Throttle movement

[Max Richter]

Hallo,
i know that French;Italian and Japanese airplanes prior and in WW2 had
an opostite throttlemovement than British;American and German airplanes.

I mean that to increase power you had to pull the Throttle backwards and
not forward.
Now i asumed that after WW2 with the availability of surplus British and
American planes to the mentioned countrys this habit was not longer
followed.
Now i read that the French got T28 in the early sixties and modified
them to the COIN-configeration and the reversal of the
throttlequadrantmovement was one of the mentioned modifikations.
Now my question: have Mirages or Rafales or any other airplanes this
oddity also.
Or became it extinct in the world.
Thank You
Max

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
Max Richter > wrote:

> Hallo,
> i know that French;Italian and Japanese airplanes prior and in WW2 had
> an opostite throttlemovement than British;American and German airplanes.
>
> I mean that to increase power you had to pull the Throttle backwards and
> not forward.
> Now i asumed that after WW2 with the availability of surplus British and
> American planes to the mentioned countrys this habit was not longer
> followed.
> Now i read that the French got T28 in the early sixties and modified
> them to the COIN-configeration and the reversal of the
> throttlequadrantmovement was one of the mentioned modifikations.
> Now my question: have Mirages or Rafales or any other airplanes this
> oddity also.
> Or became it extinct in the world.
> Thank You
> Max

If not, it should have become extinct!

[Jake Donovan]

I have a few hours in FENECs, the French T28 and unless they were modified
back to US configurations, the throttles where the same as the old B's and
C's I flew.

A Rafele I flew at Empire had a "normal" throttle configuration.

Just my observation of these 2 aircraft. I can not comment if either one
was modified previously.

Jake

"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Max Richter > wrote:
>
>> Hallo,
>> i know that French;Italian and Japanese airplanes prior and in WW2 had
>> an opostite throttlemovement than British;American and German airplanes.
>>
>> I mean that to increase power you had to pull the Throttle backwards and
>> not forward.
>> Now i asumed that after WW2 with the availability of surplus British and
>> American planes to the mentioned countrys this habit was not longer
>> followed.
>> Now i read that the French got T28 in the early sixties and modified
>> them to the COIN-configeration and the reversal of the
>> throttlequadrantmovement was one of the mentioned modifikations.
>> Now my question: have Mirages or Rafales or any other airplanes this
>> oddity also.
>> Or became it extinct in the world.
>> Thank You
>> Max
>
> If not, it should have become extinct!

[Guy Alcala]

Max Richter wrote:

> Hallo,
> i know that French;Italian and Japanese airplanes prior and in WW2 had
> an opostite throttlemovement than British;American and German airplanes.
>
> I mean that to increase power you had to pull the Throttle backwards and
> not forward.
> Now i asumed that after WW2 with the availability of surplus British and
> American planes to the mentioned countrys this habit was not longer
> followed.
> Now i read that the French got T28 in the early sixties and modified
> them to the COIN-configeration and the reversal of the
> throttlequadrantmovement was one of the mentioned modifikations.
> Now my question: have Mirages or Rafales or any other airplanes this
> oddity also.

I asked an IAF pilot about this some years ago. He'd flown Ouragans, dual
Mirages and Kfirs (the majority of his combat time was in A-4s). He said
they and theVautour all had standard (forward = increased throttle)
movement. The same was presumably true of Mysteres and Super Mysteres, but
hehad npo personal experience.

Guy

[Ken Duffey]

Guy Alcala wrote:
> Max Richter wrote:
>
>
>>Hallo,
>>i know that French;Italian and Japanese airplanes prior and in WW2 had
>>an opostite throttlemovement than British;American and German airplanes.
>>
>>I mean that to increase power you had to pull the Throttle backwards and
>>not forward.
>>Now i asumed that after WW2 with the availability of surplus British and
>>American planes to the mentioned countrys this habit was not longer
>>followed.
>>Now i read that the French got T28 in the early sixties and modified
>>them to the COIN-configeration and the reversal of the
>>throttlequadrantmovement was one of the mentioned modifikations.
>>Now my question: have Mirages or Rafales or any other airplanes this
>>oddity also.
>
>
> I asked an IAF pilot about this some years ago. He'd flown Ouragans, dual
> Mirages and Kfirs (the majority of his combat time was in A-4s). He said
> they and theVautour all had standard (forward = increased throttle)
> movement. The same was presumably true of Mysteres and Super Mysteres, but
> hehad npo personal experience.
>
> Guy
>

Wasn't the wing sweep lever on the F-111 changed early in its
development programme??

