Winchester?

[Elmshoot]

When did the turm "Winchester" come into being to mean that you were out of
ammo.
I was trying to explain the term to my daughter and got to thinking that maybe
it has a long history. During my time from 76-94 it was used by the attack guys
as well to signify they were out of all ordnance.
Sparky

[Ogden Johnson III]

(Elmshoot) wrote:

>When did the turm "Winchester" come into being to mean that you were out of
>ammo.
>I was trying to explain the term to my daughter and got to thinking that maybe
>it has a long history. During my time from 76-94 it was used by the attack guys
>as well to signify they were out of all ordnance.

<purest, unqualified, speculation possible>

Probably dates back at least to Custer at Little Big Horn, with a
lot of guys yelling that they were running out of Winchester
ammo. Don't you think?

</purest, unqualified, speculation possible>

[Second thought. Latest historic research suggest that the
Indians had both more and better {i.e., more recent, and
repeaters to boot} rifles than the 7thCav with their CW-era
breechloaders. Mebbe it was the Indians that were running out of
Winchester ammo.]
--
OJ III
[Email to Yahoo address may be burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast.]

[WaltBJ]

Ogden Johnson III > wrote in message >...
> (Elmshoot) wrote:
>
> >When did the turm "Winchester" come into being to mean that you were out of
> >ammo.
> >I was trying to explain the term to my daughter and got to thinking that maybe
> >it has a long history. During my time from 76-94 it was used by the attack guys
> >as well to signify they were out of all ordnance.
>
>AFAIK it originated in the Vietnam era. Da Nang was the first time I
ran into it, and I'd been flying fighters since 1954.
Walt BJ

[The Raven]

"WaltBJ" > wrote in message
m...
> Ogden Johnson III > wrote in message
> >...
>> (Elmshoot) wrote:
>>
>> >When did the turm "Winchester" come into being to mean that you were out
>> >of
>> >ammo.
>> >I was trying to explain the term to my daughter and got to thinking that
>> >maybe
>> >it has a long history. During my time from 76-94 it was used by the
>> >attack guys
>> >as well to signify they were out of all ordnance.
>>
>>AFAIK it originated in the Vietnam era. Da Nang was the first time I
> ran into it, and I'd been flying fighters since 1954.
> Walt BJ

Heard the term used by British fighter pilots during WWII.

Not that this counts as supporting evidence but one WWII flight sim has Brit
pilots saying "I'm Winchester!"

--
The Raven
http://www.80scartoons.co.uk/batfinkquote.mp3
** Now I will bring chaos to the world!

[Harry Andreas]

In article >, Ogden Johnson III
> wrote:

> (Elmshoot) wrote:
>
> >When did the turm "Winchester" come into being to mean that you were out of
> >ammo.
> >I was trying to explain the term to my daughter and got to thinking
that maybe
> >it has a long history. During my time from 76-94 it was used by the
attack guys
> >as well to signify they were out of all ordnance.
>
> <purest, unqualified, speculation possible>
>
> Probably dates back at least to Custer at Little Big Horn, with a
> lot of guys yelling that they were running out of Winchester
> ammo. Don't you think?
>

:-D
Good guess, but the cavalry were using Trap Door Springfield carbines
and the cartridges came from government arsenals, not private purchase.
I don't think Winchester were able to chamber the .45-70 in a repeater
until well after Little Big Horn.

> </purest, unqualified, speculation possible>
>
> [Second thought. Latest historic research suggest that the
> Indians had both more and better {i.e., more recent, and
> repeaters to boot} rifles than the 7thCav with their CW-era
> breechloaders. Mebbe it was the Indians that were running out of
> Winchester ammo.]

Indians were armed with Winchesters in .44-40 and .44 Henry.
More rapid firing, but also more limited range. Circumstances seem to indicate
that the troopers were simply overwhelmed by numbers.
But everyone knew that already.

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

[Greasy Rider]

On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 10:02:37 -0700, (Harry
Andreas) proclaimed:

>More rapid firing, but also more limited range. Circumstances seem to indicate
>that the troopers were simply overwhelmed by numbers.

Some say that Custer died wearing an Arrow shirt...

[Bill Kambic]

"Harry Andreas" wrote in message

> :-D
> Good guess, but the cavalry were using Trap Door Springfield carbines
> and the cartridges came from government arsenals, not private purchase.
> I don't think Winchester were able to chamber the .45-70 in a repeater
> until well after Little Big Horn.

Ayup.

> > </purest, unqualified, speculation possible>
> >
> > [Second thought. Latest historic research suggest that the
> > Indians had both more and better {i.e., more recent, and
> > repeaters to boot} rifles than the 7thCav with their CW-era
> > breechloaders. Mebbe it was the Indians that were running out of
> > Winchester ammo.]
>
> Indians were armed with Winchesters in .44-40 and .44 Henry.
> More rapid firing, but also more limited range. Circumstances seem to
indicate
> that the troopers were simply overwhelmed by numbers.
> But everyone knew that already.

Surprisingly few do. The myth of "better armed Indians" is alive and well
in spite of the fact that only Custer was overun. Benteen and Reno were
able to hold off their attackers until help arrived.

