Aerotow takeoff with Cirrus, aileron rudder use

[akiley]

Hi all, new forum member, new transition glider pilot as of this
spring.

I just got a checkout and have done two flights in a 1970 Standard
Cirrus that our club owns. (This Cirrus model has the full flying
elevator s/n 70 I think)

I read as much as I could find on the web, thought long and hard then
went for it. Things went well the first tow. The second tow, my
right wing touched briefly on the initial roll. First time this has
happened to me. I got it up quickly and there was no yawing, so I
continued the flight uneventfully.

So, I have a question for any experienced Cirrus pilots. I've been
told that one needs both rudder and aileron combined to get a low wing
up during initial roll on aerotow. Furthermore the POH says not to
use aileron on takeoff! I don't understand either of these things. I
can understand both rudder and aileron for the first three seconds or
so if one has no wing runner, but it seems like I should just use
rudder to keep the nose straight and aileron to keep the wings level
in general. Especially after my speed is 15kts or more. This has
always worked in a Grob 103 and an ASK21 of which I have the bulk of
my hours.

.... akiley

[Tim Taylor]

On Jul 26, 7:29*pm, akiley > wrote:
> Hi all, new forum member, new transition glider pilot as of this
> spring.
>
> I just got a checkout and have done two flights in a 1970 Standard
> Cirrus that our club owns. *(This Cirrus model has the full flying
> elevator s/n 70 I think)
>
> I read as much as I could find on the web, thought long and hard then
> went for it. *Things went well the first tow. *The second tow, my
> right wing touched briefly on the initial roll. *First time this has
> happened to me. *I got it up quickly and there was no yawing, so I
> continued the flight uneventfully.
>
> So, I have a question for any experienced Cirrus pilots. *I've been
> told that one needs both rudder and aileron combined to get a low wing
> up during initial roll on aerotow. *Furthermore the POH says not to
> use aileron on takeoff! *I don't understand either of these things. *I
> can understand both rudder and aileron for the first three seconds or
> so if one has no wing runner, *but it seems like I should just use
> rudder to keep the nose straight and aileron to keep the wings level
> in general. *Especially after my speed is 15kts or more. *This has
> always worked in a Grob 103 and an ASK21 of which I have the bulk of
> my hours.
>
> ... akiley

First some questions

1. Does this glider have the spoiler mod completed?
2, What type of tail wheel skid does it have?
3. If it is the rubber tail skid with wheel, what type of wheel does
it have? Plastic or rubber?
4. Have you pushed the glider over a very flat runway or tie-down and
checked that it tracks true and not left or right significantly?

Basic answers are with the Std. Cirrus you are going to use BOTH
ailerons and rudder. The ailerons quickly to counter act any drop and
the rudder to pick up the wing if it is dropping. The POH is 40 years
old and we have learned much since those were written.

Depending wind conditions and if your glider is straight (no tacking
to one side) I would recommend:

1. Light winds or winds straight down the runway. Stick full forward
and use both ailerons and rudder until the glider is stable on tow.
If you have enough time in gliders opening the spoilers will help.
Full open if you have the spoiler mod, half open if you do not.

2. Cross winds. Stick full back on the start of roll to plant the
tail until you get rudder authority, then go stick full forward to
bring the tail up.

If your glider does not track true and has the rubber tail wheel
assembly take it off and reattach it so that the glider rolls
straight. If you still have a plastic tail wheel get a good rubber
one and replace it (William's Soaring sells a good one), roller blade
wheels will work but not as well.

Tim
(500 hours in Std Cirrus)
(800 hours in Nimbus 2M)

[akiley]

On Jul 26, 9:49*pm, Tim Taylor > wrote:
> On Jul 26, 7:29*pm, akiley > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hi all, new forum member, new transition glider pilot as of this
> > spring.
>
> > I just got a checkout and have done two flights in a 1970 Standard
> > Cirrus that our club owns. *(This Cirrus model has the full flying
> > elevator s/n 70 I think)
>
> > I read as much as I could find on the web, thought long and hard then
> > went for it. *Things went well the first tow. *The second tow, my
> > right wing touched briefly on the initial roll. *First time this has
> > happened to me. *I got it up quickly and there was no yawing, so I
> > continued the flight uneventfully.
>
> > So, I have a question for any experienced Cirrus pilots. *I've been
> > told that one needs both rudder and aileron combined to get a low wing
> > up during initial roll on aerotow. *Furthermore the POH says not to
> > use aileron on takeoff! *I don't understand either of these things. *I
> > can understand both rudder and aileron for the first three seconds or
> > so if one has no wing runner, *but it seems like I should just use
> > rudder to keep the nose straight and aileron to keep the wings level
> > in general. *Especially after my speed is 15kts or more. *This has
> > always worked in a Grob 103 and an ASK21 of which I have the bulk of
> > my hours.
>
> > ... akiley
>
> First some questions
>
> 1. Does this glider have the spoiler mod completed?

No. Full spoiler handle back lets air under spoiler.

> 2, What type of tail wheel skid does it have?

Small yellow hard rubber wheel like a rollerblade wheel perturding
from the black skid.

> 3. If it is the rubber tail skid with wheel, what type of wheel does
> it have? Plastic or rubber? Rubber I believe.
> 4. Have you pushed the glider over a very flat runway or tie-down and
> checked that it tracks true and not left or right significantly?

No, but after aligning it very accurately with tow plane just prior to
each tow, it seems to track true.

>
> Basic answers are with the Std. Cirrus you are going to use BOTH
> ailerons and rudder. *The ailerons quickly to counter act any drop and
> the rudder to pick up the wing if it is dropping. *The POH is 40 years
> old and we have learned much since those were written.

Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal with
loosing position behind the tow?

Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
aileron authority that requires rudder?

>
> Depending wind conditions and if your glider is straight (no tacking
> to one side) I would recommend:
>
> 1. Light winds or winds straight down the runway. *Stick full forward
> and use both ailerons and rudder until the glider is stable on tow.

Won't full stick forward increase the change of a PIO? I'm currently
using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.

> If you have enough time in gliders opening the spoilers will help.
> Full open if you have the spoiler mod, half open if you do not.
>
> 2. Cross winds. *Stick full back on the start of roll to plant the
> tail until you get rudder authority, then go stick full forward to
> bring the tail up.

I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. I would worry
about timing so that a POI didn't develop.

>
> If your glider does not track true and has the rubber tail wheel
> assembly take it off and reattach it so that the glider rolls
> straight. *If you still have a plastic tail wheel get a good rubber
> one and replace it (William's Soaring sells a good one), roller blade
> wheels will work but not as well.

Thanks for the help. ... akiley

>
> Tim
> (500 hours in Std Cirrus)
> (800 hours in Nimbus 2M)

[Derek C]

On Jul 27, 2:29*am, akiley > wrote:
> Hi all, new forum member, new transition glider pilot as of this
> spring.
>
> I just got a checkout and have done two flights in a 1970 Standard
> Cirrus that our club owns. *(This Cirrus model has the full flying
> elevator s/n 70 I think)
>
> I read as much as I could find on the web, thought long and hard then
> went for it. *Things went well the first tow. *The second tow, my
> right wing touched briefly on the initial roll. *First time this has
> happened to me. *I got it up quickly and there was no yawing, so I
> continued the flight uneventfully.
>
> So, I have a question for any experienced Cirrus pilots. *I've been
> told that one needs both rudder and aileron combined to get a low wing
> up during initial roll on aerotow. *Furthermore the POH says not to
> use aileron on takeoff! *I don't understand either of these things. *I
> can understand both rudder and aileron for the first three seconds or
> so if one has no wing runner, *but it seems like I should just use
> rudder to keep the nose straight and aileron to keep the wings level
> in general. *Especially after my speed is 15kts or more. *This has
> always worked in a Grob 103 and an ASK21 of which I have the bulk of
> my hours.
>
The ailerons on a Standard Cirrus are not particularly effective until
you can get the tail up and the glider running on the mainwheel. The
rudder is more effective at picking up a dropping wing at first.
Starting the ground run with the airbrakes open seems to help (but
warn the tug pilot that you are doing this for a good reason first).
Put them away as soon as you have the tail up and reasonable lateral
control. Does the Cirrus have a tail skid or a tailwheel? Having a fit
and competent wing runner on the the downwind tip helps a lot in a
light crosswind.

