Puchacz New Cautionary Tale/Tail

[CindyB[_2_]]

Folks:

You will not yet find this on any accident/incident reports.
There were no fatalities.

A pilot called me to relay this story.
The SZD-50-3 Puchacsz was bought used from Europe and
imported to the US with ~1900 hours. The glider was given a US
airworthiness inspection, and licensed by an FAA
inspector last week Thursday or so. It went into legal service
before the weekend.

On Saturday, following only a few flights, the pilot felt some
restriction in rudder movement, and asked the front seat passenger
to adjust the length of rudder stirrups for more freedom of movement.
The passenger complied, and free movement was "restored."

The flight continued in nice lift, and some mild maneuvers
for perhaps twenty five more minutes prior to landing.
As the glider came to a halt, the ground personnel roared up to the
cockpit
and informed the pilot that there was no rudder on the machine.
All parties were amazed.

A search by air for the missing rudder were fruitless.
I have not seen the Puchacsz.
I do not have pictures or links to any photos.
I cannot comment on the mode of departure.
I do not know if the cables or swedges and thimbles are on
the machine, nor if the vertical hinges are in place on
the rear face of the vertical fin.

I do know there was a mandatory service item to replace the
rudder stop elastic nut on the bottom bolt with a castelated nut
and safety key. I cannot say if this was done, found, gone or
otherwise on the machine in question.

I do know that you should look at the attachments of
controls and moving parts fully and carefully on each
pre-flight inspection. Things change and move over time.

The pilot in this case asked me to put the information out
to the soaring community, PRIOR to any formal incident
investigation, to prevent any possible similar occurrence.

Cindy Brickner
Southern California
www.caracole-soaring.com

[JJ Sinclair]

On Sep 6, 6:50*pm, CindyB > wrote:
> Folks:
>
> You will not yet find this on any accident/incident reports.
> There were no fatalities.
>
> *A pilot called me to relay this story.
> The SZD-50-3 Puchacsz was bought used from Europe and
> imported to the US with ~1900 hours. The glider was given a US
> airworthiness inspection, and licensed by an FAA
> inspector last week Thursday or so. *It went into legal service
> before the weekend.
>
> On Saturday, following only a few flights, the pilot felt some
> restriction in rudder movement, and asked the front seat passenger
> to adjust the length of rudder stirrups for more freedom of movement.
> The passenger complied, and free movement was "restored."
>
> The flight continued in nice lift, and some mild maneuvers
> for perhaps twenty five more minutes prior to landing.
> As the glider came to a halt, the ground personnel roared up to the
> cockpit
> and informed the pilot that there was no rudder on the machine.
> All parties were amazed.
>
> A search by air for the missing rudder were fruitless.
> I have not seen the Puchacsz.
> I do not have pictures or links to any photos.
> I cannot comment on the mode of departure.
> I do not know if the cables or swedges and thimbles are on
> the machine, nor if the vertical hinges are in place on
> the rear face of the vertical fin.
>
> I do know there was a mandatory service item to replace the
> rudder stop elastic nut on the bottom bolt with a castelated nut
> and safety key. *I cannot say if this was done, found, gone or
> otherwise on the machine in question.
>
> I do know that you should look at the attachments of
> controls and moving parts fully and carefully on each
> pre-flight inspection. *Things change and move over time.
>
> The pilot in this case asked me to put the information out
> to the soaring community, PRIOR to any formal incident
> investigation, to prevent any possible similar occurrence.
>
> Cindy Brickner
> Southern Californiawww.caracole-soaring.com

There is a mandatory service bulletin/AD to replace the lower rudder
mount bolt. If the nut on the old bolt unscrews, the rudder can fall
off! The cables drive a plate with vertical pins that fit into the
rudder. The cables are not connected directly to the rudder. This and
several other AD's and service bulletins should have been checked on
the annual inspection. Another biggie is to replace the aluminum turn-
buckles that are bolted directly to the rear rudder pedals with steel
turn-buckles and an 8" cable to get them off the rudder pedals where
rear pilot can/will kick and bend ..............do that a few times
and the aluminum turn-buckle breaks.....................then you are
in a world of hurts!
Who did the annual?
JJ
JJ

