problems with downloading flights from 302

[Robert Holliday]

I currently download my flights using 3UTPC256 which creates an IGC file. I
am applying for a state record on one of my flights and we sent the flight
file to our state record keeper in the IGC format. He is insisting that we
send him a CAI file which he claims is more secure. Can someone help me
figure out how to get this flight off of my 302 in CAI. PS: i have SEE-
YOU installed on the lap top and it puts an icon before the IGC file name
on every flight I download. Thanks.
bob holliday USA

[5Z]

On Sep 2, 4:25*pm, Robert Holliday > wrote:
> I currently download my flights using 3UTPC256 which creates an IGC file. I
> am applying for a state record on one of my flights and we sent the flight
> file to our state record keeper in the IGC format. He is insisting that we
> send him a CAI file which he claims is more secure. Can someone help me
> figure out how to get this flight off of my 302 in CAI. PS: i have SEE-
> YOU installed on the lap top and it puts an icon before the IGC file name
> on every flight I download. Thanks.
> bob holliday USA

There is no such thing as a CAI file on the 302. It produces IGC
natively.

-Tom

[T8]

On Sep 2, 7:25*pm, Robert Holliday > wrote:
> I currently download my flights using 3UTPC256 which creates an IGC file. I
> am applying for a state record on one of my flights and we sent the flight
> file to our state record keeper in the IGC format. He is insisting that we
> send him a CAI file which he claims is more secure. Can someone help me
> figure out how to get this flight off of my 302 in CAI. PS: i have SEE-
> YOU installed on the lap top and it puts an icon before the IGC file name
> on every flight I download. Thanks.
> bob holliday USA

There should be a "binary" checkbox on the file transfer utility.
Check that, and you will get a CAI file downloaded.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

[Andy[_1_]]

On Sep 2, 4:25*pm, Robert Holliday > wrote:
> I currently download my flights using 3UTPC256 which creates an IGC file. I
> am applying for a state record on one of my flights and we sent the flight
> file to our state record keeper in the IGC format. He is insisting that we
> send him a CAI file which he claims is more secure. Can someone help me
> figure out how to get this flight off of my 302 in CAI. PS: i have SEE-
> YOU installed on the lap top and it puts an icon before the IGC file name
> on every flight I download. Thanks.
> bob holliday USA

I'd suggest that you and your observer review the IGC approval for the
302. One way to get there is via this link

http://www.fai.org/gliding/system/files/igc_approved_frs.pdf

then clicking on cambridge 302 will allow a download of the approval
which contains the following:

"7. Analysis of Flight Data. Analysis for flights to be validated to
IGC criteria should be through the use of a
program which complies with IGC rules and procedures and is approved
for this purpose by the relevant NAC.
For a list of programs which are capable of reading and displaying
flight data in the IGC file format, see the
fai.org/gliding/gnss web site under the link to SOFTWARE (the full web
reference is at the beginning of this
document). Before a Flight Performance is officially validated, the
authority responsible for validation must
check that the data in the IGC file has originated from the Recorder
concerned, and has not been altered after it
was download from the Recorder to a PC. This is simply done by
checking the IGC data file with an authorised
copy of the VALICAM2.EXE short program. The VALI program is on a
single file and must have originated
from the current FAI/IGC web site for software at the beginning of
this document. See Annex B for how to use
the VALI program file with any IGC flight data file."

and

"B.2.3 Transferring the Flight Data. The flight data can be
transferred to a portable PC at the glider,
without disturbing the installation of the FR (see para A7.1). If a
portable PC is not available, the OO shall
check and break any sealing to the glider, and take the FR to a PC. As
this model is designed primarily for
panel mounting, this should be avoided wherever possible. If the OO is
not familiar with the actions
required, the pilot or another person may transfer the data while the
OO witnesses the process. Security is
maintained by electronic coding embedded in the FR which is then
independently checked later at the NAC
(and at FAI if the claim goes to them) through the VALIDATE (VALI)
program.
Method: Use the standard IGC connector cable that has a 9-pin RS232
male connector for the FR and a
RS232 female connector for the PC. A current version of the short
program file DATCAM2.EXE (or the
manufacturer's equivalent Windows-based program) must be available on
the PC. The DATACAM2
program is available free from the IGC GNSS web site for software
given at the beginning of this
document, or through a link from the main fai.org/gliding/gnss web
site. The DATA program file can be
executed on either a floppy diskette or on the PC hard disk. When the
DATA program is executed, the
software version is shown at the top of the menu (see under software
on page 1, which gives the required
version). This program file executes in the normal way such as either
by typing "DATACAM2, enter" at
a DOS prompt (DOS window or re-boot into DOS mode); or by double-
clicking "DATACAM2" in a
Windows file list (File Manager for W3x, Windows Explorer for W95/98/
ME or NT/2000/XP). If
settings such as the COM port, Baud rate, etc. need to be changed, the
help menu is accessed by typing
the file name, space, hyphen, then the letter h. In the event of any
problems in getting DATACAM2 to
work through the hard disk of a PC, install it on a self-booting
floppy diskette, re-boot to the diskette and
type "DATACAM2".
Files produced. This process will automatically produce a *.IGC-format
flight data file both with the
file name YMDCXXXF, where Y=year, M=month, D=day, C= manufacturer, XXX
= FR Serial
Number/letters and F = flight number of the day (full key, Appendix 1
to the IGC GNSS FR
Specification, also listed in Annex C to the Sporting Code, SC3C)."

