VF Question

[WaltBJ]

What's the number of the VF squadron with the rising sun as a logo?
Are they the Sundowners? 4 of their F4s were on a loran drop with me
and my flight in 72 near Khe San in March of 72.
Walt BJ

[Mike Weeks]

>From: (WaltBJ)
>Date: 4/13/2004 12:00 Pacific Daylight Time

>What's the number of the VF squadron with the rising sun as a logo?

That would be VF-111 - axed in 1995 when CVW-15 was disestablished.

>Are they the Sundowners?

yes

>4 of their F4s were on a loran drop with me
>and my flight in 72 near Khe San in March of 72.

That was during the squadron's Nov. 71 - Jul. 72 deployment aboard Coral Sea.

MW

[stephen.mudgett]

VF-111, Sundowners, you are correct, sir.
Stephen
http://www.stephenmudgett.com

WaltBJ wrote:

>What's the number of the VF squadron with the rising sun as a logo?
>Are they the Sundowners? 4 of their F4s were on a loran drop with me
>and my flight in 72 near Khe San in March of 72.
>Walt BJ
>
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"WaltBJ" > wrote in message
om...
>
> What's the number of the VF squadron with the rising sun as a logo?
> Are they the Sundowners?
>

That wouldn't make any sense at all.

[John R Weiss]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote...
>
>> What's the number of the VF squadron with the rising sun as a logo?
>> Are they the Sundowners?
>
> That wouldn't make any sense at all.

Your point? They ARE fighter pilots...

[Rich]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message et>...
> "WaltBJ" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > What's the number of the VF squadron with the rising sun as a logo?
> > Are they the Sundowners?
> >
>
> That wouldn't make any sense at all.

The last iteration of VF-111 in 1959 adopted the insignia of the first
VF-111 whose lineage went back to VF-11, established on 1 August 1942.
The VF-11 Squadron insignia was a sun setting into the ocean being
shot down by two diving F4F's. This insignia was the official
squadron insignia for VF-11 and its successors, including both
VF-111's. The business with the "rising sun" was the marking
sometimes painted on the vertical stabilizer of some of the squadron's
later jets, F4's, F-14's and so on. Rather gaudy, but not the
official insignia. Kind of dates to the days when some thought some
of our friends on the far side of the pond might take some offense at
the implication of a sun being shot down. The name Sun Downers (note
two words, not one) had that obvious implication and also referred to,
from the days of a sailing navy, a Sun Downer which was a sailor or,
in plural, a crew that was hard working and worked until the sun set
rather than until the sun crossed the yardarm. My father was a pilot
in the original VF-11 and did the design work on the original
insignia.

The VF-11 was redesignated VF-11A on 15 November 1946 and as VF-111 on
15 July 1948. This VF-111 was disestablished on 19 January 1959.

The second VF-111 was established as VA-156 on 4 June 1956. It was
redesignated VF-111 on 20 Jan 1959. The new VF-111 adopted the
insignia of the old VF-111. The squadron was redesignated VF-26 on 1
September 1964 and then redesignated back to VF-111 on 17 September
1964. VF-111 was disestablished on 31 March 1995.

Regards,

Rich

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"John R Weiss" > wrote in message
news:OX0fc.136187$JO3.84364@attbi_s04...
>
> Your point? They ARE fighter pilots...
>

So because they ARE fighter pilots they chose a rising sun to represent the
Sundowners? Are you saying fighter pilots are stupid?

[Mike Kanze]

Stephen,

>That wouldn't make any sense at all.

Strictly speaking, you are correct. It represents the setting sun (sinking
fortunes) of the Japanese Empire. Later in the squadron's life this meaning
was lost as "corporate memory" of WWII gradually faded.

(This info was given to me by several Sundowners - we (VA-95) cruised with
them as part of CVW-15 in 1973.)

One person's sunset is another's sunrise though, in both literal and
figurative senses.

--
Mike Kanze

"The enemy should be in no doubt that we are his Nemesis and that we are
bringing about his rightful destruction."

