This one super-bugs me...

[José Herculano]

See this picture:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/624542/L/

I've never seen a picture or movie of a Tomcat doing a display without a
RIO. To my knowledge, there is nothing physical that mandates the RIO in
there for the Turkey to be flown in a demo - take off, do some aerobatics,
land...

Now, I've seen quite a few photos of operational F/A-18Fs doing demos
without the WSO.

So, what gives? Is the Tomcat such a difficult bird to fly that it requires
a RIO with a NATOPS on his lap, or is the Super-Bug so underpowered that
200lb of weight make a difference in the demo?

And if the WSO isn't there just because he is not needed, how does it affect
the morale of the WSO community?

Just curious...

José

[Mike Weeks]

>From: "José Herculano"
>Date: 7/20/2004 15:04 Pacific Daylight Time

>See this picture:
>
>http://www.airliners.net/open.file/624542/L/
>
>I've never seen a picture or movie of a Tomcat doing a display without a
>RIO. To my knowledge, there is nothing physical that mandates the RIO in
>there for the Turkey to be flown in a demo - take off, do some aerobatics,
>land...

Could be wrong, but it's my understanding that the Tom requires a RIO.

>Now, I've seen quite a few photos of operational F/A-18Fs doing demos
>without the WSO.

As did the Blue Angels with the F-4J ...

>So, what gives? Is the Tomcat such a difficult bird to fly that it requires
>a RIO with a NATOPS on his lap, or is the Super-Bug so underpowered that
>200lb of weight make a difference in the demo?
>
>And if the WSO isn't there just because he is not needed, how does it affect
>the morale of the WSO community?

Perhaps not needed it would seem for just a short demo flight by Boeing company
pilot Ricardo Traven.

MW

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 7/20/04 5:04 PM, in article ,
"José Herculano" > wrote:

> See this picture:
>
> http://www.airliners.net/open.file/624542/L/
>
> I've never seen a picture or movie of a Tomcat doing a display without a
> RIO. To my knowledge, there is nothing physical that mandates the RIO in
> there for the Turkey to be flown in a demo - take off, do some aerobatics,
> land...
>

There were systems failure emergency action procedures steps in the Tomcat
(and Intruder for that matter) that required a back (or right)-seater to
perform. Both of those aircraft are crew-served weapons systems.

> Now, I've seen quite a few photos of operational F/A-18Fs doing demos
> without the WSO.
>
> So, what gives? Is the Tomcat such a difficult bird to fly that it requires
> a RIO with a NATOPS on his lap, or is the Super-Bug so underpowered that
> 200lb of weight make a difference in the demo?
>

Could be that the 6 AMRAAMs were just too much for it...

Seriously, given that the picture was taken at Farnborough, I'd bet 50/50
that the pilot was a Boeing guy borrowing a VFA-2 jet--although I've been
wrong before.

> And if the WSO isn't there just because he is not needed, how does it affect
> the morale of the WSO community?
>

I'm sure that they're not happy (justifiably).

--Woody

[John Carrier]

> There were systems failure emergency action procedures steps in the Tomcat
> (and Intruder for that matter) that required a back (or right)-seater to
> perform. Both of those aircraft are crew-served weapons systems.

For the F-14 none that I recall, but it's been a long time. OTOH, the IFF
is back there and the post start BITS (which are a prerequisite for flight)
are initiated from the back seat.

A-6 and F-14 were designed for crew integration to a greater degree than the
F-4 (which you could fly solo). Needless to say none of the three gave the
pilot any significant control of the radar.

R / John

[Rolf Kappe]

On 20 Jul 2004 23:51:36 GMT, (Mike Weeks) wrote:

>>From: "José Herculano"
>>Date: 7/20/2004 15:04 Pacific Daylight Time
>
>>See this picture:
>>
>>http://www.airliners.net/open.file/624542/L/
>>
>>I've never seen a picture or movie of a Tomcat doing a display without a
>>RIO. To my knowledge, there is nothing physical that mandates the RIO in
>>there for the Turkey to be flown in a demo - take off, do some aerobatics,
>>land...
>
>Could be wrong, but it's my understanding that the Tom requires a RIO.
>
It has been a while, but my understanding, from a friend that used to
be a F-14 RIO, was that the controls to align the INS was in the back.
Makes it difficult to fly without one.
--Rolf

[Mike Weeks]

>From: Rolf Kappe
>Date: 7/21/2004 08:53 Pacific Daylight Time

>On 20 Jul 2004 23:51:36 GMT, (Mike Weeks) wrote:
>
>>>From: "José Herculano"
>>>Date: 7/20/2004 15:04 Pacific Daylight Time
>>
>>>See this picture:
>>>
>>>http://www.airliners.net/open.file/624542/L/
>>>
>>>I've never seen a picture or movie of a Tomcat doing a display without a
>>>RIO. To my knowledge, there is nothing physical that mandates the RIO in
>>>there for the Turkey to be flown in a demo - take off, do some aerobatics,
>>>land...
>>
>>Could be wrong, but it's my understanding that the Tom requires a RIO.
>>
>It has been a while, but my understanding, from a friend that used to
>be a F-14 RIO, was that the controls to align the INS was in the back.
>Makes it difficult to fly without one.

