Sea Story For Woody

[Mike Kanze]

Since Woody just asked for sea stories, I'll try to oblige. Unfortunately
this one came to me third or fourth-hand, so its provenance is uncertain,
thus the customary "TINS" acronym will be omitted.

--
Mike Kanze

"If history repeats itself, I should think we can expect the same thing
again."

- NBC softball analyst at the 2004 Summer Olympics (This one earned the Yogi
Berra Award.)

***

"This is a good story particularly if you lust over mixed metaphors. This
is from a colorful writer from the 1st Marine Air Wing based at MCAS
Miramar.

"There I was at six thousand feet over central Iraq, two hundred eighty
knots and we're dropping faster than Paris Hilton's panties.
It's a typical September evening in the Persian Gulf; hotter than a rectal
thermometer and I'm sweating like a [pedophile] at a Cub Scout meeting...

"But that's neither here nor there. The night is moonless over Baghdad
tonight, and blacker than a Steven King novel. But it's 2004,
folks, and I'm sporting the latest in night-combat technology. Namely,
hand-me-down night vision goggles (NVGs) thrown out by the fighter boys.
Additionally, my 1962 Lockheed C-130E Hercules is equipped with an obsolete,
yet, semi-effective missile warning system (MWS). The MWS conveniently makes
a nice soothing tone in your headset just before the missile explodes into
your airplane. Who says you can't polish a turd?

"At any rate, the NVGs are illuminating Baghdad International Airport like
the Las Vegas Strip during a Mike Tyson fight. These NVGs are the cat's
ass.

"But I've digressed.

"The preferred method of approach tonight is the random shallow. This
tactical maneuver allows the pilot to ingress the landing zone in an
unpredictable manner, thus exploiting the supposedly secured perimeter of
the airfield in an attempt to avoid enemy surface-to-air-missiles and small
arms fire. Personally, I wouldn't bet my pink ass on that theory but the
approach is fun as hell and that's the real reason we fly it.

"We get a visual on the runway at three miles out, drop down to one thousand
feet above the ground, still maintaining two hundred eighty knots. Now the
fun starts. It's pilot appreciation time as I descend the mighty Herk to six
hundred feet and smoothly, yet very deliberately, yank into a sixty degree
left bank, turning the aircraft ninety degrees offset from runway heading.
As soon as we roll out of the turn, I reverse turn to the right a full two
hundred seventy degrees in order to roll out aligned with the runway. Some
aeronautical genius coined this maneuver the " Ninety / Two-Seventy."
Chopping the power during the turn, I pull back on the yoke just to the
point my nether regions start to sag, bleeding off energy in order to
configure the pig for landing.

"'Flaps Fifty!, Landing Gear Down!, Before Landing Checklist!' I look over
at the copilot and he's shaking like a cat ****ting on a sheet of ice.
Looking further back at the navigator, and even through the NVGs, I can
clearly see the wet spot spreading around his crotch.

"Finally, I glance at my steely-eyed flight engineer. His eyebrows rise in
unison as a grin forms on his face. I can tell he's thinking the same thing
I am, 'Where do we find such fine young men?'

"'Flaps One Hundred!' I bark at the shaking cat. Now it's all aimpoint and
airspeed. Aviation 101, with the exception there are no
lights, I'm on NVGs, it's Baghdad, and now tracers are starting to
crisscross the black sky.

"Naturally, and not at all surprisingly, I grease the Goodyears on brick-one
of runway 33 left, bring the throttles to ground idle and
then force the props to full reverse pitch. Tonight, the sound of freedom is
my four Hamilton Standard propellers chewing through the thick, putrid,
Baghdad air. The huge, one hundred thirty thousand pound, lumbering whisper
pig comes to a lurching stop in less than two thousand feet. Let's see a
Viper do that!

"We exit the runway to a welcoming committee of government issued Army
grunts. It's time to download their beans and bullets and letters from
their sweethearts, look for war booty, and of course, urinate on Saddam's
home.

"Walking down the crew entry steps with my lowest-bidder, Beretta 92F, 9
millimeter strapped smartly to my side, I look around and thank God, not
Allah, I'm an American and I'm on the winning team. Then I thank God I'm not
in the Army.

