FAI Ultralight Definition

[Tony[_5_]]

Curious,

Sporting Code 3 defines the Ultralight Class as a take off weight of
less than 220 kg, or 485 lbs. Is this maximum allowed takeoff weigth
or the actual weight of the glider for that flight?

[BTiz]

On Aug 17, 7:56*am, Tony > wrote:
> Curious,
>
> Sporting Code 3 defines the Ultralight Class as a take off weight of
> less than 220 kg, or 485 lbs. *Is this maximum allowed takeoff weigth
> or the actual weight of the glider for that flight?

Tony... as I read the sporting code.. they always refer to "Mass",
whether it be max or minimum attainable.
So to me, in the US to read, "ULTRALIGHT, a glider with a takeoff mass
not exceeding 220 kg," that means maximum gross weight.

Are you considering that you can get an ULTRALIGHT record if you can
fly your glider below 220kg, even if you can actually carry more
according to the TCDS?
Perhaps a letter to the FAI or the SSA Badge Lady is needed?
BT

[Tony[_5_]]

On Aug 17, 7:41*pm, BTiz > wrote:
> On Aug 17, 7:56*am, Tony > wrote:
>
> > Curious,
>
> > Sporting Code 3 defines the Ultralight Class as a take off weight of
> > less than 220 kg, or 485 lbs. *Is this maximum allowed takeoff weigth
> > or the actual weight of the glider for that flight?
>
> Tony... as I read the sporting code.. they always refer to "Mass",
> whether it be max or minimum attainable.
> So to me, in the US to read, "ULTRALIGHT, a glider with a takeoff mass
> not exceeding 220 kg," that means maximum gross weight.
>
> Are you considering that you can get an ULTRALIGHT record if you can
> fly your glider below 220kg, even if you can actually carry more
> according to the TCDS?
> Perhaps a letter to the FAI or the SSA Badge Lady is needed?
> BT

The sporting code does not have different meaning in the US vs. other
countries.

Not me, but I think there is a possibility that a light person in
Leah's Cherokee II would be under the Ultralight limit and the
Feminine World Record for Free Distance in the Ultralight class is
only 150ish kilometers. There are NO US Feminine records in the
Ultralight class.

[BTiz]

On Aug 17, 7:21*pm, Tony > wrote:
> On Aug 17, 7:41*pm, BTiz > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 17, 7:56*am, Tony > wrote:
>
> > > Curious,
>
> > > Sporting Code 3 defines the Ultralight Class as a take off weight of
> > > less than 220 kg, or 485 lbs. *Is this maximum allowed takeoff weigth
> > > or the actual weight of the glider for that flight?
>
> > Tony... as I read the sporting code.. they always refer to "Mass",
> > whether it be max or minimum attainable.
> > So to me, in the US to read, "ULTRALIGHT, a glider with a takeoff mass
> > not exceeding 220 kg," that means maximum gross weight.
>
> > Are you considering that you can get an ULTRALIGHT record if you can
> > fly your glider below 220kg, even if you can actually carry more
> > according to the TCDS?
> > Perhaps a letter to the FAI or the SSA Badge Lady is needed?
> > BT
>
> The sporting code does not have different meaning in the US vs. other
> countries.
>
> Not me, but I think there is a possibility that a light person in
> Leah's Cherokee II would be under the Ultralight limit and the
> Feminine World Record for Free Distance in the Ultralight class is
> only 150ish kilometers. *There are NO US Feminine records in the
> Ultralight class.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

That may be worth chasing, you would probably have to have a certified
weight taken just prior to take off. That extra bottle of water may be
too much.
Not many "ultralight gliders" in the US until they built the
SparrowHawk.

[sisu1a]

> Not many "ultralight gliders" in the US until they built the
> SparrowHawk.

There's still more Carbon Dragons than SparrowHawks... nearly 2/1
IIRC (might not all be in US, hmm), but even added together it's still
not many... Gary Osaba knows a great deal about the fine lines of the
sporting code on ultralights if you contact him... Also Leo Benitti
set a respectable one of TX in a too and would know the nitty gritties
and I'm sure would be glad to help if you contacted him.
relevant: http://records.fai.org/docs/9635-4.pdf

His Silent was 281lbs empty for the flight, within D/U limits. If it
were the motorglider version, it would have been 140lbs heavier and I
think out of weight for the category. You should be able to
extrapolate whether Leah and her Cherokee are too fat for this
category or not. If they are over however, I recommend different
verbiage to convey this point ;)

-p

[Alan[_6_]]

In article > BTiz > writes:
>On Aug 17, 7:56=A0am, Tony > wrote:
>> Curious,
>>
>> Sporting Code 3 defines the Ultralight Class as a take off weight of
>> less than 220 kg, or 485 lbs. =A0Is this maximum allowed takeoff weigth
>> or the actual weight of the glider for that flight?
>
>Tony... as I read the sporting code.. they always refer to "Mass",
>whether it be max or minimum attainable.
>So to me, in the US to read, "ULTRALIGHT, a glider with a takeoff mass
>not exceeding 220 kg," that means maximum gross weight.