IIRC, the engineers designed it so that, moved forward, the wings swept
back (to go faster, same as throttle), moved back, the wings swept
forward (to slow down - same as throttle).

The early test pilots insisted it be changed to a 'natural' movement -
back to sweep the wings back, forward to sweep them forward.

Or was it the other way round ???

Ken

[nafod40]

Ken Duffey wrote:
>
> Wasn't the wing sweep lever on the F-111 changed early in its
> development programme??
>
> IIRC, the engineers designed it so that, moved forward, the wings swept
> back (to go faster, same as throttle), moved back, the wings swept
> forward (to slow down - same as throttle).
>
> The early test pilots insisted it be changed to a 'natural' movement -
> back to sweep the wings back, forward to sweep them forward.

I don't know why, but it reminds me of the timne I was at the Norfolk
airport (departures on one side, arrivals on the other), standing
outside waiting for my ride for and hour and a half. Finally took a
taxi. When I got home, asked my wife why didn't bother to pick me up.
There may have been a "WTF" in there. She said, "I was waiting on the
DEPARTURE side of the airport. You were departing the airport, weren't you?"

[Guy Alcala]

Ken Duffey wrote:

> Guy Alcala wrote:
> > Max Richter wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Hallo,
> >>i know that French;Italian and Japanese airplanes prior and in WW2 had
> >>an opostite throttlemovement than British;American and German airplanes.
> >>
> >>I mean that to increase power you had to pull the Throttle backwards and
> >>not forward.
> >>Now i asumed that after WW2 with the availability of surplus British and
> >>American planes to the mentioned countrys this habit was not longer
> >>followed.
> >>Now i read that the French got T28 in the early sixties and modified
> >>them to the COIN-configeration and the reversal of the
> >>throttlequadrantmovement was one of the mentioned modifikations.
> >>Now my question: have Mirages or Rafales or any other airplanes this
> >>oddity also.
> >
> >
> > I asked an IAF pilot about this some years ago. He'd flown Ouragans, dual
> > Mirages and Kfirs (the majority of his combat time was in A-4s). He said
> > they and theVautour all had standard (forward = increased throttle)
> > movement. The same was presumably true of Mysteres and Super Mysteres, but
> > hehad npo personal experience.
> >
> > Guy
> >
>
> Wasn't the wing sweep lever on the F-111 changed early in its
> development programme??
>
> IIRC, the engineers designed it so that, moved forward, the wings swept
> back (to go faster, same as throttle), moved back, the wings swept
> forward (to slow down - same as throttle).
>
> The early test pilots insisted it be changed to a 'natural' movement -
> back to sweep the wings back, forward to sweep them forward.
>
> Or was it the other way round ???

The wing sweep control (aka the Trombone handle) of the production a/c pulled
back to sweep the wings back, and forward to sweep them forward; even so, it
wasn't an intuitive design, and labelling the extremes FWD and AFT really didn't
help. Bill Gunston, in his ARCO book on the F-111, says that at least three
experienced pilots, including one company test pilot, got it wrong with serious
consequences. He wrote that it's mildly amazing that 40 years after a/c controls
began to be designed to resemble the system they were controlling to avoid
errors, no one insisted on having a small 'wing' mounted on the cockpit side,
which would be moved in exactly the same direction as you wanted the real one to,
and which a single glance at would eliminate any possible confusion.

