TCO for small aircraft

[Mxsmanic]

Disregarding the actual cost of buying your own airplane, what's the total
cost of ownership for a small single-engine aircraft, like a Bonanza? Exclude
fuel and consumables.

I read about someone with a Baron who apparently spends thousands of dollars a
year on required maintenance. Is that typical? Is it lower for a single-engine
aircraft? Does the cost vary a lot with manufacturers, that is, does a Bonanza
cost more than a 172? (From what I understand, Beechcraft aircraft are of very
high quality but very expensive as well.)

Also, if you have a figure for cost per flight hour, I'd be interested in that
as well.

[betwys1]

On 7/11/2010 7:51 AM, Mxsmanic wrote:
> Disregarding the actual cost of buying your own airplane, what's the total
> cost of ownership for a small single-engine aircraft, like a Bonanza? Exclude
> fuel and consumables.
>
> I read about someone with a Baron who apparently spends thousands of dollars a
> year on required maintenance. Is that typical? Is it lower for a single-engine
> aircraft? Does the cost vary a lot with manufacturers, that is, does a Bonanza
> cost more than a 172? (From what I understand, Beechcraft aircraft are of very
> high quality but very expensive as well.)
>
> Also, if you have a figure for cost per flight hour, I'd be interested in that
> as well.

Here is a LOWER limit on operating costs on an airplane - these are for
a good C-150 in advantageous conditions:

Annual fixed costs - capital at 4% opportunity cost, storage,
annual, misc: $2000
Running cost: $18 per hour

Annual bottom line at 70 hrs/yr :$3260 = $47/hr

A Bonanza would be more than a X3 multiplier.

Brian W

[Bob Moore]

Mxsmanic > wrote

> Disregarding the actual cost of buying your own airplane, what's the
> total cost of ownership for a small single-engine aircraft, like a
> Bonanza? Exclude fuel and consumables.

Our older (1959) Cessna 172 works out as follows:
Tiedown..Outside $150/mo...Shade Hangar $250/mo...Hangar $500/mo and up.
Insurance...$750/yr. Annual Inspection....Avg about $800/yr.
Total....about $3000/year.

> Also, if you have a figure for cost per flight hour, I'd be interested
> in that as well.

It burns around 8 gals/hr @ $4.50/gal plus a Qt of oil every now and then
for a total of $35-$40/hour.

At 100 hours/year, that ammounts to about $6000-$7000 per year plus
unexpected repairs.

Bob Moore

[a[_3_]]

On Jul 11, 11:21*am, Bob Moore > wrote:
> Mxsmanic > wrote
>
> > Disregarding the actual cost of buying your own airplane, what's the
> > total cost of ownership for a small single-engine aircraft, like a
> > Bonanza? Exclude fuel and consumables.
>
> Our older (1959) Cessna 172 works out as follows:
> Tiedown..Outside $150/mo...Shade Hangar $250/mo...Hangar $500/mo and up.
> Insurance...$750/yr. Annual Inspection....Avg about $800/yr.
> Total....about $3000/year.
>
> > Also, if you have a figure for cost per flight hour, I'd be interested
> > in that as well.
>
> It burns around 8 gals/hr @ $4.50/gal plus a Qt of oil every now and then
> for a total of $35-$40/hour.
>
> At 100 hours/year, that ammounts to about $6000-$7000 per year plus
> unexpected repairs.
>
> Bob Moore

Bob, your out of pocket numbers are fine, but it's also realistic to
include a reserve for engine replacement and a few dollars added to
the hourly rate for other repairs if you want a realistic estimate for
the cost of flying. Or, when the Hobbs goes from 1999 to 2001 hours it
will be a VERY expensive hour! And some things just don't last or wear
out. we put something in the mental piggy bank for those kinds of
things too.

For what it's worth, I fly the Mooney at low RPMs and oversquare as
allowed in the POH so my flight hours do not accumulate 60 minutes
each against the engine life. The current engine, being treated
gently, looks like it'll easily get to 2000 hours.

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"a" > wrote in message
...

>Bob, your out of pocket numbers are fine, but it's also realistic to
>include a reserve for engine replacement and a few dollars added to
>the hourly rate for other repairs if you want a realistic estimate for
>the cost of flying. Or, when the Hobbs goes from 1999 to 2001 hours it
>will be a VERY expensive hour! And some things just don't last or wear
>out. we put something in the mental piggy bank for those kinds of
>things too.

My engine has 360 hours on it. What are the odds that I will still own it
1,140 hours from now? I don't try to figure a "reserve" for an overhaul I
may never do. I prefer the "pay as you go" model.

>> Our older (1959) Cessna 172 works out as follows:
> >Tiedown..Outside $150/mo...Shade Hangar $250/mo...Hangar $500/mo and up.
> >Insurance...$750/yr. Annual Inspection....Avg about $800/yr.
>> Total....about $3000/year.

My insurance is about twice that (experimental taildragger), but my hanger
is about half. Previous owner paid less than $100 per month for an open
front hangar on a small grass strip.