Derek C

[Tim Taylor]

On Jul 26, 8:18*pm, akiley > wrote:
> On Jul 26, 9:49*pm, Tim Taylor > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 26, 7:29*pm, akiley > wrote:
>
> > > Hi all, new forum member, new transition glider pilot as of this
> > > spring.
>
> > > I just got a checkout and have done two flights in a 1970 Standard
> > > Cirrus that our club owns. *(This Cirrus model has the full flying
> > > elevator s/n 70 I think)
>
> > > I read as much as I could find on the web, thought long and hard then
> > > went for it. *Things went well the first tow. *The second tow, my
> > > right wing touched briefly on the initial roll. *First time this has
> > > happened to me. *I got it up quickly and there was no yawing, so I
> > > continued the flight uneventfully.
>
> > > So, I have a question for any experienced Cirrus pilots. *I've been
> > > told that one needs both rudder and aileron combined to get a low wing
> > > up during initial roll on aerotow. *Furthermore the POH says not to
> > > use aileron on takeoff! *I don't understand either of these things. *I
> > > can understand both rudder and aileron for the first three seconds or
> > > so if one has no wing runner, *but it seems like I should just use
> > > rudder to keep the nose straight and aileron to keep the wings level
> > > in general. *Especially after my speed is 15kts or more. *This has
> > > always worked in a Grob 103 and an ASK21 of which I have the bulk of
> > > my hours.
>
> > > ... akiley
>
> > First some questions
>
> > 1. Does this glider have the spoiler mod completed?
>
> No. *Full spoiler handle back lets air under spoiler.
>
> > 2, What type of tail wheel skid does it have?
>
> Small yellow hard rubber wheel like a rollerblade wheel perturding
> from the black skid.
>
> > 3. If it is the rubber tail skid with wheel, what type of wheel does
> > it have? Plastic or rubber? *Rubber I believe.
> > 4. Have you pushed the glider over a very flat runway or tie-down and
> > checked that it tracks true and not left or right significantly?
>
> No, but after aligning it very accurately with tow plane just prior to
> each tow, it seems to track true.
>
>
>
> > Basic answers are with the Std. Cirrus you are going to use BOTH
> > ailerons and rudder. *The ailerons quickly to counter act any drop and
> > the rudder to pick up the wing if it is dropping. *The POH is 40 years
> > old and we have learned much since those were written.
>
> Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal with
> loosing position behind the tow?
>
> Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
> aileron authority that requires rudder?
>
>
>
> > Depending wind conditions and if your glider is straight (no tacking
> > to one side) I would recommend:
>
> > 1. Light winds or winds straight down the runway. *Stick full forward
> > and use both ailerons and rudder until the glider is stable on tow.
>
> Won't full stick forward increase the change of a PIO? *I'm currently
> using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.
>
> > If you have enough time in gliders opening the spoilers will help.
> > Full open if you have the spoiler mod, half open if you do not.
>
> > 2. Cross winds. *Stick full back on the start of roll to plant the
> > tail until you get rudder authority, then go stick full forward to
> > bring the tail up.
>
> I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. *I would worry
> about timing so that a POI didn't develop.
>
>
>
> > If your glider does not track true and has the rubber tail wheel
> > assembly take it off and reattach it so that the glider rolls
> > straight. *If you still have a plastic tail wheel get a good rubber
> > one and replace it (William's Soaring sells a good one), roller blade
> > wheels will work but not as well.
>
> Thanks for the help. *... akiley
>
>
>
> > Tim
> > (500 hours in Std Cirrus)
> > (800 hours in Nimbus 2M)


1. Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal
with
loosing position behind the tow?

You would if you leave the rudder in too long. I teach new pilots to
think of it as boxing. Most of the inputs are jabs, in for a fraction
of second and out again. The goal is to keep the glider balanced.
Think of it as trying to balance on top of a ball.

2. Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
aileron authority that requires rudder?

The rudder is in and out to keep directional stability and to pick up
a wing if it gets to low. The Std Cirrus has a CG hook, you can't let
it turn much or it will want to break to one side.

3. Won't full stick forward increase the chance of a PIO? *I'm
currently
using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.

No, the full stick is just to raise the tail, once it is up you will
be about neutral stick with slight back pressure to rotate. The PIO
in all flying tails comes if you are not steady at that point.

4. I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. *I would
worry
about timing so that a POI didn't develop.

Again the PIO only comes once you are in the air and if you are not
gentle on the controls. Often it is best to rest your arm on your lap
to minimize the motion in your hand.

[Derek C]

On Jul 27, 6:02*am, Tim Taylor > wrote:
> On Jul 26, 8:18*pm, akiley > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 26, 9:49*pm, Tim Taylor > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 26, 7:29*pm, akiley > wrote:
>
> > > > Hi all, new forum member, new transition glider pilot as of this
> > > > spring.
>
> > > > I just got a checkout and have done two flights in a 1970 Standard
> > > > Cirrus that our club owns. *(This Cirrus model has the full flying
> > > > elevator s/n 70 I think)
>
> > > > I read as much as I could find on the web, thought long and hard then
> > > > went for it. *Things went well the first tow. *The second tow, my
> > > > right wing touched briefly on the initial roll. *First time this has
> > > > happened to me. *I got it up quickly and there was no yawing, so I
> > > > continued the flight uneventfully.
>
> > > > So, I have a question for any experienced Cirrus pilots. *I've been
> > > > told that one needs both rudder and aileron combined to get a low wing
> > > > up during initial roll on aerotow. *Furthermore the POH says not to
> > > > use aileron on takeoff! *I don't understand either of these things. *I
> > > > can understand both rudder and aileron for the first three seconds or
> > > > so if one has no wing runner, *but it seems like I should just use
> > > > rudder to keep the nose straight and aileron to keep the wings level
> > > > in general. *Especially after my speed is 15kts or more. *This has
> > > > always worked in a Grob 103 and an ASK21 of which I have the bulk of
> > > > my hours.
>
> > > > ... akiley
>
> > > First some questions
>
> > > 1. Does this glider have the spoiler mod completed?
>
> > No. *Full spoiler handle back lets air under spoiler.
>
> > > 2, What type of tail wheel skid does it have?
>
> > Small yellow hard rubber wheel like a rollerblade wheel perturding
> > from the black skid.
>
> > > 3. If it is the rubber tail skid with wheel, what type of wheel does
> > > it have? Plastic or rubber? *Rubber I believe.
> > > 4. Have you pushed the glider over a very flat runway or tie-down and
> > > checked that it tracks true and not left or right significantly?
>
> > No, but after aligning it very accurately with tow plane just prior to
> > each tow, it seems to track true.
>
> > > Basic answers are with the Std. Cirrus you are going to use BOTH
> > > ailerons and rudder. *The ailerons quickly to counter act any drop and
> > > the rudder to pick up the wing if it is dropping. *The POH is 40 years
> > > old and we have learned much since those were written.
>
> > Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal with
> > loosing position behind the tow?
>
> > Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
> > aileron authority that requires rudder?
>
> > > Depending wind conditions and if your glider is straight (no tacking
> > > to one side) I would recommend:
>
> > > 1. Light winds or winds straight down the runway. *Stick full forward
> > > and use both ailerons and rudder until the glider is stable on tow.
>
> > Won't full stick forward increase the change of a PIO? *I'm currently
> > using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.
>
> > > If you have enough time in gliders opening the spoilers will help.
> > > Full open if you have the spoiler mod, half open if you do not.
>
> > > 2. Cross winds. *Stick full back on the start of roll to plant the
> > > tail until you get rudder authority, then go stick full forward to
> > > bring the tail up.
>
> > I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. *I would worry
> > about timing so that a POI didn't develop.
>
> > > If your glider does not track true and has the rubber tail wheel
> > > assembly take it off and reattach it so that the glider rolls
> > > straight. *If you still have a plastic tail wheel get a good rubber
> > > one and replace it (William's Soaring sells a good one), roller blade
> > > wheels will work but not as well.
>
> > Thanks for the help. *... akiley
>
> > > Tim
> > > (500 hours in Std Cirrus)
> > > (800 hours in Nimbus 2M)
>
> 1. Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal
> with
> loosing position behind the tow?
>
> You would if you leave the rudder in too long. *I teach new pilots to
> think of it as boxing. *Most of the inputs are jabs, in for a fraction
> of second and out again. *The goal is to keep the glider balanced.
> Think of it as trying to balance on top of a ball.
>
> 2. Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
> *aileron authority that requires rudder?
>
> The rudder is in and out to keep directional stability and to pick up
> a wing if it gets to low. *The Std Cirrus has a CG hook, you can't let
> it turn much or it will want to break to one side.
>
> 3. Won't full stick forward increase the chance of a PIO? *I'm
> currently
> using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.
>
> No, the full stick is just to raise the tail, once it is up you will
> be about neutral stick with slight back pressure to rotate. *The PIO
> in all flying tails comes if you are not steady at that point.
>
> 4. I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. *I would
> worry
> about timing so that a POI didn't develop.
>
> Again the PIO only comes once you are in the air and if you are not
> gentle on the controls. Often it is best to rest your arm on your lap
> to minimize the motion in your hand.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I would not start with the stick hard forward in a Std Cirrus.
Slightly forward of centre seems to give a good compromise between
keeping the tailwheel or skid on the ground to keep it initially
running straight and then getting the tail up. If you winch launch the
glider, holding the stick hard forward can risk an elevator stall on
rotation.

