Belly Landing - Involve the insurance company?

[noel.wade]

All -

Would love opinions from anyone who's been through an insurance-
related claim on a glider... My DG-300's gear collapsed on landing
Saturday. The down-lock tab squished into the rubber "donut" spacer,
instead of pivoting into place beyond it, and I didn't notice the
difference (it was literally within 1/16th of an inch of being in the
fully locked position). Left a nice white stripe down the first 75
yards along the centerline of the runway (why did it have to happen at
an asphalt strip, when I fly half the year on grass??). Photos for
the morbidly curious: http://picasaweb.google.com/noel.wade/landinggearcollapse/

Structurally the ship seems good - banging on the damaged area yields
no flex or cracking, and the DG has a separate seat-pan; but contest
season is about to start for me in late June and I don't want the raw
glass exposed to the elements or sitting prone to further damage.

I lost the gelcoat and 1 or 2 layers of glass in an 8" x 15" area just
in front of the gear. Gear doors are almost unscathed, but the guard-
ring/back-release on the belly-hook got ground down a bit - I'm sure a
replacement Tost system ain't cheap!

The big question right now is whether I involve the insurance
company. I've got a loan on the glider, so its fully insured through
Avemco. If its just glass-work I'd probably just pay out-of-pocket
and be done with it... but throw in potentially a little landing-gear
work and replacing the Tost belly-hook and I'm guessing it'll be a few
thousand $$...

Anyone have experience with filing a claim on aircraft damage with
Avemco or Costello? How much of an ordeal was it? How much did your
rates go up? Any tips?

Thanks,

--Noel

[Grider Pirate]

On May 24, 1:22*pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
> All -
>
> Would love opinions from anyone who's been through an insurance-
> related claim on a glider... *My DG-300's gear collapsed on landing
> Saturday. *The down-lock tab squished into the rubber "donut" spacer,
> instead of pivoting into place beyond it, and I didn't notice the
> difference (it was literally within 1/16th of an inch of being in the
> fully locked position). *Left a nice white stripe down the first 75
> yards along the centerline of the runway (why did it have to happen at
> an asphalt strip, when I fly half the year on grass??). *Photos for
> the morbidly curious: *http://picasaweb.google.com/noel.wade/landinggearcollapse/
>
> Structurally the ship seems good - banging on the damaged area yields
> no flex or cracking, and the DG has a separate seat-pan; but contest
> season is about to start for me in late June and I don't want the raw
> glass exposed to the elements or sitting prone to further damage.
>
> I lost the gelcoat and 1 or 2 layers of glass in an 8" x 15" area just
> in front of the gear. *Gear doors are almost unscathed, but the guard-
> ring/back-release on the belly-hook got ground down a bit - I'm sure a
> replacement Tost system ain't cheap!
>
> The big question right now is whether I involve the insurance
> company. *I've got a loan on the glider, so its fully insured through
> Avemco. *If its just glass-work I'd probably just pay out-of-pocket
> and be done with it... but throw in potentially a little landing-gear
> work and replacing the Tost belly-hook and I'm guessing it'll be a few
> thousand $$...
>
> Anyone have experience with filing a claim on aircraft damage with
> Avemco or Costello? *How much of an ordeal was it? *How much did your
> rates go up? *Any tips?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Noel

I had a claim with Costello (AIG), for $3k+, and they were very nice
about it. Unlike auto insurance, my rates did NOT skyrocket. Costello
gives you an X% discount per year of no claims, and my discount got
'reset' to zero. That's the only increase in rate I experienced.

[[email protected]]