As far as "opportunity cost" goes - what is the "inopportunity cost" of
being stuck playing video games?

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[betwys1]

On 7/11/2010 6:00 PM, Stephen! wrote:

> The flying club I use should be a pretty good indicator around these
> parts. Since the club is not a 'commercial for-profit' operation, the cost
> per hour of the aircraft is set just high enough to pay the operating/
> maintenance costs for each aircraft... These prices are 'wet'.
>
> VFR Cessna 150 $36/hr
> IFR Cessna 172 $52/hr
> IFR Cessna 182 $79/hr
> Citabria $54/hr
> VFR Cessna 180 h/p 172 $64/hr
>

Those prices look attractive. The only prices I have seen recently in
that ball-park also need a monthly or yearly membership fee.
Is that the case at your club? How much?
Where is it?

Regards

Brian W

[betwys1]

On 7/12/2010 10:47 PM, Stephen! wrote:
> > wrote in
> :
>
>>> VFR Cessna 150 $36/hr
>>> IFR Cessna 172 $52/hr
>>> IFR Cessna 182 $79/hr
>>> Citabria $54/hr
>>> VFR Cessna 180 h/p 172 $64/hr
>>>
>>
>> Those prices look attractive. The only prices I have seen recently in
>> that ball-park also need a monthly or yearly membership fee.
>> Is that the case at your club? How much?
>
> Oops... Forgot about that part. $80 a month but if you pay yer
> membership before the 15th, $20 of that gets applied toward 'flight
> credits' so it works out to $60 a month. Still a hell of a deal.
>
>> Where is it?
>
> The 'Sleeping Giant Flying Club' in Helena, Montana.
>
>

Even so, at 70 hrs/yr usage, that places a C-150 at $46 /hr.
As good as my numbers. That's a well-run operation.
Has it been running long?

Brian W

[a[_3_]]

On Jul 12, 11:47*pm, "Stephen!" > wrote:
> betwys1 > wrote om:
>
> >> VFR Cessna 150 * * * * * *$36/hr
> >> IFR Cessna 172 * * * * * *$52/hr
> >> IFR Cessna 182 * * * * * *$79/hr
> >> Citabria * * * * * * * * *$54/hr
> >> VFR Cessna 180 h/p 172 * *$64/hr
>
> > Those prices look attractive. The only prices I have seen recently in
> > that ball-park also need a monthly or yearly membership fee.
> > Is that the case at your club? How much?
>
> * Oops... *Forgot about that part. *$80 a month but if you pay yer
> membership before the 15th, $20 of that gets applied toward 'flight
> credits' so it works out to $60 a month. *Still a hell of a deal.
>
> > Where is it?
>
> The 'Sleeping Giant Flying Club' in Helena, Montana.
>
> --
> RCOS #7
> IBA# 11465http://imagesdesavions.com

Your club looks like a reasonable deal for people who fly about as
much as the average private pilot. How many aircraft, how many
members?

I know of a couple of 'partnerships' where three or four 100 or 150
flight hours a year people got together and got a complex single,
charged a monthly fee for fixed costs and a per tach hour fee for
flying time --worked well for them, and each 'owned' the airplane for
a weekend a month. The devil is in the details of the partnership
agreement -- actually it was a corporation for liability reasons --
but it worked out for them. I think if the group is going to use the
airplane more than a couple of hundred hours a year it probably works
out that owning a share of the airplane instead of being a member of a
larger club works better. And you can trust me on this:

[a[_3_]]

On Jul 13, 7:59*am, a > wrote:
> On Jul 12, 11:47*pm, "Stephen!" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > betwys1 > wrote om:
>
> > >> VFR Cessna 150 * * * * * *$36/hr
> > >> IFR Cessna 172 * * * * * *$52/hr
> > >> IFR Cessna 182 * * * * * *$79/hr
> > >> Citabria * * * * * * * * *$54/hr
> > >> VFR Cessna 180 h/p 172 * *$64/hr
>
> > > Those prices look attractive. The only prices I have seen recently in
> > > that ball-park also need a monthly or yearly membership fee.
> > > Is that the case at your club? How much?
>
> > * Oops... *Forgot about that part. *$80 a month but if you pay yer
> > membership before the 15th, $20 of that gets applied toward 'flight
> > credits' so it works out to $60 a month. *Still a hell of a deal.
>
> > > Where is it?
>
> > The 'Sleeping Giant Flying Club' in Helena, Montana.
>
> > --
> > RCOS #7
> > IBA# 11465http://imagesdesavions.com
>
> Your club looks like a reasonable deal for people who fly about as
> much as the average private pilot. How many aircraft, how many
> members?
>
> I know of a couple of 'partnerships' where three or four 100 or 150
> flight hours a year people got together and got a complex single,
> charged a monthly fee for fixed costs and a per tach hour fee for
> flying time --worked well for them, and each 'owned' the airplane for
> a weekend a month. The devil is in the details of the partnership
> agreement -- actually it was a corporation for liability reasons --
> but it worked out for them. I think if the group is going to use the
> airplane more than a couple of hundred hours a year it probably works
> out that owning a share of the airplane instead of being a member of a
> larger club works better. And you can trust me on this:

Opps -- the post got away from me

The trust me idea is, one flies a lot more gently if that pilot is a
part owner rather than a member. Billing by the tach hour has other
advantages too, one is more careful of the engine, apt to run at lower
RPMs, use less fuel, etc.