Derek C

[Eric Greenwell]

On 7/26/2010 6:49 PM, Tim Taylor wrote:
>
> 1. Light winds or winds straight down the runway. Stick full forward
> and use both ailerons and rudder until the glider is stable on tow.
> If you have enough time in gliders opening the spoilers will help.
> Full open if you have the spoiler mod, half open if you do not.
>

I suggest using full back stick in #1, same as in #2 below. It does no
harm, and keeps the procedures the same for winds from any direction.
> 2. Cross winds. Stick full back on the start of roll to plant the
> tail until you get rudder authority, then go stick full forward to
> bring the tail up.
>

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)

- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

[Bruce]

OK - I have a similar serial number Std Cirrus.

Quite a lot less time in it than Tim though.

My experience is - use both aileron and rudder.
With a tail wheel it helps to keep the tail down for the first part of
the run (stick aft of neutral - but no need to hold hard back) that way
the glider tracks much straighter.
In the initial part of the run the ailerons are very ineffectual and
large deflections can stall them.

So - I would agree with prior advice in general. What works for me is to
use rudder and aileron in inverse proportion as the speed increases. By
the time you are at flying speed you should be flying co-ordinated.
At very low speed you will be wanting to use rudder a lot more than
ailerons.

Using the airbrakes on the initial part of the run means the ailerons
are effective far earlier as they divert airflow over the top of the
aileron. Don't try to put them away too close to flying speed - you
might find yourself with a balloon and PIO.

Particularly for winch launching it is a poor idea to use full forward
elevator on a full flying elevator Cirrus on the initial run. You run
the risk of stalling the elevator. Particularly if the pilot is light
and / or the CG is aft. Also any contol held at the stop limits the
available actions (you can only move it one way...)

My Cirrus has the CG very far aft, and is perfectly controllable with
the stick 60-70% forward on a winch launch. On aerotow I hold some aft
pressure till I feel the controls bite then smoothly forward till the
tail comes up. The last thing you want is to be attached to a CG tow
hook pivoting around the main wheel at low speed with big control
deflections.

As Tim said rudder inputs should be a brief deflection to pick a wing up
then back to whatever was tracking you straight - this may be quite a
large deflection in the case of a strong cross wind.

Bruce

On 2010/07/27 7:02 AM, Tim Taylor wrote:
> On Jul 26, 8:18 pm, > wrote:
>> On Jul 26, 9:49 pm, Tim > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jul 26, 7:29 pm, > wrote:
>>
>>>> Hi all, new forum member, new transition glider pilot as of this
>>>> spring.
>>
>>>> I just got a checkout and have done two flights in a 1970 Standard
>>>> Cirrus that our club owns. (This Cirrus model has the full flying
>>>> elevator s/n 70 I think)
>>
>>>> I read as much as I could find on the web, thought long and hard then
>>>> went for it. Things went well the first tow. The second tow, my
>>>> right wing touched briefly on the initial roll. First time this has
>>>> happened to me. I got it up quickly and there was no yawing, so I
>>>> continued the flight uneventfully.
>>
>>>> So, I have a question for any experienced Cirrus pilots. I've been
>>>> told that one needs both rudder and aileron combined to get a low wing
>>>> up during initial roll on aerotow. Furthermore the POH says not to
>>>> use aileron on takeoff! I don't understand either of these things. I
>>>> can understand both rudder and aileron for the first three seconds or
>>>> so if one has no wing runner, but it seems like I should just use
>>>> rudder to keep the nose straight and aileron to keep the wings level
>>>> in general. Especially after my speed is 15kts or more. This has
>>>> always worked in a Grob 103 and an ASK21 of which I have the bulk of
>>>> my hours.
>>
>>>> ... akiley
>>
>>> First some questions
>>
>>> 1. Does this glider have the spoiler mod completed?
>>
>> No. Full spoiler handle back lets air under spoiler.
>>
>>> 2, What type of tail wheel skid does it have?
>>
>> Small yellow hard rubber wheel like a rollerblade wheel perturding
>> from the black skid.
>>
>>> 3. If it is the rubber tail skid with wheel, what type of wheel does
>>> it have? Plastic or rubber? Rubber I believe.
>>> 4. Have you pushed the glider over a very flat runway or tie-down and
>>> checked that it tracks true and not left or right significantly?
>>
>> No, but after aligning it very accurately with tow plane just prior to
>> each tow, it seems to track true.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Basic answers are with the Std. Cirrus you are going to use BOTH
>>> ailerons and rudder. The ailerons quickly to counter act any drop and
>>> the rudder to pick up the wing if it is dropping. The POH is 40 years
>>> old and we have learned much since those were written.
>>
>> Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal with
>> loosing position behind the tow?
>>
>> Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
>> aileron authority that requires rudder?
>>
>>
>>
>>> Depending wind conditions and if your glider is straight (no tacking
>>> to one side) I would recommend:
>>
>>> 1. Light winds or winds straight down the runway. Stick full forward
>>> and use both ailerons and rudder until the glider is stable on tow.
>>
>> Won't full stick forward increase the change of a PIO? I'm currently
>> using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.
>>
>>> If you have enough time in gliders opening the spoilers will help.
>>> Full open if you have the spoiler mod, half open if you do not.
>>
>>> 2. Cross winds. Stick full back on the start of roll to plant the
>>> tail until you get rudder authority, then go stick full forward to
>>> bring the tail up.
>>
>> I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. I would worry
>> about timing so that a POI didn't develop.
>>
>>
>>
>>> If your glider does not track true and has the rubber tail wheel
>>> assembly take it off and reattach it so that the glider rolls
>>> straight. If you still have a plastic tail wheel get a good rubber
>>> one and replace it (William's Soaring sells a good one), roller blade
>>> wheels will work but not as well.
>>
>> Thanks for the help. ... akiley
>>
>>
>>
>>> Tim
>>> (500 hours in Std Cirrus)
>>> (800 hours in Nimbus 2M)
>
>
> 1. Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal
> with
> loosing position behind the tow?
>
> You would if you leave the rudder in too long. I teach new pilots to
> think of it as boxing. Most of the inputs are jabs, in for a fraction
> of second and out again. The goal is to keep the glider balanced.
> Think of it as trying to balance on top of a ball.
>
> 2. Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
> aileron authority that requires rudder?
>
> The rudder is in and out to keep directional stability and to pick up
> a wing if it gets to low. The Std Cirrus has a CG hook, you can't let
> it turn much or it will want to break to one side.
>
> 3. Won't full stick forward increase the chance of a PIO? I'm
> currently
> using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.
>
> No, the full stick is just to raise the tail, once it is up you will
> be about neutral stick with slight back pressure to rotate. The PIO
> in all flying tails comes if you are not steady at that point.
>
> 4. I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. I would
> worry
> about timing so that a POI didn't develop.
>
> Again the PIO only comes once you are in the air and if you are not
> gentle on the controls. Often it is best to rest your arm on your lap
> to minimize the motion in your hand.
>
>
>
>