Much of the world does not report weights of things, but they report
masses in kilograms (or grams). A mass of 220 Kg would "weigh" 485 pounds.

There is no reason for the use of a mass measurement to imply that it
is the certificated maximum gross takeoff weight.

It could be:

1. The empty weight. This is how the part 103 definitions are
written.

2. The weight as actually flown.

3. The maximum legal gross weight at takeoff.

Since we do our flying on a planet with a fairly constant gravitational
accelleration, we can safely use mass or weight units of measurement.


Again, the international code refers to MASS because that is the way
that most of the world records these things.

(NOTE: often they measure with a spring scale, which is actually
measuring force, but it may indicate the mass (assuming normal earth
gravity).)


Alan

[Tony[_5_]]

On Aug 17, 11:29*pm, sisu1a > wrote:
> > Not many "ultralight gliders" in the US until they built the
> > SparrowHawk.
>
> There's still more Carbon Dragons than SparrowHawks... * nearly 2/1
> IIRC (might not all be in US, hmm), but even added together it's still
> not many... *Gary Osaba knows a great deal about the fine lines of the
> sporting code on ultralights if you contact him... Also Leo Benitti
> set a respectable one of TX in a too and would know the nitty gritties
> and I'm sure would be glad to help if you contacted him.
> relevant:http://records.fai.org/docs/9635-4.pdf
>
> His Silent was 281lbs empty for the flight, within D/U *limits. If it
> were the motorglider version, it would have been 140lbs heavier and I
> think out of weight for the category. You should be able to
> extrapolate whether Leah and her Cherokee are too fat for this
> category or not. If they are over however, I recommend different
> verbiage to convey this point ;)
>
> -p

not to mention there are a few woodstocks out there.

Good point Paul, I'll check in with Gary and Leo. I had read Leo's
flight report in Soaring, what a story.

[Tony[_5_]]

On Aug 18, 7:19*am, Tony > wrote:
> On Aug 17, 11:29*pm, sisu1a > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Not many "ultralight gliders" in the US until they built the
> > > SparrowHawk.
>
> > There's still more Carbon Dragons than SparrowHawks... * nearly 2/1
> > IIRC (might not all be in US, hmm), but even added together it's still
> > not many... *Gary Osaba knows a great deal about the fine lines of the
> > sporting code on ultralights if you contact him... Also Leo Benitti
> > set a respectable one of TX in a too and would know the nitty gritties
> > and I'm sure would be glad to help if you contacted him.
> > relevant:http://records.fai.org/docs/9635-4.pdf
>
> > His Silent was 281lbs empty for the flight, within D/U *limits. If it
> > were the motorglider version, it would have been 140lbs heavier and I
> > think out of weight for the category. You should be able to
> > extrapolate whether Leah and her Cherokee are too fat for this
> > category or not. If they are over however, I recommend different
> > verbiage to convey this point ;)
>
> > -p
>
> not to mention there are a few woodstocks out there.
>
> Good point Paul, I'll check in with Gary and Leo. I had read Leo's
> flight report in Soaring, what a story.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

the entry for the Silent 2 pure glider on the Sailplane Directory
says:

---
Several World records have been set with the Silent 2 in the FAI Class-
DU. A basic airframe combined with reasonable pilot weight will
generally result in a take-off weight under the 220kg (485 lbs)
maximum allowable required for the FAI's DU Class.
---

and the maximum allowed weight (mass) is shown as 245 kg. This seems
to indicate that the mass at takeoff is all that matters.

[doug]

It is the take-off mass that is limited for DU class records. I was
the official observer for Gary's world records in the SparrowHawk. We
used the empty weight of the glider and weighed Gary and his gear
before the flight. I did a weight calculation and signed it and sent
it in with the rest of the paperwork. I don't know if a more accurate
weighing would be required if one was close to the limit. In Gary's
case, the take-off weight was 406.9 lbs., so the maximum weight limit
wasn't an issue.
Have fun and good luck with the records!
Doug Taylor

>
> and the maximum allowed weight (mass) is shown as 245 kg. *This seems
> to indicate that the mass at takeoff is all that matters.

[Gary Osoba[_3_]]

On Aug 17, 9:56*am, Tony > wrote:
> Curious,
>
> Sporting Code 3 defines the Ultralight Class as a take off weight of
> less than 220 kg, or 485 lbs. *Is this maximum allowed takeoff weigth
> or the actual weight of the glider for that flight?

For the DU category, the 220 kg requiremnt is the all up weight. This
will need to be certified by the OO and the FAI is strict about it (as
they should be). The Carbon Dragon prototype (at 145.7 lbs. empty
weight) is a lightweight in this class. The Sparrowhawks weigh about
30 lbs. more and makes the weight easily as well. The Silent II WR
prototype was built specifically to meet my all up weight, and the
builders even resorted to special titanium fittings in some areas to
make it. I flew a straight line flight of about 1,000 km in it but
didn't file the world record, planning on exceeding it but then
falling short due to weather. Leo is lighter than I am and had more
spare weight in it. Some of the lighter Woodstocks, such as mine, also
make the weight if the pilot is not too heavy. I weigh about 180 lbs.

