Law of Primacy

[[email protected]]

I guess we are all pretty much in agrement that the law of primacy
makes it just about impossible for anyone who learned glider flying
with 0 altimeter to ever be able to fly with MSL altimeter, because
under pressure, he will revert back, and death, distruction, disaster,
etc will ensue.

With the Law of Primacy in mind take stab at this little
test........See if you come to the same conclusion that I
did.........We are all in terrible peril!

Glider Flying Law of Primacy Test

1. In glider flying, speed is given in units of:

a) Miles per hour
b) Knots
c) Meters per second
d) Kilometers per hour

2. In glider flying rate of climb is given as:

a) Feet per minute
b) Meters per second
c) Knots


3. In glider flying distances are measured as:

a) Miles
b) Nautical miles
c) Kilometers
d) Meters

4. In glider flying altitude is measured in:

a) Feet
b) Meters


5. In glider flying time is given in terms of:

a) Local time
b) Local daylight time
c) UTC time
d) Zulu time
e) GMT time


6. In glider flying weights are measured in:

a) Kilos
b) Pounds
c) Ounces


7. In glider flying, Long. Lat. is specified in

a) Degrees, minutes, seconds
b) Degrees minutes, thousandths of minutes
c) Degrees, thousandths of degrees

8. In glider flying winds are given as relative to:

a) True north
b) Magnetic north

9. In glider flying “course” and “heading” are given as:

a) Magnetic
b) True


10. In glider flying water ballast is measured in:

a) Pounds
b) Gallons
c) Liters
d) Kilos

11) In glider flying altitude is referenced in:

a) AGL
b) MSL
c) 29.92
d) Absolute altitude
e) GPS altitude
f) Radar altitude
g) True altitude
h) Calibrated altitude
i) Sensitive altitude
j) Non sensitive altitude

[Mike Yankee]

Your mocking tone does not help the argument. The issue with zeroing
one's altimeter has nothing to do with units of measurement. One can
fly safely and proficiently using knots, meters per second, furlongs
per fortnight, etc. Flying with one's altimeter set to zero
simplifies one data point (height above ground at the departure field
for a given barometric pressure), which has a certain appeal to
neophytes, but complicates everything else from final glides to
spotting traffic.

The point about the Law of Primacy is not that QFE is "wrong" per se
(although its disadvantages should be obvious) but that, once taught,
it may be hard to unlearn. So why bother teaching it? Instructors
and club officers should be mindful of the problems it can cause.

[John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]]

On Jun 6, 9:03*am, Mike Yankee > wrote:
> Your mocking tone does not help the argument. *The issue with zeroing
> one's altimeter has nothing to do with units of measurement. *One can
> fly safely and proficiently using knots, meters per second, furlongs
> per fortnight, etc. *Flying with one's altimeter set to zero
> simplifies one data point (height above ground at the departure field
> for a given barometric pressure), which has a certain appeal to
> neophytes, but complicates everything else from final glides to
> spotting traffic.
>
> The point about the Law of Primacy is not that QFE is "wrong" per se
> (although its disadvantages should be obvious) but that, once taught,
> it may be hard to unlearn. *So why bother teaching it? *Instructors
> and club officers should be mindful of the problems it can cause.

This is a "convert to the metric system" problem. I.e. it's the right
thing to do any only gets harder as time goes on... You can deal with
a big problem now or a bigger problem later.

[[email protected]]

