How to run a wing?

[Andy[_1_]]

In the more than 30 years I have been involved in gliding/soaring I
have had my wing run many times, have run other pilot’s wings, and
have taught novices to run wings for ground and aerotow launches.
At a recent national contest I saw a wing running technique that I had
never seen before. I was so concerned about the way my wing was being
handled that I stopped the launch. I was later told that the method
being used was not only common place but safer than the method I am
used to using.

The two methods are as follows:

Method 1 – Runner stands outboard of wing tip facing in the direction
of launch and holding the wing tip trailing edge with the hand nearest
the glider.

Method 2 – Runner stands close behind the wing just inboard of the
wing tip and holds the trailing edge of the wing with both hands.

Possible advantages and disadvantages of each method

For Method 1:

– Wing runner has one arm free to swing and should be able to run
faster than a person holding a wing with both hands.
– In the event of a tail wind launch the wing runner can start
slightly ahead of the wing (Note that “ahead of” does not mean “in
front of”. The wing runner in this case is still outboard of the tip)
– If wing runner falls he will not obstruct the wing.

Against Method 1:

– None known

For Method 2 (My interpretation of what I was told by those advocating
this method):

– Use of two hands makes it possible to hold a heavy wing that could
not be held up by one hand alone.
– Launch is safer because the runner is not in front of the wing.

Against Method 2 (My opinion):

– Wing runner can fall on the wing at the start of the launch risking
personal injury and potentially causing the glider to ground loop.
– A person holding onto something with 2 hands cannot run as fast as
someone with one arm free.
– If the glider is so badly out of balance that 2 hands are needed to
support the wing the launch should not be started.


What wing running technique is used where you fly and, if it is method
2, can you please explain the advantages over method 1?

Andy

[johngalloway[_2_]]

On 10 July, 22:27, Andy > wrote:
> In the more than 30 years I have been involved in gliding/soaring I
> have had my wing run many times, have run other pilot’s wings, and
> have taught novices to run wings for ground and aerotow launches.
> At a recent national contest I saw a wing running technique that I had
> never seen before. *I was so concerned about the way my wing was being
> handled that I stopped the launch. *I was later told that the method
> being used was not only common place but safer than the method I am
> used to using.
>
> The two methods are as follows:
>
> Method 1 – Runner stands outboard of wing tip facing in the direction
> of launch and holding the wing tip trailing edge with the hand nearest
> the glider.
>
> Method 2 – Runner stands close behind the wing just inboard of the
> wing tip and holds the trailing edge of the wing with both hands.
>
> Possible advantages and disadvantages of each method
>
> For Method 1:
>
> – * * Wing runner has one arm free to swing and should be able to run
> faster than a person holding a wing with both hands.
> – * * In the event of a tail wind launch the wing runner can start
> slightly ahead of the wing (Note that “ahead of” does not mean “in
> front of”. The wing runner in this case is still outboard of the tip)
> – * * If wing runner falls he will not obstruct the wing.
>
> Against Method 1:
>
> – * * None known
>
> For Method 2 (My interpretation of what I was told by those advocating
> this method):
>
> – * * Use of two hands makes it possible to hold a heavy wing that could
> not be held up by one hand alone.
> – * * Launch is safer because the runner is not in front of the wing.
>
> Against Method 2 (My opinion):
>
> – * * Wing runner can fall on the wing at the start of the launch risking
> personal injury and potentially causing the glider to ground loop.
> – * * A person holding onto something with 2 hands cannot run as fast as
> someone with one arm free.
> – * * If the glider is so badly out of balance that 2 hands are needed to
> support the wing the launch should not be started.
>
> What wing running technique is used where you fly and, if it is method
> 2, can you please explain the advantages over method 1?
>
> Andy

I am impressed that you present a reasoned discussion - I would just
think method 2 is nuts and would decline to be launched that way.

John Galloway

[Jim Logajan]

Andy > wrote:
> In the more than 30 years I have been involved in gliding/soaring I
> have had my wing run many times, have run other pilot’s wings, and
> have taught novices to run wings for ground and aerotow launches.
> At a recent national contest I saw a wing running technique that I had
> never seen before. I was so concerned about the way my wing was being
> handled that I stopped the launch. I was later told that the method
> being used was not only common place but safer than the method I am
> used to using.

As PIC, I presume it is exclusively your choice.

> The two methods are as follows:
>
> Method 1 – Runner stands outboard of wing tip facing in the direction
> of launch and holding the wing tip trailing edge with the hand nearest
> the glider.
>
> Method 2 – Runner stands close behind the wing just inboard of the
> wing tip and holds the trailing edge of the wing with both hands.

Not a problem on a high wing (much) like a SGS 2-33, but wouldn't some
gliders require a stance like that used in pushing a wheel barrow?
(I've been told not to run with wheelbarrows or scissors.)

Method 3 - Runner lifts glider over head and heaves it upward into the
nearest thermal.

Advantage of method 3 is no tow or winch is needed. Invite Hercules or
Atlas to your next glider launch.

[bildan]

On Jul 10, 3:27*pm, Andy > wrote:
> In the more than 30 years I have been involved in gliding/soaring I
> have had my wing run many times, have run other pilot’s wings, and
> have taught novices to run wings for ground and aerotow launches.
> At a recent national contest I saw a wing running technique that I had
> never seen before. *I was so concerned about the way my wing was being
> handled that I stopped the launch. *I was later told that the method
> being used was not only common place but safer than the method I am
> used to using.
>
> The two methods are as follows:
>
> Method 1 – Runner stands outboard of wing tip facing in the direction
> of launch and holding the wing tip trailing edge with the hand nearest
> the glider.
>
> Method 2 – Runner stands close behind the wing just inboard of the
> wing tip and holds the trailing edge of the wing with both hands.
>
> Possible advantages and disadvantages of each method
>
> For Method 1:
>
> – * * Wing runner has one arm free to swing and should be able to run
> faster than a person holding a wing with both hands.
> – * * In the event of a tail wind launch the wing runner can start
> slightly ahead of the wing (Note that “ahead of” does not mean “in
> front of”. The wing runner in this case is still outboard of the tip)
> – * * If wing runner falls he will not obstruct the wing.
>
> Against Method 1:
>
> – * * None known
>
> For Method 2 (My interpretation of what I was told by those advocating
> this method):
>
> – * * Use of two hands makes it possible to hold a heavy wing that could
> not be held up by one hand alone.
> – * * Launch is safer because the runner is not in front of the wing.
>
> Against Method 2 (My opinion):
>
> – * * Wing runner can fall on the wing at the start of the launch risking
> personal injury and potentially causing the glider to ground loop.
> – * * A person holding onto something with 2 hands cannot run as fast as
> someone with one arm free.
> – * * If the glider is so badly out of balance that 2 hands are needed to
> support the wing the launch should not be started.
>
> What wing running technique is used where you fly and, if it is method
> 2, can you please explain the advantages over method 1?
>
> Andy

Hold up a heavy wing??? The wing runner is supposed to balance the
wing so there would be no weight hold up if they're doing it right.
There is no reason a runner in method 1 should be in front of the
wing.

I would only add that the pilot should hold neutral aileron so he's
not fighting the runner.

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 14:27:16 -0700, Andy wrote:

>
> What wing running technique is used where you fly and, if it is method
> 2, can you please explain the advantages over method 1?
>
I have never seen method 2 used. It should go without saying that I was
taught method 1 and have used it on heavy gliders up to and including an
ASH-25.

I agree with John Galloway that the weight of the wing should be reason
for aborting the launch rather than using two hands and would add another
reason for not launching as well as a heavy (out of balance) wing: that
is a cross-wind strong enough to make the wing that heavy is probably in
excess of the glider's cross-wind launch limit.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[John Cochrane]

>
> 16 is being assisted by method 2 and in this case one hand is on top
> of the wing and the other underneath it. *I don't see how that helps
> with the heavy wing but that is reason I was given for the method.
>
> Andy

Method 3. Pick up the wing and slosh the water through the baffles
until there is NO weight. The pilot should centralize the controls so
not as to fight the wingrunner by the way. Hold the back of the
winglet with the inside hand. Applying no pressure get ready to really
run like hell. Too many wing runners think we're launching KA6s at sea
level, not massively over-watered gliders at high altitudes, hot
temperatures and all too often downwind.

Method 2 might make sense if the glider has an extreme amount of
dihedral. I haven't run that particular variant of discus 2, is the
wingtip too high? It's the onlyl excuse I can see.

Too many contest launches end up with scraped wingtips. I know there
were some experiments with ATVs that didn't work out. Maybe it's time
for droppable pogo sticks or similar.

John Cochrane

[Mike Schumann]

On 7/10/2010 4:27 PM, Andy wrote:
> In the more than 30 years I have been involved in gliding/soaring I
> have had my wing run many times, have run other pilot’s wings, and
> have taught novices to run wings for ground and aerotow launches.
> At a recent national contest I saw a wing running technique that I had
> never seen before. I was so concerned about the way my wing was being
> handled that I stopped the launch. I was later told that the method
> being used was not only common place but safer than the method I am
> used to using.
>
> The two methods are as follows:
>
> Method 1 – Runner stands outboard of wing tip facing in the direction
> of launch and holding the wing tip trailing edge with the hand nearest
> the glider.
>
> Method 2 – Runner stands close behind the wing just inboard of the
> wing tip and holds the trailing edge of the wing with both hands.
>
> Possible advantages and disadvantages of each method
>
> For Method 1:
>
> – Wing runner has one arm free to swing and should be able to run
> faster than a person holding a wing with both hands.
> – In the event of a tail wind launch the wing runner can start
> slightly ahead of the wing (Note that “ahead of” does not mean “in
> front of”. The wing runner in this case is still outboard of the tip)
> – If wing runner falls he will not obstruct the wing.
>
> Against Method 1:
>
> – None known
>
> For Method 2 (My interpretation of what I was told by those advocating
> this method):
>
> – Use of two hands makes it possible to hold a heavy wing that could
> not be held up by one hand alone.
> – Launch is safer because the runner is not in front of the wing.
>
> Against Method 2 (My opinion):
>
> – Wing runner can fall on the wing at the start of the launch risking
> personal injury and potentially causing the glider to ground loop.
> – A person holding onto something with 2 hands cannot run as fast as
> someone with one arm free.
> – If the glider is so badly out of balance that 2 hands are needed to
> support the wing the launch should not be started.
>
>
> What wing running technique is used where you fly and, if it is method
> 2, can you please explain the advantages over method 1?
>
> Andy

How can the wing runner signal take up slack and launch if he doesn't
have a free hand? That's just as important as holding the wings level.