There are other light gliders now but the ones above are those I have
personal experience flying world records with.

Best Regards,

Gary Osoba

[Dave Nadler]

On Aug 19, 6:18*am, Gary Osoba > wrote:
> There are other light gliders now but the ones above are those I have
> personal experience flying world records with.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Gary Osoba

Curious, how come you omitted Sigma from the list ?
See ya, Dave

[Tony[_5_]]

On Aug 19, 10:42*am, Dave Nadler > wrote:
> On Aug 19, 6:18*am, Gary Osoba > wrote:
>
> > There are other light gliders now but the ones above are those I have
> > personal experience flying world records with.
>
> > Best Regards,
>
> > Gary Osoba
>
> Curious, how come you omitted Sigma from the list ?
> See ya, Dave

perhaps he was limiting this report to ultralight records?

[Gary Osoba[_3_]]

On Aug 19, 11:00*am, Tony > wrote:
> On Aug 19, 10:42*am, Dave Nadler > wrote:
>
> > On Aug 19, 6:18*am, Gary Osoba > wrote:
>
> > > There are other light gliders now but the ones above are those I have
> > > personal experience flying world records with.
>
> > > Best Regards,
>
> > > Gary Osoba
>
> > Curious, how come you omitted Sigma from the list ?
> > See ya, Dave
>
> perhaps he was limiting this report to ultralight records?

Dave's comment was both knowledgeable and tongue in cheek. While the
Carbon Dragon flies at the lightest wing loading in the sailplane
world, the Sigma, after modification by Marsden and then myself, flies
at arguably the heaviest wing loading in the world- 13.2 psf. That's
unballasted, so you fly it that way for take-off's and landings. With
22 meters of wing, its a handful at that W/S.

I haven't attempted world records in the Sigma, but it was very
helpful ands successful in verifying pitch-based dynamic soaring
algorithms.

Best Regards,

Gary Osoba

[Tony[_5_]]

On Aug 20, 4:26*pm, Gary Osoba > wrote:
> On Aug 19, 11:00*am, Tony > wrote:
>
> > On Aug 19, 10:42*am, Dave Nadler > wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 19, 6:18*am, Gary Osoba > wrote:
>
> > > > There are other light gliders now but the ones above are those I have
> > > > personal experience flying world records with.
>
> > > > Best Regards,
>
> > > > Gary Osoba
>
> > > Curious, how come you omitted Sigma from the list ?
> > > See ya, Dave
>
> > perhaps he was limiting this report to ultralight records?
>
> Dave's comment was both knowledgeable and tongue in cheek. While the
> Carbon Dragon flies at the lightest wing loading in the sailplane
> world, the Sigma, after modification by Marsden and then myself, flies
> at arguably the heaviest wing loading in the world- *13.2 psf. That's
> unballasted, so you fly it that way for take-off's and landings. With
> 22 meters of wing, its a handful at that W/S.
>
> I haven't attempted world records in the Sigma, but it was very
> helpful ands successful in verifying pitch-based dynamic soaring
> algorithms.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Gary Osoba

doh! for some reason I read Sigma and though Gemini. Either way.

[K Smith[_2_]]

On Tuesday, August 17, 2010 at 9:21:26 PM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
> On Aug 17, 7:41Â*pm, BTiz > wrote:
> > On Aug 17, 7:56Â*am, Tony > wrote:
> >
> > > Curious,
> >
> > > Sporting Code 3 defines the Ultralight Class as a take off weight of
> > > less than 220 kg, or 485 lbs. Â*Is this maximum allowed takeoff weigth
> > > or the actual weight of the glider for that flight?
> >
> > Tony... as I read the sporting code.. they always refer to "Mass",
> > whether it be max or minimum attainable.
> > So to me, in the US to read, "ULTRALIGHT, a glider with a takeoff mass
> > not exceeding 220 kg," that means maximum gross weight.
> >
> > Are you considering that you can get an ULTRALIGHT record if you can
> > fly your glider below 220kg, even if you can actually carry more
> > according to the TCDS?
> > Perhaps a letter to the FAI or the SSA Badge Lady is needed?
> > BT
>
> The sporting code does not have different meaning in the US vs. other
> countries.
>
> Not me, but I think there is a possibility that a light person in
> Leah's Cherokee II would be under the Ultralight limit and the
> Feminine World Record for Free Distance in the Ultralight class is
> only 150ish kilometers. There are NO US Feminine records in the
> Ultralight class.

Go Leah, GO!

[POPS]

This question led me to some interesting reading. http://ozreport.com/data/WhyMicroliftSoaring.pdf


;737892']Curious,

Sporting Code 3 defines the Ultralight Class as a take off weight of
less than 220 kg, or 485 lbs. Is this maximum allowed takeoff weigth
or the actual weight of the glider for that flight?