On Jun 6, 7:31*am, " >
wrote:
> I guess we are all pretty much in agrement that the law of primacy
> makes it just about impossible for anyone who learned glider flying
> with 0 altimeter to ever be able to fly with MSL altimeter, because
> under pressure, he will revert back, and death, distruction, disaster,
> etc will ensue.
>
> With the Law of Primacy in mind take stab at this little
> test........See if you come to the same conclusion that I
> did.........We are all in terrible peril!
>
> Glider Flying Law of Primacy Test
>
> 1. * * *In glider flying, speed is given in units of:
>
> a) * * *Miles per hour
> b) * * *Knots
> c) * * *Meters per second
> d) * * *Kilometers per hour
>
> 2. * * *In glider flying rate of climb is given as:
>
> a) * * *Feet per minute
> b) * * *Meters per second
> c) * * *Knots
>
> 3. * * *In glider flying distances are measured as:
>
> a) * * *Miles
> b) * * *Nautical miles
> c) * * *Kilometers
> d) * * *Meters
>
> 4. * * *In glider flying altitude is measured in:
>
> a) * * *Feet
> b) * * *Meters
>
> 5. * * *In glider flying time is given in terms of:
>
> a) * * *Local time
> b) * * *Local daylight time
> c) * * *UTC time
> d) * * *Zulu time
> e) * * *GMT time
>
> 6. * * *In glider flying weights are measured in:
>
> a) * * *Kilos
> b) * * *Pounds
> c) * * *Ounces
>
> 7. * * *In glider flying, Long. Lat. is specified * in
>
> a) * * *Degrees, minutes, seconds
> b) * * *Degrees minutes, thousandths of minutes
> c) * * *Degrees, thousandths of degrees
>
> 8. * * *In glider flying winds are given as relative to:
>
> a) * * *True north
> b) * * *Magnetic north
>
> 9. * * *In glider flying “course” and “heading” are given as:
>
> a) * * *Magnetic
> b) * * *True
>
> 10. * * In glider flying water ballast is measured in:
>
> a) * * *Pounds
> b) * * *Gallons
> c) * * *Liters
> d) * * *Kilos
>
> 11) In glider flying altitude is referenced in:
>
> a) * * *AGL
> b) * * *MSL
> c) * * *29.92
> d) * * *Absolute altitude
> e) * * *GPS altitude
> f) * * *Radar altitude
> g) * * *True altitude
> h) * * *Calibrated altitude
> i) * * *Sensitive altitude
> j) * * *Non sensitive altitude

We are NOT in agreement that elements not learned "right" or to best
practices- possibly developed later, can't be relearned to new
standards.
It is, however, much harder to get the new learnings to sink in.
The largest risk with respect to altimeter setting, is allowing mixed
operation. This will create the certainty that someone, while skipping
a step on his checklist, will have it wrong.
3 Cool gliders
UH/OH/K21

[[email protected]]

On Jun 6, 3:22*pm, wrote:
> On Jun 6, 7:31*am, " >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I guess we are all pretty much in agrement that the law of primacy
> > makes it just about impossible for anyone who learned glider flying
> > with 0 altimeter to ever be able to fly with MSL altimeter, because
> > under pressure, he will revert back, and death, distruction, disaster,
> > etc will ensue.
>
> > With the Law of Primacy in mind take stab at this little
> > test........See if you come to the same conclusion that I
> > did.........We are all in terrible peril!
>
> > Glider Flying Law of Primacy Test
>
> > 1. * * *In glider flying, speed is given in units of:
>
> > a) * * *Miles per hour
> > b) * * *Knots
> > c) * * *Meters per second
> > d) * * *Kilometers per hour
>
> > 2. * * *In glider flying rate of climb is given as:
>
> > a) * * *Feet per minute
> > b) * * *Meters per second
> > c) * * *Knots
>
> > 3. * * *In glider flying distances are measured as:
>
> > a) * * *Miles
> > b) * * *Nautical miles
> > c) * * *Kilometers
> > d) * * *Meters
>
> > 4. * * *In glider flying altitude is measured in:
>
> > a) * * *Feet
> > b) * * *Meters
>
> > 5. * * *In glider flying time is given in terms of:
>
> > a) * * *Local time
> > b) * * *Local daylight time
> > c) * * *UTC time
> > d) * * *Zulu time
> > e) * * *GMT time
>
> > 6. * * *In glider flying weights are measured in:
>
> > a) * * *Kilos
> > b) * * *Pounds
> > c) * * *Ounces
>
> > 7. * * *In glider flying, Long. Lat. is specified * in
>
> > a) * * *Degrees, minutes, seconds
> > b) * * *Degrees minutes, thousandths of minutes
> > c) * * *Degrees, thousandths of degrees
>
> > 8. * * *In glider flying winds are given as relative to:
>
> > a) * * *True north
> > b) * * *Magnetic north
>
> > 9. * * *In glider flying “course” and “heading” are given as:
>
> > a) * * *Magnetic
> > b) * * *True
>
> > 10. * * In glider flying water ballast is measured in:
>
> > a) * * *Pounds
> > b) * * *Gallons
> > c) * * *Liters
> > d) * * *Kilos
>
> > 11) In glider flying altitude is referenced in:
>
> > a) * * *AGL
> > b) * * *MSL
> > c) * * *29.92
> > d) * * *Absolute altitude
> > e) * * *GPS altitude
> > f) * * *Radar altitude
> > g) * * *True altitude
> > h) * * *Calibrated altitude
> > i) * * *Sensitive altitude
> > j) * * *Non sensitive altitude
>
> We are NOT in agreement that elements not learned "right" or to best
> practices- possibly developed later, can't be relearned to new
> standards.
> It is, however, much harder to get the new learnings to sink in.
> The largest risk with respect to altimeter setting, is allowing mixed
> operation. This will create the certainty that someone, while skipping
> a step on his checklist, will have it wrong.
> 3 Cool gliders
> UH/OH/K21- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