--
Mike Schumann

[Andy[_10_]]

On Jul 10, 4:34*pm, Mike Schumann >
wrote:
> On 7/10/2010 4:27 PM, Andy wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In the more than 30 years I have been involved in gliding/soaring I
> > have had my wing run many times, have run other pilot’s wings, and
> > have taught novices to run wings for ground and aerotow launches.
> > At a recent national contest I saw a wing running technique that I had
> > never seen before. *I was so concerned about the way my wing was being
> > handled that I stopped the launch. *I was later told that the method
> > being used was not only common place but safer than the method I am
> > used to using.
>
> > The two methods are as follows:
>
> > Method 1 – Runner stands outboard of wing tip facing in the direction
> > of launch and holding the wing tip trailing edge with the hand nearest
> > the glider.
>
> > Method 2 – Runner stands close behind the wing just inboard of the
> > wing tip and holds the trailing edge of the wing with both hands.
>
> > Possible advantages and disadvantages of each method
>
> > For Method 1:
>
> > – * * * *Wing runner has one arm free to swing and should be able to run
> > faster than a person holding a wing with both hands.
> > – * * * *In the event of a tail wind launch the wing runner can start
> > slightly ahead of the wing (Note that “ahead of” does not mean “in
> > front of”. The wing runner in this case is still outboard of the tip)
> > – * * * *If wing runner falls he will not obstruct the wing.
>
> > Against Method 1:
>
> > – * * * *None known
>
> > For Method 2 (My interpretation of what I was told by those advocating
> > this method):
>
> > – * * * *Use of two hands makes it possible to hold a heavy wing that could
> > not be held up by one hand alone.
> > – * * * *Launch is safer because the runner is not in front of the wing.
>
> > Against Method 2 (My opinion):
>
> > – * * * *Wing runner can fall on the wing at the start of the launch risking
> > personal injury and potentially causing the glider to ground loop.
> > – * * * *A person holding onto something with 2 hands cannot run as fast as
> > someone with one arm free.
> > – * * * *If the glider is so badly out of balance that 2 hands are needed to
> > support the wing the launch should not be started.
>
> > What wing running technique is used where you fly and, if it is method
> > 2, can you please explain the advantages over method 1?
>
> > Andy
>

Even if it were a good idea to hold up a heavy wing Method 2 would be
a terrible way to do it - the mechanics are all wrong. Someone may
have been concerned with a wing runner grasping the tip and holding it
back rather than letting it slip from his/her hands as the glider
accelerates, but the best idea is to train in Method 1 properly.

The big disadvantages I see with Method 2 are: 1) the runner has very
little room to absorb a slingshot start if the towplane surges forward
and, 2) any misstep will put the runner's face on top of the wing
trailing edge with the expected bad outcome.

The best technique I know is with the wing runner next to the wing
lightly grasping the trailing edge of the tip applying as little
pressure as possible.

9B

[Andy[_1_]]

On Jul 10, 4:34*pm, Mike Schumann >
wrote:

>
> How can the wing runner signal take up slack and launch if he doesn't
> have a free hand? *That's just as important as holding the wings level.


For US contest launches it is common for the signaler to be a separate
person from the wing runner.

Andy

[betwys1]

On 7/10/2010 5:45 PM, John Cochrane wrote:

> Too many contest launches end up with scraped wingtips. I know there
> were some experiments with ATVs that didn't work out. Maybe it's time
> for droppable pogo sticks or similar.
>
> John Cochrane

Cannot help but recall from the long ago, that the Fournier RF-4 self
launch had one main, one tailwheel and two wing tip out-riggers which
looked like curved 24 inch long 1/4 inch diameter rods with a roller
skate wheel at the end. They couldn't take much force, and evidently
didn't need to....

Brian W

[Frank Whiteley]

On Jul 10, 3:27*pm, Andy > wrote:
> In the more than 30 years I have been involved in gliding/soaring I
> have had my wing run many times, have run other pilot’s wings, and
> have taught novices to run wings for ground and aerotow launches.
> At a recent national contest I saw a wing running technique that I had
> never seen before. *I was so concerned about the way my wing was being
> handled that I stopped the launch. *I was later told that the method
> being used was not only common place but safer than the method I am
> used to using.
>
> The two methods are as follows:
>
> Method 1 – Runner stands outboard of wing tip facing in the direction
> of launch and holding the wing tip trailing edge with the hand nearest
> the glider.
>
> Method 2 – Runner stands close behind the wing just inboard of the
> wing tip and holds the trailing edge of the wing with both hands.
>
> Possible advantages and disadvantages of each method
>
> For Method 1:
>
> – * * Wing runner has one arm free to swing and should be able to run
> faster than a person holding a wing with both hands.
> – * * In the event of a tail wind launch the wing runner can start
> slightly ahead of the wing (Note that “ahead of” does not mean “in
> front of”. The wing runner in this case is still outboard of the tip)
> – * * If wing runner falls he will not obstruct the wing.
>
> Against Method 1:
>
> – * * None known
>
> For Method 2 (My interpretation of what I was told by those advocating
> this method):
>
> – * * Use of two hands makes it possible to hold a heavy wing that could
> not be held up by one hand alone.
> – * * Launch is safer because the runner is not in front of the wing.
>
> Against Method 2 (My opinion):
>
> – * * Wing runner can fall on the wing at the start of the launch risking
> personal injury and potentially causing the glider to ground loop.
> – * * A person holding onto something with 2 hands cannot run as fast as
> someone with one arm free.
> – * * If the glider is so badly out of balance that 2 hands are needed to
> support the wing the launch should not be started.
>
> What wing running technique is used where you fly and, if it is method
> 2, can you please explain the advantages over method 1?
>
> Andy

http://www.soaringsafety.org/school/wingrunner/toc.htm

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Greg Arnold" > wrote >>

> He is holding on to the aileron?

The previous post before yours said the following:

- - -"16 is being assisted by method 2 and in this case one hand is on top
of the wing and the other underneath it."- - -

So it sounds like the hands are in front of the aileron. I would think that
the chances for damaging the aileron if the runner slipped would be at least
possible. Also, fears of damaging fabric (or other coverings) between the
ribs.

The only reasons for such a method (that I can think of) would be: 1) if a
wing tip was difficult to get a grip on, or: 2) if the wingtip was fragile
enough to risk damage to it by exerting pressure while holding onto the
wingtip.

The first justification could be possible (my guess only) but unlikely for
most wingtips. The second case I presented (I would think) would be very
highly unlikely, since most tips are strong enough to take ground strikes
during landing operations.

> I think someone who knows nothing about wing running made up his own
> method.

Sounds likely. The biggest argument I can think of is the normal courtesy
of how others handle a persons aircraft. That is, the owner gets to decide
how others handle his aircraft. That would mean you should have the final
say of which method is used to launch, and don't permit a launch to occur if
your wishes are not granted.

Kinda' mean, I guess, but what the hell. There is too much at risk to not
insist on your way. (or the highway) <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Bruce Hoult]

On Jul 11, 10:45*am, John Cochrane >
wrote:
> Method 3. Pick up the wing and slosh the water through the baffles
> until there is NO weight.

I agree there should be no weight. If the wing runner is fighting
against either an upwards or downwards force then when they eventually
let go the wing is going to slam up or down with little time for the
pilot to react.


>The pilot should centralize the controls so
> not as to fight the wingrunner by the way.

I disagree. Depending on conditions, the pilot might need a
substantial amount of aileron in one direction of the other to keep
the forces neutral.

If I feel pressure on the wingtip while the slack is being taken up
then I allow the tip to go markedly high or low until the pilot
notices the glider is not level and applies the appropriate aileron.


> Applying no pressure get ready to really run like hell. Too many wing
> runners think we're launching KA6s at sea
> level, not massively over-watered gliders at high altitudes, hot
> temperatures and all too often downwind.

I seldom take more than one or two steps. It's not necessary to run if
the glider is in balance to start with. I don't remember the last time
anyone touched a wingtip while being launched by me. Certainly it was
years ago.

Admittedly I don't recall flying from a truly high altitude runway,
but we do operate from a farm topdressing airstrip at 2000 ft for a
week in February every year, often with downwind takeoffs, and it's
often well over 30 C.

Said strip is visible here, near the bottom left of the first photo,
with some cars and trailers on it:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4015/4317824717_63bd1bfc4d_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4062/4317687126_8e4f76ddcc_b.jpg

[bildan]

On Jul 11, 3:01*am, Bruce Hoult > wrote:

> >The pilot should centralize the controls so
> > not as to fight the wingrunner by the way.
>
> I disagree. Depending on conditions, the pilot might need a
> substantial amount of aileron in one direction of the other to keep
> the forces neutral.

Think about this a little more.

If the wing runner is holding up or down force on the wing tip, how
could you tell that from a lateral imbalance or crosswind effect?
Until the wing runner lets go, all the pilot can do with ailerons is
fight the wing runner since there is no way to tell what aileron input
is required.

If the wing runner balances the glider, that's exactly the bank angle
you want regardless of lateral weight imbalance or crosswind. But the
wing runner can only do that if the pilot centralizes the stick.