[ASM]

On Sep 6, 6:50*pm, CindyB > wrote:
> Folks:
>
> You will not yet find this on any accident/incident reports.
> There were no fatalities.
>
> *A pilot called me to relay this story.
> The SZD-50-3 Puchacsz was bought used from Europe and
> imported to the US with ~1900 hours. The glider was given a US
> airworthiness inspection, and licensed by an FAA
> inspector last week Thursday or so. *It went into legal service
> before the weekend.
>
> On Saturday, following only a few flights, the pilot felt some
> restriction in rudder movement, and asked the front seat passenger
> to adjust the length of rudder stirrups for more freedom of movement.
> The passenger complied, and free movement was "restored."
>
> The flight continued in nice lift, and some mild maneuvers
> for perhaps twenty five more minutes prior to landing.
> As the glider came to a halt, the ground personnel roared up to the
> cockpit
> and informed the pilot that there was no rudder on the machine.
> All parties were amazed.
>
> A search by air for the missing rudder were fruitless.
> I have not seen the Puchacsz.
> I do not have pictures or links to any photos.
> I cannot comment on the mode of departure.
> I do not know if the cables or swedges and thimbles are on
> the machine, nor if the vertical hinges are in place on
> the rear face of the vertical fin.
>
> I do know there was a mandatory service item to replace the
> rudder stop elastic nut on the bottom bolt with a castelated nut
> and safety key. *I cannot say if this was done, found, gone or
> otherwise on the machine in question.
>
> I do know that you should look at the attachments of
> controls and moving parts fully and carefully on each
> pre-flight inspection. *Things change and move over time.
>
> The pilot in this case asked me to put the information out
> to the soaring community, PRIOR to any formal incident
> investigation, to prevent any possible similar occurrence.
>
> Cindy Brickner
> Southern Californiawww.caracole-soaring.co

Who do you blame for this incident? The glider or the inspector?

Jacek

[Gary Boggs]

How could you fly a glider without a rudder and not be able to tell
something is very wrong????

Was the yaw string missing too?

Boggs

[JJ Sinclair]

On Sep 6, 9:09*pm, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
> How could you fly a glider without a rudder and not be able to tell
> something is very wrong????
>
> Was the yaw string missing too?
>
> Boggs

Some students wouldn't know if the rudder fell off, because they never
use it anyway! It (the rudder) must weigh a good 20 pounds or so and
that much weight lost way back there would surely shift the CG out of
the forward limit. OK as long as speed is sufficient to keep elevator
authority. No Guy, my Puchacz went to Brazil and all the ad's were
complied with!
Cheers,
JJ

[JC]

On Sep 7, 1:09*am, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
> How could you fly a glider without a rudder and not be able to tell
> something is very wrong????
>
> Was the yaw string missing too?
>
> Boggs

I agree with Gary.. How could the pilot not notice the rudder is gone?
Our club DG200 had the rudder pop out on a winch launch and it fell
back and hung from the rudder cables. The pilot felt both pedals go
forward and get stuck. He completed the launch and from the ground he
was told that his rudder came off so he made gentle turns and landed
without trouble. A few days later we got the AD calling for a larger
washer on the lower hinge bolt...
With no rudder he could only make very gentle, shallow turns without
having the yaw string all over the place.

Regards,

Juan Carlos

[Paul Tribe]

At 04:09 07 September 2010, GARY BOGGS wrote:
>How could you fly a glider without a rudder and not be able to tell
>something is very wrong????
>
>Was the yaw string missing too?
>
>Boggs
>

My thoughts exactly!

Whilst not wishing to undermine the obvious safety message about
ensuring the rudder is firmly attached to the aircraft, this missive
has the distinct odour of urban myth...