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

[KevinFinke]

Perhaps a slightly different take on this....

Akiley,

Part of learning a new type is learning how much and when to apply the
inputs. You said it was only your second flight in the ship? Sounds
like you recovered quickly and didn't really have any problems. All
the very detailed discussion is useful to a point, but you might end
up over analyzing and overthinking the problem. If you continue to
drop a wing and struggle with it, then it might be useful to pull an
instructor in and help you diagnose and correct the problem. I'm more
inclined to believe it's the natural process of learning a new
sailplane. Sounds to me like you're doing well and whatever
instinctive and natural responses you had, were sufficient to raise
the wing and keep you in control.

This isn't to discount anything said by others. It's all good advice.
And using a rudder to pick up the wing will help when you move up into
even longer spanned ships.

-Kevin

[johngalloway[_2_]]

I used to have a share in an early Std Cirrus (pre-washout change)
that had a particularly difficult case of poor low speed aileron
control and we used the open airbrake technique as well as lots of
rudder to keep the wings level. Many years later a friend and I
rented the same glider for a year and my friend put mylar seals over
the top and bottom surface aileron gaps (instead of the original top
surface only tape) and also installed mylar rudder seals. To my great
surprise the ground run aileron control was greatly improved -
transformed in fact - not only that but it changed from being a
vicious little spinner to rather benign at the stall.

I suspect that it is something to do with the large draggy lower hinge
line gap when the aileron is at full up deflection.

John Galloway

[Bruce]

On 2010/07/27 12:23 PM, johngalloway wrote:
> I used to have a share in an early Std Cirrus (pre-washout change)
> that had a particularly difficult case of poor low speed aileron
> control and we used the open airbrake technique as well as lots of
> rudder to keep the wings level. Many years later a friend and I
> rented the same glider for a year and my friend put mylar seals over
> the top and bottom surface aileron gaps (instead of the original top
> surface only tape) and also installed mylar rudder seals. To my great
> surprise the ground run aileron control was greatly improved -
> transformed in fact - not only that but it changed from being a
> vicious little spinner to rather benign at the stall.
>
> I suspect that it is something to do with the large draggy lower hinge
> line gap when the aileron is at full up deflection.
>
> John Galloway
>
Hi John

The mylar did indeed improve/transform the ailerons.
For what it is worth mine is #57 - low washout all flying elevator
model. I did try flying her once without any aileron tape - this is
definitely not recommended. Upper surface tape improves things and the
mylar top and bottom makes a substantial improvement over that.

Bruce


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

[Gary Boggs]

At slow speed, in the first part of the take off roll, you might
actually be stalling the wing with full aileron deflection, causing it
to drop even more. I flew an open Jantar for a long time and it
worked much better to only use small stick deflections to keep the
wing from stalling until the speed comes up a bit

Boggs.

[akiley]

On Jul 27, 1:02*am, Tim Taylor > wrote:
> On Jul 26, 8:18*pm, akiley > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 26, 9:49*pm, Tim Taylor > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 26, 7:29*pm, akiley > wrote:
>
> > > > Hi all, new forum member, new transition glider pilot as of this
> > > > spring.
>
> > > > I just got a checkout and have done two flights in a 1970 Standard
> > > > Cirrus that our club owns. *(This Cirrus model has the full flying
> > > > elevator s/n 70 I think)
>
> > > > I read as much as I could find on the web, thought long and hard then
> > > > went for it. *Things went well the first tow. *The second tow, my
> > > > right wing touched briefly on the initial roll. *First time this has
> > > > happened to me. *I got it up quickly and there was no yawing, so I
> > > > continued the flight uneventfully.
>
> > > > So, I have a question for any experienced Cirrus pilots. *I've been
> > > > told that one needs both rudder and aileron combined to get a low wing
> > > > up during initial roll on aerotow. *Furthermore the POH says not to
> > > > use aileron on takeoff! *I don't understand either of these things. *I
> > > > can understand both rudder and aileron for the first three seconds or
> > > > so if one has no wing runner, *but it seems like I should just use
> > > > rudder to keep the nose straight and aileron to keep the wings level
> > > > in general. *Especially after my speed is 15kts or more. *This has
> > > > always worked in a Grob 103 and an ASK21 of which I have the bulk of
> > > > my hours.
>
> > > > ... akiley
>
> > > First some questions
>
> > > 1. Does this glider have the spoiler mod completed?
>
> > No. *Full spoiler handle back lets air under spoiler.
>
> > > 2, What type of tail wheel skid does it have?
>
> > Small yellow hard rubber wheel like a rollerblade wheel perturding
> > from the black skid.
>
> > > 3. If it is the rubber tail skid with wheel, what type of wheel does
> > > it have? Plastic or rubber? *Rubber I believe.
> > > 4. Have you pushed the glider over a very flat runway or tie-down and
> > > checked that it tracks true and not left or right significantly?
>
> > No, but after aligning it very accurately with tow plane just prior to
> > each tow, it seems to track true.
>
> > > Basic answers are with the Std. Cirrus you are going to use BOTH
> > > ailerons and rudder. *The ailerons quickly to counter act any drop and
> > > the rudder to pick up the wing if it is dropping. *The POH is 40 years
> > > old and we have learned much since those were written.
>
> > Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal with
> > loosing position behind the tow?
>
> > Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
> > aileron authority that requires rudder?
>
> > > Depending wind conditions and if your glider is straight (no tacking
> > > to one side) I would recommend:
>
> > > 1. Light winds or winds straight down the runway. *Stick full forward
> > > and use both ailerons and rudder until the glider is stable on tow.
>
> > Won't full stick forward increase the change of a PIO? *I'm currently
> > using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.
>
> > > If you have enough time in gliders opening the spoilers will help.
> > > Full open if you have the spoiler mod, half open if you do not.
>
> > > 2. Cross winds. *Stick full back on the start of roll to plant the
> > > tail until you get rudder authority, then go stick full forward to
> > > bring the tail up.
>
> > I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. *I would worry
> > about timing so that a POI didn't develop.
>
> > > If your glider does not track true and has the rubber tail wheel
> > > assembly take it off and reattach it so that the glider rolls
> > > straight. *If you still have a plastic tail wheel get a good rubber
> > > one and replace it (William's Soaring sells a good one), roller blade
> > > wheels will work but not as well.
>
> > Thanks for the help. *... akiley
>
> > > Tim
> > > (500 hours in Std Cirrus)
> > > (800 hours in Nimbus 2M)
>
> 1. Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal
> with
> loosing position behind the tow?
>
> You would if you leave the rudder in too long. *I teach new pilots to
> think of it as boxing. *Most of the inputs are jabs, in for a fraction
> of second and out again. *The goal is to keep the glider balanced.
> Think of it as trying to balance on top of a ball.
>
> 2. Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
> *aileron authority that requires rudder?
>
> The rudder is in and out to keep directional stability and to pick up
> a wing if it gets to low. *The Std Cirrus has a CG hook, you can't let
> it turn much or it will want to break to one side.
>
> 3. Won't full stick forward increase the chance of a PIO? *I'm
> currently
> using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.
>
> No, the full stick is just to raise the tail, once it is up you will
> be about neutral stick with slight back pressure to rotate. *The PIO
> in all flying tails comes if you are not steady at that point.
>
> 4. I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. *I would
> worry
> about timing so that a POI didn't develop.
>
> Again the PIO only comes once you are in the air and if you are not
> gentle on the controls. Often it is best to rest your arm on your lap
> to minimize the motion in your hand.