If you balance a glider then let go, it will take several seconds for
the wing tip to fall - more than enough time for the glider to
accelerate to aileron control speed so why the heck are you guys
dragging wing tips? Maybe because you're starting the takeoff roll
with lots of unnecessary aileron input?

It works like this. Pilot centralizes the ailerons and the wing
runner runs the wing at whatever bank angle is required to achieve
lateral balance. Pilots start stick wiggling only after the wing
runner lets go. Seriously, try it once and see if it doesn't work
MUCH better.

[John Cochrane]

On Jul 11, 2:55*pm, bildan > wrote:
> On Jul 11, 3:01*am, Bruce Hoult > wrote:
>
> > >The pilot should centralize the controls so
> > > not as to fight the wingrunner by the way.
>
> > I disagree. Depending on conditions, the pilot might need a
> > substantial amount of aileron in one direction of the other to keep
> > the forces neutral.
>
> Think about this a little more.
>
> If the wing runner is holding up or down force on the wing tip, how
> could you tell that from a lateral imbalance or crosswind effect?
> Until the wing runner lets go, all the pilot can do with ailerons is
> fight the wing runner since there is no way to tell what aileron input
> is required.
....
> It works like this. *Pilot centralizes the ailerons and the wing
> runner runs the wing at whatever bank angle is required to achieve
> lateral balance. *Pilots start stick wiggling only after the wing
> runner lets go. *Seriously, try it once and see if it doesn't work
> MUCH better.

This was my point exactly. As pilot you can't tell what aileron is
needed so long as someone is holding the wing. So don't make his life
harder with aileron inputs. If he gets the wing to a zero-force
point, you're in great shape even if the wings aren't level.

As wingrunner I sometimes face a problem of a pilot with big stick
inputs. I can sometimes wake up the pilot by raising or lowering the
wing in the direction he wants. Lowering a heavy wing makes the pilot
eliminate the aileron input and can produce better balance than
raising it!

To the previous post advocating only a few steps, don't try it full of
waterballast, downwind, hot, slow towplanes, at high altitude like
Parowan or Tonopah. Sitting at the back of the grid watching one wing
after another scrape down the runway with two-step runs is just sad.

John Cochrane

[bildan]

On Jul 11, 2:13*pm, John Cochrane >
wrote:

> Parowan or Tonopah. Sitting at the back of the grid watching one wing
> after another scrape down the runway with two-step runs is just sad.
>
> John Cochrane

There's potentially another reason this happens.

If there's a crosswind, the tug's prop blast will drift downwind to
hit the glider's downwind wing causing it to rise sharply. If the
pilot is holding into-the-wind aileron, as most flight training
materials advise, the wake encounter will slap the upwind wing to the
runway. Gliders hit the prop blast after rolling about half the
length of the tow rope.

Just knowing it will happen and being ready to react is usually enough
to prevent a wing drop.

[Derek C]

On Jul 10, 10:27*pm, Andy > wrote:
> In the more than 30 years I have been involved in gliding/soaring I
> have had my wing run many times, have run other pilot’s wings, and
> have taught novices to run wings for ground and aerotow launches.
> At a recent national contest I saw a wing running technique that I had
> never seen before. *I was so concerned about the way my wing was being
> handled that I stopped the launch. *I was later told that the method
> being used was not only common place but safer than the method I am
> used to using.
>
> The two methods are as follows:
>
> Method 1 – Runner stands outboard of wing tip facing in the direction
> of launch and holding the wing tip trailing edge with the hand nearest
> the glider.
>
> Method 2 – Runner stands close behind the wing just inboard of the
> wing tip and holds the trailing edge of the wing with both hands.
>
> Possible advantages and disadvantages of each method
>
> For Method 1:
>
> – * * Wing runner has one arm free to swing and should be able to run
> faster than a person holding a wing with both hands.
> – * * In the event of a tail wind launch the wing runner can start
> slightly ahead of the wing (Note that “ahead of” does not mean “in
> front of”. The wing runner in this case is still outboard of the tip)
> – * * If wing runner falls he will not obstruct the wing.
>
> Against Method 1:
>
> – * * None known
>
> For Method 2 (My interpretation of what I was told by those advocating
> this method):
>
> – * * Use of two hands makes it possible to hold a heavy wing that could
> not be held up by one hand alone.
> – * * Launch is safer because the runner is not in front of the wing.
>
> Against Method 2 (My opinion):
>
> – * * Wing runner can fall on the wing at the start of the launch risking
> personal injury and potentially causing the glider to ground loop.
> – * * A person holding onto something with 2 hands cannot run as fast as
> someone with one arm free.
> – * * If the glider is so badly out of balance that 2 hands are needed to
> support the wing the launch should not be started.
>
> What wing running technique is used where you fly and, if it is method
> 2, can you please explain the advantages over method 1?
>
> Andy

I personally hold either the wingtip or the trailing edge, depending
on where the aileron cutout is, between the thumb and finger of one
hand at arm's length, and let go as soon as I can't run any faster.

There are some risks to the wing tip runner. On one occasion I nearly
lost a little finger when it got trapped in the aileron gap of a
Slingsby T21, a vintage type where the ailerons extend right out to
the wing tip. I only just managed to pull it out in time and it ached
for a week afterwards. I know of another case where a lady actually
lost a finger when her wedding ring snagged on a skid plate. A kind
farmer with a small airstrip offered to run my wing for an aerotow
retrieve: Unfortunately he tripped on a piece of uneven ground and
went base over apex pulling my wing back down onto the ground as he
did so. Fortunately there were no injuries to either party.

Derek C

[Bart[_4_]]

On Jul 11, 2:01*am, Bruce Hoult > wrote:
> I disagree. Depending on conditions, the pilot might need a
> substantial amount of aileron in one direction of the other to keep
> the forces neutral.
>
> If I feel pressure on the wingtip while the slack is being taken up
> then I allow the tip to go markedly high or low until the pilot
> notices the glider is not level and applies the appropriate aileron.

That's what I like as a pilot, and that's how I will run a wing,
unless the glider pilot requests a different technique.

B.

[bildan]

On Jul 12, 10:30*am, Bart > wrote:
> On Jul 11, 2:01*am, Bruce Hoult > wrote:
>
> > I disagree. Depending on conditions, the pilot might need a
> > substantial amount of aileron in one direction of the other to keep
> > the forces neutral.
>
> > If I feel pressure on the wingtip while the slack is being taken up
> > then I allow the tip to go markedly high or low until the pilot
> > notices the glider is not level and applies the appropriate aileron.
>
> That's what I like as a pilot, and that's how I will run a wing,
> unless the glider pilot requests a different technique.
>
> B.

I observed this example.

The pilot was holding full left aileron against a very light (2 - 3
Kt.) left crosswind component making the tip very heavy. The wing
runner, on the left wing, allowed the wing to go to the ground
whereupon the pilot jerked his thumb up indicating he wanted the wing
raised all the while still holding full left aileron.

The wing runner did his best but when the wing was released, it
slammed down and the glider ground looped. The pilot jumped out and
ran back demanding to know why the wing runner didn't know his job.

The group of observers tried to tell the pilot it was his fault for
holding left aileron but he insisted that was the right thing to do
and it wasn't his fault. He had a very hard time finding willing wing
runners after that.

My take home: If I were the pilot, I'd center the stick and let the
wing runner do the job right. If I were the runner, I'd just put the
wing down and walk away.

[Bart[_4_]]

On Jul 12, 10:05*am, bildan > wrote:
> Kt.) left crosswind component making the tip very heavy. *The wing
> runner, on the left wing, allowed the wing to go to the ground
> whereupon the pilot jerked his thumb up indicating he wanted the wing
> raised all the while still holding full left aileron.

This happened before the launch, right?

B.

[[email protected]]

Don't we usually wait until the off season for this kind of thread?
The weather must be bad this year

Q: How to run a wing

A: Read the SSA wing runner guide!

aerodyne

[bildan]

On Jul 12, 11:31*am, Bart > wrote:
> On Jul 12, 10:05*am, bildan > wrote:
>
> > Kt.) left crosswind component making the tip very heavy. *The wing
> > runner, on the left wing, allowed the wing to go to the ground
> > whereupon the pilot jerked his thumb up indicating he wanted the wing
> > raised all the while still holding full left aileron.
>
> This happened before the launch, right?
>
> B.

Right. Before the takeoff roll began.

[bildan]

On Jul 12, 1:16*pm, wrote:
> Don't we usually wait until the off season for this kind of thread?
> The weather must be bad this year
>
> Q: *How to run a wing
>
> A: *Read the SSA wing runner guide!
>
> aerodyne

Why? You guys smash gliders in the summer, not winter.

The SSF wing runner guide doesn't address any of this.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jul 12, 1:32*pm, bildan > wrote:
> On Jul 12, 1:16*pm, wrote:
>
> > Don't we usually wait until the off season for this kind of thread?
> > The weather must be bad this year
>
> > Q: *How to run a wing
>
> > A: *Read the SSA wing runner guide!
>
> > aerodyne
>
> Why? *You guys smash gliders in the summer, not winter.
>
> The SSF wing runner guide doesn't address any of this.

I agree the SSF course could add more material, on how to hold the
wingtip etc. But the course *does* address some of the things
discussed here...

e.g.

The short video shows a one hand hold and spare arm being used for the
"Begin Takeoff" signal.

"Release the wing as soon as the glider is capable of maintaining
wings level. In a strong headwind, this may occur in a few short
steps. The opposite is true when launching with a tailwind. The wing
runner must be prepared to run fast for a longer distance. The same
will be true when the glider is operating at an increased weight due
to the addition of water ballast in its wings. In this case, the pilot
will not have sufficient aileron control to maintain a wings level
attitude until the glider achieves a slightly higher speed."