[VOR-DME[_3_]]

In article >,
says...

>
>My engine has 360 hours on it. What are the odds that I will still own it
>1,140 hours from now? I don't try to figure a "reserve" for an overhaul I
>may never do. I prefer the "pay as you go" model.


I am of the "put the advance in the kitty and make the money work while
you’re out flying" school, but I have to admit the "pay as you go" model is
in some ways more sensible. Depends on how much you fly really. If you
really do 200-400h/year, and intend to take your airplane to TBO and keep
going, you are lying to yourself about operating costs if you do not set
aside an hourly investment for the engine. In this case, when the inevitable
happens - may be before or after TBO - you find yourself out of an airplane
for the time it takes you to come up with the cash. On the other hand, if
you are not sure to take the airplane to TBO, either because you will move
up to bigger and better by the time it gets there, or you don’t fly enough
and you expect to be occupying a small pine box before it gets there, then
don’t squirrel money away that could be better spent on bassoon lessons!
Selling a plane with a newly rebuilt engine is like selling a house with a
new furnace - no matter how well you did your homework, you will only get
back a fraction of what you so carefully invested. You will be in direct
price competition with people who invested less carefully, or not at all.

Overall, the prices I see listed here are on the very low end, based on old
aircraft with little residual value and little insured hull value. Once you
get into a more recent aircraft, or a higher performance one, you can at
least double all of the numbers I have seen posted here. Remember though,
this more costly machine is taking you many miles per flight hour, and in
some cases saving you not hours, but days of time, and this can be very
economical.

[a[_3_]]

On Jul 14, 11:18*pm, "Stephen!" > wrote:
> a > wrote in news:ac873505-a745-4aa9-96d4-f01b83bb9594
> @w31g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Your club looks like a reasonable deal for people who fly about as
> > much as the average private pilot. How many aircraft, how many
> > members?
>
> *Five aircraft, lots of members, few active members. *Bonus is that it's
> run from an A&P/IA FBO shop and the owner/operator/mechanic of the shop is
> very active in the club and one of the few CFI-I's. *He has a vested
> interest in keeping the aircraft in tip-top shape.
>
> --
> RCOS #7
> IBA# 11465http://imagesdesavions.com

The lots of members sure helps distribute the fixed costs! As I said,
it looks to be a good deal. C172s are perfect for meandering around,
my Mooney is fine for getting from here to there. I need more straight
recreational flying!

[Gemini]

On 2010-07-11, Stephen! > wrote:
> Mxsmanic > wrote in
> :
>
>> Also, if you have a figure for cost per flight hour, I'd be interested
>> in that as well.
>
> The flying club I use should be a pretty good indicator around these
> parts. Since the club is not a 'commercial for-profit' operation, the cost
> per hour of the aircraft is set just high enough to pay the operating/
> maintenance costs for each aircraft... These prices are 'wet'.
>
> VFR Cessna 150 $36/hr
> IFR Cessna 172 $52/hr
> IFR Cessna 182 $79/hr
> Citabria $54/hr
> VFR Cessna 180 h/p 172 $64/hr
>

Is that the dry rate? Seems REALLY low! Where's your club?

Regards

[Gemini]

On 2010-08-05, Stephen! > wrote:
> Gemini > wrote in
> :
>
>>> These prices are 'wet'.
>>>
>>> VFR Cessna 150 $36/hr
>>> IFR Cessna 172 $52/hr
>>> IFR Cessna 182 $79/hr
>>> Citabria $54/hr
>>> VFR Cessna 180 h/p 172 $64/hr
>>>
>>
>> Is that the dry rate? Seems REALLY low!
>
> These prices are 'wet'. If fuel is purchased off-field we are
> reimbursed for the purchase of that fuel at the club rates. Currently
> $2.86 for automotive fuel and ~$4 for AVGAS for the 180 h/p 172.
>
>> Where's your club?
>
> Helena, MT.

That's awesome. The absolute cheapest here is $75/hr wet for Piper
PA28-140 (Cherokee). At the other airport, the Cessna's are like
$110/hr wet. Same deal for gas reimburse - which sucks if you're
flying somewhere that fuel is $5...

Helena - That's near Missoula, eh? I worked there a couple of years
ago doing contract work for a law firm for a month. I liked there.
I was there in Nov/Dec, and the air was so crisp! I was living in Vegas
at the time, so, it was a welcome change.

Do you need to be mountain rated in that area?

Regards,
Scott