On May 24, 4:22*pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
> All -
>
> Would love opinions from anyone who's been through an insurance-
> related claim on a glider... *My DG-300's gear collapsed on landing
> Saturday. *The down-lock tab squished into the rubber "donut" spacer,
> instead of pivoting into place beyond it, and I didn't notice the
> difference (it was literally within 1/16th of an inch of being in the
> fully locked position). *Left a nice white stripe down the first 75
> yards along the centerline of the runway (why did it have to happen at
> an asphalt strip, when I fly half the year on grass??). *Photos for
> the morbidly curious: *http://picasaweb.google.com/noel.wade/landinggearcollapse/
>
> Structurally the ship seems good - banging on the damaged area yields
> no flex or cracking, and the DG has a separate seat-pan; but contest
> season is about to start for me in late June and I don't want the raw
> glass exposed to the elements or sitting prone to further damage.
>
> I lost the gelcoat and 1 or 2 layers of glass in an 8" x 15" area just
> in front of the gear. *Gear doors are almost unscathed, but the guard-
> ring/back-release on the belly-hook got ground down a bit - I'm sure a
> replacement Tost system ain't cheap!
>
> The big question right now is whether I involve the insurance
> company. *I've got a loan on the glider, so its fully insured through
> Avemco. *If its just glass-work I'd probably just pay out-of-pocket
> and be done with it... but throw in potentially a little landing-gear
> work and replacing the Tost belly-hook and I'm guessing it'll be a few
> thousand $$...
>
> Anyone have experience with filing a claim on aircraft damage with
> Avemco or Costello? *How much of an ordeal was it? *How much did your
> rates go up? *Any tips?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Noel

I consider hull insurance as protection from big loss. Your belly work
isn't all that expensive. Get the rest of it looked at and then your
decision will be more obvious. Multiple claims are what raise rates so
best bet is to save it till you really need it.
Costello and supporting folks will treat you well in any case. Tow
releases are in the hundreds, not thousands, but a look at mounting
area will be appropriate.
Sorry for your pain
UH

[noel.wade]

On May 24, 2:15*pm, wrote:

> I consider hull insurance as protection from big loss. Your belly work
> isn't all that expensive. Get the rest of it looked at and then your

Preliminary repair estimate: $2000 (partly due to the fact that the
belly hook almost certainly needs to be replaced).

Argh!

--Noel

[John Cochrane]

On May 24, 4:54*pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
> On May 24, 2:15*pm, wrote:
>
> > I consider hull insurance as protection from big loss. Your belly work
> > isn't all that expensive. Get the rest of it looked at and then your
>
> Preliminary repair estimate: *$2000 (partly due to the fact that the
> belly hook almost certainly needs to be replaced).
>
> Argh!
>
> --Noel

My experience: Costello gives great service. Your rates and deductible
will go up for a few years. Find out the amounts. Typically it's just
worth it for a replacement canopy ($5,000). For $2,000 it's probably
not worth a claim.

Unfortunately, Costello/SSA do not offer insurance with a high
deductible so that people like me who only want insurance for
catastrophic events can avoid paying premiums for this kind of
stuff.

John Cochrane

[Tuno]

Noel,

I was going to reply with a simple "No", until I read your post about
the $2000 estimate. Ouch!

Last February my gear collapsed on my ASG29 while landing at El Tiro.
It wasn't a collapse as much as it was a complete retraction (up and
locked) after first contact with the ground, so the doors were
completely spared. The result was a one day repair for less than my
Avemco deductable, which I keep high because I buy insurance for the
catastrophic events, as John Cochrane describes.

Btw if you haven't taken advantage of Avemco's safety course discount
program, you should. You go to http://www.faasafety.gov/ and take a
course and call Avemco with the completion details. Instant 5%
discount.

~crashtestdummy/2NO

[Ramy]

On May 24, 1:22*pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
> All -
>
> Would love opinions from anyone who's been through an insurance-
> related claim on a glider... *My DG-300's gear collapsed on landing
> Saturday. *The down-lock tab squished into the rubber "donut" spacer,
> instead of pivoting into place beyond it, and I didn't notice the
> difference (it was literally within 1/16th of an inch of being in the
> fully locked position). *Left a nice white stripe down the first 75
> yards along the centerline of the runway (why did it have to happen at
> an asphalt strip, when I fly half the year on grass??). *Photos for
> the morbidly curious: *http://picasaweb.google.com/noel.wade/landinggearcollapse/
>
> Structurally the ship seems good - banging on the damaged area yields
> no flex or cracking, and the DG has a separate seat-pan; but contest
> season is about to start for me in late June and I don't want the raw
> glass exposed to the elements or sitting prone to further damage.
>
> I lost the gelcoat and 1 or 2 layers of glass in an 8" x 15" area just
> in front of the gear. *Gear doors are almost unscathed, but the guard-
> ring/back-release on the belly-hook got ground down a bit - I'm sure a
> replacement Tost system ain't cheap!
>
> The big question right now is whether I involve the insurance
> company. *I've got a loan on the glider, so its fully insured through
> Avemco. *If its just glass-work I'd probably just pay out-of-pocket
> and be done with it... but throw in potentially a little landing-gear
> work and replacing the Tost belly-hook and I'm guessing it'll be a few
> thousand $$...
>
> Anyone have experience with filing a claim on aircraft damage with
> Avemco or Costello? *How much of an ordeal was it? *How much did your
> rates go up? *Any tips?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Noel