"3 Cool"....Wow, you have one more cool glider than me!

I figured I'd have to explain...........In all my questions above it
shows how the world of full of things that are learned one way, and
then re-learned another. Yes it is harder to re-learn, but not very
hard, but hey that's life...........

But.........this whole altimeter thing is a lot to do about
nothing.........

In my examples, "reverting back" to what was earlier learned can
result in far more serious concequences.......I bet many pilots got
lost flying magnetic vs true............I know pilots who got lost
using wrong long lat notation........Just imagine a pilot thinking he
had to make 20 kilometers back to the home airport, only to find it
was really miles, worse yet, nautical miles!!!


but nobody is on an all out campaign on those areas.......

But of course, European pilots must be banned from flying in USA
because they will "revert" to the metric and we all know the trouble
that will cause...

[T8]

On Jun 6, 5:32*pm, " >
wrote:


> But.........this whole altimeter thing is a lot to do about
> nothing.........

Exactly. Set it as required by the airspace you are in, and deal with
it. Anything else is simply wrong.

-T8

[[email protected]]

On Jun 6, 3:22*pm, wrote:
> On Jun 6, 7:31*am, " >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I guess we are all pretty much in agrement that the law of primacy
> > makes it just about impossible for anyone who learned glider flying
> > with 0 altimeter to ever be able to fly with MSL altimeter, because
> > under pressure, he will revert back, and death, distruction, disaster,
> > etc will ensue.
>
> > With the Law of Primacy in mind take stab at this little
> > test........See if you come to the same conclusion that I
> > did.........We are all in terrible peril!
>
> > Glider Flying Law of Primacy Test
>
> > 1. * * *In glider flying, speed is given in units of:
>
> > a) * * *Miles per hour
> > b) * * *Knots
> > c) * * *Meters per second
> > d) * * *Kilometers per hour
>
> > 2. * * *In glider flying rate of climb is given as:
>
> > a) * * *Feet per minute
> > b) * * *Meters per second
> > c) * * *Knots
>
> > 3. * * *In glider flying distances are measured as:
>
> > a) * * *Miles
> > b) * * *Nautical miles
> > c) * * *Kilometers
> > d) * * *Meters
>
> > 4. * * *In glider flying altitude is measured in:
>
> > a) * * *Feet
> > b) * * *Meters
>
> > 5. * * *In glider flying time is given in terms of:
>
> > a) * * *Local time
> > b) * * *Local daylight time
> > c) * * *UTC time
> > d) * * *Zulu time
> > e) * * *GMT time
>
> > 6. * * *In glider flying weights are measured in:
>
> > a) * * *Kilos
> > b) * * *Pounds
> > c) * * *Ounces
>
> > 7. * * *In glider flying, Long. Lat. is specified * in
>
> > a) * * *Degrees, minutes, seconds
> > b) * * *Degrees minutes, thousandths of minutes
> > c) * * *Degrees, thousandths of degrees
>
> > 8. * * *In glider flying winds are given as relative to:
>
> > a) * * *True north
> > b) * * *Magnetic north
>
> > 9. * * *In glider flying “course” and “heading” are given as:
>
> > a) * * *Magnetic
> > b) * * *True
>
> > 10. * * In glider flying water ballast is measured in:
>
> > a) * * *Pounds
> > b) * * *Gallons
> > c) * * *Liters
> > d) * * *Kilos
>
> > 11) In glider flying altitude is referenced in:
>
> > a) * * *AGL
> > b) * * *MSL
> > c) * * *29.92
> > d) * * *Absolute altitude
> > e) * * *GPS altitude
> > f) * * *Radar altitude
> > g) * * *True altitude
> > h) * * *Calibrated altitude
> > i) * * *Sensitive altitude
> > j) * * *Non sensitive altitude
>
> We are NOT in agreement that elements not learned "right" or to best
> practices- possibly developed later, can't be relearned to new
> standards.
> It is, however, much harder to get the new learnings to sink in.
> The largest risk with respect to altimeter setting, is allowing mixed
> operation. This will create the certainty that someone, while skipping
> a step on his checklist, will have it wrong.
> 3 Cool gliders
> UH/OH/K21- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

3 Cool...........we ARE in agreement..........you CAN learn a
different way to use a tool......In fact this is the way everybody
learns how to do anything!