Thanks for those very helpful ways to visualize. Boxing jabs and
balancing on the ball.

I videotaped one of our club members Cirrus aerotows recently. I shot
from directly behind centered with the tow directly ahead. He was
airborne in 6 seconds! There was a little headwind, plus our Pawnee
accelerates quickly. Makes you realize how fast things happen. I
guess the good news is that you're at flying speed very quickly.

In an unrelated diversion. Do you know how I can touch up the black
paint that is flaking off the narrow edge of the glare shield that
faces the pilot? It appears to be aluminum, and this edge is seen
when the canopy is closed just above and wrapping around the
instruments. Someone said a waterproof Magic marker for temporary
touch up. Sounds a bit crude to me. Sharpie"s black is more of a
deep purple.

.... akiley

[Tim Taylor]

On Jul 27, 10:15*am, akiley > wrote:
> On Jul 27, 1:02*am, Tim Taylor > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 26, 8:18*pm, akiley > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 26, 9:49*pm, Tim Taylor > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 26, 7:29*pm, akiley > wrote:
>
> > > > > Hi all, new forum member, new transition glider pilot as of this
> > > > > spring.
>
> > > > > I just got a checkout and have done two flights in a 1970 Standard
> > > > > Cirrus that our club owns. *(This Cirrus model has the full flying
> > > > > elevator s/n 70 I think)
>
> > > > > I read as much as I could find on the web, thought long and hard then
> > > > > went for it. *Things went well the first tow. *The second tow, my
> > > > > right wing touched briefly on the initial roll. *First time this has
> > > > > happened to me. *I got it up quickly and there was no yawing, so I
> > > > > continued the flight uneventfully.
>
> > > > > So, I have a question for any experienced Cirrus pilots. *I've been
> > > > > told that one needs both rudder and aileron combined to get a low wing
> > > > > up during initial roll on aerotow. *Furthermore the POH says not to
> > > > > use aileron on takeoff! *I don't understand either of these things. *I
> > > > > can understand both rudder and aileron for the first three seconds or
> > > > > so if one has no wing runner, *but it seems like I should just use
> > > > > rudder to keep the nose straight and aileron to keep the wings level
> > > > > in general. *Especially after my speed is 15kts or more. *This has
> > > > > always worked in a Grob 103 and an ASK21 of which I have the bulk of
> > > > > my hours.
>
> > > > > ... akiley
>
> > > > First some questions
>
> > > > 1. Does this glider have the spoiler mod completed?
>
> > > No. *Full spoiler handle back lets air under spoiler.
>
> > > > 2, What type of tail wheel skid does it have?
>
> > > Small yellow hard rubber wheel like a rollerblade wheel perturding
> > > from the black skid.
>
> > > > 3. If it is the rubber tail skid with wheel, what type of wheel does
> > > > it have? Plastic or rubber? *Rubber I believe.
> > > > 4. Have you pushed the glider over a very flat runway or tie-down and
> > > > checked that it tracks true and not left or right significantly?
>
> > > No, but after aligning it very accurately with tow plane just prior to
> > > each tow, it seems to track true.
>
> > > > Basic answers are with the Std. Cirrus you are going to use BOTH
> > > > ailerons and rudder. *The ailerons quickly to counter act any drop and
> > > > the rudder to pick up the wing if it is dropping. *The POH is 40 years
> > > > old and we have learned much since those were written.
>
> > > Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal with
> > > loosing position behind the tow?
>
> > > Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
> > > aileron authority that requires rudder?
>
> > > > Depending wind conditions and if your glider is straight (no tacking
> > > > to one side) I would recommend:
>
> > > > 1. Light winds or winds straight down the runway. *Stick full forward
> > > > and use both ailerons and rudder until the glider is stable on tow.
>
> > > Won't full stick forward increase the change of a PIO? *I'm currently
> > > using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.
>
> > > > If you have enough time in gliders opening the spoilers will help.
> > > > Full open if you have the spoiler mod, half open if you do not.
>
> > > > 2. Cross winds. *Stick full back on the start of roll to plant the
> > > > tail until you get rudder authority, then go stick full forward to
> > > > bring the tail up.
>
> > > I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. *I would worry
> > > about timing so that a POI didn't develop.
>
> > > > If your glider does not track true and has the rubber tail wheel
> > > > assembly take it off and reattach it so that the glider rolls
> > > > straight. *If you still have a plastic tail wheel get a good rubber
> > > > one and replace it (William's Soaring sells a good one), roller blade
> > > > wheels will work but not as well.
>
> > > Thanks for the help. *... akiley
>
> > > > Tim
> > > > (500 hours in Std Cirrus)
> > > > (800 hours in Nimbus 2M)
>
> > 1. Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal
> > with
> > loosing position behind the tow?
>
> > You would if you leave the rudder in too long. *I teach new pilots to
> > think of it as boxing. *Most of the inputs are jabs, in for a fraction
> > of second and out again. *The goal is to keep the glider balanced.
> > Think of it as trying to balance on top of a ball.
>
> > 2. Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
> > *aileron authority that requires rudder?
>
> > The rudder is in and out to keep directional stability and to pick up
> > a wing if it gets to low. *The Std Cirrus has a CG hook, you can't let
> > it turn much or it will want to break to one side.
>
> > 3. Won't full stick forward increase the chance of a PIO? *I'm
> > currently
> > using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.
>
> > No, the full stick is just to raise the tail, once it is up you will
> > be about neutral stick with slight back pressure to rotate. *The PIO
> > in all flying tails comes if you are not steady at that point.
>
> > 4. I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. *I would
> > worry
> > about timing so that a POI didn't develop.
>
> > Again the PIO only comes once you are in the air and if you are not
> > gentle on the controls. Often it is best to rest your arm on your lap
> > to minimize the motion in your hand.
>
> Thanks for those very helpful ways to visualize. *Boxing jabs and
> balancing on the ball.
>
> I videotaped one of our club members Cirrus aerotows recently. *I shot
> from directly behind centered with the tow directly ahead. *He was
> airborne in 6 seconds! *There was a little headwind, plus our Pawnee
> accelerates quickly. *Makes you realize how fast things happen. *I
> guess the good news is that you're at flying speed very quickly.
>
> In an unrelated diversion. *Do you know how I can touch up the black
> paint that is flaking off the narrow edge of the glare shield that
> faces the pilot? *It appears to be aluminum, and this edge is seen
> when the canopy is closed just above and wrapping around the
> instruments. *Someone said a waterproof Magic marker for temporary
> touch up. *Sounds a bit crude to me. *Sharpie"s black is more of a
> deep purple.
>
> ... akiley

Best solution is to cover the entire glare shield with sticky back
black felt. About a yard will do. Send me an e-mail and I can forward
a photo of my Ventus 2 taken a few days ago. I believe Richard at
Craggy Aero my have some in stock, if not I have a few yards on the
self.