Don't know about Avemco, but with Costelo it will increase your
premiums by couple of hundred bucks for 3 years, so if it is over $500
it worth making a claim. Best thing is to call them and ask, it
wouldn't hurt you if you decide not to make a claim.
One point to consider is that if you declare that the cause is purely
mechanical than it will not considered an accident and may not be
covered, you may need to blame it on rough landing to be covered.

Ramy

[Matt Herron Jr.]

Noel,

Even though your gear failed, nice landing! Right on the numbers, and
right down the middle.

Matt

[David[_13_]]

On May 24, 1:22*pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
> All -
>
> Would love opinions from anyone who's been through an insurance-
> related claim on a glider... *My DG-300's gear collapsed on landing
> Saturday. *The down-lock tab squished into the rubber "donut" spacer,
...............
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Noel

Noel,

Same exact thing happened to me in my DG300. The fact that the tab
can get in between the rubber and the end of the rod is an unfortunate
byproduct of this design.

I now make sure every time that the tab goes beyond the
end of the rod. The handle should be spring loaded (there is a mod for
that)
so make sure the handle applies touches the sidewall firmly. If it is
pushing against the rubber it will not. So that's an indicator as
well. Try it
and see.

I recommend you have your mechanic check the landing gear gas strut.
Mine needed to be replaced. The gas strut is what keeps the gear over
center in the extended position.

David

[brianDG303[_2_]]

On May 25, 9:40*am, David > wrote:
> On May 24, 1:22*pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
>
> > All -
>
> > Would love opinions from anyone who's been through an insurance-
> > related claim on a glider... *My DG-300's gear collapsed on landing
> > Saturday. *The down-lock tab squished into the rubber "donut" spacer,
> ..............
>
> > Thanks,
>
> > --Noel
>
> Noel,
>
> Same exact thing happened to me in my DG300. The fact that the tab
> can get in between the rubber and the end of the rod is an unfortunate
> byproduct of this design.
>
> I now make sure every time that the tab goes beyond the
> end of the rod. The handle should be spring loaded (there is a mod for
> that)
> so make sure the handle applies touches the sidewall firmly. If it is
> pushing against the rubber it will not. So that's an indicator as
> well. Try it
> and see.
>
> I recommend you have your mechanic check the landing gear gas strut.
> Mine needed to be replaced. The gas strut is what keeps the gear over
> center in the extended position.
>
> David

David,
What happened to you and to Noel almost happened to me, but the gear
warning buzzer went off. It is possible to set up the gear warning
microswitch/magnet pair so that the gear handle has to be hard against
the stop or the alarm will sound. Easy way to save some money.

Brian

[JAS]

On May 25, 5:40*pm, David > wrote:
> On May 24, 1:22*pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
>
> > All -
>
> > Would love opinions from anyone who's been through an insurance-
> > related claim on a glider... *My DG-300's gear collapsed on landing
> > Saturday. *The down-lock tab squished into the rubber "donut" spacer,
> ..............
>
> > Thanks,
>
> > --Noel
>
> Noel,
>
> Same exact thing happened to me in my DG300. The fact that the tab
> can get in between the rubber and the end of the rod is an unfortunate
> byproduct of this design.
>
> I now make sure every time that the tab goes beyond the
> end of the rod. The handle should be spring loaded (there is a mod for
> that)
> so make sure the handle applies touches the sidewall firmly. If it is
> pushing against the rubber it will not. So that's an indicator as
> well. Try it
> and see.
>
> I recommend you have your mechanic check the landing gear gas strut.
> Mine needed to be replaced. The gas strut is what keeps the gear over
> center in the extended position.
>
> David

My 300 has done this as well, it very important to make sure the
handle is really engaged hard, I was lucky we had come to a halt
before it subsided rather majestically with no damage. Obviously
slipped out at that point.