Still, the Henry was known as "that damn Yankee gun you load on Sunday and
shoot all week" 'cause of its impressive (for the day) 17 round capacity.
The Model '73 (as seen in "Winchester '73") had the same capacity. It was
sold in a military version to at least Turkey and Russia. So maybe there
could be a connection somewhere in the dark reaches of history. ;-)

Bill Kambic

[Pechs1]

Greasy-<< Some say that Custer died wearing an Arrow shirt... >><BR><BR>

Sporting a new haircut....
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[WaltBJ]

"SNIP:> >
> > Indians were armed with Winchesters in .44-40 and .44 Henry.
> > More rapid firing, but also more limited range. Circumstances seem to
> indicate
> > that the troopers were simply overwhelmed by numbers.
> > But everyone knew that already.
> > Surprisingly few do. The myth of "better armed Indians" is alive and well
> in spite of the fact that only Custer was overun. Benteen and Reno were
> able to hold off their attackers until help arrived.
> > Still, the Henry was known as "that damn Yankee gun you load on Sunday and
> shoot all week" 'cause of its impressive (for the day) 17 round capacity.
> The Model '73 (as seen in "Winchester '73") had the same capacity. It was
> sold in a military version to at least Turkey and Russia. So maybe there
> could be a connection somewhere in the dark reaches of history. ;-)
> > Bill Kambic


Get down to your local library and check out "Son of the Morning
Star". Pretty good portrayal of 'Custer's Last Stand'. I've been to
the site - not a good place for a stand-off; really exposed.
Walt BJ

[Bill Kambic]

"WaltBJ" wrote in message

> Get down to your local library and check out "Son of the Morning
> Star". Pretty good portrayal of 'Custer's Last Stand'.

I have a vague recollection of having seen this. Will see it again, though!
:-)

I've been to
> the site - not a good place for a stand-off; really exposed.

I visited there back in college. Spooky to imagine standing there seeing
nothing but ****ed off Indians.

There's a guy I met who runs trail rides through that area. One of them
traces Custer's path for a few days. Might do that next fall!

Bill Kambic

[John Keeney]

"WaltBJ" > wrote in message
om...
> "SNIP:> >
> > > Indians were armed with Winchesters in .44-40 and .44 Henry.
> > > More rapid firing, but also more limited range. Circumstances seem to
> > indicate
> > > that the troopers were simply overwhelmed by numbers.
> > > But everyone knew that already.
> > > Surprisingly few do. The myth of "better armed Indians" is alive and
well
> > in spite of the fact that only Custer was overun. Benteen and Reno were
> > able to hold off their attackers until help arrived.
> > > Still, the Henry was known as "that damn Yankee gun you load on Sunday
and
> > shoot all week" 'cause of its impressive (for the day) 17 round
capacity.
> > The Model '73 (as seen in "Winchester '73") had the same capacity. It
was
> > sold in a military version to at least Turkey and Russia. So maybe
there
> > could be a connection somewhere in the dark reaches of history. ;-)
> > > Bill Kambic
>
>
> Get down to your local library and check out "Son of the Morning
> Star". Pretty good portrayal of 'Custer's Last Stand'. I've been to
> the site - not a good place for a stand-off; really exposed.
> Walt BJ

Yea, but those slopes are pretty steep; first team up has a nice
advantage.

[George Shirley]

Bill Kambic wrote:
> "WaltBJ" wrote in message
>
>
>>Get down to your local library and check out "Son of the Morning
>>Star". Pretty good portrayal of 'Custer's Last Stand'.
>
>
> I have a vague recollection of having seen this. Will see it again, though!
> :-)
>
> I've been to
>
>>the site - not a good place for a stand-off; really exposed.
>
>
> I visited there back in college. Spooky to imagine standing there seeing
> nothing but ****ed off Indians.
>
> There's a guy I met who runs trail rides through that area. One of them
> traces Custer's path for a few days. Might do that next fall!
>
> Bill Kambic
>
>
I visited the battlefield on the "Greasy Grass" in 1958 with a Cheyanne
friend. Doubly spooky hearing him talk about what his great grandfather
had told him of the battle. I have never gone back for that reason.

George

[Mike Kanze]

George,

>I visited the battlefield on the "Greasy Grass" in 1958 with a Cheyanne
>friend. Doubly spooky hearing him talk about what his great grandfather had
>told him of the battle. I have never gone back for that reason.

Didn't know that the Cheyenne were involved in the Little Big Horn battle
(that is the same as "Greasy Grass", right?). Thought the whole operation
was a Sioux affair. Please enlighten me.

--
Mike Kanze

"Do witches run spell-checkers?"

- Old word processing joke


"George Shirley" > wrote in message
...
> Bill Kambic wrote:
>> "WaltBJ" wrote in message
>>
>>
>>>Get down to your local library and check out "Son of the Morning
>>>Star". Pretty good portrayal of 'Custer's Last Stand'.
>>
>>
>> I have a vague recollection of having seen this. Will see it again,
>> though!
>> :-)
>>
>> I've been to
>>
>>>the site - not a good place for a stand-off; really exposed.
>>
>>
>> I visited there back in college. Spooky to imagine standing there seeing
>> nothing but ****ed off Indians.
>>
>> There's a guy I met who runs trail rides through that area. One of them
>> traces Custer's path for a few days. Might do that next fall!
>>
>> Bill Kambic
>>
>>
> I visited the battlefield on the "Greasy Grass" in 1958 with a Cheyanne
> friend. Doubly spooky hearing him talk about what his great grandfather
> had told him of the battle. I have never gone back for that reason.
>
> George
>