If I recall correctly, one of the very first lessons in gliding is the
secondary effects of using the controls. This includes adverse yaw
due to aileron movement without rudder!

[Eric Munk]

Going on some years of experience maintaining three high-time Puchaczes,
I'd say these are your options:
- Rudder not properly installed after maintenance. The only thing holding
the rudder in place is a castelled nut (visible from the underside of the
fuselage, behind the tailwheel). To remove the rudder for maintenance,
remove the split pin and castelled nut, and the rudder may be lifted off
upwards. The rudder cables are attached to a rudder drive - butterfly
shaped - that automatically connects when the rudder is refitted. Lovely
system, actually. Now, sometimes people do not take out the lower
(castelled) nut, but the nyloc nut that holds the bottom rudder hinge pin
to the rudder itself. That saves some time fiddling with splitpins (while
working upside down), but also creates the hazard of rehanging the rudder
without fitting this nut, and to a quick inspection from the underside of
the aircraft it looks OK (bottom castelled nut properly fitted), while it
is actually loose in the aircraft (top nyloc missing). I had one of these
when I did an annual after maintenance, lovely situation to catch in
time...
- Service Bulletin BE-058 not complied with, not checked or improperly
done. It says to check the bottom nut. If another type of nut is there
(e.g. nyloc), it needs to be replaced by a castelled nut. Shortly
afterwards, a Puchacz in the UK lost its rudder: it had a nyloc replaced
by a castelled nut, but the inspector in question had overlooked that a
hole for the splitplin was already there when he drilled a new one,
weakening the bolt which subsequently failed. All other SB's relating to
the rudder system, were regarding the attachment of the cables to the
rudder pedals (which were a completely different although very important
problem altogether).
- A structural problem. There's two known weakpoints in the Puch's
rudder attachment. First (a minor one) is the plywood (vertical) support
under the rudder cable drive (the butterfly shaped thing). The glued joint
on the topside (to the horizontal plywood mount of the butterfly lever)
tends to fail sometimes. However, this alone should not result in the
rudder to depart the aircraft, or even the rudder controls to become
difficult. Then there's also the problem the GFA alerted the world about
(but which has not yet made it into an SB or AD) of cracks found in the
horizontal support plywood of the butterfly lever. This however, should
result in the rudder becoming inoperable, but it should remain on the
aircraft since the mounting is not affected. Then there's always the
chance of a different hitherto unknown structural problem altogether...

Just giving you information to work out the problem at hand. Not pointing
fingers here (which is a pointless thing to do anyway).

Eric

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 9/7/2010 11:10 AM, Eric Munk wrote:
> Going on some years of experience maintaining three high-time Puchaczes,
> I'd say these are your options:
> - Rudder not properly installed after maintenance. The only thing holding
> the rudder in place is a castelled nut (visible from the underside of the
> fuselage, behind the tailwheel). To remove the rudder for maintenance,
> remove the split pin and castelled nut, and the rudder may be lifted off
> upwards. The rudder cables are attached to a rudder drive - butterfly
> shaped - that automatically connects when the rudder is refitted. Lovely
> system, actually. Now, sometimes people do not take out the lower
> (castelled) nut, but the nyloc nut that holds the bottom rudder hinge pin
> to the rudder itself. That saves some time fiddling with splitpins (while
> working upside down), but also creates the hazard of rehanging the rudder
> without fitting this nut, and to a quick inspection from the underside of
> the aircraft it looks OK (bottom castelled nut properly fitted), while it
> is actually loose in the aircraft (top nyloc missing). I had one of these
> when I did an annual after maintenance, lovely situation to catch in
> time...
> - Service Bulletin BE-058 not complied with, not checked or improperly
> done. It says to check the bottom nut. If another type of nut is there
> (e.g. nyloc), it needs to be replaced by a castelled nut. Shortly
> afterwards, a Puchacz in the UK lost its rudder: it had a nyloc replaced
> by a castelled nut, but the inspector in question had overlooked that a
> hole for the splitplin was already there when he drilled a new one,
> weakening the bolt which subsequently failed. All other SB's relating to
> the rudder system, were regarding the attachment of the cables to the
> rudder pedals (which were a completely different although very important
> problem altogether).
> - A structural problem. There's two known weakpoints in the Puch's
> rudder attachment. First (a minor one) is the plywood (vertical) support
> under the rudder cable drive (the butterfly shaped thing). The glued joint
> on the topside (to the horizontal plywood mount of the butterfly lever)
> tends to fail sometimes. However, this alone should not result in the
> rudder to depart the aircraft, or even the rudder controls to become
> difficult. Then there's also the problem the GFA alerted the world about
> (but which has not yet made it into an SB or AD) of cracks found in the
> horizontal support plywood of the butterfly lever. This however, should
> result in the rudder becoming inoperable, but it should remain on the
> aircraft since the mounting is not affected. Then there's always the
> chance of a different hitherto unknown structural problem altogether...
>
> Just giving you information to work out the problem at hand. Not pointing
> fingers here (which is a pointless thing to do anyway).
>
> Eric
>
I don't normally like to repeat an entire post, but (and speaking as someone
who has never actually seen a Puchacz in the flesh) this one deserves it IMHO.