[JAS]

On May 25, 6:30*pm, brianDG303 > wrote:
> On May 25, 9:40*am, David > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On May 24, 1:22*pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
>
> > > All -
>
> > > Would love opinions from anyone who's been through an insurance-
> > > related claim on a glider... *My DG-300's gear collapsed on landing
> > > Saturday. *The down-lock tab squished into the rubber "donut" spacer,
> > ..............
>
> > > Thanks,
>
> > > --Noel
>
> > Noel,
>
> > Same exact thing happened to me in my DG300. The fact that the tab
> > can get in between the rubber and the end of the rod is an unfortunate
> > byproduct of this design.
>
> > I now make sure every time that the tab goes beyond the
> > end of the rod. The handle should be spring loaded (there is a mod for
> > that)
> > so make sure the handle applies touches the sidewall firmly. If it is
> > pushing against the rubber it will not. So that's an indicator as
> > well. Try it
> > and see.
>
> > I recommend you have your mechanic check the landing gear gas strut.
> > Mine needed to be replaced. The gas strut is what keeps the gear over
> > center in the extended position.
>
> > David
>
> David,
> What happened to you and to Noel almost happened to me, but the gear
> warning buzzer went off. It is possible to set up the gear warning
> microswitch/magnet pair so that the gear handle has to be hard against
> the stop or the alarm will sound. Easy way to save some money.
>
> Brian

Do you have a copy of how to do that? I would be bery nterested.
Jackie

[Andreas Maurer]

On Tue, 25 May 2010 09:40:30 -0700 (PDT), David
> wrote:


>Same exact thing happened to me in my DG300. The fact that the tab
>can get in between the rubber and the end of the rod is an unfortunate
>byproduct of this design.

There's a modification available since about 1990 - it's a brass
half-tube that shields the rubber and forces the pilot to push the
lever fully forward before he can turn it towards the sidewall. Works
like a charm.


>I now make sure every time that the tab goes beyond the
>end of the rod. The handle should be spring loaded (there is a mod for
>that)
>so make sure the handle applies touches the sidewall firmly. If it is
>pushing against the rubber it will not. So that's an indicator as
>well.

Indeed - this is probably the most important point to know if you're
flying a DG-30x - the gear lever must touch the sidewall if the gear
is extended.



>I recommend you have your mechanic check the landing gear gas strut.
>Mine needed to be replaced. The gas strut is what keeps the gear over
>center in the extended position.

Good advice, too.


Cheers
Andreas
Bye
Andreas

[brianDG303[_2_]]

On May 26, 12:55*am, JAS > wrote:
> On May 25, 6:30*pm, brianDG303 > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On May 25, 9:40*am, David > wrote:
>
> > > On May 24, 1:22*pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
>
> > > > All -
>
> > > > Would love opinions from anyone who's been through an insurance-
> > > > related claim on a glider... *My DG-300's gear collapsed on landing
> > > > Saturday. *The down-lock tab squished into the rubber "donut" spacer,
> > > ..............
>
> > > > Thanks,
>
> > > > --Noel
>
> > > Noel,
>
> > > Same exact thing happened to me in my DG300. The fact that the tab
> > > can get in between the rubber and the end of the rod is an unfortunate
> > > byproduct of this design.
>
> > > I now make sure every time that the tab goes beyond the
> > > end of the rod. The handle should be spring loaded (there is a mod for
> > > that)
> > > so make sure the handle applies touches the sidewall firmly. If it is
> > > pushing against the rubber it will not. So that's an indicator as
> > > well. Try it
> > > and see.
>
> > > I recommend you have your mechanic check the landing gear gas strut.
> > > Mine needed to be replaced. The gas strut is what keeps the gear over
> > > center in the extended position.
>
> > > David
>
> > David,
> > What happened to you and to Noel almost happened to me, but the gear
> > warning buzzer went off. It is possible to set up the gear warning
> > microswitch/magnet pair so that the gear handle has to be hard against
> > the stop or the alarm will sound. Easy way to save some money.
>
> > Brian
>
> Do you have a copy of how to do that? I would be bery nterested.
> Jackie

Jackie,
the gear handle is attached to a tube that runs behind a removable
panel, take that off. The micro-switch/magnet pair can be there. Move
the magnet on the tube so that the switch opens if the handle is not
in exactly the right place.

