Naval aviator & NFO attire while underway

[Paul Michael Brown]

Just started reading Sherwood's new book "Afterburner," about naval
aviation during the Vietnam War. While examining ready room photos of
various naval aviators and NFOs, I noticed many of them are *not* wearing
flight suits. Instead, they're wearing trousers, a web belt and a long
sleeve shirt that buttons up the front. (Sometimes this garb seems stiffly
starched. Other times it's sweat-stained and quite wrinkled.) The same
holds true for guys depicted in photos found in other books, such as the
two-volume series on MiG killers.

By way of contrast, whenever I see current day naval aviators and NFOs in
various TV documentaries shot while underway they are *invariably* wearing
flight suits in the ready room, dirty shirt wardroom, etc. Can anybody
explain the change in underway attire between the Vietnam era and today?
Is this controlled by a regulation? By the skipper? By some unwritten
tradition?

[Yofuri]

Many commands had a rule that flight suits were only for flying and alert
standby. Also, spending a warm day in a Nomex flightsuit was an itchy
experience. Aviation Working Green trousers with khaki shirt and necktie
(sometimes) were usually acceptable as Uniform of the Day for aviation
officers and Chief Petty Officers. Many wearers, myself included, didn't
even own a green blouse because flight jackets were locally allowed with
greens. The Navy Relief Thrift Store usually had plenty of trousers in
stock.

Aviation Working Green was (is?) an optional uniform, not prescribable as
Uniform of the Day.

Rick

"Paul Michael Brown" > wrote in message
...
> Just started reading Sherwood's new book "Afterburner," about naval
> aviation during the Vietnam War. While examining ready room photos of
> various naval aviators and NFOs, I noticed many of them are *not* wearing
> flight suits. Instead, they're wearing trousers, a web belt and a long
> sleeve shirt that buttons up the front. (Sometimes this garb seems stiffly
> starched. Other times it's sweat-stained and quite wrinkled.) The same
> holds true for guys depicted in photos found in other books, such as the
> two-volume series on MiG killers.
>
> By way of contrast, whenever I see current day naval aviators and NFOs in
> various TV documentaries shot while underway they are *invariably* wearing
> flight suits in the ready room, dirty shirt wardroom, etc. Can anybody
> explain the change in underway attire between the Vietnam era and today?
> Is this controlled by a regulation? By the skipper? By some unwritten
> tradition?

[Pechs1]

pmb-<< While examining ready room photos of
various naval aviators and NFOs, I noticed many of them are *not* wearing
flight suits. Instead, they're wearing trousers, a web belt and a long
sleeve shirt that buttons up the front. >><BR><BR>

ahhhh, 'green bag syndrome. Depends on the command and CO. I have been in
squadrons where you had better be in khakis if not on the flght sked and others
where we didn't wear anything but a 'bag', as soon as the ship got underway.

Remember tho that in the USN, a flight suit is 'flight gear', not a 'uniform',
unlike the USAF, where it is.


P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Ray]

On 01 Jul 2004 13:03:20 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote:

>Remember tho that in the USN, a flight suit is 'flight gear', not a 'uniform',
>unlike the USAF, where it is.

Fortunately relieving us the embarrassing necessity of wearing a
scarf!

Ray

[Pechs1]

ray-<< Fortunately relieving us the embarrassing necessity of wearing a
scarf! >><BR><BR>

No kiddin' I wore one of those silly things while on USAF excange duty. Great
JOs, great jets, scary upper echelon and rules.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Tom Hayden]

"No kiddin' I wore one of those silly things while on USAF excange duty.
Great
JOs, great jets, scary upper echelon and rules.

P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)"


Got any good stories about the AF JOs, jets, upper echelon or rules you'd
like to share with us?

Tom

[Pechs1]

geezzzer-<< Got any good stories about the AF JOs, jets, upper echelon or rules
you'd
like to share with us? >><BR><BR>

Nothing major, Just stood tall before the wing commander for things like
rolling up my sleeves, wearing brown boots, flying too close when coming into
the overhead..

Many JOs leaving at this time(late 70's) for the airlines. Not a lot of happy
campers but really good pilots. I think there was more than a little SAC
tainted guys around that saw how wierd SAC was during the SE Asia war games.

Plus some O-6s that were transitioning to the F-4 for the first time that were
pretty scary. A B-52 suadron CO that was going to an F-4 wing in Germany.

How they chose their COs still amazes me. Wing Commander picks his COs. When
the Wing Commander is new all sorts of O-5s show up suddenly to rush those
jobs.

My Ops officer went across the state to a O-2 base to try to get a squadron
there, flying Cessna push-pulls, which were all down for shucking their aft
prop, taking off the tails...
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Tom Hayden]

"Plus some O-6s that were transitioning to the F-4 for the first time that
were
pretty scary. A B-52 suadron CO that was going to an F-4 wing in Germany."