Thanks, Eric, for an informed, informative and hugely useful post in response
to a (we can hope!) isolated if bizarre incident that could fairly easily have
ended badly. If I ever buy (or see) a Pooch, I know one area where I'll be
peering more intently, now!

Regards,
Bob W.

[danlj]

On Sep 7, 7:46*am, JC > wrote:
> On Sep 7, 1:09*am, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
>
> > How could you fly a glider without a rudder and not be able to tell
> > something is very wrong????...clip...
>
> > Boggs
>
> I agree with Gary.. How could the pilot not notice the rudder is gone?
> Our club DG200 had the rudder pop out on a winch launch and it fell
> back and hung from the rudder cables. The pilot felt both pedals go
> forward and get stuck. He completed the launch and from the ground he
> was told that his rudder came off so he made gentle turns and landed
> without trouble....clip...

We don't recognize when something has gone wrong with the rudder
because
a - we normally don't practice not having a rudder
b - really don't understand, in the seat of our pants, what it feels
like not to have one
So -- all we know at first is that *something is wrong*. (Note that
Juan Carlos points out that the pilot was TOLD his rudder was off.)
What that *something* is, ain't all that obvious. This is true for
MOST airplane malfunctions, not just rudder malfunctions. And the
emotional upset ("alarm") that we feel during the event hinders
rational analysis.

I speak as an expert, having once many years ago flown a Blanik L-13
with the rudder cables reversed. All I could tell was the rudder
*wasn't working*. So I put my feet on the floor. Which worked fine
until they quietly snuck back onto the pedals during the turn from
base to final. My personal mantra, "Speed is my friend" saved the day.

(Then, after the repair, one of us five guys who'd all missed the
rudder reversal, found the safety missing from the castellated nut
underneath the elevator bell crank and saved someone's life. An
airplane flies awkwardly but safely without a good rudder, but the
pilot dies without an elevator.)

DJ

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Mon, 06 Sep 2010 21:09:55 -0700, GARY BOGGS wrote:

> How could you fly a glider without a rudder and not be able to tell
> something is very wrong????
>
I'd rephrase that as "How could you fly a Puchacz without a rudder and
not notice?" because its rudder is enormous and has considerably higher
pedal pressures than any other glider I've flown.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[ray conlon]