Guy

[Gord Beaman]

Guy Alcala > wrote:

>
>The wing sweep control (aka the Trombone handle) of the production a/c pulled
>back to sweep the wings back, and forward to sweep them forward; even so, it
>wasn't an intuitive design, and labelling the extremes FWD and AFT really didn't
>help. Bill Gunston, in his ARCO book on the F-111, says that at least three
>experienced pilots, including one company test pilot, got it wrong with serious
>consequences. He wrote that it's mildly amazing that 40 years after a/c controls
>began to be designed to resemble the system they were controlling to avoid
>errors, no one insisted on having a small 'wing' mounted on the cockpit side,
>which would be moved in exactly the same direction as you wanted the real one to,
>and which a single glance at would eliminate any possible confusion.
>
>Guy
>

Yes...pilot error will always be with us despite what Mary says..
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

[Elmshoot]

My dad mentioned that the PB-4Y (single rudder B-24) had reversed throttles.
Sparky



>Hallo,
>i know that French;Italian and Japanese airplanes prior and in WW2 had
>an opostite throttlemovement than British;American and German airplanes.
>
>I mean that to increase power you had to pull the Throttle backwards and
>not forward.
>Now i asumed that after WW2 with the availability of surplus British and
>American planes to the mentioned countrys this habit was not longer
>followed.

[Dale]

In article >,
(Elmshoot) wrote:

> My dad mentioned that the PB-4Y (single rudder B-24) had reversed throttles.
> Sparky

I don't believe so. I haven't flown a Privateer but do have some B-24
time and the throttles are forward for power in it. The mixtures are
reversed from what is normal today (forward is cutoff).

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[Pechs1]

Guy writes about the F-111-<< Bill Gunston, in his ARCO book on the F-111, says
that at least three
experienced pilots, including one company test pilot, got it wrong with serious
consequences. >><BR><BR>

I say-after flying the Turkey, Ifind it amazing they 'got it wrong' with the
wingsweep. Altho the F-14 wings were auto, every once in a while you moved them
around manually while airborne. It seems intuitive to me, particulalry since it
changed how the A/C 'felt', when moving them back. Plus the switch was aft for
back, forward for forward.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article
>,
Orval Fairbairn > wrote:

> In article >,
> Max Richter > wrote:
>
> > Hallo,
> > i know that French;Italian and Japanese airplanes prior and in WW2 had
> > an opostite throttlemovement than British;American and German airplanes.
> >
> > I mean that to increase power you had to pull the Throttle backwards and
> > not forward.
> > Now i asumed that after WW2 with the availability of surplus British and
> > American planes to the mentioned countrys this habit was not longer
> > followed.
> > Now i read that the French got T28 in the early sixties and modified
> > them to the COIN-configeration and the reversal of the
> > throttlequadrantmovement was one of the mentioned modifikations.
> > Now my question: have Mirages or Rafales or any other airplanes this
> > oddity also.
> > Or became it extinct in the world.
> > Thank You
> > Max
>
> If not, it should have become extinct!


Upon reflection, I have flown a friend's EADS Epsilon, which has the
"proper" throttle movement (push for thrust), so it appears that even
the French can make some progress!

[Guy Alcala]

Pechs1 wrote:

> Guy writes about the F-111-<< Bill Gunston, in his ARCO book on the F-111, says
> that at least three
> experienced pilots, including one company test pilot, got it wrong with serious
> consequences. >><BR><BR>
>
> I say-after flying the Turkey, Ifind it amazing they 'got it wrong' with the
> wingsweep. Altho the F-14 wings were auto, every once in a while you moved them
> around manually while airborne. It seems intuitive to me, particulalry since it
> changed how the A/C 'felt', when moving them back. Plus the switch was aft for
> back, forward for forward.

Same with the F-111, but even so, mistakes occasionally happened. The problem was
that they sometimes happened in the F-111 on the deck at the speed of heat, when
there was no time to correct the mistake. I don't know if the accidents happened
with the wing sweep set up in the opposite way (forward = faster), as the OP asked;
I've never heard that they had to change it to the production Aft = faster, but
that might explain it. Another explanation that seems possible to me is that
moving from the throttles to the trombone handle requires a fairly natural
adjustment of hand position, while the F-14 wing sweep control seems to be
qualitatively different. Or maybe it's just that the MSP prevents you from
manually sweeping the wings if its going to cause problems? ISTR they lost a B-1
to similar incorrect wing sweep (throwing the Cg out of limits), so maybe the auto
system on the F-14 was just keeping you out of trouble.

Guy