I would say on their first deployment there were predominately two types in
the squadron. One were the guys that all they wanted to do was fly and
nothing else. The other were the ones that had careers. (This is not to say
that some of the ones with careers weren't warriors, some were). On the
first cruise they were tight, later on I understand the two groups split
almost into open warfare. I can't really say anything first hand, as I was
flying RF-8's then and only spoke to them in passing so to say. But they
didn't call the Wing "Bloody 16" for no reason at all. They were all under a
lot of stress, and it wasn't due to bad luck, but they had a lot of losses.
They went through some sh*t. I don't remember the numbers, but just about
every aircraft on the ship had been replaced once, and many had been
replaced two or three times. They had the highest losses of anyone in
Vietnam. IIRC VF-162 went through 15 aircraft, and brought back none of the
original ones, I believe they deployed with 14. The A-4 loses were even
higher, and I believe one squadron had 24 or 25 aircraft lost.

The accounts I got from friends about wings being turned in, was that it
definitely wasn't because he was scared or a coward. This was not the case
of several others (none in VF-162) that managed to leave the Navy, "because
they owed it to their families, to have a career with the airlines".

Of course this is all my opinion, and my reputation was such that I never
had to worry about getting a flag, (unless it was on my coffin) even if I
had been able to stay in the Navy.
--
Red

[Pechs1]

Red-<< Of course this is all my opinion, and my reputation was such that I
never
had to worry about getting a flag, (unless it was on my coffin) even if I
had been able to stay in the Navy. >><BR><BR>

Thanks, exactly what I was looking for. I missed being in combat in every
squadron I was in. Wings in 1974, second CV 'there' for the Mayaguez(sp?),
Acciile Lauro(sp/ again), 'second' CV for Libya and Lebanon strikes. Trained to
'kill people and break things' but my year group was unique in that most saw no
combat(YG 73). Didn't want to get killed or I didn't lust after combat but I
would have liked to experience it, at least once.

I saw a sliver of it when I was a middie, onboard Kitty hawk in summer of
1972, Yankee station, sort of attached to VA-52. Flew a couple of tanker
missions over the North, until CO of the CVA found out and stopped it. I could
feel the tension among the A-6 guys. One Mid 'almost' flew a backseat barcap
mssion in a F-4 with VF-114..almost.

Saw/felt it again when in Cubi, when Midway, Hancock were both there...O club
was amazing.....
Almost got my lights punched out when a A-6 guy told me to go over to some guy
at the bar and say' F-8 pilots eat flowers'. Of course he was a F-8 pilot.


P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Elmshoot]

Red,
Great post!
Having a taste of flying in hostile air in DS I think the feelings must be the
same across time. Combat was a defining point in my life. very glad I did it
but not something I want to do again. I didn't quite understand the quote below
are you saying they left for the political disagreements with the US policy in
SEA or to save their skin.?

>The accounts I got from friends about wings being turned in, was that it
>definitely wasn't because he was scared or a coward. This was not the case
>of several others (none in VF-162) that managed to leave the Navy, "because
>they owed it to their families, to have a career with the airlines".

I was told that one CO from another squadron on another boat stood up on the
eve of DS and said that he was destined to lead men into combat! I would have
slugged him if I had been there. Knowing the guy I can belive he said it.

Sparky

[T Bird]

I made a cruise On Yorktown CV-10 . Late 64 and up till june 65 . A
cruise was still 9 months then . I believe we had 5 Skyhawks on board .
Most of the Nam cost time was S2 F,s doing surveillance flights along
the coast . But our Sky Hawks flew missions into Nam . Left with
ordanance and came home empty . I was a bridge watch stander , Helmsman
So I had a good view of the Flt Deck . So , Am I right , We had
carrier ops as early as , Early 65 ?? Or Earlier ???

[Red Rider]

Two were definitely doing it to save their skins. Their secret came out when
one showed up in the Navy reserves as a Squadron XO (??????) and the other a
couple of years after that in the Air National Guard that was doing their
active duty on a joint base. Another one was questionable, but everyone
liked him so I guess he got the benefit of doubt. Also there were several in
the attack community that I heard about but don't have first hand knowledge
of.