On Sep 7, 6:37*pm, danlj > wrote:
> On Sep 7, 7:46*am, JC > wrote:
>
> > On Sep 7, 1:09*am, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
>
> > > How could you fly a glider without a rudder and not be able to tell
> > > something is very wrong????...clip...
>
> > > Boggs
>
> > I agree with Gary.. How could the pilot not notice the rudder is gone?
> > Our club DG200 had the rudder pop out on a winch launch and it fell
> > back and hung from the rudder cables. The pilot felt both pedals go
> > forward and get stuck. He completed the launch and from the ground he
> > was told that his rudder came off so he made gentle turns and landed
> > without trouble....clip...
>
> We don't recognize when something has gone wrong with the rudder
> because
> *a - we normally don't practice not having a rudder
> *b - really don't understand, in the seat of our pants, what it feels
> like not to have one
> So -- all we know at first is that *something is wrong*. (Note that
> Juan Carlos points out that the pilot was TOLD his rudder was off.)
> What that *something* is, ain't all that obvious. This is true for
> MOST airplane malfunctions, not just rudder malfunctions. And the
> emotional upset ("alarm") that we feel during the event hinders
> rational analysis.
>
> I speak as an expert, having once many years ago flown a Blanik L-13
> with the rudder cables reversed. All I could tell was the rudder
> *wasn't working*. So I put my feet on the floor. Which worked fine
> until they quietly snuck back onto the pedals during the turn from
> base to final. My personal mantra, "Speed is my friend" saved the day.
>
> (Then, after the repair, one of us five guys who'd all missed the
> rudder reversal, found the safety missing from the castellated nut
> underneath the elevator bell crank and saved someone's life. An
> airplane flies awkwardly but safely without a good rudder, but the
> pilot dies without an elevator.)
>
> DJ

After finding the rudder missing are new seat cushions also on order?

[F-U-Ed.]

On Sep 6, 6:50*pm, CindyB > wrote:
> Folks:
>
> You will not yet find this on any accident/incident reports.
> There were no fatalities.
>
> *A pilot called me to relay this story.
> The SZD-50-3 Puchacsz was bought used from Europe and
> imported to the US with ~1900 hours. The glider was given a US
> airworthiness inspection, and licensed by an FAA
> inspector last week Thursday or so. *It went into legal service
> before the weekend.
>
> On Saturday, following only a few flights, the pilot felt some
> restriction in rudder movement, and asked the front seat passenger
> to adjust the length of rudder stirrups for more freedom of movement.
> The passenger complied, and free movement was "restored."
>
> The flight continued in nice lift, and some mild maneuvers
> for perhaps twenty five more minutes prior to landing.
> As the glider came to a halt, the ground personnel roared up to the
> cockpit
> and informed the pilot that there was no rudder on the machine.
> All parties were amazed.
>
> A search by air for the missing rudder were fruitless.
> I have not seen the Puchacsz.
> I do not have pictures or links to any photos.
> I cannot comment on the mode of departure.
> I do not know if the cables or swedges and thimbles are on
> the machine, nor if the vertical hinges are in place on
> the rear face of the vertical fin.
>
> I do know there was a mandatory service item to replace the
> rudder stop elastic nut on the bottom bolt with a castelated nut
> and safety key. *I cannot say if this was done, found, gone or
> otherwise on the machine in question.
>
> I do know that you should look at the attachments of
> controls and moving parts fully and carefully on each
> pre-flight inspection. *Things change and move over time.
>
> The pilot in this case asked me to put the information out
> to the soaring community, PRIOR to any formal incident
> investigation, to prevent any possible similar occurrence.
>
> Cindy Brickner
> Southern Californiawww.caracole-soaring.com