(i.e. a few piddly steps is not going to always cut it, I don't care
what people "usually do". If you are not prepared to and able to run
fast with my wingtip (heavy motorglider) you should not be out in the
launch area. And folks wearing flip flops and sandals... go put on
some running shoes.).

and...

"Often the glider pilot will inadvertently hold some non-neutral
aileron position during the initial ground roll. If the wing runner
continues to hold the wing level against the resulting wingtip
pressure, the glider will tend to drop a wing as soon as it is
released. Instead, yield to the wingtip pressure and permit the wing
to rise or fall slightly in accordance with the pressure. The glider
pilot will then instinctively remove the inadvertent aileron control
input."

---

The course also includes animation of both the wing runner and
signalman issuing the same signals. I think it is important the wing
runner keeps a hand free and where possible issues the same signals as
the signalman. And in the worse case can maybe more quickly start
signaling an abort while also putting the wing down than if holding
with both hands -- and if holding with both hands maybe people just
don't expect to see the wing person signaling -- but they are an
important part of the loop and may see a problem nobody else sees. To
the whole issue with holding on with two hands -- who can possibly
balance well and run fast that way? Even if you usually launch short
wingspan lightly loaded gliders with a headwind what about other
situations? You can't design a system that will work OK except when it
is really needed. The two handed hold and fall flat on your face idea
would be laughable, except it will get people hurt (wing runners and
pilots/passengers).

By far the biggest peeve I have with wing runners are folks that pick
up the wingtip when the PIC is not ready. Leave the wingtip on the
ground until I am looking at you and you have my thumbs up. If the
wingtip is in the air it's much easier for the tow pilot to mistake
something else (the rudder waggling accidentally on the glider behind
etc.) and start a take-off. Luckily where I fly most of the time
thumbs up before the wing runner picks up the wing is strict SOP.

Darryl

[Andy[_1_]]

On Jul 12, 2:09*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:

> By far the biggest peeve I have with wing runners are folks that pick
> up the wingtip when the PIC is not ready. Leave the wingtip on the
> ground until I am looking at you and you have my thumbs up. If the
> wingtip is in the air it's much easier for the tow pilot to mistake
> something else (the rudder waggling accidentally on the glider behind
> etc.) and start a take-off. Luckily where I fly most of the time
> thumbs up before the wing runner picks up the wing is strict SOP.


Exactly the opposite of what I want/need.

With water ballast I wait at the launch point with my wing wheel on.
It is only to be removed when someone has the time to hold my wings
level until I launch.

Some gliders, including my 28 will vent water if a wing is low. Some,
including my 28, are well baffled and take nearly half a minute to
become balanced with a partial ballast load if a wing was held low.

Andy (GY)

[Bart[_4_]]

On Jul 12, 1:29*pm, bildan > wrote:
> > > runner, on the left wing, allowed the wing to go to the ground
> > > whereupon the pilot jerked his thumb up indicating he wanted the wing
> > > raised all the while still holding full left aileron.
> > This happened before the launch, right?
> Right. *Before the takeoff roll began.

Well, had it been me holding the wing, I would have kept it level and
started lowering it as soon as the glider started moving. I cannot
imagine a qualified pilot not reacting with a proper stick movement.

B.

[Ron Gleason]

On Jul 12, 4:00*pm, Andy > wrote:
> On Jul 12, 2:09*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
>
> > By far the biggest peeve I have with wing runners are folks that pick
> > up the wingtip when the PIC is not ready. Leave the wingtip on the
> > ground until I am looking at you and you have my thumbs up. If the
> > wingtip is in the air it's much easier for the tow pilot to mistake
> > something else (the rudder waggling accidentally on the glider behind
> > etc.) and start a take-off. Luckily where I fly most of the time
> > thumbs up before the wing runner picks up the wing is strict SOP.
>
> Exactly the opposite of what I want/need.
>
> With water ballast I wait at the launch point with my wing wheel on.
> It is only to be removed when someone has the time to hold my wings
> level until I launch.
>
> Some gliders, including my 28 will vent water if a wing is low. Some,
> including my 28, are well baffled and take nearly half a minute to
> become balanced with a partial ballast load if a wing was held low.
>
> Andy (GY)

Glad too see that the water issue is being addressed. Wings needs to
be level as much as possible when water is aboard.

On holding the winglet, I was taught (when assisting at my first
contest) NEVER to hold by the winglet. Some of them are just taped on
and require no security pin or screw. I believe that ASW 27's are the
best example.

if in doubt stop and ask the PIC. As a further safety measure I
remove all rings and watches.

Amazing how the simple things can go wrong very quickly

Ron

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jul 12, 3:16*pm, Ron Gleason > wrote:
> On Jul 12, 4:00*pm, Andy > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 12, 2:09*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
>
> > > By far the biggest peeve I have with wing runners are folks that pick
> > > up the wingtip when the PIC is not ready. Leave the wingtip on the
> > > ground until I am looking at you and you have my thumbs up. If the
> > > wingtip is in the air it's much easier for the tow pilot to mistake
> > > something else (the rudder waggling accidentally on the glider behind
> > > etc.) and start a take-off. Luckily where I fly most of the time
> > > thumbs up before the wing runner picks up the wing is strict SOP.
>
> > Exactly the opposite of what I want/need.
>
> > With water ballast I wait at the launch point with my wing wheel on.
> > It is only to be removed when someone has the time to hold my wings
> > level until I launch.
>
> > Some gliders, including my 28 will vent water if a wing is low. Some,
> > including my 28, are well baffled and take nearly half a minute to
> > become balanced with a partial ballast load if a wing was held low.
>
> > Andy (GY)
>
> Glad too see that the water issue is being addressed. *Wings needs to
> be level as much as possible when water is aboard.
>
> On holding the winglet, I was taught (when assisting at my first
> contest) NEVER to hold by the winglet. *Some of them are just taped on
> and require no security pin or screw. *I believe that ASW 27's are the
> best example.
>
> if in doubt stop and ask the PIC. *As a further safety measure I
> remove all rings and watches.
>
> Amazing how the simple things can go wrong very quickly
>
> Ron

yep I am aware of some gliders esp. Schleichers with wet wings leaking
from a low wing. They obviously need to be handled with the wings
level. But this is really a flaw. For the rest of us a SOP that keeps
the wingtip on the ground before the PIC is ready to takeoff adds to
safety.

Darryl

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 7/12/2010 4:27 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
<Snip...>
>>
>>> Some gliders, including my 28 will vent water if a wing is low. Some,
>>> including my 28, are well baffled and take nearly half a minute to
>>> become balanced with a partial ballast load if a wing was held low.
>>
>>> Andy (GY)
>>
>> Glad too see that the water issue is being addressed. Wings needs to
>> be level as much as possible when water is aboard.
>>
>> On holding the winglet, I was taught (when assisting at my first
>> contest) NEVER to hold by the winglet. Some of them are just taped on
>> and require no security pin or screw. I believe that ASW 27's are the
>> best example.
>>
>> if in doubt stop and ask the PIC. As a further safety measure I
>> remove all rings and watches.
>>
>> Amazing how the simple things can go wrong very quickly
>>
>> Ron
>
> yep I am aware of some gliders esp. Schleichers with wet wings leaking
> from a low wing. They obviously need to be handled with the wings
> level. But this is really a flaw. For the rest of us a SOP that keeps
> the wingtip on the ground before the PIC is ready to takeoff adds to
> safety.
>
> Darryl
'Opefully, any relatively newbies reading this thread will by now have
(correctly) concluded 'the devil is in the details!' when it comes to
'proper wing-running.'

There IS no panacea method that will 'absolutely work' with all gliders,
water-ballast-configurations, tow-pilots/planes, etc.

To illustrate, leaving a wing low in a ship with internally-baffled
tanks (e.g. my Zuni, most Schempp-Hirths?, etc.) and partial ballast
*will* result in an 'extended need' to 'fuss about with the wings' while
achieving left/right weight balance...even more time than for a ship
with partially-filled bags. An experienced/informed wing runner can
shorten (but not eliminate) the time, but he needs both other team
members (i.e. tuggie, glider pilot) to be switched on. If tuggie isn't,
and mistakenly adds power before receiving the proper signal(s) from the
glider end, then it's up to the glider pilot to release, because there's
darned little the wing-runner can do to ameliorate the situation at that
point.

As for 'the silver bullet' in wing-tip-holding-methodology, I've (for
many years now) asked my runners to let the wing rest on their flat
palm, give me the best run they can, and let the tug pull the wing
ahead/away from their open palm...no risk of a(n accidentally held-back)
run; eliminates any winglet issues; never flown (or encountered) a
glider with a downstream protuberance that could hang on anyone's hand
(though I've little doubt one - somewhere - exists!).

I've also long begun my rolls with neutral aileron (or as neutral as I
can estimate with a side-stick)...haven't dragged a tip in decades. For
what it's worth, my ballasted takeoff (15-meter ship) experience has
been that the added inertia more than outweighs feeble low-speed aileron
control, presuming lateral balance at the start, headed into the wind, &
180 HP Super Cub or better power available at 5,000'+ ground elevations
in the intermountain western U.S.

I eventually settled upon 'not fighting the glider guider' when it comes
to how - as a wing-runner - I deal with non-neutral aileron. If Joe
Glider Pilot is trying to drive the tip I'm running into the ground, I
let Mr. Relative Wind 'do his thing.' If JGP continues to drive the tip
downward, I make sure I get my hand out of the way sooner, rather than
later. ("Sayonara, Dude; have a nice takeoff roll!" Aiding my choice
over the years was an ever-less-flexible lower spine, ha ha!) Likewise,
I don't pretend to be an NBA center if JGP tries to drive the non-run
wingtip into the ground.