I don't see any reference to a CAI file not do I think the 302 can
produce one. All references are to the IGC file.

Andy

[Andy[_1_]]

On Sep 2, 5:23*pm, Andy > wrote:

> I don't see any reference to a CAI file not do I think the 302 can
> produce one. All references are to the IGC file.

p.s.

The assertion that a CAI file is more secure than the IGC file relates
to Cambridge recorders that pre-date the 302 series. Those earlier
recorders produced ONLY a CAI file and it has to be post processed to
create an IGC file that then has no security.

Andy

[T8]

On Sep 2, 8:23*pm, Andy > wrote:

> I don't see any reference to a CAI file not do I think the 302 can
> produce one.

Right, it's not in the docs, anywhere. But it can, and it will.

The fact that the binary download is blazingly fast compared to the
typical igc d/l causes me to wonder if the 302 uses the old cai format
internally and the igc file creation is done 'on the fly' during
download.

-T8

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sep 2, 4:38*pm, 5Z > wrote:
> On Sep 2, 4:25*pm, Robert Holliday > wrote:
>
> > I currently download my flights using 3UTPC256 which creates an IGC file. I
> > am applying for a state record on one of my flights and we sent the flight
> > file to our state record keeper in the IGC format. He is insisting that we
> > send him a CAI file which he claims is more secure. Can someone help me
> > figure out how to get this flight off of my 302 in CAI. PS: i have SEE-
> > YOU installed on the lap top and it puts an icon before the IGC file name
> > on every flight I download. Thanks.
> > bob holliday USA
>
> There is no such thing as a CAI file on the 302. *It produces IGC
> natively.
>
> -Tom

And the IGC file produced from a 302 is actually more secure than
anything out of a Model 20/25 etc that produces a CAI file. The record
keeper simply validates a C302 file with the valicam2.exe file (not
the valicam that is for the Mode 20/25 etc.).

They probably just made a slip thinking this was an older Cambridge
(but I'd have hoped they look at the log file header etc. to be sure).

Darryl

[Tony[_5_]]

On Sep 2, 6:25*pm, Robert Holliday > wrote:
> I currently download my flights using 3UTPC256 which creates an IGC file. I
> am applying for a state record on one of my flights and we sent the flight
> file to our state record keeper in the IGC format. He is insisting that we
> send him a CAI file which he claims is more secure. Can someone help me
> figure out how to get this flight off of my 302 in CAI. PS: i have SEE-
> YOU installed on the lap top and it puts an icon before the IGC file name
> on every flight I download. Thanks.
> bob holliday USA

hey bob, what state record did you beat?

[Eric Greenwell]

On 9/2/2010 6:07 PM, T8 wrote:
> On Sep 2, 8:23 pm, > wrote:
>
>
>> I don't see any reference to a CAI file not do I think the 302 can
>> produce one.
>>
> Right, it's not in the docs, anywhere. But it can, and it will.
>
I've never heard of this claim before, and if it's not in the approval
document, you can't use it, anyway.
> The fact that the binary download is blazingly fast compared to the
> typical igc d/l causes me to wonder if the 302 uses the old cai format
> internally and the igc file creation is done 'on the fly' during
> download.
>
Nope, the 302 uses a different, more secure algorithm than the old Model
20, etc, and that is why it has the highest level of IGC approval (all
flights), and the Model 10, 20, and 25 do not (badges only).

--

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)

[5Z]

I thought the binary download is a raw memory dump, not a CAI,
suitable for debugging and nothing else.

