Std Cirrus: Blue or Gray trim color ONLY!...why?

[Scott Alexander[_2_]]

On my last annual, the IA showed me the AD's and a special note for
Standard Cirrus gliders that they can only have "light gray or blue
trim colors only." huh???

My contest ID is "medium gray" and I was told he would "let it slide
this year".......OK!!! Whatever!!

He wasn't making it up, he showed me the printout. The IA was just as
surprised as I was. Anyone know why this is?

Scott Alexander
Standard Cirrus #118

[Tony[_5_]]

On Sep 5, 6:24*am, Scott Alexander >
wrote:
> On my last annual, the IA showed me the AD's and a special note for
> Standard Cirrus gliders that they can only have "light gray or blue
> trim colors only." *huh???
>
> My contest ID is "medium gray" and I was told he would "let it slide
> this year".......OK!!! Whatever!!
>
> He wasn't making it up, he showed me the printout. *The IA was just as
> surprised as I was. *Anyone know why this is?
>
> Scott Alexander
> Standard Cirrus #118

i believe it is to prevent hot spots. i think the Std Libelle and
perhaps other early glass ships have similar limitations.

[Scott Alexander[_2_]]

After the multiple mid-airs we have had this year, I am wanting to add
some high-vis trim colors on the nose, wingtips and rudder. How would
I go about getting approval for a high visibility color that isn't
blue or gray? Or maybe there's a high visibility blue out there I can
use.

[Wayne Paul]

"Scott Alexander" > wrote in message ...
> After the multiple mid-airs we have had this year, I am wanting to add
> some high-vis trim colors on the nose, wingtips and rudder. How would
> I go about getting approval for a high visibility color that isn't
> blue or gray? Or maybe there's a high visibility blue out there I can
> use.

Scott,

If you are a member of the SSA you might want to read John Greene's article in the Sept 1975 issue of Soaring.
(http://www.ssa.org/magazine/archive/Issue.aspx?year=1975&month=9&page=03)
The article is on PDF page 24 & 25.

I am sure similar tests are what lead up to the creation of the AD.

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
(Which can be painted any color; however I have chosen white.)

[JS]

Look at the Schempp website, Tech notes and downloads, standard
cirrus, TM 278-4.
Jim

On Sep 5, 5:31*am, Scott Alexander >
wrote:
> After the multiple mid-airs we have had this year, I am wanting to add
> some high-vis trim colors on the nose, wingtips and rudder. *How would
> I go about getting approval for a high visibility color that isn't
> blue or gray? *Or maybe there's a high visibility blue out there I can
> use.

[Wayne Paul]

"Scott Alexander" > wrote in message ...
> After the multiple mid-airs we have had this year, I am wanting to add
> some high-vis trim colors on the nose, wingtips and rudder. How would
> I go about getting approval for a high visibility color that isn't
> blue or gray? Or maybe there's a high visibility blue out there I can
> use.

Scott,

If you are a member of the SSA you might want to read John Greene's article in the Sept 1975 issue of Soaring.
(http://www.ssa.org/magazine/archive/Issue.aspx?year=1975&month=9&page=03)
The article is on PDF page 24 & 25.

I am sure similar tests are what lead up to the creation of the AD.

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
(Which can be painted any color; however I have chosen white.)

[R[_3_]]

On 9/5/2010 7:24 AM, Scott Alexander wrote:
> On my last annual, the IA showed me the AD's and a special note for
> Standard Cirrus gliders that they can only have "light gray or blue
> trim colors only." huh???

Is it just light blue and gray to which you are limited?
The US type certificate G23EU for the "STANDARD CIRRUS" includes other
light colors.
> NOTE 3. All external portions of the glider exposed to sunlight must
be painted white. Registration and Competition
> numbers must be painted blue-gray or in any other light colors.
This note's exact same verbiage is also found on other fiberglass makes
and models from the late 60's through 1980.
Is there a change to the STD CIRRUS TCDS someplace requiring "only" the
blue-gray or are you working from his interpretation of what a light
color should be? The last revision for the TCDS was June 3,1976.

G23EU:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/52ab636a446c519686256e5f00477449/$FILE/G23eu.PDF


Russ

[John Dezzutti[_3_]]

Scott,

First you declare a task with your contest ID instead of your registration
number and now you have medium gray trim instead of light grey. What's
next? No respect for the rules. What are you some sort of troble maker?

JD

[[email protected]]

Read the TCDS for the Cirrus.

Your IA is correct.

And you cannot get around this by going Experimental E&R...

[Gary Boggs]

Haven't test by the military shown that anything other than all white
less visable?

Boggs

On Sep 5, 5:31*am, Scott Alexander >
wrote:
> After the multiple mid-airs we have had this year, I am wanting to add
> some high-vis trim colors on the nose, wingtips and rudder. *How would
> I go about getting approval for a high visibility color that isn't
> blue or gray? *Or maybe there's a high visibility blue out there I can
> use.