--
Red



"Elmshoot" > wrote in message
...
> Red,
> Great post!
> Having a taste of flying in hostile air in DS I think the feelings must be
the
> same across time. Combat was a defining point in my life. very glad I did
it
> but not something I want to do again. I didn't quite understand the quote
below
> are you saying they left for the political disagreements with the US
policy in
> SEA or to save their skin.?
>
> >The accounts I got from friends about wings being turned in, was that it
> >definitely wasn't because he was scared or a coward. This was not the
case
> >of several others (none in VF-162) that managed to leave the Navy,
"because
> >they owed it to their families, to have a career with the airlines".
>
> I was told that one CO from another squadron on another boat stood up on
the
> eve of DS and said that he was destined to lead men into combat! I would
have
> slugged him if I had been there. Knowing the guy I can belive he said it.
>
> Sparky
>

[Red Rider]

"T Bird" > wrote in message
...
> I made a cruise On Yorktown CV-10 . Late 64 and up till june 65 . A
> cruise was still 9 months then . I believe we had 5 Skyhawks on board .
> Most of the Nam cost time was S2 F,s doing surveillance flights along
> the coast . But our Sky Hawks flew missions into Nam . Left with
> ordanance and came home empty . I was a bridge watch stander , Helmsman
> So I had a good view of the Flt Deck . So , Am I right , We had
> carrier ops as early as , Early 65 ?? Or Earlier ???
>

I don't know if the dates are that big a secret anymore or not. Probably not
as every reporter knew about it anyway, but we started flying recon "Yankee
Team"(May 64) with RF-8's and Air Force RF-101's into Laos, which was three
months before the Tonkin Gulf Incident (Aug 64). After a couple of RF-8's
received ground fire, flew into mountains, and other things, they started
having a F-8 fly escort for them, but that was just so they knew why the
RF-8 didn't come back. The first RF-8 was lost on 6 June 1964, easy day to
remember as it was the anniversary of "D-Day". I am having a senior moment
and I can't recall the pilots name. He was captured and escaped from the
Pathat (sp?) Lao, and later rescued. I believe he and Diter Dingler an A-1
pilot were the only two Naval Aviators to escape and be rescued during the
whole SE Asia War Game. At that time it wasn't very likely they were going
to recover any pilots from Laos. Good SAR in that area had to wait for the
Air Force to put bases in Thailand and secret forward SAR bases in Cambodia
and Laos.

The route was through the northern part of South Vietnam, the north into
Laos (Plain of Jars mainly), and return the same way. A big "L" or sometimes
a big "U". Due to the fuel situations etc., more than one mission cut the
corners and returned to the boat via North Vietnam, but officially it was
never noticed, and I don't remember Ho Chi Mien saying anything about it
either, but he had to know. After Aug 64 flight plans were straight over
North Vietnam, and a month or so later air strikes were started into Laos.
Then things got serious!

[Red Rider]

"Pechs1" > wrote in message
...
> Red-<< Of course this is all my opinion, and my reputation was such that I
> never
> had to worry about getting a flag, (unless it was on my coffin) even if I
> had been able to stay in the Navy. >><BR><BR>
>
> Thanks, exactly what I was looking for. I missed being in combat in every
> squadron I was in. Wings in 1974, second CV 'there' for the Mayaguez(sp?),
> Acciile Lauro(sp/ again), 'second' CV for Libya and Lebanon strikes.
Trained to
> 'kill people and break things' but my year group was unique in that most
saw no
> combat(YG 73). Didn't want to get killed or I didn't lust after combat but
I
> would have liked to experience it, at least once.
>
> I saw a sliver of it when I was a middie, onboard Kitty hawk in summer of
> 1972, Yankee station, sort of attached to VA-52. Flew a couple of tanker
> missions over the North, until CO of the CVA found out and stopped it. I
could
> feel the tension among the A-6 guys. One Mid 'almost' flew a backseat
barcap
> mssion in a F-4 with VF-114..almost.
>
> Saw/felt it again when in Cubi, when Midway, Hancock were both there...O
club
> was amazing.....
> Almost got my lights punched out when a A-6 guy told me to go over to some
guy
> at the bar and say' F-8 pilots eat flowers'. Of course he was a F-8 pilot.
>
>
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
Phlyer