"Knowing once again I've cheated death, I ask myself, 'What in the hell am I
doing in this mess?' Is it Duty, Honor, and Country? You bet your ass. Or
could it possibly be for the glory, the swag, and not to mention, chicks dig
the Air Medal. There's probably some truth there too. But now is not the
time to derive the complexities of the superior, cerebral properties of the
human portion of the aviator-man-machine model. It is however, time to get
out of this ****-hole .

"'Hey copilot clean yourself up! And how's 'bout the Before Starting
Engines Checklist?'

"God, I love this job!"

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 9/6/04 2:01 PM, in article , "Mike
Kanze" > wrote:

> Since Woody just asked for sea stories, I'll try to oblige. Unfortunately
> this one came to me third or fourth-hand, so its provenance is uncertain,
> thus the customary "TINS" acronym will be omitted.

Owl,

In kind...

A guy I knew in the FRS, Will "Rooster" Royster was finishing out his tour
with VA-115 just before the squadron transitioned to Hornets (and before the
Super Hornet transition too). They were at sea with CVW-5 on INDY
supporting a RIMPAC with the JMDSF. Circa 1996.

Seems that like most senior JO's or O-4 non-DH's, he drew the short stick to
drag the TDU's across the sky. Towing targets so that the small boys can
fire their CIWS. I've flown the missions myself, and I remember that I
wasn't too excited about it. Lots of droning around worrying about whether
the TDU was really 500 feet above the water and if it was sagging in the
turn or not. Occasionally, we'd tow for some foreign ship. I even towed
one for the Russians post-cold-war. In short, it was just another way of
being yanked from a bombing or ACM hop to drone around on some
administrative mission.

Anyway, such is Rooster's lot. He's droning around in a race track pattern
perpendicular to the ship's course on his first run. He give's them an
"inbound at 8 (miles)" call on the radio. The next step would be for him to
call "cleared hot" after he passes over the ship. At that point, only the
target is exposed to the live weapon, and the frigate has about 2 1/2 to 3
miles to pop the target with those DU 20mm shells. How monotonous.

He never gets that far. Shortly after getting settled wings level on the
inbound leg, he feels a THUMP, THUMP, THUMP.

Not good.

All electrical power vanishes (day/VMC). Rooster reaches behind him with
his left hand and pulls the RAT handle to deploy the air-driven generator on
the top of the left wing root. He looks over his shoulder to ensure it's
out in the breeze, but instead of the RAT on the wing, he sees that the
whole aft end of the jet is a fireball.

Really not good.

As he brings his gaze back into the cockpit, he notices that the controls
have frozen up. The airplane is starting an uncommanded roll to the right.
His B/N, LT Keith Douglas has "assumed the position." Less than a second
later, he's in the breeze watching his jet go down in smoke and flames.
They've just been shot down by the Japanese.

Here's where the story diverges a bit. The news reports that both aviators
were picked up by the Japanese and that their injuries were "non life
threatening."

In reality, LT Douglas was picked up by the Japanese, but Rooster (whose
nose was "degloved" by the microphone in his O2 mask as his helmet was
ripped from his head during the ejection) waves off the Japanese rescue
boat. He's in his raft, bloody and angry and refuses to be rescued by
anybody that just shot him down. He gets picked up by helo a few minutes
later.

Navy docs did a great job repairing him. I saw him a few months later and
couldn't even detect any scarring.

The Japanese invited he and his B/N to a reception to offer a formal
apology. He either refused to go or refused to accept it (can't remember
which). Minor diplomatic international incident. President Clinton
accepted Japan's apology.

Last I heard, Rooster was flying for United.

--Woody

[Allen Epps]

In article >, Doug \"Woody\" and
Erin Beal > wrote:

> On 9/6/04 2:01 PM, in article , "Mike
> Kanze" > wrote:
>
> > Since Woody just asked for sea stories, I'll try to oblige. Unfortunately
> > this one came to me third or fourth-hand, so its provenance is uncertain,
> > thus the customary "TINS" acronym will be omitted.
>
> Owl,
>
> In kind...
>
> A guy I knew in the FRS, Will "Rooster" Royster was finishing out his tour
> with VA-115 just before the squadron transitioned to Hornets (and before the
> Super Hornet transition too). They were at sea with CVW-5 on INDY
> supporting a RIMPAC with the JMDSF. Circa 1996.
>
> Seems that like most senior JO's or O-4 non-DH's, he drew the short stick to
> drag the TDU's across the sky. Towing targets so that the small boys can
> fire their CIWS. I've flown the missions myself, and I remember that I
> wasn't too excited about it. Lots of droning around worrying about whether
> the TDU was really 500 feet above the water and if it was sagging in the
> turn or not. Occasionally, we'd tow for some foreign ship. I even towed
> one for the Russians post-cold-war. In short, it was just another way of
> being yanked from a bombing or ACM hop to drone around on some
> administrative mission.
>
> Anyway, such is Rooster's lot. He's droning around in a race track pattern
> perpendicular to the ship's course on his first run. He give's them an
> "inbound at 8 (miles)" call on the radio. The next step would be for him to
> call "cleared hot" after he passes over the ship. At that point, only the
> target is exposed to the live weapon, and the frigate has about 2 1/2 to 3
> miles to pop the target with those DU 20mm shells. How monotonous.
>
> He never gets that far. Shortly after getting settled wings level on the
> inbound leg, he feels a THUMP, THUMP, THUMP.
>
> Not good.
>
> All electrical power vanishes (day/VMC). Rooster reaches behind him with
> his left hand and pulls the RAT handle to deploy the air-driven generator on
> the top of the left wing root. He looks over his shoulder to ensure it's
> out in the breeze, but instead of the RAT on the wing, he sees that the
> whole aft end of the jet is a fireball.
>
> Really not good.
>
> As he brings his gaze back into the cockpit, he notices that the controls
> have frozen up. The airplane is starting an uncommanded roll to the right.
> His B/N, LT Keith Douglas has "assumed the position." Less than a second
> later, he's in the breeze watching his jet go down in smoke and flames.
> They've just been shot down by the Japanese.
>
> Here's where the story diverges a bit. The news reports that both aviators
> were picked up by the Japanese and that their injuries were "non life
> threatening."
>
> In reality, LT Douglas was picked up by the Japanese, but Rooster (whose
> nose was "degloved" by the microphone in his O2 mask as his helmet was
> ripped from his head during the ejection) waves off the Japanese rescue
> boat. He's in his raft, bloody and angry and refuses to be rescued by
> anybody that just shot him down. He gets picked up by helo a few minutes
> later.
>
> Navy docs did a great job repairing him. I saw him a few months later and
> couldn't even detect any scarring.
>
> The Japanese invited he and his B/N to a reception to offer a formal
> apology. He either refused to go or refused to accept it (can't remember
> which). Minor diplomatic international incident. President Clinton
> accepted Japan's apology.
>
> Last I heard, Rooster was flying for United.
>
> --Woody
>
But he got a nice fruit basket ;) I talked to him at party at a mutual
friends house at NUW one night, nice guy and his wife is a hell of an
opera singer.
Pugs

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 9/8/04 8:11 AM, in article ,
"Allen Epps" > wrote:

> In article >, Doug \"Woody\" and
> Erin Beal > wrote:
<SNIP>
>> Last I heard, Rooster was flying for United.
>>
>> --Woody
>>
> But he got a nice fruit basket ;) I talked to him at party at a mutual
> friends house at NUW one night, nice guy and his wife is a hell of an
> opera singer.
> Pugs

Yes, I concur. Great guy. Great American. It was my impression that he
was on the A-track until this incident.

--Woody

[Mike Kanze]

Woody,

I remember reading about this one, although not in the detail you shared.
IIRC, wasn't this the very last A-6 operational loss?

Owl's rant on target-towing: It's bad enough when humans are aiming the
guns. GMGSN Murphy - and his JMSDF equivalent - crews every battery. To
someone like me schooled in the quirks of radars and black boxes it's just
plain lunacy to send a manned aircraft past a hot CIWS. You KNOW the
radar's gonna go for the most significant return up there. From time to
time this won't be the TDU. In Rooster's case it was that big ol' flying
drumstick.

Or maybe this was just payback to the account of someone's WWII-era
ancestor.

>Last I heard, Rooster was flying for United.

Hope Rooster has a secure alternative for his pension.

Owl sends.
--
Mike Kanze

"If history repeats itself, I should think we can expect the same thing
again."

- NBC softball analyst at the 2004 Summer Olympics (This one earned the Yogi
Berra Award.)