Just for your information, before you so blatantly post such rude and
one sided statements, you should know that this pilot in particular
(whose identity is no secret to me) has a track record of severe
damage and abuse to not only this new ship that came from Europe, but
also to many other ships owned by the club as well. He is subject to
suspension from the club.
As a primary witness of that day, I saw that he repeatedly and
severely over-rotated the glider during take-off, and was sure to
smash the tail to the asphalt concrete after every landing. He was
instructed numerous times to fix this behavior. And before hand there
was even a 2 HOUR training session, which should have clearly let any
pilot there know how you should and should not handle this new glider.
He is known in our club for his poor glider handling skills, prior
damage to our Grob-103 (twice), severe tail damage to our Junior, and
at this point his carelessness that has led to his denial of being
such an inadequate pilot in the first place.
He is aspiring to become a glider instructor and to this I must say,
GOOD LUCK!
All the Puchacz AD's were completed by authorized shops in Europe.
There is an FAA investigation in process. We are following all and any
rules, so any statement made to the contrary, is extremely incorrect.
But what I have to say in accordance to this post, is that it was
immature and premature to have posted this at all. Ed S. is no saint
in the soaring community and if that is your perception on the man
after his phone call to "alert" the community and "save the Puchacz's
and their users", I can honestly say that you are all VERY mistaken.
Best Regards, Blue Skies and Happy Soaring to all :)

[Mike[_28_]]

FWIW, I don't see anything rude or one-sided in the text you quoted.
No opinions or conclusions, just a "heads up". Maybe the pilot is as
bad as you say. Maybe not. I see this a stark reminder to complete a
good pre-flight just in case damage happened on the previous
flight.

[ProfChrisReed]

I have quite a few hours in the back seat of a Puchacz, and like some
other posters suspect that the story as related to Cindy is somewhat
suspect. For example:

> On Saturday, following only a few flights, the pilot felt some
> restriction in rudder movement, and asked the front seat passenger
> to adjust the length of rudder stirrups for more freedom of movement.
> The passenger complied, and free movement was "restored."

Altering the front pedals merely lengthens or shortens the cable
connecting front and rear pedals - the cable which actuates the rudder
runs from the rear pedals to the rudder fittings. The only restriction
this change could affect would be that of the front pilot's feet on
the pedals.

Also the Puchacz is not strongly directionally stable even with the
rudder attached. With it missing, I'm sure the glider would have been
wallowing around the sky and clearly have felt utterly wrong, even
when attempting to fly straight. If:
>
> The flight continued in nice lift, and some mild maneuvers
> for perhaps twenty five more minutes prior to landing.

without a rudder, the pilot must have been flying in boxing gloves not
to notice something was very wrong.

I'm not saying the rudder didn't fall off, but I don't find the
"decorative" parts of the story convincing.

[Westbender]

> Just for your information, before you so blatantly post such rude and
> one sided statements, you should know that this pilot in particular
> (whose identity is no secret to me) has a track record of severe
> damage and abuse to not only this new ship that came from Europe, but
> also to many other ships owned by the club as well. He is subject to
> suspension from the club.
> As a primary witness of that day, I saw that he repeatedly and
> severely over-rotated the glider during take-off, and was sure to
> smash the tail to the asphalt concrete after every landing. He was
> instructed numerous times to fix this behavior. And before hand there
> was even a 2 HOUR training session, which should have clearly let any
> pilot there know how you should and should not handle this new glider.
> He is known in our club for his poor glider handling skills, prior
> damage to our Grob-103 (twice), severe tail damage to our Junior, and
> at this point his carelessness that has led to his denial of being
> such an inadequate pilot in the first place.
> He is aspiring to become a glider instructor and to this I must say,
> GOOD LUCK!
> All the Puchacz AD's were completed by authorized shops in Europe.
> There is an FAA investigation in process. We are following all and any
> rules, so any statement made to the contrary, is extremely incorrect.
> But what I have to say in accordance to this post, is that it was
> immature and premature to have posted this at all. Ed S. is no saint
> in the soaring community and if that is your perception on the man
> after his phone call to "alert" the community and "save the Puchacz's
> and their users", I can honestly say that you are all VERY mistaken.
> Best Regards, Blue Skies and Happy Soaring to all :)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I've read many posts from Cindy. Not one of them were ever "blatantly
rude or one-sided". Dude, take a deep breath and check your attitude a
little. That was way off base.