Brian

[David[_13_]]

On May 26, 5:23*am, Andreas Maurer > wrote:
> On Tue, 25 May 2010 09:40:30 -0700 (PDT), David
>
> > wrote:
> >Same exact thing happened to me in my DG300. The fact that the tab
> >can get in between the rubber and the end of the rod is an unfortunate
> >byproduct of this design.
>
> There's a modification available since about 1990 - it's a brass
> half-tube that shields the rubber and forces the pilot to push the
> lever fully forward before he can turn it towards the sidewall. Works
> like a charm.
>
> >I now make sure every time that the tab goes beyond the
> >end of the rod. The handle should be spring loaded (there is a mod for
> >that)
> >so make sure the handle applies touches the sidewall firmly. If it is
> >pushing against the rubber it will not. So that's an indicator as
> >well.
>
> Indeed - this is probably the most important point to know if you're
> flying a DG-30x - the gear lever must touch the sidewall if the gear
> is extended.
>
> >I recommend you have your mechanic check the landing gear gas strut.
> >Mine needed to be replaced. The gas strut is what keeps the gear over
> >center in the extended position.
>
> Good advice, too.
>
> Cheers
> Andreas
> Bye
> Andreas

Andreas,

Do you have a pointer to the brass half-tube mod? Is it on the DG web
site? Thanks.

Noel,

One more thing.

The black gear handle has two obvious orientations, 180 degrees to
each other. One of those orientations will let the tab go a little
"deeper"
behind the end of the rod. After my incident I noticed I really wanted
the handle turned by 180 degrees from what it was.

Hope this makes sense, otherwise let me know.

David

[JAS]

On May 26, 3:27*pm, brianDG303 > wrote:
> On May 26, 12:55*am, JAS > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On May 25, 6:30*pm, brianDG303 > wrote:
>
> > > On May 25, 9:40*am, David > wrote:
>
> > > > On May 24, 1:22*pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
>
> > > > > All -
>
> > > > > Would love opinions from anyone who's been through an insurance-
> > > > > related claim on a glider... *My DG-300's gear collapsed on landing
> > > > > Saturday. *The down-lock tab squished into the rubber "donut" spacer,
> > > > ..............
>
> > > > > Thanks,
>
> > > > > --Noel
>
> > > > Noel,
>
> > > > Same exact thing happened to me in my DG300. The fact that the tab
> > > > can get in between the rubber and the end of the rod is an unfortunate
> > > > byproduct of this design.
>
> > > > I now make sure every time that the tab goes beyond the
> > > > end of the rod. The handle should be spring loaded (there is a mod for
> > > > that)
> > > > so make sure the handle applies touches the sidewall firmly. If it is
> > > > pushing against the rubber it will not. So that's an indicator as
> > > > well. Try it
> > > > and see.
>
> > > > I recommend you have your mechanic check the landing gear gas strut..
> > > > Mine needed to be replaced. The gas strut is what keeps the gear over
> > > > center in the extended position.
>
> > > > David
>
> > > David,
> > > What happened to you and to Noel almost happened to me, but the gear
> > > warning buzzer went off. It is possible to set up the gear warning
> > > microswitch/magnet pair so that the gear handle has to be hard against
> > > the stop or the alarm will sound. Easy way to save some money.
>
> > > Brian
>
> > Do you have a copy of how to do that? I would be bery nterested.
> > Jackie
>
> Jackie,
> the gear handle is attached to a tube that runs behind a removable
> panel, take that off. The micro-switch/magnet pair can be there. Move
> the magnet on the tube so that the switch opens if the handle is not
> in exactly the right place.
>
> Brian

Many thanks, a job for Friday! I have had a couple of scares and this
would be a useful mod.
Jackie