"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
...
> On 9/6/04 2:01 PM, in article , "Mike
> Kanze" > wrote:
>
>> Since Woody just asked for sea stories, I'll try to oblige.
>> Unfortunately
>> this one came to me third or fourth-hand, so its provenance is uncertain,
>> thus the customary "TINS" acronym will be omitted.
>
> Owl,
>
> In kind...
>
> A guy I knew in the FRS, Will "Rooster" Royster was finishing out his tour
> with VA-115 just before the squadron transitioned to Hornets (and before
> the
> Super Hornet transition too). They were at sea with CVW-5 on INDY
> supporting a RIMPAC with the JMDSF. Circa 1996.
>
> Seems that like most senior JO's or O-4 non-DH's, he drew the short stick
> to
> drag the TDU's across the sky. Towing targets so that the small boys can
> fire their CIWS. I've flown the missions myself, and I remember that I
> wasn't too excited about it. Lots of droning around worrying about
> whether
> the TDU was really 500 feet above the water and if it was sagging in the
> turn or not. Occasionally, we'd tow for some foreign ship. I even towed
> one for the Russians post-cold-war. In short, it was just another way of
> being yanked from a bombing or ACM hop to drone around on some
> administrative mission.
>
> Anyway, such is Rooster's lot. He's droning around in a race track
> pattern
> perpendicular to the ship's course on his first run. He give's them an
> "inbound at 8 (miles)" call on the radio. The next step would be for him
> to
> call "cleared hot" after he passes over the ship. At that point, only the
> target is exposed to the live weapon, and the frigate has about 2 1/2 to 3
> miles to pop the target with those DU 20mm shells. How monotonous.
>
> He never gets that far. Shortly after getting settled wings level on the
> inbound leg, he feels a THUMP, THUMP, THUMP.
>
> Not good.
>
> All electrical power vanishes (day/VMC). Rooster reaches behind him with
> his left hand and pulls the RAT handle to deploy the air-driven generator
> on
> the top of the left wing root. He looks over his shoulder to ensure it's
> out in the breeze, but instead of the RAT on the wing, he sees that the
> whole aft end of the jet is a fireball.
>
> Really not good.
>
> As he brings his gaze back into the cockpit, he notices that the controls
> have frozen up. The airplane is starting an uncommanded roll to the
> right.
> His B/N, LT Keith Douglas has "assumed the position." Less than a second
> later, he's in the breeze watching his jet go down in smoke and flames.
> They've just been shot down by the Japanese.
>
> Here's where the story diverges a bit. The news reports that both
> aviators
> were picked up by the Japanese and that their injuries were "non life
> threatening."
>
> In reality, LT Douglas was picked up by the Japanese, but Rooster (whose
> nose was "degloved" by the microphone in his O2 mask as his helmet was
> ripped from his head during the ejection) waves off the Japanese rescue
> boat. He's in his raft, bloody and angry and refuses to be rescued by
> anybody that just shot him down. He gets picked up by helo a few minutes
> later.
>
> Navy docs did a great job repairing him. I saw him a few months later and
> couldn't even detect any scarring.
>
> The Japanese invited he and his B/N to a reception to offer a formal
> apology. He either refused to go or refused to accept it (can't remember
> which). Minor diplomatic international incident. President Clinton
> accepted Japan's apology.
>
> Last I heard, Rooster was flying for United.
>
> --Woody
>

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 9/8/04 1:16 PM, in article , "Mike
Kanze" > wrote:

> Woody,
>
> I remember reading about this one, although not in the detail you shared.
> IIRC, wasn't this the very last A-6 operational loss?
>
> Owl's rant on target-towing: It's bad enough when humans are aiming the
> guns. GMGSN Murphy - and his JMSDF equivalent - crews every battery. To
> someone like me schooled in the quirks of radars and black boxes it's just
> plain lunacy to send a manned aircraft past a hot CIWS. You KNOW the
> radar's gonna go for the most significant return up there. From time to
> time this won't be the TDU. In Rooster's case it was that big ol' flying
> drumstick.

Good rant.

The way the pattern was designed, the CIWS wasn't SUPPOSED to be hot until
after the aircraft passed over the ship (perpendicular to the ship's
course). THEN and only then was the ship permitted to arm the gun and take
the targeting radar out of standby--at least that's the way I understood the
process.

Obviously, the knucklehead-sans on the Yuguuri (?) didn't totally understand
the process. We took revenge later by taking out one of their fishing
traulers with a sub.

The concept of the mission did make the hair stand up on the back of my neck
a bit, but I personally never had a bad experience with it, and I don't
remember of any other except for this one. These days, I think they use
contracted Lears to do the job. I've never seen a pod mounted on an S-3 or
a Hornet.