[Craig[_2_]]

On Jul 27, 9:15*am, akiley > wrote:
> On Jul 27, 1:02*am, Tim Taylor > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 26, 8:18*pm, akiley > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 26, 9:49*pm, Tim Taylor > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 26, 7:29*pm, akiley > wrote:
>
> > > > > Hi all, new forum member, new transition glider pilot as of this
> > > > > spring.
>
> > > > > I just got a checkout and have done two flights in a 1970 Standard
> > > > > Cirrus that our club owns. *(This Cirrus model has the full flying
> > > > > elevator s/n 70 I think)
>
> > > > > I read as much as I could find on the web, thought long and hard then
> > > > > went for it. *Things went well the first tow. *The second tow, my
> > > > > right wing touched briefly on the initial roll. *First time this has
> > > > > happened to me. *I got it up quickly and there was no yawing, so I
> > > > > continued the flight uneventfully.
>
> > > > > So, I have a question for any experienced Cirrus pilots. *I've been
> > > > > told that one needs both rudder and aileron combined to get a low wing
> > > > > up during initial roll on aerotow. *Furthermore the POH says not to
> > > > > use aileron on takeoff! *I don't understand either of these things. *I
> > > > > can understand both rudder and aileron for the first three seconds or
> > > > > so if one has no wing runner, *but it seems like I should just use
> > > > > rudder to keep the nose straight and aileron to keep the wings level
> > > > > in general. *Especially after my speed is 15kts or more. *This has
> > > > > always worked in a Grob 103 and an ASK21 of which I have the bulk of
> > > > > my hours.
>
> > > > > ... akiley
>
> > > > First some questions
>
> > > > 1. Does this glider have the spoiler mod completed?
>
> > > No. *Full spoiler handle back lets air under spoiler.
>
> > > > 2, What type of tail wheel skid does it have?
>
> > > Small yellow hard rubber wheel like a rollerblade wheel perturding
> > > from the black skid.
>
> > > > 3. If it is the rubber tail skid with wheel, what type of wheel does
> > > > it have? Plastic or rubber? *Rubber I believe.
> > > > 4. Have you pushed the glider over a very flat runway or tie-down and
> > > > checked that it tracks true and not left or right significantly?
>
> > > No, but after aligning it very accurately with tow plane just prior to
> > > each tow, it seems to track true.
>
> > > > Basic answers are with the Std. Cirrus you are going to use BOTH
> > > > ailerons and rudder. *The ailerons quickly to counter act any drop and
> > > > the rudder to pick up the wing if it is dropping. *The POH is 40 years
> > > > old and we have learned much since those were written.
>
> > > Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal with
> > > loosing position behind the tow?
>
> > > Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
> > > aileron authority that requires rudder?
>
> > > > Depending wind conditions and if your glider is straight (no tacking
> > > > to one side) I would recommend:
>
> > > > 1. Light winds or winds straight down the runway. *Stick full forward
> > > > and use both ailerons and rudder until the glider is stable on tow.
>
> > > Won't full stick forward increase the change of a PIO? *I'm currently
> > > using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.
>
> > > > If you have enough time in gliders opening the spoilers will help.
> > > > Full open if you have the spoiler mod, half open if you do not.
>
> > > > 2. Cross winds. *Stick full back on the start of roll to plant the
> > > > tail until you get rudder authority, then go stick full forward to
> > > > bring the tail up.
>
> > > I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. *I would worry
> > > about timing so that a POI didn't develop.
>
> > > > If your glider does not track true and has the rubber tail wheel
> > > > assembly take it off and reattach it so that the glider rolls
> > > > straight. *If you still have a plastic tail wheel get a good rubber
> > > > one and replace it (William's Soaring sells a good one), roller blade
> > > > wheels will work but not as well.
>
> > > Thanks for the help. *... akiley
>
> > > > Tim
> > > > (500 hours in Std Cirrus)
> > > > (800 hours in Nimbus 2M)
>
> > 1. Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal
> > with
> > loosing position behind the tow?
>
> > You would if you leave the rudder in too long. *I teach new pilots to
> > think of it as boxing. *Most of the inputs are jabs, in for a fraction
> > of second and out again. *The goal is to keep the glider balanced.
> > Think of it as trying to balance on top of a ball.
>
> > 2. Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
> > *aileron authority that requires rudder?
>
> > The rudder is in and out to keep directional stability and to pick up
> > a wing if it gets to low. *The Std Cirrus has a CG hook, you can't let
> > it turn much or it will want to break to one side.
>
> > 3. Won't full stick forward increase the chance of a PIO? *I'm
> > currently
> > using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.
>
> > No, the full stick is just to raise the tail, once it is up you will
> > be about neutral stick with slight back pressure to rotate. *The PIO
> > in all flying tails comes if you are not steady at that point.
>
> > 4. I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. *I would
> > worry
> > about timing so that a POI didn't develop.
>
> > Again the PIO only comes once you are in the air and if you are not
> > gentle on the controls. Often it is best to rest your arm on your lap
> > to minimize the motion in your hand.
>
> Thanks for those very helpful ways to visualize. *Boxing jabs and
> balancing on the ball.
>
> I videotaped one of our club members Cirrus aerotows recently. *I shot
> from directly behind centered with the tow directly ahead. *He was
> airborne in 6 seconds! *There was a little headwind, plus our Pawnee
> accelerates quickly. *Makes you realize how fast things happen. *I
> guess the good news is that you're at flying speed very quickly.
>
> In an unrelated diversion. *Do you know how I can touch up the black
> paint that is flaking off the narrow edge of the glare shield that
> faces the pilot? *It appears to be aluminum, and this edge is seen
> when the canopy is closed just above and wrapping around the
> instruments. *Someone said a waterproof Magic marker for temporary
> touch up. *Sounds a bit crude to me. *Sharpie"s black is more of a
> deep purple.
>
> ... akiley

Krylon Semi-Flat Black in the spray can works well. If you're just
touching up nicks, spray some into a cup and use a small artist's
brush. Available at your nearest mega-store. The plain old interior-
exterior, 12 minute dry stuff works best.

Craig

[akiley]