-Tom

On Sep 2, 6:07*pm, T8 > wrote:
> The fact that the binary download is blazingly fast compared to the
> typical igc d/l causes me to wonder if the 302 uses the old cai format
> internally and the igc file creation is done 'on the fly' during
> download.

[T8]

On Sep 2, 11:30*pm, 5Z > wrote:
> I thought the binary download is a raw memory dump, not a CAI,
> suitable for debugging and nothing else.


Don't know for sure as it's undocumented. Only reason I was fooling
around with this was trying all available options to recover a flight
log with a security problem. It gave me a file with a .cai
extension. I don't recall now if I did anything with the file past
that point, or not. If they were using the same extension for two
different file types, well, I really don't have anything very nice to
say about that.

-T8

[NG[_2_]]

>"...The record keeper simply validates a C302 file with the valicam2.exe file..."

By the way, valicam2.exe will not run on a 64-bit computer (most new
ones are), and R-Track has no plans to produce a 64-bit version. And
Microsoft's 32-bit emulator will only run on the high-end version of
Windows 7. So the requirement to run valicam on igc files needs to go
away....

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sep 3, 5:53*am, NG > wrote:
> >"...The record *keeper simply validates a C302 file with the valicam2.exe file..."
>
> By the way, valicam2.exe will not run on a 64-bit computer (most new
> ones are), and R-Track has no plans to produce a 64-bit version. *And
> Microsoft's 32-bit emulator will only run on the high-end version of
> Windows 7. *So the requirement to run valicam on igc files needs to go
> away....

And http://www.dosbox.com or other possible solutions don't work? I
guess if you only want to do this via the Microsoft virtual machine
route then don't buy the Windows 7 Crap Edition.

Sorry it's just impossible to have simultaneous thoughts of sympathy
and Microsoft Windows purchaser in my head at the same time. I run
valicam2 on my Mac....

Darryl

[Nick Hill[_2_]]

At 12:53 03 September 2010, NG wrote:
>By the way, valicam2.exe will not run on a 64-bit computer (most new
>ones are), and R-Track has no plans to produce a 64-bit version. And
>Microsoft's 32-bit emulator will only run on the high-end version of
>Windows 7. So the requirement to run valicam on igc files needs to go
>away....
>

or the GNSS flight recorder spec needs updating to keep pace with the
march of time and computer OS updates....

http://www.fai.org/gliding/system/files/tech_spec_gnss.pdf

The last update was in May 2008 so the older DOS based conv/vali/data
programs would still run but the push was obviously to move over to the
IGC Shell method for windows.

Looking on the IGC site http://www.fai.org/gliding/gnss/freeware.asp it
looks like cambridge don't supply a DLL to work with the IGC Shell either
so they are locking their customers into old DOS utilities.

As more people move to 64-bit then the IGC Shell also needs to support
this as the ability to run old DOS utilities becomes increasingly harder.
However at present Appendix 3 states:

"The DLLs must work with 32-bit MS Windows Operating Systems used in
types of PCs commonly used for downloading flight data shortly after
flight. This includes, but is not exclusive to, Windows XP and Vista home
and professional editions."

Validating traces is still a valid requirement so the tools to do so need
to keep up with times.

Nick H

[john mittell]

On Sep 2, 7:25*pm, Robert Holliday > wrote:
> I currently download my flights using 3UTPC256 which creates an IGC file. I
> am applying for a state record on one of my flights and we sent the flight
> file to our state record keeper in the IGC format. He is insisting that we
> send him a CAI file which he claims is more secure. Can someone help me
> figure out how to get this flight off of my 302 in CAI. PS: i have SEE-
> YOU installed on the lap top and it puts an icon before the IGC file name
> on every flight I download. Thanks.
> bob holliday USA

I suggest you talk with Paul Remde at Cumulus Soaring.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sep 16, 8:56*am, john mittell > wrote:
> On Sep 2, 7:25*pm, Robert Holliday > wrote:
>
> > I currently download my flights using 3UTPC256 which creates an IGC file. I
> > am applying for a state record on one of my flights and we sent the flight
> > file to our state record keeper in the IGC format. He is insisting that we
> > send him a CAI file which he claims is more secure. Can someone help me
> > figure out how to get this flight off of my 302 in CAI. PS: i have SEE-
> > YOU installed on the lap top and it puts an icon before the IGC file name
> > on every flight I download. Thanks.
> > bob holliday USA
>
> I suggest you talk with Paul Remde at Cumulus Soaring.

Why? The question was answered here.

Darryl