Yeah I remember you youngsters on your 72 summer cruise. We were just
getting back to WestPAC with new Aircraft, to replace our old worn out
birds, when they were kicking you off the ships. Also the first EA-6B's were
arriving too. By the way didn't you know never to trust an attack pilot.
--
Red

[Guy Alcala]

Red Rider wrote:

<snip>

> I don't know if the dates are that big a secret anymore or not. Probably not
> as every reporter knew about it anyway, but we started flying recon "Yankee
> Team"(May 64) with RF-8's and Air Force RF-101's into Laos, which was three
> months before the Tonkin Gulf Incident (Aug 64). After a couple of RF-8's
> received ground fire, flew into mountains, and other things, they started
> having a F-8 fly escort for them, but that was just so they knew why the
> RF-8 didn't come back. The first RF-8 was lost on 6 June 1964, easy day to
> remember as it was the anniversary of "D-Day". I am having a senior moment
> and I can't recall the pilots name.

Chuck Klusmann.

<snip>

Guy

[sid]

"Red Rider" > wrote in message >...
> Two were definitely doing it to save their skins. Their secret came out when
> one showed up in the Navy reserves as a Squadron XO (??????) and the other a
> couple of years after that in the Air National Guard that was doing their
> active duty on a joint base. Another one was questionable, but everyone
> liked him so I guess he got the benefit of doubt. Also there were several in
> the attack community that I heard about but don't have first hand knowledge
> of.
>
> --
> Red
>

I listened disgust to an A-4 driver (Cdr.) in Newport in the summer of
'67 talk about how he was NOT going to make a WestPac and get his ass
shot off. He didn't and later was a CO and CAG while deploying
exclusively to the MED. This jackass eventually made Rear
Admiral...Name started with an S

[sid]

Guy Alcala > wrote in message >...
> Red Rider wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > I don't know if the dates are that big a secret anymore or not. Probably not
> > as every reporter knew about it anyway, but we started flying recon "Yankee
> > Team"(May 64) with RF-8's and Air Force RF-101's into Laos, which was three
> > months before the Tonkin Gulf Incident (Aug 64). After a couple of RF-8's
> > received ground fire, flew into mountains, and other things, they started
> > having a F-8 fly escort for them, but that was just so they knew why the
> > RF-8 didn't come back. The first RF-8 was lost on 6 June 1964, easy day to
> > remember as it was the anniversary of "D-Day". I am having a senior moment
> > and I can't recall the pilots name.
>
> Chuck Klusmann.
>
Klusman made a sucessful escape as well after 3 months in Pathet Lao
captivity.
The next day another Kitty Hawk Crusader was lost in Laos. This time
it was an F-8D flown by VF-111 CO Cdr Doyle escorting on one of the
two Yankee Team missions that day. He was rescued but was KIA the next
year.

[sid]

Klusman made a sucessful escape as well after 3 months in Pathet Lao
captivity.
The next day another Kitty Hawk Crusader was lost in Laos. This time
it was an F-8D flown by VF-111 CO Cdr Doyle escorting on one of the
two Yankee Team missions that day. He was rescued but was KIA the next
year.

...Correction to my last. Doyle was his first name. Last name was Lynn

[Red Rider]

"sid" > wrote in message
om...
> "Red Rider" > wrote in message
>...
> > Two were definitely doing it to save their skins. Their secret came out
when
> > one showed up in the Navy reserves as a Squadron XO (??????) and the
other a
> > couple of years after that in the Air National Guard that was doing
their
> > active duty on a joint base. Another one was questionable, but everyone
> > liked him so I guess he got the benefit of doubt. Also there were
several in
> > the attack community that I heard about but don't have first hand
knowledge
> > of.
> >
> > --
> > Red
> >
>
> I listened disgust to an A-4 driver (Cdr.) in Newport in the summer of
> '67 talk about how he was NOT going to make a WestPac and get his ass
> shot off. He didn't and later was a CO and CAG while deploying
> exclusively to the MED. This jackass eventually made Rear
> Admiral...Name started with an S

Yep, that's a fact. But he shouldn't be confused with some that didn't make
the WastPac tour. There were a few that didn't try to avoid WestPac and were
never sent there. (I know of one that had special knowledge of classified
material that was never deployed outside of CONUS in his last 17 years of
service). But other than that, in my humble experience, if someone
volunteered, you better have your bags packed.