As an aside, I know that the CIWS was a really good shot. I never reeled a
target back in.

>
> Or maybe this was just payback to the account of someone's WWII-era
> ancestor.
>
>> Last I heard, Rooster was flying for United.
>
> Hope Rooster has a secure alternative for his pension.
>
> Owl sends.

Amen.

--Woody

[Mike Kanze]

Woody,

>The way the pattern was designed, the CIWS wasn't SUPPOSED to be hot until
>after the aircraft passed over the ship (perpendicular to the ship's
>course).

Clearly, Murphy-san was on duty that day.

Some random rhetoricals, all made without any knowledge of the situational
details:

* Thoroughness of the brief? (Especially when more than one language is
involved.)
* Right training device for the exercise?
* Pre-exercise affirmative demonstrated knowledge of range safety procedures
by all involved - in English?
* Cockpit indications of being high-PRF painted BEFORE the "in hot" call?
(If I had seen high-PRF before "in hot" I would have broken off immediately
and started shouting on Guard.)
* Wx and viz conditions appropriate to the exercise?
* And so on...

The answers are there, and you don't need the Home Depot guy to find them.

--
Mike Kanze

"If history repeats itself, I should think we can expect the same thing
again."

- NBC softball analyst at the 2004 Summer Olympics (This one earned the Yogi
Berra Award.)


"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
...
> On 9/8/04 1:16 PM, in article , "Mike
> Kanze" > wrote:
>
>> Woody,
>>
>> I remember reading about this one, although not in the detail you shared.
>> IIRC, wasn't this the very last A-6 operational loss?
>>
>> Owl's rant on target-towing: It's bad enough when humans are aiming the
>> guns. GMGSN Murphy - and his JMSDF equivalent - crews every battery. To
>> someone like me schooled in the quirks of radars and black boxes it's
>> just
>> plain lunacy to send a manned aircraft past a hot CIWS. You KNOW the
>> radar's gonna go for the most significant return up there. From time to
>> time this won't be the TDU. In Rooster's case it was that big ol' flying
>> drumstick.
>
> Good rant.
>
> The way the pattern was designed, the CIWS wasn't SUPPOSED to be hot until
> after the aircraft passed over the ship (perpendicular to the ship's
> course). THEN and only then was the ship permitted to arm the gun and
> take
> the targeting radar out of standby--at least that's the way I understood
> the
> process.
>
> Obviously, the knucklehead-sans on the Yuguuri (?) didn't totally
> understand
> the process. We took revenge later by taking out one of their fishing
> traulers with a sub.
>
> The concept of the mission did make the hair stand up on the back of my
> neck
> a bit, but I personally never had a bad experience with it, and I don't
> remember of any other except for this one. These days, I think they use
> contracted Lears to do the job. I've never seen a pod mounted on an S-3
> or
> a Hornet.
>
> As an aside, I know that the CIWS was a really good shot. I never reeled
> a
> target back in.
>
>>
>> Or maybe this was just payback to the account of someone's WWII-era
>> ancestor.
>>
>>> Last I heard, Rooster was flying for United.
>>
>> Hope Rooster has a secure alternative for his pension.
>>
>> Owl sends.
>
> Amen.
>
> --Woody
>

[Allen Epps]

In article >, Mike Kanze
> wrote:

> Woody,
>
> >The way the pattern was designed, the CIWS wasn't SUPPOSED to be hot until
> >after the aircraft passed over the ship (perpendicular to the ship's
> >course).
>
> Clearly, Murphy-san was on duty that day.
>
> Some random rhetoricals, all made without any knowledge of the situational
> details:
>
> snipped

> * Cockpit indications of being high-PRF painted BEFORE the "in hot" call?
> (If I had seen high-PRF before "in hot" I would have broken off immediately
> and started shouting on Guard.)
>
snipped
>
> The answers are there, and you don't need the Home Depot guy to find them.

Not to disclose anything but IIRC the Cheeze-wiz radar is way up beyond
the ECM reception range in the 'truder (and certainly the other
fighitng drumstick the Prowler)
Pugs

[Mike Kanze]

Pugs,

>Not to disclose anything but IIRC the Cheeze-wiz radar is way up beyond the
>ECM reception range in the 'truder (and certainly the other fighitng
>drumstick the Prowler)

Wouldn't surprise me.

Add to my list of rhetoricals:

* Can we effectively counter our OWN weapons in a training situation - or
otherwise?