On Jul 27, 2:01*am, Bruce > wrote:
> OK - I have a similar serial number Std Cirrus.
>
> Quite a lot less time in it than Tim though.
>
> My experience is - use both aileron and rudder.
> With a tail wheel it helps to keep the tail down for the first part of
> the run (stick aft of neutral - but no need to hold hard back) that way
> the glider tracks much straighter.
> In the initial part of the run the ailerons are very ineffectual and
> large deflections can stall them.
>
> So - I would agree with prior advice in general. What works for me is to
> use rudder and aileron in inverse proportion as the speed increases. By
> the time you are at flying speed you should be flying co-ordinated.
> At very low speed you will be wanting to use rudder a lot more than
> ailerons.
>
> Using the airbrakes on the initial part of the run means the ailerons
> are effective far earlier as they divert airflow over the top of the
> aileron. Don't try to put them away too close to flying speed - you
> might find yourself with a balloon and PIO.
>
> Particularly for winch launching it is a poor idea to use full forward
> elevator on a full flying elevator Cirrus on the initial run. You run
> the risk of stalling the elevator. Particularly if the pilot is light
> and / or the CG is aft. Also any contol held at the stop limits the
> available actions (you can only move it one way...)
>
> My Cirrus has the CG very far aft, and is perfectly controllable with
> the stick 60-70% forward on a winch launch. On aerotow I hold some aft
> pressure till I feel the controls bite then smoothly forward till the
> tail comes up. The last thing you want is to be attached to a CG tow
> hook pivoting around the main wheel at low speed with big control
> deflections.
>
> As Tim said rudder inputs should be a brief deflection to pick a wing up
> then back to whatever was tracking you straight - this may be quite a
> large deflection in the case of a strong cross wind.
>
> Bruce
>
> On 2010/07/27 7:02 AM, Tim Taylor wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 26, 8:18 pm, > *wrote:
> >> On Jul 26, 9:49 pm, Tim > *wrote:
>
> >>> On Jul 26, 7:29 pm, > *wrote:
>
> >>>> Hi all, new forum member, new transition glider pilot as of this
> >>>> spring.
>
> >>>> I just got a checkout and have done two flights in a 1970 Standard
> >>>> Cirrus that our club owns. *(This Cirrus model has the full flying
> >>>> elevator s/n 70 I think)
>
> >>>> I read as much as I could find on the web, thought long and hard then
> >>>> went for it. *Things went well the first tow. *The second tow, my
> >>>> right wing touched briefly on the initial roll. *First time this has
> >>>> happened to me. *I got it up quickly and there was no yawing, so I
> >>>> continued the flight uneventfully.
>
> >>>> So, I have a question for any experienced Cirrus pilots. *I've been
> >>>> told that one needs both rudder and aileron combined to get a low wing
> >>>> up during initial roll on aerotow. *Furthermore the POH says not to
> >>>> use aileron on takeoff! *I don't understand either of these things.. *I
> >>>> can understand both rudder and aileron for the first three seconds or
> >>>> so if one has no wing runner, *but it seems like I should just use
> >>>> rudder to keep the nose straight and aileron to keep the wings level
> >>>> in general. *Especially after my speed is 15kts or more. *This has
> >>>> always worked in a Grob 103 and an ASK21 of which I have the bulk of
> >>>> my hours.
>
> >>>> ... akiley
>
> >>> First some questions
>
> >>> 1. Does this glider have the spoiler mod completed?
>
> >> No. *Full spoiler handle back lets air under spoiler.
>
> >>> 2, What type of tail wheel skid does it have?
>
> >> Small yellow hard rubber wheel like a rollerblade wheel perturding
> >> from the black skid.
>
> >>> 3. If it is the rubber tail skid with wheel, what type of wheel does
> >>> it have? Plastic or rubber? *Rubber I believe.
> >>> 4. Have you pushed the glider over a very flat runway or tie-down and
> >>> checked that it tracks true and not left or right significantly?
>
> >> No, but after aligning it very accurately with tow plane just prior to
> >> each tow, it seems to track true.
>
> >>> Basic answers are with the Std. Cirrus you are going to use BOTH
> >>> ailerons and rudder. *The ailerons quickly to counter act any drop and
> >>> the rudder to pick up the wing if it is dropping. *The POH is 40 years
> >>> old and we have learned much since those were written.
>
> >> Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal with
> >> loosing position behind the tow?
>
> >> Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
> >> aileron authority that requires rudder?
>
> >>> Depending wind conditions and if your glider is straight (no tacking
> >>> to one side) I would recommend:
>
> >>> 1. Light winds or winds straight down the runway. *Stick full forward
> >>> and use both ailerons and rudder until the glider is stable on tow.
>
> >> Won't full stick forward increase the change of a PIO? *I'm currently
> >> using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.
>
> >>> If you have enough time in gliders opening the spoilers will help.
> >>> Full open if you have the spoiler mod, half open if you do not.
>
> >>> 2. Cross winds. *Stick full back on the start of roll to plant the
> >>> tail until you get rudder authority, then go stick full forward to
> >>> bring the tail up.
>
> >> I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. *I would worry
> >> about timing so that a POI didn't develop.
>
> >>> If your glider does not track true and has the rubber tail wheel
> >>> assembly take it off and reattach it so that the glider rolls
> >>> straight. *If you still have a plastic tail wheel get a good rubber
> >>> one and replace it (William's Soaring sells a good one), roller blade
> >>> wheels will work but not as well.
>
> >> Thanks for the help. *... akiley
>
> >>> Tim
> >>> (500 hours in Std Cirrus)
> >>> (800 hours in Nimbus 2M)
>
> > 1. Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal
> > with
> > loosing position behind the tow?
>
> > You would if you leave the rudder in too long. *I teach new pilots to
> > think of it as boxing. *Most of the inputs are jabs, in for a fraction
> > of second and out again. *The goal is to keep the glider balanced.
> > Think of it as trying to balance on top of a ball.
>
> > 2. Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
> > * aileron authority that requires rudder?
>
> > The rudder is in and out to keep directional stability and to pick up
> > a wing if it gets to low. *The Std Cirrus has a CG hook, you can't let
> > it turn much or it will want to break to one side.
>
> > 3. Won't full stick forward increase the chance of a PIO? *I'm
> > currently
> > using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.
>
> > No, the full stick is just to raise the tail, once it is up you will
> > be about neutral stick with slight back pressure to rotate. *The PIO
> > in all flying tails comes if you are not steady at that point.
>
> > 4. I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. *I would
> > worry
> > about timing so that a POI didn't develop.
>
> > Again the PIO only comes once you are in the air and if you are not
> > gentle on the controls. Often it is best to rest your arm on your lap
> > to minimize the motion in your hand.
>
> --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

A little follow up for clarification. I can't figure out what's more
important, staying behind the tow plane or trying to level the wings
with rudder during the initial roll. (assuming ailerons are mostly
useless at this slow speed) It seems, at least on the initial roll,
that you can't always have it both ways. Say the left wing starts to
drop, but you are also starting to get to the right of the tow plane.
At this point it seems you have a choice of wing up with rudder, or
let the wing be and use rudder to work your way gradually back behind
the tow plane hoping your ailerons starts to become effective soon.
Or can a rudder jabbing action sort of lift a wing without aggravating
a yaw in the already wrong direction?

Unless a "dropped wing" is defined as a wing that actually hits the
ground, causing a definitive yaw away from the tow. In this case
rudder input to lift the wing gets the wing up AND re-positions the
glider behind the tow, same technique one might use to initiate
aerotow without a wing runner.

Wuddiyathynk? ...akiley

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 15:46:32 -0700, akiley wrote:

> Say the left wing starts to drop,
> but you are also starting to get to the right of the tow plane.
>
IME that's pretty unlikely. If there's little wind or crosswind and you
drift right, the towplane's prop blast is going to tend to lift the left
wing, so you're more likely to end up right wing low.

The only case I can see where you'd end up to the right of the tug with
left wing low would be with a strong cross wind from the right - strong
enough to drive the wing down through the prop blast, in which case
you'll be tending to weathercock further right. The left rudder needed to
counter that will tend to pick up the left wing as a side effect.

WRT your priorities: I normally fly off wide, grass runways, so keeping
the tips off the floor can take priority assuming I'm not too far off tug
centre. However, I've also flown in parts of the US where the norm seemed
to be a hard runway about twice the width of a Pawnee's wheel track. In
those conditions my priority would be staying on the runway.

In any case, standard doctrine in my club is that you release as soon as
the tip hits the floor, regardless of launch method.