One guy made a statement one evening at Happy Hour, how he would like to go
over there and show them how to do things. He claimed that one week later he
had orders. He said he didn't know his new detailer was listening.

--
Red

[Mike Weeks]

The approach used by Zalin Grant in writing "Over the Beach" can be read w/
Robert Wilcox's "Black Aces High" 2002 book -- the story of VF-41 using their
aged F-14As as bombers during the brief 1999 NATO war w/ Serbia.

The method used by both authors have pluses and minuses in telling a story as
it relates to post-WWII CV NavAir, but clearly both are worth reading.

Anyone who has read "Black Aces High", and know any of the VF-41 participants,
care to comment on the job Wilcox did in representing what the squadron went
thru?

MW

[Jim McCartan]

"> Yeah I remember you youngsters on your 72 summer cruise. We were just
> getting back to WestPAC with new Aircraft, to replace our old worn out
> birds, when they were kicking you off the ships. Also the first EA-6B's were
> arriving too. By the way didn't you know never to trust an attack pilot.

Red,

What Carrier were you on in '72?

I was on America with VF-74 as an ECM tech.

Pechs,

I had friends on the Kitty. Even visited a few times wile in Subic.

Jim

[Pechs1]

Red-<< By the way didn't you know never to trust an attack pilot. >><BR><BR>

Learned that........
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Paul Michael Brown]

Red Rider > wrote as follows regarding the officers of
VF-162 portrayed in Zalin Grant's book "Over the Beach":

> I guess I had met and knew all of them, before they made their first cruise
> on the big "O". They were a good group of very skilled fighter pilots. Real
> good, I had flown with many of them in the early 60's and flew a lot of
> hours against all of them during their pre-deployment work-up.

[Remainder of superb post deleted to conserve bandwidth.]

Occasionally I get fed up with the cross-posted bilge, the racist nonsense
and the endless posts about the Liberty and I stop reading this newsgroup
for a time. But then somebody like Red comes along and posts something
that's so amazingly interesting that I wonder why I ever left. A big Bravo
Zulu for him, and for everybody else who has contributed to this thread.

[montgomery_scott]

Accchhhh! m'wee bairns...I'll give y'warp factor eight and maybe a wee
bit more...

Mike Weeks... step forward laddie... have y'tried bull****ting the
people on this thread by pretending t'be a "jet fighter pilot" like
Kevin Brooks caught you bull****ting aboot the same thing... tsk!
tsk!.. m'wee bairn...the "self esteem" problems that cause you to go
swaggering aboot like a "jet jock"...



MIKE WEEKS, USS LIBERTY USS LIBERTY MURDERS ISRAEL AHRON JAY CRISTOL
A. JAY CRISTOL GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL GOI IDF THE LIBERTY INCIDENT
ASSAULT ON THE LIBERTY JIM ENNES JAMES ENNES JAMES A. ENNES JOE
MEADORS WAR CRIME stan engel shipfixr dn roberta hatch sheldon
lieberman little_people Ward Boston Admiral Thomas Moorer Robert
McNamara LBJ 30mm with proximity fusing 30mm cannon with
proximity fusing 30mm cannon shell with proximity fusing


>kevin brooks said this:
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl70123069d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=1e6ea40d.0310150943.6c7fc8e4%40posting.google .com
>
> "No idea, but a good point. Heck, I am still waiting for ol' Mikey to
> tell me of his vast experience in dealing with "arrogant jet jockeys",
> since he made such a big deal of it. Odd how he gets rather quiet when
> called upon his own "qualifications"."
>
> Bwaaaaahaaa! LOL!!! ROTFLMAO!!!
>
> C'mon mikey... tell an old scot your qualifications, laddie!

Acccch!!! M'wee bairns… I'll give y'warp factor eight and maybe a wee
bit more…

The following message has been designed to prevent Mike Weeks from
engaging in conduct on this thread THAT HE has engaged in on the
threads where the USS Liberty survivors gather….