Not an idle question, given the propensity for our stuff to wind up in other
folks' hands - like A-4s to the Argentines (the Brits must have loved us for
that one), Stingers to the Afghan guerillas or F-14s to the Shah.

Example: During the VN war, a barely feet-dry A-6B pickled a Shrike at a
NVN SAM site. The Shrike made for the juiciest emitter it could detect -
which was NOT the FanSong but the PIRAZ small boy sitting out in the Gulf of
Tonkin. Only the quick action of RED CROWN shutting down all its radars
saved it. This incident led to the "no turn shots" rule which the A-6Bs
followed from thereafter. (The passage of time has made me fuzzy on the
precise details of this one. Better info invited.)

Too bad CIWS is not optically-guided. The Intruder's sheer ugliness would
have frustrated acquisition by the R2D2-san. <g>

--
Mike Kanze

"If history repeats itself, I should think we can expect the same thing
again."

- NBC softball analyst at the 2004 Summer Olympics (This one earned the Yogi
Berra Award.)


"Allen Epps" > wrote in message
et...
> In article >, Mike Kanze
> > wrote:
>
>> Woody,
>>
>> >The way the pattern was designed, the CIWS wasn't SUPPOSED to be hot
>> >until
>> >after the aircraft passed over the ship (perpendicular to the ship's
>> >course).
>>
>> Clearly, Murphy-san was on duty that day.
>>
>> Some random rhetoricals, all made without any knowledge of the
>> situational
>> details:
>>
>> snipped
>
>> * Cockpit indications of being high-PRF painted BEFORE the "in hot" call?
>> (If I had seen high-PRF before "in hot" I would have broken off
>> immediately
>> and started shouting on Guard.)
>>
> snipped
>>
>> The answers are there, and you don't need the Home Depot guy to find
>> them.
>
> Not to disclose anything but IIRC the Cheeze-wiz radar is way up beyond
> the ECM reception range in the 'truder (and certainly the other
> fighitng drumstick the Prowler)
> Pugs

[John R Weiss]

"Mike Kanze" > wrote...
>
>>The way the pattern was designed, the CIWS wasn't SUPPOSED to be hot until
>>after the aircraft passed over the ship (perpendicular to the ship's course).
>
> Clearly, Murphy-san was on duty that day.

I spent 3 years towing targets at in A-4s at VC-8 in the late 70s, and a little
bit in A-6s at VA-165 in the late 80s. We briefed with all sorts of NATO ships
shooting all sorts of guns. IIRC, CIWS was just in OPEVAL while I was at VC-8,
and we were among the first to drag TDUs for them. I've only seen or heard of a
couple early shots (none with CIWS, except that Japanese one) in all that
time...

> Some random rhetoricals, all made without any knowledge of the situational
> details:
>
> * Thoroughness of the brief? (Especially when more than one language is
> involved.)

Probably not a factor. The early shots I am familiar with were after briefings
just as thorough as any other. More likely a cowboy gun boss or Ops O.


> * Pre-exercise affirmative demonstrated knowledge of range safety procedures
> by all involved - in English?

Again, not usually a factor. All exercises I participated in had
English-speaking attendees for all briefings. Things like "Don't shoot until
the aircraft calls 'Cleared to fire'!" and accompanying diagrams on the
chalkboard showing the tow airplane overhead the ship were standard and well
understood.


> * And so on...
>
> The answers are there, and you don't need the Home Depot guy to find them.

I haven't read the report of the Japanese incident, but it was an anomaly if
those were factors.

[Morten Lund]

Mike Kanze wrote:
> Pugs,
>
>
>>Not to disclose anything but IIRC the Cheeze-wiz radar is way up beyond the
>>ECM reception range in the 'truder (and certainly the other fighitng
>>drumstick the Prowler)
>
>
> Wouldn't surprise me.
>
> Add to my list of rhetoricals:
>
> * Can we effectively counter our OWN weapons in a training situation - or
> otherwise?
>
> Not an idle question, given the propensity for our stuff to wind up in other
> folks' hands - like A-4s to the Argentines (the Brits must have loved us for
> that one), Stingers to the Afghan guerillas or F-14s to the Shah.
>
> Example: During the VN war, a barely feet-dry A-6B pickled a Shrike at a
> NVN SAM site. The Shrike made for the juiciest emitter it could detect -
> which was NOT the FanSong but the PIRAZ small boy sitting out in the Gulf of
> Tonkin. Only the quick action of RED CROWN shutting down all its radars
> saved it. This incident led to the "no turn shots" rule which the A-6Bs
> followed from thereafter. (The passage of time has made me fuzzy on the
> precise details of this one. Better info invited.)
>
> Too bad CIWS is not optically-guided. The Intruder's sheer ugliness would
> have frustrated acquisition by the R2D2-san. <g>
>
Hmm, I thought I saw som kind of optronic device on recent pictures of
one of the latest blocks; A recent addition I'm sure, but is that for
the gunners mate, or autonomus-mode operation?