Disclaimer: I normally winch and I fly a Libelle, not a Cirrus, so take
this with a grain of salt, apart the bit about from being ready to
release instantly.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[mike]

On Jul 28, 4:46*pm, akiley > wrote:
> On Jul 27, 2:01*am, Bruce > wrote:
>
>
>
> > OK - I have a similar serial number Std Cirrus.
>
> > Quite a lot less time in it than Tim though.
>
> > My experience is - use both aileron and rudder.
> > With a tail wheel it helps to keep the tail down for the first part of
> > the run (stick aft of neutral - but no need to hold hard back) that way
> > the glider tracks much straighter.
> > In the initial part of the run the ailerons are very ineffectual and
> > large deflections can stall them.
>
> > So - I would agree with prior advice in general. What works for me is to
> > use rudder and aileron in inverse proportion as the speed increases. By
> > the time you are at flying speed you should be flying co-ordinated.
> > At very low speed you will be wanting to use rudder a lot more than
> > ailerons.
>
> > Using the airbrakes on the initial part of the run means the ailerons
> > are effective far earlier as they divert airflow over the top of the
> > aileron. Don't try to put them away too close to flying speed - you
> > might find yourself with a balloon and PIO.
>
> > Particularly for winch launching it is a poor idea to use full forward
> > elevator on a full flying elevator Cirrus on the initial run. You run
> > the risk of stalling the elevator. Particularly if the pilot is light
> > and / or the CG is aft. Also any contol held at the stop limits the
> > available actions (you can only move it one way...)
>
> > My Cirrus has the CG very far aft, and is perfectly controllable with
> > the stick 60-70% forward on a winch launch. On aerotow I hold some aft
> > pressure till I feel the controls bite then smoothly forward till the
> > tail comes up. The last thing you want is to be attached to a CG tow
> > hook pivoting around the main wheel at low speed with big control
> > deflections.
>
> > As Tim said rudder inputs should be a brief deflection to pick a wing up
> > then back to whatever was tracking you straight - this may be quite a
> > large deflection in the case of a strong cross wind.
>
> > Bruce
>
> > On 2010/07/27 7:02 AM, Tim Taylor wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 26, 8:18 pm, > *wrote:
> > >> On Jul 26, 9:49 pm, Tim > *wrote:
>
> > >>> On Jul 26, 7:29 pm, > *wrote:
>
> > >>>> Hi all, new forum member, new transition glider pilot as of this
> > >>>> spring.
>
> > >>>> I just got a checkout and have done two flights in a 1970 Standard
> > >>>> Cirrus that our club owns. *(This Cirrus model has the full flying
> > >>>> elevator s/n 70 I think)
>
> > >>>> I read as much as I could find on the web, thought long and hard then
> > >>>> went for it. *Things went well the first tow. *The second tow, my
> > >>>> right wing touched briefly on the initial roll. *First time this has
> > >>>> happened to me. *I got it up quickly and there was no yawing, so I
> > >>>> continued the flight uneventfully.
>
> > >>>> So, I have a question for any experienced Cirrus pilots. *I've been
> > >>>> told that one needs both rudder and aileron combined to get a low wing
> > >>>> up during initial roll on aerotow. *Furthermore the POH says not to
> > >>>> use aileron on takeoff! *I don't understand either of these things. *I
> > >>>> can understand both rudder and aileron for the first three seconds or
> > >>>> so if one has no wing runner, *but it seems like I should just use
> > >>>> rudder to keep the nose straight and aileron to keep the wings level
> > >>>> in general. *Especially after my speed is 15kts or more. *This has
> > >>>> always worked in a Grob 103 and an ASK21 of which I have the bulk of
> > >>>> my hours.
>
> > >>>> ... akiley
>
> > >>> First some questions
>
> > >>> 1. Does this glider have the spoiler mod completed?
>
> > >> No. *Full spoiler handle back lets air under spoiler.
>
> > >>> 2, What type of tail wheel skid does it have?
>
> > >> Small yellow hard rubber wheel like a rollerblade wheel perturding
> > >> from the black skid.
>
> > >>> 3. If it is the rubber tail skid with wheel, what type of wheel does
> > >>> it have? Plastic or rubber? *Rubber I believe.
> > >>> 4. Have you pushed the glider over a very flat runway or tie-down and
> > >>> checked that it tracks true and not left or right significantly?
>
> > >> No, but after aligning it very accurately with tow plane just prior to
> > >> each tow, it seems to track true.
>
> > >>> Basic answers are with the Std. Cirrus you are going to use BOTH
> > >>> ailerons and rudder. *The ailerons quickly to counter act any drop and
> > >>> the rudder to pick up the wing if it is dropping. *The POH is 40 years
> > >>> old and we have learned much since those were written.
>
> > >> Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal with
> > >> loosing position behind the tow?
>
> > >> Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
> > >> aileron authority that requires rudder?
>
> > >>> Depending wind conditions and if your glider is straight (no tacking
> > >>> to one side) I would recommend:
>
> > >>> 1. Light winds or winds straight down the runway. *Stick full forward
> > >>> and use both ailerons and rudder until the glider is stable on tow.
>
> > >> Won't full stick forward increase the change of a PIO? *I'm currently
> > >> using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.
>
> > >>> If you have enough time in gliders opening the spoilers will help.
> > >>> Full open if you have the spoiler mod, half open if you do not.
>
> > >>> 2. Cross winds. *Stick full back on the start of roll to plant the
> > >>> tail until you get rudder authority, then go stick full forward to
> > >>> bring the tail up.
>
> > >> I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. *I would worry
> > >> about timing so that a POI didn't develop.
>
> > >>> If your glider does not track true and has the rubber tail wheel
> > >>> assembly take it off and reattach it so that the glider rolls
> > >>> straight. *If you still have a plastic tail wheel get a good rubber
> > >>> one and replace it (William's Soaring sells a good one), roller blade
> > >>> wheels will work but not as well.
>
> > >> Thanks for the help. *... akiley
>
> > >>> Tim
> > >>> (500 hours in Std Cirrus)
> > >>> (800 hours in Nimbus 2M)
>
> > > 1. Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal
> > > with
> > > loosing position behind the tow?
>
> > > You would if you leave the rudder in too long. *I teach new pilots to
> > > think of it as boxing. *Most of the inputs are jabs, in for a fraction
> > > of second and out again. *The goal is to keep the glider balanced.
> > > Think of it as trying to balance on top of a ball.
>
> > > 2. Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
> > > * aileron authority that requires rudder?
>
> > > The rudder is in and out to keep directional stability and to pick up
> > > a wing if it gets to low. *The Std Cirrus has a CG hook, you can't let
> > > it turn much or it will want to break to one side.
>
> > > 3. Won't full stick forward increase the chance of a PIO? *I'm
> > > currently
> > > using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.
>
> > > No, the full stick is just to raise the tail, once it is up you will
> > > be about neutral stick with slight back pressure to rotate. *The PIO
> > > in all flying tails comes if you are not steady at that point.
>
> > > 4. I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. *I would
> > > worry
> > > about timing so that a POI didn't develop.
>
> > > Again the PIO only comes once you are in the air and if you are not
> > > gentle on the controls. Often it is best to rest your arm on your lap
> > > to minimize the motion in your hand.
>
> > --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---
>
> A little follow up for clarification. *I can't figure out what's more
> important, staying behind the tow plane or trying to level the wings
> with rudder during the initial roll. *(assuming ailerons are mostly
> useless at this slow speed) It seems, at least on the initial roll,
> that you can't always have it both ways. *Say the left wing starts to
> drop, but you are also starting to get to the right of the tow plane.
> At this point it seems you have a choice of wing up with rudder, or
> let the wing be and use rudder to work your way gradually back behind
> the tow plane hoping your ailerons starts to become effective soon.
> Or can a rudder jabbing action sort of lift a wing without aggravating
> a yaw in the already wrong direction?
>
> Unless a "dropped wing" is defined as a wing that actually hits the
> ground, causing a definitive yaw away from the tow. *In this case
> rudder input to lift the wing gets the wing up AND re-positions the
> glider behind the tow, same technique one might use to initiate
> aerotow without a wing runner.
>
> Wuddiyathynk? *...akiley


Listen to Kevin Finke.