Bob - never initiated anyone else's groundloop - W.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Jul 13, 9:09*am, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> "Often the glider pilot will inadvertently hold some non-neutral
> aileron position during the initial ground roll. If the wing runner
> continues to hold the wing level against the resulting wingtip
> pressure, the glider will tend to drop a wing as soon as it is
> released. Instead, yield to the wingtip pressure and permit the wing
> to rise or fall slightly in accordance with the pressure. The glider
> pilot will then instinctively remove the inadvertent aileron control
> input."

Not being in the USA I hadn't seen this document, but that is
precisely what I do myself and encourage others to do, as mentioned in
my post which is the great great great great grandfather of your post.

If a pilot fails to take note of the non-level wings then gently
waggling the aileron tends to get their attention.

No doubt someone will say "but but .. you can damage my aircraft!" so
I'll ask you now: do you do positive control checks?


> By far the biggest peeve I have with wing runners are folks that pick
> up the wingtip when the PIC is not ready. Leave the wingtip on the
> ground until I am looking at you and you have my thumbs up. If the
> wingtip is in the air it's much easier for the tow pilot to mistake
> something else (the rudder waggling accidentally on the glider behind
> etc.) and start a take-off. Luckily where I fly most of the time
> thumbs up before the wing runner picks up the wing is strict SOP.

This I disagree with. Around here, if you have accepted the tow rope
then you are by definition ready to launch. If you become not-ready
then you release the rope.

As a practical matter, with the typical skeleton ground crew where 1
guy attaches the rope, signals the towplane, runs the wing, and notes
the takeoff time on a clipboard, it is not physically possible to pick
up the wingtip until after the rope is attached. There's an obvious
exception of guys full of water with a wing wheel, but accepting the
rope remains the primary "I am ready for launch" signal from the
pilot.

[Derek C]

On Jul 13, 12:31*am, Bob Whelan > wrote:

>>
> As for 'the silver bullet' in wing-tip-holding-methodology, I've (for
> many years now) asked my runners to let the wing rest on their flat
> palm, give me the best run they can, and let the tug pull the wing
> ahead/away from their open palm...no risk of a(n accidentally held-back)
> run; eliminates any winglet issues; never flown (or encountered) a
> glider with a downstream protuberance that could hang on anyone's hand
> (though I've little doubt one - somewhere - exists!).
>

If you let the wing rest on the palm of your hand as a wing runner,
how do you prevent the wing lifting off it in a crosswind, if a gust
of wind comes through, or if the tug propwash gets underneath it?

I personally hold the wing as lightly as possible between my thumb and
first finger and at arms length. Some clubs I fly at also require the
wing tip runner to signal, so the two-handed method would not be
practical at these.

Derek C

[150flivver]

On Jul 13, 1:33*am, Derek C > wrote:
> On Jul 13, 12:31*am, Bob Whelan > wrote:
>
>
>
> > As for 'the silver bullet' in wing-tip-holding-methodology, I've (for
> > many years now) asked my runners to let the wing rest on their flat
> > palm, give me the best run they can, and let the tug pull the wing
> > ahead/away from their open palm...no risk of a(n accidentally held-back)
> > run; eliminates any winglet issues; never flown (or encountered) a
> > glider with a downstream protuberance that could hang on anyone's hand
> > (though I've little doubt one - somewhere - exists!).
>
> If you let the wing rest on the palm of your hand as a wing runner,
> how do you prevent the wing lifting off it in a crosswind, if a gust
> of wind comes through, or if the tug propwash gets underneath it?
>
> I personally hold the wing as lightly as possible between my thumb and
> first finger and at arms length. Some clubs I fly at also require the
> wing tip runner to signal, so the two-handed method would not be
> practical at these.
>
> Derek C

As a tow pilot I'm looking for a rudder wag, radio call and or arm
signal from the wingrunner that the sailplane is ready to launch.
Lifting up the wing is gonna make me think that the glider's almost
ready but until I see a positive launch signal I'm gonna be
waitin' (and wondering if none of the three launch signals are
forthcoming).

[Grider Pirate]

On Jul 13, 3:14*pm, 150flivver > wrote:
> On Jul 13, 1:33*am, Derek C > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 13, 12:31*am, Bob Whelan > wrote:
>
> > > As for 'the silver bullet' in wing-tip-holding-methodology, I've (for
> > > many years now) asked my runners to let the wing rest on their flat
> > > palm, give me the best run they can, and let the tug pull the wing
> > > ahead/away from their open palm...no risk of a(n accidentally held-back)
> > > run; eliminates any winglet issues; never flown (or encountered) a
> > > glider with a downstream protuberance that could hang on anyone's hand
> > > (though I've little doubt one - somewhere - exists!).
>
> > If you let the wing rest on the palm of your hand as a wing runner,
> > how do you prevent the wing lifting off it in a crosswind, if a gust
> > of wind comes through, or if the tug propwash gets underneath it?
>
> > I personally hold the wing as lightly as possible between my thumb and
> > first finger and at arms length. Some clubs I fly at also require the
> > wing tip runner to signal, so the two-handed method would not be
> > practical at these.
>
> > Derek C
>
> As a tow pilot I'm looking for a rudder wag, radio call and or arm
> signal from the wingrunner that the sailplane is ready to launch.
> Lifting up the wing is gonna make me think that the glider's almost
> ready but until I see a positive launch signal I'm gonna be
> waitin' (and wondering if none of the three launch signals are
> forthcoming).- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

This was what I was taught to do: Once the pilot signals readiness by
giving me a thumbs up, I raise the wing to a wings level condition.
After the wing is level, I allow it to climb or descend, to cue the
pilot that he needs to apply some aileron to hold the wings level. If
the pilot doesn't get the clue, and the takeoff roll starts, I was
taught again to allow the wing to move up or down SOME. Most pilots
'get it' at this point, and start flying the wing.
When I'm flying the glider, I prefer the wing runner to hold the wing
as lightly as possible. If there's a significant headwind, I often
wave off the wing runner altogether.
My pet 'wing runner' peave: Wing runners that 'help' by pushing
forward on the wing tip.

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

> On Jul 13, 1:33 am, Derek > wrote:
>> On Jul 13, 12:31 am, Bob > wrote:
>>
>>> As for 'the silver bullet' in wing-tip-holding-methodology, I've (for
>>> many years now) asked my runners to let the wing rest on their flat
>>> palm, give me the best run they can, and let the tug pull the wing
>>> ahead/away from their open palm...no risk of a(n accidentally held-back)
>>> run; eliminates any winglet issues; never flown (or encountered) a
>>> glider with a downstream protuberance that could hang on anyone's hand
>>> (though I've little doubt one - somewhere - exists!).
>>
>> If you let the wing rest on the palm of your hand as a wing runner,
>> how do you prevent the wing lifting off it in a crosswind, if a gust
>> of wind comes through, or if the tug propwash gets underneath it?
>>

Certainly a theoretical possibility (prematurely losing contact between
palm and wing undersurface, I mean)...this is an example of one of the
Devil's details noted in a previous post.

That said, all I can relate is my experience and an observation, neither
of which unequivocally answers your question.

In my experience (both as a wing runner and glider guider), neither
proposed possibility has ever occurred. Perhaps it's because - when
aerodynamically moving a glider wingtip is under consideration - tip
movement can't happen 'instantaneously'. Personally, I don't put my palm
beneath the wing's undersurface until the glider, glider pilot and I are
all ready to go; prior to that I'm engaging the wingtip by whatever
method I need to in order to achieve whatever it is I'm trying to
accomplish (e.g. lifting the tip off the ground...which I generally do
by grasping the leading edge of the wing; balancing w. partial water,
etc.). It's while doing these preliminaries I get a sense for how much
of an impact (or not) the existing wind/gust field is likely to have. As
noted, gusts have never been an issue for me - as a launcher or launchee.

Nor - by the time I've got the wing in place atop my palm - has any
tug's propwash ever been an issue. The only times I've witnessed
propwash affecting the glider are: 1) about the time power is added to
take 'the bulk of' the slack out after the tug has completed positioning
itself (more or less) directly ahead of the glider, and 2) well after
the wingtip has been pulled forward/away-from my palm. In the former
instance, if I'm by a wingtip when it lifts from the ground, I generally
slide my foot beneath it to lessen any graceless 'concrete whap' which
might otherwise occur, while in the latter I've (definitionally) done
all I can do.

YMMV.

In any event, there's definitely more to wing running than would seem to
be the case to an uninformed, casual observer!

Bob W.

[Chip Bearden[_2_]]

> Method 1 – Runner stands outboard of wing tip facing in the direction
> of launch and holding the wing tip trailing edge with the hand nearest
> the glider.
>
> Method 2 – Runner stands close behind the wing just inboard of the
> wing tip and holds the trailing edge of the wing with both hands.