I can imagine that WOULD be scary. Why would the AF even bother spending a
lot of time/effort/$ to transition someone that senior to a hot two-seater?
Didn't they have anyone already in the F-4 "community" (don't know if they
use this term) that would be qualified for command?

"How they chose their COs still amazes me. Wing Commander picks his COs.
When the Wing Commander is new all sorts of O-5s show up suddenly to rush
those jobs."

Sounds like a process that might have been left over from the 1930s. This
explains a story I just read in the latest issue of Flight Journal re: some
F-86 pilots in Korea who flew across the Yalu in small flights after
switching to alternate channels and turning off transponders so they
couldn't be easily tracked. The author was obviously a bit ****ed off and
make a remark about squadron COs and Wing Commander's favorites. Now I know
what he meant.

I wonder if this is still USAF practice?

Was exchange duty with the AF considered a prize or a booby prize for USN
pilots? How about the other way around?

By the way, have you ever read the book, "Boyd - The fighter pilot who
changed the art of war"? I bet you have. Comments? I bet you have.

Thanks, Pechs.

Tom

[vincent p. norris]

>Nothing major, Just stood tall before the wing commander for things like
>rolling up my sleeves, wearing brown boots, flying too close when coming into
>the overhead.

Brings back a happy memory. As a green, wet-behind-the-ears and
smart-ass Midshipman in F- Stage at Saufley Field, back in 1950, I was
scheduled to fly with an Air Force pilot on exchange duty named
Gschwandtner (unforgettable name). I had already "learned" that an
Air Force formation was "two or more airplanes going the same
direction on the same day," so I determined to show this guy how we
(budding) Naval Aviators fly formation.

So I hung in as close to him as I could and was delighted to read on
my "report card" that I "holds good formation but flies too close."

Made my day!

But the brown boots were strictly legal, were they not? Even we cadets
wore brown shoes, in those days.

vince norris

[Pechs1]

geeweezer-<< Why would the AF even bother spending a
lot of time/effort/$ to transition someone that senior to a hot two-seater?
Didn't they have anyone already in the F-4 "community" (don't know if they
use this term) that would be qualified for command? >><BR><BR>

I doubt anybody knows how wing commanders are actually chosen in the USAF.
Seemed pretty arbitrary to me. No boards or 'tanks, like the USN.

No rewuirement to have a wing to be a general officer as well. AFAIK, my
CO(61st TFS), Mike Ryan, had that command only, then onto the staff world on
his way to CoS. great CO, BTW.

geeweezer-<< Was exchange duty with the AF considered a prize or a booby prize
for USN
pilots? How about the other way around? >><BR><BR>

It was a one for one trade, some USAF guy to the USN. Difference was I went to
a RTU, training squadron, flew in the trunk mostly where my USAF counterpart
was in a F-4 squadron, fleet type.
It allowed me to stay in the F-4 tho, instead of going to the training command
flying TA-4s.

P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Pechs1]

VPN-<< But the brown boots were strictly legal, were they not? Even we cadets
wore brown shoes, in those days. >><BR><BR>

Well, they wanted me to look the part of USAF IP, black boots, etc. This in the
late 70s. So I wore my brown boots, dirty **** cutter or maybe my green one,
but too many people called me a USMC pilot with that one.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Mike Kanze]

Pechs,

Your various observations from your USAF exchange tour reminded me of a
visit paid the west coast A-6 community by a couple of Blue Suit 'Vark types
during the early 1970s.

Since the FB-111A and the A-6A had roughly similar capabilities (night /
all-wx full-system attack), we were very interested in what these folks had
to say about the 'Vark. What floored many of us though was the near blind
faith these two guys had in the reliability of the "Vark's black boxes,
especially since the 'Vark of that era was still first generation. This of
course was heresy to an A-6A community very used to a less-than-a-hop system
reliability and whack-a-mole circuit breaker management.

These guys may well have been indulging themselves in a bit of inter-service
bravado with their description of the 'Vark's capabilities. However, we got
the very distinct impression that they would have unknowingly pranged into
the John Day River canyon walls had they been flying a night OB-16 low level
mission through eastern Oregon with an errant 'Vark system.

--
Mike Kanze

"I'm developing an insincere optimism to complement my artificial sense of
urgency."