I can use my watch to tell time........I can set it for UTC
time..........or local........I can set it to 0 and use as a
stopwatch....I can set it to 1 hour and count down to
zero..........amazing isn't it!

But with this Law of Primacy I have a problem......Isn't there also
the "Law of Recency" (What you learned last, sticks)

So which trumps the other?

OK I learned it "this way" first, so I'll always rember that.....But
wait I just learned a "new way to do this", so now I'll always
remember that, but wait the first way, but no the latest
way.........oh no!

Actually logic says that if there is a "Law of Recency" it will always
trump the Law of Primacy, because if it didn't, then there would ONLY
be the Law of Primacy (and nobody would ever learn anything new!)

Of course there is also the building block approach to
learning.........learn this, add to it, add more to it, etc.........

Any way this discussion was fun while it lasted, but pretty
pointless.........far greater Boogey men out there than those evil 0
altimeter setters!

Cookie

[[email protected]]

On Jun 6, 1:20*pm, "John Godfrey (QT)" > wrote:
> On Jun 6, 9:03*am, Mike Yankee > wrote:
>
> > Your mocking tone does not help the argument. *The issue with zeroing
> > one's altimeter has nothing to do with units of measurement. *One can
> > fly safely and proficiently using knots, meters per second, furlongs
> > per fortnight, etc. *Flying with one's altimeter set to zero
> > simplifies one data point (height above ground at the departure field
> > for a given barometric pressure), which has a certain appeal to
> > neophytes, but complicates everything else from final glides to
> > spotting traffic.

Mocking tone is intended.......

Point is we have to do unit conversion all the time, without
catastrophic results.....

Using altimeter cleverly means no conversions.........

Yes, altimeter set to zero simplifies one data point.........that is
the reason to do it.........for local flights, in class E airspace,
without radio, etc....Or not........then use MSL and do
math.........OK too...........

Using MSL for other purposed simplifies too.......so use that when you
need it.....

Using 29.92 is neceassary at other times...........use it when you
need to

Big deal about nothing!

[[email protected]]

On Jun 6, 5:41*pm, T8 > wrote:
> On Jun 6, 5:32*pm, " >
> wrote:
>
> > But.........this whole altimeter thing is a lot to do about
> > nothing.........
>
> Exactly. *Set it as required by the airspace you are in, and deal with
> it. *Anything else is simply wrong.
>
> -T8

OK got it! MSL

Now ...do I use Knots or Miles per hour? UTC or local" Magnetic or
true? Help! I am so confused. Let's make a whole new bunch of
regulations!!!! WE MUST ALL ALWAYS DO IT THE RIGHT WAY ....THE ONLY
WAY!!!


Cookie

[T8]

On Jun 6, 5:58*pm, " >
wrote:
> On Jun 6, 5:41*pm, T8 > wrote:
>
> > On Jun 6, 5:32*pm, " >
> > wrote:
>
> > > But.........this whole altimeter thing is a lot to do about
> > > nothing.........
>
> > Exactly. *Set it as required by the airspace you are in, and deal with
> > it. *Anything else is simply wrong.
>
> > -T8
>
> OK got it! *MSL
>
> Now ...do I use Knots or Miles per hour? *UTC or local" *Magnetic or
> true? * *Help! I am so confused. * Let's make a whole new bunch of
> regulations!!!! * *WE MUST ALL ALWAYS DO IT THE RIGHT WAY ....THE ONLY
> WAY!!!
>
> Cookie

Can I feed those straw men to your troll? I think he needs more fiber
in his diet.

The point is, it's sometimes helpful to be able to request of an
aviator "say altitude" and get an immediately sensible reply.
Standards are helpful. I have plenty of outlet for creativity besides
setting of instruments.

-T8