I missed this thread--which was sparked by an experience at this
year's US Std/Open Nationals--at the time but I just had to add yet
another note...from a different perspective. I received the worst wing
run I've had in many years on the practice day, which admittedly also
involved a stiff 90 degree crosswind and partial water, and ground off
a good bit of the rubber tip skid. So the next day I declined the line
crew's offer and, instead, gave a careful briefing in Method 1 to my
daughter, Tina who, while a XC and track runner, had never run a wing
before. She did an outstanding job and was soon quite in demand from
other pilots on the grid. The biggest problem was someone who "re-
educated" her the next day in Method 2. She was fast enough as a
runner that it worked for her. But I still disagreed it was the best
method. Unfortunately her "mentor" had been so persuasive that it took
me a while to convince her that my 45 years in soaring were sufficient
to qualify me on this point. She's 16; why should she believe anything
I say? :)

Ultimately I talked to the organizers and explained the problem. My
biggest concern wasn't that one person was out there running wings the
"wrong" way but that an entire line crew had been instructed to do so.
To their great credit, their reaction was to hang a safety vest on
Tina and induct her into the line crew. She didn't do any training
while we languished in the monsoon that was Hobbs 2010 but she got her
workouts in anyway running a lot of wings--using Method 1.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
USA

[bildan]

On Jul 13, 4:46*pm, Grider Pirate > wrote:
> On Jul 13, 3:14*pm, 150flivver > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 13, 1:33*am, Derek C > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 13, 12:31*am, Bob Whelan > wrote:
>
> > > > As for 'the silver bullet' in wing-tip-holding-methodology, I've (for
> > > > many years now) asked my runners to let the wing rest on their flat
> > > > palm, give me the best run they can, and let the tug pull the wing
> > > > ahead/away from their open palm...no risk of a(n accidentally held-back)
> > > > run; eliminates any winglet issues; never flown (or encountered) a
> > > > glider with a downstream protuberance that could hang on anyone's hand
> > > > (though I've little doubt one - somewhere - exists!).
>
> > > If you let the wing rest on the palm of your hand as a wing runner,
> > > how do you prevent the wing lifting off it in a crosswind, if a gust
> > > of wind comes through, or if the tug propwash gets underneath it?
>
> > > I personally hold the wing as lightly as possible between my thumb and
> > > first finger and at arms length. Some clubs I fly at also require the
> > > wing tip runner to signal, so the two-handed method would not be
> > > practical at these.
>
> > > Derek C
>
> > As a tow pilot I'm looking for a rudder wag, radio call and or arm
> > signal from the wingrunner that the sailplane is ready to launch.
> > Lifting up the wing is gonna make me think that the glider's almost
> > ready but until I see a positive launch signal I'm gonna be
> > waitin' (and wondering if none of the three launch signals are
> > forthcoming).- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> This was what I was taught to do: *Once the pilot signals readiness by
> giving me a thumbs up, I raise the wing to a wings level condition.
> After the wing is level, I allow it to climb or descend, to cue the
> pilot that he needs to apply some aileron to hold the wings level. *If
> the pilot doesn't get the clue, and the takeoff roll starts, I was
> taught again to allow the wing to move up or down SOME. *Most pilots
> 'get it' at this point, and start flying the wing.
> When I'm flying the glider, I prefer the wing runner to hold the wing
> as lightly as possible. *If there's a significant headwind, I often
> wave off the wing runner altogether.
> My pet 'wing runner' peave: Wing runners that 'help' by pushing
> forward on the wing tip.

On Sunday, I flew 12 CAP Cadet orientation rides in an ASK-21. The
Cadets only training for wing running was the on-line wing runner
course they swore they had taken before hand. They had never touched
a glider before.

I added one additional instruction to what they had learned. Instead
of holding the wings "level", I told them to BALANCE the glider with
their fingertips wherever it needed to be so there was no up or down
force on the wing tip. They were to run the wing at the angle where
it balanced. LEVEL was not applicable or important.

In cooperation with the wing runners, I placed the stick in the exact
center by reference to a mark on the instrument panel and held it
there as long as the wing runner held the wing.

I got 12 ABSOLUTELY PERFECT wing runs. In most cases, I didn't have
to move the stick until the glider was airborne. I didn't care what
hand they used or where they stood as long as they were safely outside/
behind the wing tip. In fact, they don't even have to run at all if
the glider starts out balanced - it'll take long enough for a wing to
fall, the glider will have plenty of airspeed before any aileron is
needed.

[Derek C]

On Jul 14, 9:59*pm, Bob Whelan > wrote:
> > On Jul 13, 1:33 am, Derek > *wrote:
> >> On Jul 13, 12:31 am, Bob > *wrote:
>
> >>> As for 'the silver bullet' in wing-tip-holding-methodology, I've (for
> >>> many years now) asked my runners to let the wing rest on their flat
> >>> palm, give me the best run they can, and let the tug pull the wing
> >>> ahead/away from their open palm...no risk of a(n accidentally held-back)
> >>> run; eliminates any winglet issues; never flown (or encountered) a
> >>> glider with a downstream protuberance that could hang on anyone's hand
> >>> (though I've little doubt one - somewhere - exists!).
>
> >> If you let the wing rest on the palm of your hand as a wing runner,
> >> how do you prevent the wing lifting off it in a crosswind, if a gust
> >> of wind comes through, or if the tug propwash gets underneath it?
>
> Certainly a theoretical possibility (prematurely losing contact between
> palm and wing undersurface, I mean)...this is an example of one of the
> Devil's details noted in a previous post.
>
> That said, all I can relate is my experience and an observation, neither
> of which unequivocally answers your question.
>
> In my experience (both as a wing runner and glider guider), neither
> proposed possibility has ever occurred. Perhaps it's because - when
> aerodynamically moving a glider wingtip is under consideration - tip
> movement can't happen 'instantaneously'. Personally, I don't put my palm
> beneath the wing's undersurface until the glider, glider pilot and I are
> all ready to go; prior to that I'm engaging the wingtip by whatever
> method I need to in order to achieve whatever it is I'm trying to
> accomplish (e.g. lifting the tip off the ground...which I generally do
> by grasping the leading edge of the wing; balancing w. partial water,
> etc.). It's while doing these preliminaries I get a sense for how much
> of an impact (or not) the existing wind/gust field is likely to have. As
> noted, gusts have never been an issue for me - as a launcher or launchee.
>
> Nor - by the time I've got the wing in place atop my palm - has any
> tug's propwash ever been an issue. The only times I've witnessed
> propwash affecting the glider are: 1) about the time power is added to
> take 'the bulk of' the slack out after the tug has completed positioning
> itself (more or less) directly ahead of the glider, and 2) well after
> the wingtip has been pulled forward/away-from my palm. In the former
> instance, if I'm by a wingtip when it lifts from the ground, I generally
> slide my foot beneath it to lessen any graceless 'concrete whap' which
> might otherwise occur, while in the latter I've (definitionally) done
> all I can do.
>
> YMMV.
>
> In any event, there's definitely more to wing running than would seem to
> be the case to an uninformed, casual observer!
>
> Bob W.

Have you ever launched behind a PZL Wilga or similar radial engined
tug with a huge slow running propeller. The prop wash can be
horrendous and can easily force a wingtip onto the ground when the
wingtip runner lets go, or even while he is still holding it! The
resting on the palm technique probably won't work in this case.

Derek C

[Derek C]

On Aug 10, 8:36*pm, bildan > wrote:
> On Jul 13, 4:46*pm, Grider Pirate > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 13, 3:14*pm, 150flivver > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 13, 1:33*am, Derek C > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 13, 12:31*am, Bob Whelan > wrote:
>
> > > > > As for 'the silver bullet' in wing-tip-holding-methodology, I've (for
> > > > > many years now) asked my runners to let the wing rest on their flat
> > > > > palm, give me the best run they can, and let the tug pull the wing
> > > > > ahead/away from their open palm...no risk of a(n accidentally held-back)
> > > > > run; eliminates any winglet issues; never flown (or encountered) a
> > > > > glider with a downstream protuberance that could hang on anyone's hand
> > > > > (though I've little doubt one - somewhere - exists!).
>
> > > > If you let the wing rest on the palm of your hand as a wing runner,
> > > > how do you prevent the wing lifting off it in a crosswind, if a gust
> > > > of wind comes through, or if the tug propwash gets underneath it?
>
> > > > I personally hold the wing as lightly as possible between my thumb and
> > > > first finger and at arms length. Some clubs I fly at also require the
> > > > wing tip runner to signal, so the two-handed method would not be
> > > > practical at these.
>
> > > > Derek C
>
> > > As a tow pilot I'm looking for a rudder wag, radio call and or arm
> > > signal from the wingrunner that the sailplane is ready to launch.
> > > Lifting up the wing is gonna make me think that the glider's almost
> > > ready but until I see a positive launch signal I'm gonna be
> > > waitin' (and wondering if none of the three launch signals are
> > > forthcoming).- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > This was what I was taught to do: *Once the pilot signals readiness by
> > giving me a thumbs up, I raise the wing to a wings level condition.
> > After the wing is level, I allow it to climb or descend, to cue the
> > pilot that he needs to apply some aileron to hold the wings level. *If
> > the pilot doesn't get the clue, and the takeoff roll starts, I was
> > taught again to allow the wing to move up or down SOME. *Most pilots
> > 'get it' at this point, and start flying the wing.
> > When I'm flying the glider, I prefer the wing runner to hold the wing
> > as lightly as possible. *If there's a significant headwind, I often
> > wave off the wing runner altogether.
> > My pet 'wing runner' peave: Wing runners that 'help' by pushing
> > forward on the wing tip.
>
> On Sunday, I flew 12 CAP Cadet orientation rides in an ASK-21. *The
> Cadets only training for wing running was the on-line wing runner
> course they swore they had taken before hand. *They had never touched
> a glider before.
>
> I added one additional instruction to what they had learned. *Instead
> of holding the wings "level", I told them to BALANCE the glider with
> their fingertips wherever it needed to be so there was no up or down
> force on the wing tip. *They were to run the wing at the angle where
> it balanced. *LEVEL was not applicable or important.
>
> In cooperation with the wing runners, I placed the stick in the exact
> center by reference to a mark on the instrument panel and held it
> there as long as the wing runner held the wing.
>
> I got 12 ABSOLUTELY PERFECT wing runs. *In most cases, I didn't have
> to move the stick until the glider was airborne. *I didn't care what
> hand they used or where they stood as long as they were safely outside/
> behind the wing tip. *In fact, they don't even have to run at all if
> the glider starts out balanced - it'll take long enough for a wing to
> fall, the glider will have plenty of airspeed before any aileron is
> needed.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Obviously no crosswinds, gusts or thermals on that day? The ASK-21 has
plenty of mass and stability, so it is the best possible candidate for
this technique. May not work quite as well for many single seaters,
especially if carrying water ballast, or if you have a tug aircraft
that generates a lot of propwash (e.g PZL Wiga).