….and to follow Zionist Mike Weeks, who got caught by Kevin Brooks
pretending on the Google Groups pretending to be a US Naval "jet
fighter pilot"...

…just like Week's good buddy, A. Jay Cristol(Ahron Jay Cristol),
author of "The Liberty Incident" has BEEN CAUGHT pretending to be a
"jet fighter pilot" who "flew combat missions in the Far East" during
the Korean War and who served as an officer in US Naval Intelligence
when in reality…

…Mike Weeks is IN ACTUALITY … a US Naval reservist…and "no";he's not
the "jet fighter pilot" he got caught pretending to be ….. he is
"computer operator" AND…

"the Korean War… snicker…heroooo",A. Jay Cristol never came within
thousands of miles of any combat… and he graduated from "flight
training school" only 90 days before the Korean War ended before he
sat his fat little rump down in the cockpit seat …not of his
...snicker… "jet fighter"… but instead a "Turkey Prop".. the US Navy's
slowest plane… and "no"… he never served in US Naval Intelligence
unless perhaps it was in the kitchen of the mess halls peeling
potatoes as punishment for bull****ting about his "war record"




Mike Weeks, who ALONG WITH HIS BUDDY, A. Jay Cristol, is actively
involved in helping the Government of Israel cover up the murder of 34
of his fellow countrymen…

In the following messages on this thread, you'll be able to determine
for yourself to just what extent, if any, Mike Weeks is a traitor to
both his country and fellow computer oper… er.. fellow servicemen in
the US Military
…

…but first to give you a snapshot of just what kind of individual it
is who ends up betraying his fellow Americans…. We'll repeat the "self
esteem" problems Mike Weeks has which cause him to pretend to be a
"jet fighter pilot" as Wing Commander of "The Data Entry Squadron"…


Hey, Mikey…. M'wee bairn… point oot t'the ladies the hyperlink Kevin
Brooks is talking aboot where he caught you bull****ting aboot being a
"jet fighter pilot"…

>kevin brooks said this:
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl70123069d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=1e6ea40d.0310150943.6c7fc8e4%40posting.google .com
>
> "No idea, but a good point. Heck, I am still waiting for ol' Mikey to
> tell me of his vast experience in dealing with "arrogant jet jockeys",
> since he made such a big deal of it. Odd how he gets rather quiet >when
> called upon his own "qualifications"."



>Odd how he gets rather quiet when
> called upon his own "qualifications".


>Odd how he gets rather quiet when
> called upon his own "qualifications".


>Heck, I am still waiting for ol' Mikey to
> tell me of his vast experience in dealing with "arrogant jet >jockeys",
> since he made such a big deal of it.
>> since he made such a big deal of it.
> since he made such a big deal of it.



>Odd how he gets rather quiet when
> called upon his own "qualifications".


> since he made such a big deal of it.








(Mike Weeks) wrote in message >...
> The approach used by Zalin Grant in writing "Over the Beach" can be read w/
> Robert Wilcox's "Black Aces High" 2002 book -- the story of VF-41 using their
> aged F-14As as bombers during the brief 1999 NATO war w/ Serbia.
>
> The method used by both authors have pluses and minuses in telling a story as
> it relates to post-WWII CV NavAir, but clearly both are worth reading.
>
> Anyone who has read "Black Aces High", and know any of the VF-41 participants,
> care to comment on the job Wilcox did in representing what the squadron went
> thru?
>
> MW

[Jim Morris]

Rookies all.
1963-1984
Was there
Have T shirt
to prove it.
P3's in Thailand
in 1964.
Black Birds in
66-72.
USN Ret

[John S. Shinal]

"Red Rider" wrote:

Fascinating stuff, RR, thanks.

>The accounts I got from friends about wings being turned in, was that it
>definitely wasn't because he was scared or a coward. This was not the case
>of several others (none in VF-162) that managed to leave the Navy, "because
>they owed it to their families, to have a career with the airlines".


Actually Grant is scrupulously clear about this in the book.
The officer who turned in his wings had a record of bravery under fire
on some nasty missions. The CO recognised that in fact, and his
resignation was specifically on religious CO status, if I recall the
book correctly. Even so, apparently quite a ruckus.