Pilot Certificates

[Bob Moore]

> wrote
> As a matter of minor interest, there's an interesting logic trap in
> play here. I think it is safe to say all holders of the airline
> transport rating also hold commercial certificates at least in the US.

As I have pointed out before, ATP is NOT a rating, it is a certificate
on its own. My ATP certificate has no mention of the word "Commercial"
on it anywhere. It is not safe to say that ALL holders of an Airline
Transport Pilot certificate also hold a Commercial Pilot certificate.
The ratings on my ATP certficate include "Airplane Single & Multiengine
Land, B-707 B-720 B-727 L-188" and that's all it states.

Now.... there was a time in the distant past when ATP WAS a rating on a
Commercial Pilot certificate, but that disappeared some 45-50 years ago.

Bob Moore
ATP
PanAm (retired)

[a[_3_]]

On Jun 29, 11:18*am, Bob Moore > wrote:
> > wrote
>
> > As a matter of minor interest, there's an interesting logic trap in
> > play here. I think it is safe to say all holders of the airline
> > transport rating also hold commercial certificates at least in the US.
>
> As I have pointed out before, ATP is NOT a rating, it is a certificate
> on its own. My ATP certificate has no mention of the word "Commercial"
> on it anywhere. It is not safe to say that ALL holders of an Airline
> Transport Pilot certificate also hold a Commercial Pilot certificate.
> The ratings on my ATP certficate include "Airplane Single & Multiengine
> Land, B-707 B-720 B-727 L-188" and that's all it states.
>
> Now.... there was a time in the distant past when ATP WAS a rating on a
> Commercial Pilot certificate, but that disappeared some 45-50 years ago.
>
> Bob Moore
> ATP
> PanAm (retired)

My error re rating -- I am old enough to remember when it was.

[Jim Logajan]

Bob Moore > wrote:
> > wrote
>> As a matter of minor interest, there's an interesting logic trap in
>> play here. I think it is safe to say all holders of the airline
>> transport rating also hold commercial certificates at least in the US.
>
> As I have pointed out before, ATP is NOT a rating, it is a certificate
> on its own. My ATP certificate has no mention of the word "Commercial"
> on it anywhere. It is not safe to say that ALL holders of an Airline
> Transport Pilot certificate also hold a Commercial Pilot certificate.
> The ratings on my ATP certficate include "Airplane Single & Multiengine
> Land, B-707 B-720 B-727 L-188" and that's all it states.

Um - in FAR 61.167 it states that "A person who holds an airline transport
pilot certificate is entitled to the same privileges as those afforded a
person who holds a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating."

And FAR 61.153(d) states that a commercial certificate (or military
experience sufficient to qualify for a commercial certificate) and
instrument rating are necessary prerequisites for an ATP certificate.

So while an ATP certificate may be a distinct certificate from a Commercial
one, the rules are such that an ATP holder effectively also holds a
Commercial, even if the word "Commercial" doesn't appear on it. At least
according to current U.S. regulations.

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

On Jun 29, 12:43*pm, Jim Logajan > wrote:
> Bob Moore > wrote:
> > > wrote
> >> As a matter of minor interest, there's an interesting logic trap in
> >> play here. I think it is safe to say all holders of the airline
> >> transport rating also hold commercial certificates at least in the US.
>
> > As I have pointed out before, ATP is NOT a rating, it is a certificate
> > on its own. My ATP certificate has no mention of the word "Commercial"
> > on it anywhere. It is not safe to say that ALL holders of an Airline
> > Transport Pilot certificate also hold a Commercial Pilot certificate.
> > The ratings on my ATP certficate include "Airplane Single & Multiengine
> > Land, B-707 B-720 B-727 L-188" and that's all it states.
>
> Um - in FAR 61.167 it states that "A person who holds an airline transport
> pilot certificate is entitled to the same privileges as those afforded a
> person who holds a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating.."
>
> And FAR 61.153(d) states that a commercial certificate (or military
> experience sufficient to qualify for a commercial certificate) and
> instrument rating are necessary prerequisites for an ATP certificate.
>
> So while an ATP certificate may be a distinct certificate from a Commercial
> one, the rules are such that an ATP holder effectively also holds a
> Commercial, even if the word "Commercial" doesn't appear on it. At least
> according to current U.S. regulations.

I always hated the FAR's and still do. I honestly believe they were
and are written by a troop of monkeys that the government has had
locked up in a room with nothing in it but a water bucket, 20 tons of
bananas and a Remington Speedball Electric typewriter.

FAR #28009696550
"You are certified to do the following, unless "certified" has been
written as "certificated" in part B of subchapter 16c paragraph #246.
You may exercise the privileges of your certificate/rating at any time
between the hours of 6AM and 615AM as per section 27b of sub-section
459-1...............UNLESS............................ .....

God, it's a wonder ANY of us have managed to wander either
professionally or privately through this morass of monkey defecation
for any length of time without violating some clerk's idea of the way
things SHOULD be.
I had a friend of mine who was VERY high up the FAA executive ladder
tell me once jokingly that he would bet me 500 bucks that I couldn't
get in the aircraft, start it up, and taxi it out to the end of the
runway without breaking at least one regulation. I believed him then
and I'd believe this today :-))))))))))))
Dudley Henriques