Derek C

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 8/10/2010 10:07 PM, Derek C wrote:

<Snipperoo...>
>>
>> YMMV.
>>
>> In any event, there's definitely more to wing running than would seem to
>> be the case to an uninformed, casual observer!
>>
>> Bob W.
>
> Have you ever launched behind a PZL Wilga or similar radial engined
> tug with a huge slow running propeller. The prop wash can be
> horrendous and can easily force a wingtip onto the ground when the
> wingtip runner lets go, or even while he is still holding it! The
> resting on the palm technique probably won't work in this case.
>
> Derek C

The devil is indeed in the details! (Hey! Who said that earlier?!?)

Regrettably, radial engines are pretty rare in the U.S. anymore, at least as
glider tugs go. Though I know the U.S. community has broken more than one
Wilga in tug service, I've never had the opportunity to see a Wilga in the
flesh, or, towed/launched-anyone behind a radial - any radial.

(In fact, I've met but one glider-guider who's towed behind a radial, and that
was a 400hp Stearman pulling a 1-26 [back in the early 1970's]. The low-time
pilot said the climb angle was startlingly/impressively steep, and the 2,000'
agl tow breathtakingly short!)

Bob W.

[Larry Goddard]

"bildan" > wrote in message
:

> On Jul 12, 10:30*am, Bart > wrote:
> > On Jul 11, 2:01*am, Bruce Hoult > wrote:
> >
> > > I disagree. Depending on conditions, the pilot might need a
> > > substantial amount of aileron in one direction of the other to keep
> > > the forces neutral.
> >
> > > If I feel pressure on the wingtip while the slack is being taken up
> > > then I allow the tip to go markedly high or low until the pilot
> > > notices the glider is not level and applies the appropriate aileron.
> >
> > That's what I like as a pilot, and that's how I will run a wing,
> > unless the glider pilot requests a different technique.
> >
> > B.
>
> I observed this example.
>
> The pilot was holding full left aileron against a very light (2 - 3
> Kt.) left crosswind component making the tip very heavy. The wing
> runner, on the left wing, allowed the wing to go to the ground
> whereupon the pilot jerked his thumb up indicating he wanted the wing
> raised all the while still holding full left aileron.
>
> The wing runner did his best but when the wing was released, it
> slammed down and the glider ground looped. The pilot jumped out and
> ran back demanding to know why the wing runner didn't know his job.
>
> The group of observers tried to tell the pilot it was his fault for
> holding left aileron but he insisted that was the right thing to do
> and it wasn't his fault. He had a very hard time finding willing wing
> runners after that.
>
> My take home: If I were the pilot, I'd center the stick and let the
> wing runner do the job right. If I were the runner, I'd just put the
> wing down and walk away.


If the pilot is not correcting properly when I have the wing "leveled",
I will allow the wing to rise or drop according to what it wants to do
so that the pilot will realize that he had the wrong inputs into the
stick. Seems to work every time.

Larry

[bildan]

On Aug 10, 11:23*pm, Derek C > wrote:
> On Aug 10, 8:36*pm, bildan > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 13, 4:46*pm, Grider Pirate > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 13, 3:14*pm, 150flivver > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 13, 1:33*am, Derek C > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jul 13, 12:31*am, Bob Whelan > wrote:
>
> > > > > > As for 'the silver bullet' in wing-tip-holding-methodology, I've (for
> > > > > > many years now) asked my runners to let the wing rest on their flat
> > > > > > palm, give me the best run they can, and let the tug pull the wing
> > > > > > ahead/away from their open palm...no risk of a(n accidentally held-back)
> > > > > > run; eliminates any winglet issues; never flown (or encountered) a
> > > > > > glider with a downstream protuberance that could hang on anyone's hand
> > > > > > (though I've little doubt one - somewhere - exists!).
>
> > > > > If you let the wing rest on the palm of your hand as a wing runner,
> > > > > how do you prevent the wing lifting off it in a crosswind, if a gust
> > > > > of wind comes through, or if the tug propwash gets underneath it?
>
> > > > > I personally hold the wing as lightly as possible between my thumb and
> > > > > first finger and at arms length. Some clubs I fly at also require the
> > > > > wing tip runner to signal, so the two-handed method would not be
> > > > > practical at these.
>
> > > > > Derek C
>
> > > > As a tow pilot I'm looking for a rudder wag, radio call and or arm
> > > > signal from the wingrunner that the sailplane is ready to launch.
> > > > Lifting up the wing is gonna make me think that the glider's almost
> > > > ready but until I see a positive launch signal I'm gonna be
> > > > waitin' (and wondering if none of the three launch signals are
> > > > forthcoming).- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > This was what I was taught to do: *Once the pilot signals readiness by
> > > giving me a thumbs up, I raise the wing to a wings level condition.
> > > After the wing is level, I allow it to climb or descend, to cue the
> > > pilot that he needs to apply some aileron to hold the wings level. *If
> > > the pilot doesn't get the clue, and the takeoff roll starts, I was
> > > taught again to allow the wing to move up or down SOME. *Most pilots
> > > 'get it' at this point, and start flying the wing.
> > > When I'm flying the glider, I prefer the wing runner to hold the wing
> > > as lightly as possible. *If there's a significant headwind, I often
> > > wave off the wing runner altogether.
> > > My pet 'wing runner' peave: Wing runners that 'help' by pushing
> > > forward on the wing tip.
>
> > On Sunday, I flew 12 CAP Cadet orientation rides in an ASK-21. *The
> > Cadets only training for wing running was the on-line wing runner
> > course they swore they had taken before hand. *They had never touched
> > a glider before.
>
> > I added one additional instruction to what they had learned. *Instead
> > of holding the wings "level", I told them to BALANCE the glider with
> > their fingertips wherever it needed to be so there was no up or down
> > force on the wing tip. *They were to run the wing at the angle where
> > it balanced. *LEVEL was not applicable or important.
>
> > In cooperation with the wing runners, I placed the stick in the exact
> > center by reference to a mark on the instrument panel and held it
> > there as long as the wing runner held the wing.
>
> > I got 12 ABSOLUTELY PERFECT wing runs. *In most cases, I didn't have
> > to move the stick until the glider was airborne. *I didn't care what
> > hand they used or where they stood as long as they were safely outside/
> > behind the wing tip. *In fact, they don't even have to run at all if
> > the glider starts out balanced - it'll take long enough for a wing to
> > fall, the glider will have plenty of airspeed before any aileron is
> > needed.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Obviously no crosswinds, gusts or thermals on that day? The ASK-21 has
> plenty of mass and stability, so it is the best possible candidate for
> this technique. May not work quite as well for many single seaters,
> especially if carrying water ballast, or if you have a tug aircraft
> that generates a lot of propwash (e.g PZL Wiga).
>
> Derek C

Yes, there was a crosswind which is why it worked so well. It works
even better with ballasted single seaters.

[bildan]

On Aug 11, 9:07*am, "Larry Goddard" > wrote:
> "bildan" > wrote in message
>
> :
>
>
>
> > On Jul 12, 10:30*am, Bart > wrote:
> > > On Jul 11, 2:01*am, Bruce Hoult > wrote:
>
> > > > I disagree. Depending on conditions, the pilot might need a
> > > > substantial amount of aileron in one direction of the other to keep
> > > > the forces neutral.
>
> > > > If I feel pressure on the wingtip while the slack is being taken up
> > > > then I allow the tip to go markedly high or low until the pilot
> > > > notices the glider is not level and applies the appropriate aileron..
>
> > > That's what I like as a pilot, and that's how I will run a wing,
> > > unless the glider pilot requests a different technique.
>
> > > B.
>
> > I observed this example.
>
> > The pilot was holding full left aileron against a very light (2 - 3
> > Kt.) left crosswind component making the tip very heavy. *The wing
> > runner, on the left wing, allowed the wing to go to the ground
> > whereupon the pilot jerked his thumb up indicating he wanted the wing
> > raised all the while still holding full left aileron.
>
> > The wing runner did his best but when the wing was released, it
> > slammed down and the glider ground looped. *The pilot jumped out and
> > ran back demanding to know why the wing runner didn't know his job.
>
> > The group of observers tried to tell the pilot it was his fault for
> > holding left aileron but he insisted that was the right thing to do
> > and it wasn't his fault. *He had a very hard time finding willing wing
> > runners after that.
>
> > My take home: *If I were the pilot, I'd center the stick and let the
> > wing runner do the job right. *If I were the runner, I'd just put the
> > wing down and walk away.
>
> If the pilot is not correcting properly when I have the wing "leveled",
> I will allow the wing to rise or drop according to what it wants to do
> so that the pilot will realize that he had the wrong inputs into the
> stick. *Seems to work every time.
>
> Larry

That's the backup action. If the pilot is holding neutral aileron,
the issue doesn't arise.