/Morten
Harpoon 4 boardgame affectionado, no real experience whatsoever

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 9/9/04 5:50 PM, in article ,
"Morten Lund" > wrote:

> Mike Kanze wrote:
>> Pugs,
<SNIP>
>>
>> Too bad CIWS is not optically-guided. The Intruder's sheer ugliness would
>> have frustrated acquisition by the R2D2-san. <g>
>>
> Hmm, I thought I saw som kind of optronic device on recent pictures of
> one of the latest blocks; A recent addition I'm sure, but is that for
> the gunners mate, or autonomus-mode operation?
>
> /Morten
> Harpoon 4 boardgame affectionado, no real experience whatsoever

I've never seen one with a lens on it.

--Woody

[Morten Lund]

Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal wrote:

> On 9/9/04 5:50 PM, in article ,
> "Morten Lund" > wrote:
>
>
>>Mike Kanze wrote:
>>
>>>Pugs,
>
> <SNIP>
>
>>>Too bad CIWS is not optically-guided. The Intruder's sheer ugliness would
>>>have frustrated acquisition by the R2D2-san. <g>
>>>
>>Hmm, I thought I saw som kind of optronic device on recent pictures of
>>one of the latest blocks; A recent addition I'm sure, but is that for
>>the gunners mate, or autonomus-mode operation?
>>
>>/Morten
>>Harpoon 4 boardgame affectionado, no real experience whatsoever
>
>
> I've never seen one with a lens on it.
>
> --Woody
>

I found one at this Loc; At least I *think* its some kind of optronic
device, could be laser for all I know

http://www.jenswilly.dk/graphics/jaas_imgs/phalanx.gif

(never mind the content of the parent page, its a spoof on a fictious
nuclear powercompany - long story, but extremely funny)

[Jim Carriere]

Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal wrote:
> On 9/9/04 5:50 PM, in article ,
> "Morten Lund" > wrote:
>
>
>>Mike Kanze wrote:
>>
>>>Pugs,
>
> <SNIP>
>
>>>Too bad CIWS is not optically-guided. The Intruder's sheer ugliness would
>>>have frustrated acquisition by the R2D2-san. <g>
>>>
>>Hmm, I thought I saw som kind of optronic device on recent pictures of
>>one of the latest blocks; A recent addition I'm sure, but is that for
>>the gunners mate, or autonomus-mode operation?
>>
>>/Morten
>>Harpoon 4 boardgame affectionado, no real experience whatsoever
>
>
> I've never seen one with a lens on it.

A few of them have a FLIR mod, I suppose the plan is for all of them
eventually.

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/weapons/wep-phal.html

I think the first time I saw one with this was only a couple years ago.

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 9/10/04 1:54 AM, in article , "Jim
Carriere" > wrote:

> Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal wrote:
>> On 9/9/04 5:50 PM, in article ,
>> "Morten Lund" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Mike Kanze wrote:
>>>
>>>> Pugs,
>>
>> <SNIP>
>>
>>>> Too bad CIWS is not optically-guided. The Intruder's sheer ugliness would
>>>> have frustrated acquisition by the R2D2-san. <g>
>>>>
>>> Hmm, I thought I saw som kind of optronic device on recent pictures of
>>> one of the latest blocks; A recent addition I'm sure, but is that for
>>> the gunners mate, or autonomus-mode operation?
>>>
>>> /Morten
>>> Harpoon 4 boardgame affectionado, no real experience whatsoever
>>
>>
>> I've never seen one with a lens on it.
>
> A few of them have a FLIR mod, I suppose the plan is for all of them
> eventually.
>
> http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/weapons/wep-phal.html
>
> I think the first time I saw one with this was only a couple years ago.
>

A little internet research suggests that the reason I haven't seen it is
because it's not on CV's yet. Looks like the FLIR/optics are for surface
targets and that as of about a year ago, it's only been on small boys.