- Lieutenant-Colonel Tim Collins, Royal Irish Battle Group, to his troops on
the eve of Operation Iraqi Freedom


"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "WaltBJ" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > What's the number of the VF squadron with the rising sun as a logo?
> > Are they the Sundowners?
> >
>
> That wouldn't make any sense at all.
>
>

[John R Weiss]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote...
>
> > Your point? They ARE fighter pilots...
>
> So because they ARE fighter pilots they chose a rising sun to represent the
> Sundowners? Are you saying fighter pilots are stupid?

Nope.

Just because they may not make sense at times, doesn't make them stupid.

[Ed Rasimus]

On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 02:55:42 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>
>"John R Weiss" > wrote in message
>news:OX0fc.136187$JO3.84364@attbi_s04...
>>
>> Your point? They ARE fighter pilots...
>>
>
>So because they ARE fighter pilots they chose a rising sun to represent the
>Sundowners? Are you saying fighter pilots are stupid?
>
Maybe "rising sun" was a poor descriptor for "sun on the horizon"? How
can one tell by looking at a logo if they are looking a a depiction of
East horizon or West?

Fighter pilots are not stupid, but, they occasionally may be
disoriented. At least AF pilots can always orient themselves by the
base runway--for the poor nasal radiators the runway keeps moving and
turning.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[John R Weiss]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote...
>
> Fighter pilots are not stupid, but, they occasionally may be
> disoriented. At least AF pilots can always orient themselves by the
> base runway--for the poor nasal radiators the runway keeps moving and
> turning.

It's a test -- can we stay oriented while the runway's moving in circles?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
>
> Maybe "rising sun" was a poor descriptor for "sun on the horizon"?
>

I think a logo with a "sun on the horizon" for any group calling themselves
the Sun Downers would be best described as a setting sun.


>
> How can one tell by looking at a logo if they are looking a a
> depiction of East horizon or West?
>

If the logo is for the Sun Downers it's a west horizon.

[Ed Rasimus]

On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:57:08 GMT, "John R Weiss"
> wrote:

>"Ed Rasimus" > wrote...
>>
>> Fighter pilots are not stupid, but, they occasionally may be
>> disoriented. At least AF pilots can always orient themselves by the
>> base runway--for the poor nasal radiators the runway keeps moving and
>> turning.
>
>It's a test -- can we stay oriented while the runway's moving in circles?

Why does that conjure up an image of a base turn that never reaches
final?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[John R Weiss]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote...
>
>>It's a test -- can we stay oriented while the runway's moving in circles?
>
> Why does that conjure up an image of a base turn that never reaches
> final?

Been there; done that! When operating "zip lip" in the vicinity of rainstorms,
the ship would often make unannounced turns.

Occasionally they'd do it during night EMCON ops, too, but that would result in
a ILS localizer that just wouldn't stay in the middle...

[Yofuri]

"John R Weiss" > wrote in message
news:ZOhfc.134856$gA5.1580389@attbi_s03...
> "Ed Rasimus" > wrote...
> >
> >>It's a test -- can we stay oriented while the runway's moving in
circles?
> >
> > Why does that conjure up an image of a base turn that never reaches
> > final?
>
> Been there; done that! When operating "zip lip" in the vicinity of
rainstorms,
> the ship would often make unannounced turns.
>
> Occasionally they'd do it during night EMCON ops, too, but that would
result in
> a ILS localizer that just wouldn't stay in the middle...
>

Which ship in whose Navy had an ILS localizer on board? Did it tow marker
beacons, too?

Rick

[vincent p. norris]

>Fighter pilots are not stupid, but, they occasionally may be
>disoriented.

What about fighter pilots of the IJN? Did they become disoccidented?

vince norris

[John Carrier]

> Which ship in whose Navy had an ILS localizer on board? Did it tow marker
> beacons, too?

SPN41, equivalent to ILS. A godsend when it got ugly and/or dark.

Yes, those plane guard helos had a hell of a time maintaining position with
their marker beacons, heh, heh, heh.

Obviously, we were limited to DME only, assuming it was radiating. But
given the nature of the beast, you knew pretty much where you were by
altitude.

R / John

[Ogden Johnson III]

vincent p. norris > wrote:

>>Fighter pilots are not stupid, but, they occasionally may be
>>disoriented.

>What about fighter pilots of the IJN? Did they become disoccidented?

Ggggggggggrrrrrrrrrrooooooooooaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnn .
--
OJ III
[Email sent to Yahoo address is burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast.]