[Derek C]

On Aug 11, 7:32*pm, bildan > wrote:
> On Aug 10, 11:23*pm, Derek C > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 10, 8:36*pm, bildan > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 13, 4:46*pm, Grider Pirate > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 13, 3:14*pm, 150flivver > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jul 13, 1:33*am, Derek C > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Jul 13, 12:31*am, Bob Whelan > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > As for 'the silver bullet' in wing-tip-holding-methodology, I've (for
> > > > > > > many years now) asked my runners to let the wing rest on their flat
> > > > > > > palm, give me the best run they can, and let the tug pull the wing
> > > > > > > ahead/away from their open palm...no risk of a(n accidentally held-back)
> > > > > > > run; eliminates any winglet issues; never flown (or encountered) a
> > > > > > > glider with a downstream protuberance that could hang on anyone's hand
> > > > > > > (though I've little doubt one - somewhere - exists!).
>
> > > > > > If you let the wing rest on the palm of your hand as a wing runner,
> > > > > > how do you prevent the wing lifting off it in a crosswind, if a gust
> > > > > > of wind comes through, or if the tug propwash gets underneath it?
>
> > > > > > I personally hold the wing as lightly as possible between my thumb and
> > > > > > first finger and at arms length. Some clubs I fly at also require the
> > > > > > wing tip runner to signal, so the two-handed method would not be
> > > > > > practical at these.
>
> > > > > > Derek C
>
> > > > > As a tow pilot I'm looking for a rudder wag, radio call and or arm
> > > > > signal from the wingrunner that the sailplane is ready to launch.
> > > > > Lifting up the wing is gonna make me think that the glider's almost
> > > > > ready but until I see a positive launch signal I'm gonna be
> > > > > waitin' (and wondering if none of the three launch signals are
> > > > > forthcoming).- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > This was what I was taught to do: *Once the pilot signals readiness by
> > > > giving me a thumbs up, I raise the wing to a wings level condition.
> > > > After the wing is level, I allow it to climb or descend, to cue the
> > > > pilot that he needs to apply some aileron to hold the wings level. *If
> > > > the pilot doesn't get the clue, and the takeoff roll starts, I was
> > > > taught again to allow the wing to move up or down SOME. *Most pilots
> > > > 'get it' at this point, and start flying the wing.
> > > > When I'm flying the glider, I prefer the wing runner to hold the wing
> > > > as lightly as possible. *If there's a significant headwind, I often
> > > > wave off the wing runner altogether.
> > > > My pet 'wing runner' peave: Wing runners that 'help' by pushing
> > > > forward on the wing tip.
>
> > > On Sunday, I flew 12 CAP Cadet orientation rides in an ASK-21. *The
> > > Cadets only training for wing running was the on-line wing runner
> > > course they swore they had taken before hand. *They had never touched
> > > a glider before.
>
> > > I added one additional instruction to what they had learned. *Instead
> > > of holding the wings "level", I told them to BALANCE the glider with
> > > their fingertips wherever it needed to be so there was no up or down
> > > force on the wing tip. *They were to run the wing at the angle where
> > > it balanced. *LEVEL was not applicable or important.
>
> > > In cooperation with the wing runners, I placed the stick in the exact
> > > center by reference to a mark on the instrument panel and held it
> > > there as long as the wing runner held the wing.
>
> > > I got 12 ABSOLUTELY PERFECT wing runs. *In most cases, I didn't have
> > > to move the stick until the glider was airborne. *I didn't care what
> > > hand they used or where they stood as long as they were safely outside/
> > > behind the wing tip. *In fact, they don't even have to run at all if
> > > the glider starts out balanced - it'll take long enough for a wing to
> > > fall, the glider will have plenty of airspeed before any aileron is
> > > needed.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Obviously no crosswinds, gusts or thermals on that day? The ASK-21 has
> > plenty of mass and stability, so it is the best possible candidate for
> > this technique. May not work quite as well for many single seaters,
> > especially if carrying water ballast, or if you have a tug aircraft
> > that generates a lot of propwash (e.g PZL Wiga).
>
> > Derek C
>
> Yes, there was a crosswind which is why it worked so well. *It works
> even better with ballasted single seaters.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Would only work if the wing tip runner holds the downwind tip and runs
pretty fast before letting go. The aileron response of a fully water
ballasted glider can be pretty minimum until a good airspeed is
reached, or there is a good headwind to start with. It may be
necessary to hold the wings level for quite a few seconds before
starting the launch to allow the water to equilibrate in the tanks or
bags.

Derek C

[Derek C]

On Aug 11, 7:32*pm, bildan > wrote:
> On Aug 10, 11:23*pm, Derek C > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 10, 8:36*pm, bildan > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 13, 4:46*pm, Grider Pirate > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 13, 3:14*pm, 150flivver > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jul 13, 1:33*am, Derek C > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Jul 13, 12:31*am, Bob Whelan > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > As for 'the silver bullet' in wing-tip-holding-methodology, I've (for
> > > > > > > many years now) asked my runners to let the wing rest on their flat
> > > > > > > palm, give me the best run they can, and let the tug pull the wing
> > > > > > > ahead/away from their open palm...no risk of a(n accidentally held-back)
> > > > > > > run; eliminates any winglet issues; never flown (or encountered) a
> > > > > > > glider with a downstream protuberance that could hang on anyone's hand
> > > > > > > (though I've little doubt one - somewhere - exists!).
>
> > > > > > If you let the wing rest on the palm of your hand as a wing runner,
> > > > > > how do you prevent the wing lifting off it in a crosswind, if a gust
> > > > > > of wind comes through, or if the tug propwash gets underneath it?
>
> > > > > > I personally hold the wing as lightly as possible between my thumb and
> > > > > > first finger and at arms length. Some clubs I fly at also require the
> > > > > > wing tip runner to signal, so the two-handed method would not be
> > > > > > practical at these.
>
> > > > > > Derek C
>
> > > > > As a tow pilot I'm looking for a rudder wag, radio call and or arm
> > > > > signal from the wingrunner that the sailplane is ready to launch.
> > > > > Lifting up the wing is gonna make me think that the glider's almost
> > > > > ready but until I see a positive launch signal I'm gonna be
> > > > > waitin' (and wondering if none of the three launch signals are
> > > > > forthcoming).- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > This was what I was taught to do: *Once the pilot signals readiness by
> > > > giving me a thumbs up, I raise the wing to a wings level condition.
> > > > After the wing is level, I allow it to climb or descend, to cue the
> > > > pilot that he needs to apply some aileron to hold the wings level. *If
> > > > the pilot doesn't get the clue, and the takeoff roll starts, I was
> > > > taught again to allow the wing to move up or down SOME. *Most pilots
> > > > 'get it' at this point, and start flying the wing.
> > > > When I'm flying the glider, I prefer the wing runner to hold the wing
> > > > as lightly as possible. *If there's a significant headwind, I often
> > > > wave off the wing runner altogether.
> > > > My pet 'wing runner' peave: Wing runners that 'help' by pushing
> > > > forward on the wing tip.
>
> > > On Sunday, I flew 12 CAP Cadet orientation rides in an ASK-21. *The
> > > Cadets only training for wing running was the on-line wing runner
> > > course they swore they had taken before hand. *They had never touched
> > > a glider before.
>
> > > I added one additional instruction to what they had learned. *Instead
> > > of holding the wings "level", I told them to BALANCE the glider with
> > > their fingertips wherever it needed to be so there was no up or down
> > > force on the wing tip. *They were to run the wing at the angle where
> > > it balanced. *LEVEL was not applicable or important.
>
> > > In cooperation with the wing runners, I placed the stick in the exact
> > > center by reference to a mark on the instrument panel and held it
> > > there as long as the wing runner held the wing.
>
> > > I got 12 ABSOLUTELY PERFECT wing runs. *In most cases, I didn't have
> > > to move the stick until the glider was airborne. *I didn't care what
> > > hand they used or where they stood as long as they were safely outside/
> > > behind the wing tip. *In fact, they don't even have to run at all if
> > > the glider starts out balanced - it'll take long enough for a wing to
> > > fall, the glider will have plenty of airspeed before any aileron is
> > > needed.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Obviously no crosswinds, gusts or thermals on that day? The ASK-21 has
> > plenty of mass and stability, so it is the best possible candidate for
> > this technique. May not work quite as well for many single seaters,
> > especially if carrying water ballast, or if you have a tug aircraft
> > that generates a lot of propwash (e.g PZL Wiga).
>
> > Derek C
>
> Yes, there was a crosswind which is why it worked so well. *It works
> even better with ballasted single seaters.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Would only work if the wing tip runner holds the downwind tip and runs
pretty fast before letting go. The aileron response of a fully water
ballasted glider can be pretty minimum until a good airspeed is
reached, or there is a good headwind to start with. It may be
necessary to hold the wings level for quite a few seconds before
starting the launch to allow the water to equilibrate in the tanks or
bags.

Derek C

[Chip Bearden[_2_]]

This is not rocket science. :) Actually, if I hadn't witnessed the
confusion at Hobbs this summer and read some of the responses to this
thread, I wouldn't have believed it possible that this subject could
generate so much controversy. So permit me to add to it.

The pilot keeps the stick neutral (that should only be a problem with
a side stick). The wing runner BALANCES the wings (may take many
seconds with water ballast). The wings may not be level when they're
balanced if the ballast is uneven and/or there's a steady crosswind.
The wing runner RUNS--holding the tip from the trailing edge, palm
under/thumb over--until the wingtip flies out of the hand (i.e., don't
hold it back). In normal US club and commercial operations, the
wingtip runner doesn't raise the tip until the pilot is ready and he
also signals the towplane to take up slack. At a contest, everything
is specialized and the wing runner may do nothing but hold the tip to
keep the wings balanced after the wingwheel is removed and then run
like crazy when another ops person gives the signal. I personally
don't want anyone touching the winglet but other pilots may think it's
OK. Ask first. I've run tips where the aileron comes all the way out
and never had a problem.

If there's a gusty crosswind, the wing runner may have to work hard to
prevent the upwind wing from being lifted. Ditto if the ballast shifts
slightly. Or if a gust rolls through during the first few seconds of
takeoff roll.

If the glider has a tailskid instead of a rubber tailwheel or for some
other reason it starts to swing (e.g., a Ka-6 or early ASW 15 with an
off-center towhitch), a savvy wing runner can apply a bit of fore or
aft force to help correct the direction. Don't try this unless you
really know what you're doing or the pilot has asked you to because
the glider has intentionally or accidentally been positioned off
heading.

When running a 1-26 or 2-33 with tip wheels towed by a strong towplane
into a nice headwind on a cool day at sea level, you can probably take
two steps and let go. When running a modern competition glider with
water ballast on a narrow runway with a crosswind at higher altitudes
when it's 100F behind the one of six tugs NO ONE wants to get because
his engine is anemic, run as fast and as far as you can and hope for
the best. As with most things in life, no single identical technique
works every time.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
USA