--Woody

[Guy Alcala]

Mike Kanze wrote:

> Pugs,
>
> >Not to disclose anything but IIRC the Cheeze-wiz radar is way up beyond the
> >ECM reception range in the 'truder (and certainly the other fighitng
> >drumstick the Prowler)
>
> Wouldn't surprise me.
>
> Add to my list of rhetoricals:
>
> * Can we effectively counter our OWN weapons in a training situation - or
> otherwise?
>
> Not an idle question, given the propensity for our stuff to wind up in other
> folks' hands - like A-4s to the Argentines (the Brits must have loved us for
> that one), Stingers to the Afghan guerillas or F-14s to the Shah.
>
> Example: During the VN war, a barely feet-dry A-6B pickled a Shrike at a
> NVN SAM site. The Shrike made for the juiciest emitter it could detect -
> which was NOT the FanSong but the PIRAZ small boy sitting out in the Gulf of
> Tonkin. Only the quick action of RED CROWN shutting down all its radars
> saved it. This incident led to the "no turn shots" rule which the A-6Bs
> followed from thereafter. (The passage of time has made me fuzzy on the
> precise details of this one. Better info invited.)

I'm not sure if we're talking about the same incident, but Worden was nailed by
a Shrike in the GoT in 1972. Mission-killed her but good; I think it took her
several hours to get a radar up. Some years back I was taking a tour of her
during SF Fleet Week. The tour guide happened to be a radar ET whose job was
maintaining the SPG-55s. I'd read about the incident before this so asked him
if anyone on the ship was aware of it. He said, oh sure, it was part of the
ship's history, and there were still dents in the back of some of the SPG-55
housings from the attack.

I've always wondered if the Shrike was going for the S-band SPS-48 or the C-band
SPS-10 or SPG-55. Guess it depends what flavor of Fansong was in the area.

Guy

[Elmshoot]

I learned to Tow the TDU in VC-12 while TAD in the early 80's.
Then some one learned that I had this "skill" in my VA-196 I became the
airwing TGT expert. The deal was that there was no way a reel could be repaired
on the ship so once we birdcaged the 35,000 feet of wire on the reel we were
done for at least 3 months while the reels wer shipped back to Cubi for I lever
repairs. So I got to tow for the Connies Cheez Wiz as well as the small boys.
For the c-wiz we ran out only 10,000 feet of wire. The presentation had to be
pretty close since the radar/computer had to evaluate the TGT as a threat
otherwise it wouldn't shoot. On a perpendicular run you would actualy fly over
the bow of the ship at about 3k and hope the TDU was in the less than 500'
altitude but above the bridge hight.And would pass just aft of the ship, (lots
of kentucky windage used to figure that out!) It was a real bad deal to drag
the tgt through the ship as people had been killed in the past and needless to
say a carreer ender for the flight crews regardless of the damage inflicted.
I prefered the parallel presentation safer for all involved, ( I don't think
the black shoes had any clue how much more difficult the perp presentation was)
anyway on this particulaer run it was for the Connie.We made several cold runs
and the gunners made sure everthing was working. It was my understanding that
they had some one standing behind the Cwiz that would actually look to see were
the thing was aiming before they gave a cleared to fire to avoid the drumstick
attack. Anyway the first hot pass they fired but didn't get any hits so I set
up for a second pass. I waited til I was about 1.5 dme outbound gave a cleared
to fire the first 5 rounds went right through the TDU it did a split s into the
water with a tug on the wire felt in the plane. The radar was so good it
started to track and shoot up the wire scoreing several hit on the wire itself
! It also birdcagged the wire so the Cag gunner was happy since that was one
more that was going off the ship on the next unrep.
In the wardroom that evening I saw the gun boss and chidded him about taking 2
runs to bag the tgt. apparently it was the first time in over 5 years that it
had taken 2 runs and they were pretty much all bummed out over the situation.

I'm glad I never had to fly against the cwiz because if it worked it was
deadly.


Any way regardless of the outcome of the Cwiz shoot if there was any rounds
shot at the Tgt it was SOP to cut the wire and jettison the TDU since it may
have DU smeared all over it.


>As an aside, I know that the CIWS was a really good shot. I never reeled a
>target back in.

Then there was the A-A missle shoots with 30,000' feet of wire out being
dragged.

Sparky