My understanding also came from a former F-4/F-14 RIO -- but couldn't recall
what was the requirements in the Tomcat.

MW

[Yofuri]

The only reason I recall for the Intruder was that the pilot couldn't reach
the trim breakers in case of runaway trim.

Rick

"John Carrier" > wrote in message
...
> > There were systems failure emergency action procedures steps in the
Tomcat
> > (and Intruder for that matter) that required a back (or right)-seater to
> > perform. Both of those aircraft are crew-served weapons systems.
>
> For the F-14 none that I recall, but it's been a long time. OTOH, the IFF
> is back there and the post start BITS (which are a prerequisite for
flight)
> are initiated from the back seat.
>
> A-6 and F-14 were designed for crew integration to a greater degree than
the
> F-4 (which you could fly solo). Needless to say none of the three gave
the
> pilot any significant control of the radar.
>
> R / John
>
>

[JD]

I recall that incentive rides with civies in the back aren't really
RIOs.

BTW, I recall speaking to a person from "down under" in which he works
with aircraft all day and that SH demo with stores onboard, were just
dummies - empty.

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 7/21/04 1:31 PM, in article , "Yofuri"
> wrote:

> The only reason I recall for the Intruder was that the pilot couldn't reach
> the trim breakers in case of runaway trim.
>
> Rick

For the Intruder, every time you moved a bleed air switch or the "gang bar"
the B/N had to check the Bleed Air Circuit Breaker -- IN.

--Woody

>
> "John Carrier" > wrote in message
> ...
>>> There were systems failure emergency action procedures steps in the
> Tomcat
>>> (and Intruder for that matter) that required a back (or right)-seater to
>>> perform. Both of those aircraft are crew-served weapons systems.
>>
>> For the F-14 none that I recall, but it's been a long time. OTOH, the IFF
>> is back there and the post start BITS (which are a prerequisite for
> flight)
>> are initiated from the back seat.
>>
>> A-6 and F-14 were designed for crew integration to a greater degree than
> the
>> F-4 (which you could fly solo). Needless to say none of the three gave
> the
>> pilot any significant control of the radar.
>>
>> R / John
>>
>>
>
>

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 7/21/04 5:31 AM, in article , "John
Carrier" > wrote:

>> There were systems failure emergency action procedures steps in the Tomcat
>> (and Intruder for that matter) that required a back (or right)-seater to
>> perform. Both of those aircraft are crew-served weapons systems.
>
> For the F-14 none that I recall, but it's been a long time. OTOH, the IFF
> is back there and the post start BITS (which are a prerequisite for flight)
> are initiated from the back seat.
>
> A-6 and F-14 were designed for crew integration to a greater degree than the
> F-4 (which you could fly solo). Needless to say none of the three gave the
> pilot any significant control of the radar.
>
> R / John
>
>

I stand corrected. I thought I had heard in a past life that you had the
same bleed air C/B in the back that we had on the right side (in case of
bleed air leaks or fires).

--Woody

[John Carrier]

> It has been a while, but my understanding, from a friend that used to
> be a F-14 RIO, was that the controls to align the INS was in the back.
> Makes it difficult to fly without one.

True again, forgot about that ... altzheimers? Then again, the Turkey
inertial was pretty bad, although it was required for Phoenix. For
non-mission flights, it was not essential.

R / John

[John Carrier]

> I stand corrected. I thought I had heard in a past life that you had the
> same bleed air C/B in the back that we had on the right side (in case of
> bleed air leaks or fires).

Maybe, but bleed air wasn't the source of paranoia (achieved the honest,
hard and fatal way I might add) it was in the A-6 community.

John

[Pechs1]

Jose-<< To my knowledge, there is nothing physical that mandates the RIO in
there for the Turkey to be flown in a demo - take off, do some aerobatics,
land... >><BR><BR>

Guy in the back needs to run OBC, run the ramps down and up, to be able to
safely fly the jet. I think the switch to stow the ramps mechanically is in the
trunk as well. Ya really need a RIO to fly the thing, plus somebody to borrow
money from.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Allen Epps]

In article >, John Carrier
> wrote:

> > It has been a while, but my understanding, from a friend that used to
> > be a F-14 RIO, was that the controls to align the INS was in the back.
> > Makes it difficult to fly without one.
>
> True again, forgot about that ... altzheimers? Then again, the Turkey
> inertial was pretty bad, although it was required for Phoenix. For
> non-mission flights, it was not essential.
>
> R / John
>
>
On the Prowler (ICAP II and beyond) you needed the INS for a stable
primary attitude platform. Same for the Turkey?
Pugs

[Elmshoot]

>Guy in the back needs to run OBC, run the ramps down and up, to be able
>tosafely fly the jet. I think the switch to stow the ramps mechanically is in
>thetrunk as well. Ya really need a RIO to fly the thing, plus somebody to
>borrowmoney from.P. C. ChisholmCDR, USN(ret.)

Pechs,
I thought after you got money from him you also expected him to take the ugly
one as well.... Oh ya we are talking about fighter pilots. They both take the
ugly ones!
Sparky