[John R Weiss]

"Yofuri" > wrote...
>
> Which ship in whose Navy had an ILS localizer on board? Did it tow marker
> beacons, too?

SPN-41 ILS was a Navy-specific system. Course & G/S, but no marker beacons. We
used DME or radar for tipover info.

[Pechs1]

Ed-<< Why does that conjure up an image of a base turn that never reaches
final? >><BR><BR>

Ya haven't lived until ya try to get aboard when the ship's inna turn..great
fun and if ya don't kill yerself, an auto 'OK' pass from paddles.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Pechs1]

What's an 'ILS'...needles were for Nancys.....
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[John R Weiss]

"Pechs1" > wrote...
> What's an 'ILS'...needles were for Nancys.....

True...

They never worked on Lex for my initial A-6 qual...

The Combat Buckeye and TraCom Scooters didn't have them, either.

[Mike Kanze]

John,

>They never worked on Lex for my initial A-6 qual...

Flying the needles reminds me of the A-6A's AN/ASQ-61 Landing Mode program.
Think of an ILS-type approach displayed through VDI symbology and driven by
ever-meandering velocities from the "A's" squirrelly AN/ASN-31 inertial, and
you'll get the idea.

We tried it one VMC night while approaching runway 24 at Whidbey. Until
that experience I never knew that the Earth rotated about Dugualla Bay. <g>

On the other hand, when the Q-61 and the inertial were both running "tight,"
Landing Mode was very useful for mining.

--
Mike Kanze

"The enemy should be in no doubt that we are his Nemesis and that we are
bringing about his rightful destruction."

- Lieutenant-Colonel Tim Collins, Royal Irish Battle Group, to his troops on
the eve of Operation Iraqi Freedom


"John R Weiss" > wrote in message
news:xxzfc.44064$xn4.148428@attbi_s51...
> "Pechs1" > wrote...
> > What's an 'ILS'...needles were for Nancys.....
>
> True...
>
> They never worked on Lex for my initial A-6 qual...
>
> The Combat Buckeye and TraCom Scooters didn't have them, either.
>

[John Carrier]

To my knowledge, Lex had no needles. They certainly weren't there on my
initial night qual in the F-8.

R / John

"John R Weiss" > wrote in message
news:xxzfc.44064$xn4.148428@attbi_s51...
> "Pechs1" > wrote...
> > What's an 'ILS'...needles were for Nancys.....
>
> True...
>
> They never worked on Lex for my initial A-6 qual...
>
> The Combat Buckeye and TraCom Scooters didn't have them, either.
>

[John R Weiss]

"Mike Kanze" > wrote...
>
> Flying the needles reminds me of the A-6A's AN/ASQ-61 Landing Mode program.
> Think of an ILS-type approach displayed through VDI symbology and driven by
> ever-meandering velocities from the "A's" squirrelly AN/ASN-31 inertial, and
> you'll get the idea.
>
> We tried it one VMC night while approaching runway 24 at Whidbey. Until
> that experience I never knew that the Earth rotated about Dugualla Bay. <g>

I've flown a few Landing Modes in the TRAM, but even then they were a bit
squirrelly without good offsets and a good Az- and El-Lock. All Whidbey BNs had
local offsets down pat, but it could get interesting at an unfamiliar field on a
dark night. Some BNs would use the Laser, but that was a no-no in many
places... ;-)

[Mike Kanze]

John,

>I've flown a few Landing Modes in the TRAM, but even then they were a bit
squirrelly without good offsets and a good Az- and El-Lock. All Whidbey BNs
had local offsets down pat, but it could get interesting at an unfamiliar
field on a dark night.

Good offsets and LOTS of updates were even more important with the very
primitive "A" systems. Unfortunately I never had the comparative pleasure
of operating the "E" system. "Es" were still wet dreams for the West Coast
B/Ns when I left the Rock in 1974.

--
Mike Kanze

"The enemy should be in no doubt that we are his Nemesis and that we are
bringing about his rightful destruction."