- Dilbert, 12/11/03


"Pechs1" > wrote in message
...
> geezzzer-<< Got any good stories about the AF JOs, jets, upper echelon or
rules
> you'd
> like to share with us? >><BR><BR>
>
> Nothing major, Just stood tall before the wing commander for things like
> rolling up my sleeves, wearing brown boots, flying too close when coming
into
> the overhead..
>
> Many JOs leaving at this time(late 70's) for the airlines. Not a lot of
happy
> campers but really good pilots. I think there was more than a little SAC
> tainted guys around that saw how wierd SAC was during the SE Asia war
games.
>
> Plus some O-6s that were transitioning to the F-4 for the first time that
were
> pretty scary. A B-52 suadron CO that was going to an F-4 wing in Germany.
>
> How they chose their COs still amazes me. Wing Commander picks his COs.
When
> the Wing Commander is new all sorts of O-5s show up suddenly to rush those
> jobs.
>
> My Ops officer went across the state to a O-2 base to try to get a
squadron
> there, flying Cessna push-pulls, which were all down for shucking their
aft
> prop, taking off the tails...
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
Phlyer

[Airdale @ NC.rr.com]

On 14 Jul 2004 13:15:59 GMT, (Pechs1) proclaimed:

>It was a one for one trade, some USAF guy to the USN. Difference was I went to
>a RTU, training squadron, flew in the trunk mostly where my USAF counterpart
>was in a F-4 squadron, fleet type.

I'll have to piggy back here if that's OK.

While in the Navy in the 50s we had an USAF exchange pilot in VF-33
while aboard the Forrestal. We were flying FJ-3M which is the Navy
version of the F-86. One brilliant day in the North Atlantic our USAF
pilot had the misfortune of receiving a dead cat shot on the starboard
forward. He quickly applied full brakes while opening the canopy but
failed to retard the throttle. Plop , right off the bow. Hard port
turn by the Skipper to keep the screws off him.

A HUP flying plane guard snagged him from the sea and he promptly
requested a return to his squadron while disembarking the chopper. He
did scheduling the rest of the cruise.

[vincent p. norris]

The Air Force pilot I mentioned wore an Air Force uniform. We also
had one RAF pilot at Pensacola when I went through; he wore an RAF
uniform. So I assumed that you would be wearing a Navy uniform while
on exchange duty with the Air Force. Shoes included.

> So I wore my brown boots, dirty **** cutter or maybe my green one,
>but too many people called me a USMC pilot with that one.

Geez, the supreme compliment!

vince norris (who is obviously biased)

[Bill Kambic]

"vincent p. norris" wrote in message

> The Air Force pilot I mentioned wore an Air Force uniform. We also
> had one RAF pilot at Pensacola when I went through; he wore an RAF
> uniform. So I assumed that you would be wearing a Navy uniform while
> on exchange duty with the Air Force. Shoes included.

We had Canadian exchange officers with us my whole time in VS-27 (we had
one, CAG-56 had one). They wore their regular uniforms IAW their rules and
we never had a problem.

Except once.

I was part of det that flew into Rota a day ahead of the boat. Our Canadian
was flying one of the other aircraft. We landed, got the aircraft squared
away, and were getting into the busses. I standing with a couple of guys
from our squadron when our Canadian put on his beret. The Warrant Officer
who met us from the NAS took one look at that, got big eyes, and said, "What
the Hell are you?" When he found out he was a Canadian he said, "Get that
damn hat off and get rid of those Canadian patches! The ONLY non-Spanish
military personnel allowd on the base were U.S. If the Spaniards see you
they WILL arrest you and they don't like the British or anyone from the
Commonwealth."

So we quickly surrounded him with a "screen," stripped him of his name tag,
VS-880 patch, beret, etc. I gave him my VS-27 ballcap, somebody else came
up with a VS-27 patch, and he went sans nametag. When we signed in to the
BOQ we signed him in as a LT not a CAPT bid not specify a service. We
didn't go out on the town that night, as he would have had to show ID to get
back on the base.

The next morning we met the first boat at the fleet landing and took him
back aboard. After a rather interesting "drill" it was decided to make him
(and our other Canadian) "honorary Americans." There were outfitted with
U.S. Military IDs, uniform items, told to surrender their other documents
(like drivers licenses, etc.), etc. It worked. Nobody got arrested and no
international incidents occurred. After we departed they surrendered their
"American" identities! :-)

I understand that a certain officer on the Admiral's staff had to do a REAL
impressive "rug dance" for not knowing of the problem ahead of time. But,
since I wasn't there, I can only guess...or speculate...or dream!!!! ;-)

Bill Kambic

Mangalarga Marchador: Uma raça, uma paixão

[Pechs1]

Vince-<< So I assumed that you would be wearing a Navy uniform while
on exchange duty with the Air Force. Shoes included. >><BR><BR>

I wore something other than a flight suit once in 2 years. For the 61st Change
of command-
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Jim Carriere]

Pechs1 wrote:
> I wore something other than a flight suit once in 2 years. For the 61st Change
> of command-

So I wonder which type you are-

1) Gets dress uniform dry cleaned and pressed the day after special
occasion and hangs it up in closet, protected by garmet bag, ready
for the next time

OR

2) Checks on uniform hanging closet two days before wearing it,
knocks wrinkles out with hands, straightens ribbons and medals, then
realizes, "Aw crap, my old rank is still on the sleeve!"

:)