[SoaringXCellence]

On Sep 5, 9:22*pm, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
> Haven't test by the military shown that anything other than all white
> less visable?
>
> Boggs
>
> On Sep 5, 5:31*am, Scott Alexander >
> wrote:
>
> > After the multiple mid-airs we have had this year, I am wanting to add
> > some high-vis trim colors on the nose, wingtips and rudder. *How would
> > I go about getting approval for a high visibility color that isn't
> > blue or gray? *Or maybe there's a high visibility blue out there I can
> > use.

I think I heard that in Sweden that ALL sailplanes are required to
have "high visibility" wing tips, nose and tail. I know that several
imports from Sweden did come with such markings.

You might check with the manufacturer about how they meet the Sweden
requirements

Mike

[David Salmon[_2_]]

At 05:16 06 September 2010, SoaringXCellence wrote:
>On Sep 5, 9:22=A0pm, GARY BOGGS wrote:
>> Haven't test by the military shown that anything other than all white
>> less visable?
>>
>> Boggs
>>
>> On Sep 5, 5:31=A0am, Scott Alexander
>> wrote:
>>
>> > After the multiple mid-airs we have had this year, I am wanting to
add
>> > some high-vis trim colors on the nose, wingtips and rudder. =A0How
>woul=
>d
>> > I go about getting approval for a high visibility color that isn't
>> > blue or gray? =A0Or maybe there's a high visibility blue out there
I
>ca=
>n
>> > use.
>
>I think I heard that in Sweden that ALL sailplanes are required to
>have "high visibility" wing tips, nose and tail. I know that several
>imports from Sweden did come with such markings.
>
>You might check with the manufacturer about how they meet the Sweden
>requirements
>
>Mike

Quite a long time ago, the BGA did some controlled tests re visibility
markings. I can't remember the details, but I am fairly certain that the
findings were that conspicuity patches etc did nothing to improve seeing
gliders in the air.
Dave
>

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Mon, 06 Sep 2010 08:19:20 +0000, David Salmon wrote:

> At 05:16 06 September 2010, SoaringXCellence wrote:
>>On Sep 5, 9:22=A0pm, GARY BOGGS wrote:
>>> Haven't test by the military shown that anything other than all white
>>> less visable?
>>>
>>> Boggs
>>>
>>> On Sep 5, 5:31=A0am, Scott Alexander
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > After the multiple mid-airs we have had this year, I am wanting to
> add
>>> > some high-vis trim colors on the nose, wingtips and rudder. =A0How
>>woul=
>>d
>>> > I go about getting approval for a high visibility color that isn't
>>> > blue or gray? =A0Or maybe there's a high visibility blue out there
> I
>>ca=
>>n
>>> > use.
>>
>>I think I heard that in Sweden that ALL sailplanes are required to have
>>"high visibility" wing tips, nose and tail. I know that several imports
>>from Sweden did come with such markings.
>>
>>You might check with the manufacturer about how they meet the Sweden
>>requirements
>>
>>Mike
>
> Quite a long time ago, the BGA did some controlled tests re visibility
> markings. I can't remember the details, but I am fairly certain that the
> findings were that conspicuity patches etc did nothing to improve seeing
> gliders in the air.
>
I seem to remember that to be any use the patches must be big and a
single colour - small patches and/or multicoloured ones are quite good
camouflage.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Andy[_1_]]

On Sep 5, 4:24*am, Scott Alexander >
wrote:
> My contest ID is "medium gray" and I was told he would "let it slide
> this year".......OK!!! Whatever!!

How does either of you know it is "medium" gray? Get samples of a
very dark gray and another gray half way between that dark gray and
the one on your glider. You will find that your gray is the "light"
gray in that group of 3.

If you are really concerned that the shade is a structural issue I'd
suggest determining the RAL color equivalent and asking SH if it is
ok.

http://www.ralcolor.com/

Andy

[John Gilbert[_2_]]

On Sep 5, 10:16*pm, SoaringXCellence > wrote:
> On Sep 5, 9:22*pm, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
>
> > Haven't test by the military shown that anything other than all white
> > less visable?
>
> > Boggs
>
> > On Sep 5, 5:31*am, Scott Alexander >
> > wrote:
>
> > > After the multiple mid-airs we have had this year, I am wanting to add
> > > some high-vis trim colors on the nose, wingtips and rudder. *How would
> > > I go about getting approval for a high visibility color that isn't
> > > blue or gray? *Or maybe there's a high visibility blue out there I can
> > > use.
>
> I think I heard that in Sweden that ALL sailplanes are required to
> have "high visibility" wing tips, nose and tail. *I know that several
> imports from Sweden did come with such markings.
>
> You might check with the manufacturer about how they meet the Sweden
> requirements
>
> Mike

My understanding is that the hi-vis markings are for landing out in
snow. In the air, the darker tips tend to decrease visible span.
John

[8A]

This restriction is definatly due to temperature issues (glass
transition temperature) with room temperature cure epoxy. This issue
is very real. I can show you damage on the wing of 8A where a
previous owner left a dark object. As for colored markings -
reference TN 278-4 But you will need to read German.

There has been considerable testing by the aircraft industry on this
subject.

H.L.C.
Test Engineer Beech / Raytheon Aircraft, NIAR