- Lieutenant-Colonel Tim Collins, Royal Irish Battle Group, to his troops on
the eve of Operation Iraqi Freedom


"John R Weiss" > wrote in message
news:hyFfc.48722$rg5.109496@attbi_s52...
> "Mike Kanze" > wrote...
> >
> > Flying the needles reminds me of the A-6A's AN/ASQ-61 Landing Mode
program.
> > Think of an ILS-type approach displayed through VDI symbology and driven
by
> > ever-meandering velocities from the "A's" squirrelly AN/ASN-31 inertial,
and
> > you'll get the idea.
> >
> > We tried it one VMC night while approaching runway 24 at Whidbey. Until
> > that experience I never knew that the Earth rotated about Dugualla Bay.
<g>
>
> I've flown a few Landing Modes in the TRAM, but even then they were a bit
> squirrelly without good offsets and a good Az- and El-Lock. All Whidbey
BNs had
> local offsets down pat, but it could get interesting at an unfamiliar
field on a
> dark night. Some BNs would use the Laser, but that was a no-no in many
> places... ;-)
>

[vincent p. norris]

>>>Fighter pilots are not stupid, but, they occasionally may be
>>>disoriented.
>
>>What about fighter pilots of the IJN? Did they become disoccidented?
>
>Ggggggggggrrrrrrrrrrooooooooooaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnn .

Yeah, but I'll bet you grinned!

vince

[Pechs1]

John-<< To my knowledge, Lex had no needles. They certainly weren't there on
my
initial night qual in the F-8. >><BR><BR>


Night CQ on the Lex...in the F-8...yowser...I don't know this, as I should but
was the 'O' boat a 27C, ala Hancock?.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Paul Michael Brown]

John R Weiss > wrote:

> I've flown a few Landing Modes in the TRAM, but even then they were a bit
> squirrelly without good offsets and a good Az- and El-Lock. All Whidbey
BNs had
> local offsets down pat, but it could get interesting at an unfamiliar
field on a
> dark night. Some BNs would use the Laser, but that was a no-no in many
> places.

How was the laser used to make landing easier in bad weather? Why was it a
"no-no in many places?"

[John Carrier]

Yes it was indeed. IIRC, due to minor variations in design, O-boat offered
the most hook-to-ramp of the three ... a whopping 10.2 feet on a 4 degree
glideslope.

R / John

"Pechs1" > wrote in message
...
> John-<< To my knowledge, Lex had no needles. They certainly weren't there
on
> my
> initial night qual in the F-8. >><BR><BR>
>
>
> Night CQ on the Lex...in the F-8...yowser...I don't know this, as I should
but
> was the 'O' boat a 27C, ala Hancock?.
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
Phlyer

[John R Weiss]

"Paul Michael Brown" > wrote...
>
> How was the laser used to make landing easier in bad weather? Why was it a
> "no-no in many places?"

Laser Ranging could be used in place of the Radar Azimuth and Elevation locks to
provide more precise targeting and position updating info. In Landing Mode, it
updated the aircraft position relative to known offsets (e.g., an arresting gear
engine or radar shack near the runway). As long as the humidity was low enough
to allow laser penetration, it worked well.

However, if the offset was a manned building, or an LSO was on station at the
runway, shining the Laser at him would be ungood...

[Mike Kanze]

>As long as the humidity was low enough to allow laser penetration, it
worked well.

And the Rock (Whidbey Island) is not known for low humidity as all who have
been there will testify. This applies as well to many other locales
infested with Naval aircraft, starting with the ship.
--
Mike Kanze

436 Greenbrier Road
Half Moon Bay, California 94019-2259
USA

650-726-7890

"The enemy should be in no doubt that we are his Nemesis and that we are
bringing about his rightful destruction."

- Lieutenant-Colonel Tim Collins, Royal Irish Battle Group, to his troops on
the eve of Operation Iraqi Freedom


"John R Weiss" > wrote in message
news:98Tfc.145077$gA5.1764085@attbi_s03...
> "Paul Michael Brown" > wrote...
> >
> > How was the laser used to make landing easier in bad weather? Why was it
a
> > "no-no in many places?"
>
> Laser Ranging could be used in place of the Radar Azimuth and Elevation
locks to
> provide more precise targeting and position updating info. In Landing
Mode, it
> updated the aircraft position relative to known offsets (e.g., an
arresting gear
> engine or radar shack near the runway). As long as the humidity was low
enough
> to allow laser penetration, it worked well.
>
> However, if the offset was a manned building, or an LSO was on station at
the
> runway, shining the Laser at him would be ungood...
>