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 9/8/2010 12:19 AM, F-U-Ed. wrote:
> On Sep 6, 6:50 pm, > wrote:
>> Folks:
<Snip...>
>>
>> You will not yet find this on any accident/incident reports.
>> Cindy Brickner
>> Southern Californiawww.caracole-soaring.com
>
> Just for your information, before you so blatantly post such rude and
> one sided statements, you should know

[The alleged pilot] is no saint
> in the soaring community and if that is your perception on the man
> after his phone call to "alert" the community and "save the Puchacz's
> and their users", I can honestly say that you are all VERY mistaken.
> Best Regards, Blue Skies and Happy Soaring to all :)

Hmmm...of the two posts, the first one seems distinctly less overwrought than
the second one...but there IS a factual error in the first one. You CAN find a
listing of the incident in the preliminary FAA daily accident/incident data at...

http://www.faa.gov/data_research/accident_incident/preliminary_data/media/A_0907_N.txt

Within a few weeks it can be expected to show up as an NTSB Preliminary
Report, too.

I for one would much prefer to be alerted to incidents as these than to remain
in wondering ignorance. And while I'd also like to know more about the
individual pilots involved (because it may well influence my personal
conclusions about any incident...and personal conclusions about others'
misfortunes are always my own goal when it comes to my own future flight
safety), I recognize that generally only thos who know/knew the pilot(s)
involved are privy to such intensely personal information. Such is the way of
the world and human nature...

Regards,
Bob W.

P.S. For those paying attention to publicly available information, 2010 has
become a genuinely statistically bad year for U.S. soaring, both in quantity
and deaths. Please - let's try and avoid all avoidable incidents for at
*least* the rest of the calendar year!

[Brad[_2_]]

On Sep 7, 5:21*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> On Sep 6, 9:09*pm, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
>
> > How could you fly a glider without a rudder and not be able to tell
> > something is very wrong????
>
> > Was the yaw string missing too?
>
> > Boggs
>
> Some students wouldn't know if the rudder fell off, because they never
> use it anyway! It (the rudder) must weigh a good 20 pounds or so and
> that much weight lost way back there would surely shift the CG out of
> the forward limit. OK as long as speed is sufficient to keep elevator
> authority. No Guy, my Puchacz went to Brazil and all the ad's were
> complied with!
> Cheers,
> JJ

rudder? what's that?

Brad

"Cessna driver"

[AGL]

> rudder? what's that?
>
> Brad
>
> "Cessna driver"

As someone just pointed out to me, it's the thing that stops spins.

[Mike the Strike]

On Sep 8, 12:11*pm, Brad > wrote:
> On Sep 7, 5:21*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 6, 9:09*pm, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
>
> > > How could you fly a glider without a rudder and not be able to tell
> > > something is very wrong????
>
> > > Was the yaw string missing too?
>
> > > Boggs
>
> > Some students wouldn't know if the rudder fell off, because they never
> > use it anyway! It (the rudder) must weigh a good 20 pounds or so and
> > that much weight lost way back there would surely shift the CG out of
> > the forward limit. OK as long as speed is sufficient to keep elevator
> > authority. No Guy, my Puchacz went to Brazil and all the ad's were
> > complied with!
> > Cheers,
> > JJ
>
> rudder? what's that?
>
> Brad
>
> "Cessna driver"

It's the thing behind you that wags when you step on the nose-wheel
pedals.

Mike

[Larry Goddard]

"danlj" > wrote in message
:

> On Sep 7, 7:46*am, JC > wrote:
> > On Sep 7, 1:09*am, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
> >
> > > How could you fly a glider without a rudder and not be able to tell
> > > something is very wrong????...clip...
> >
> > > Boggs
> >
> > I agree with Gary.. How could the pilot not notice the rudder is gone?
> > Our club DG200 had the rudder pop out on a winch launch and it fell
> > back and hung from the rudder cables. The pilot felt both pedals go
> > forward and get stuck. He completed the launch and from the ground he
> > was told that his rudder came off so he made gentle turns and landed
> > without trouble....clip...
>
> We don't recognize when something has gone wrong with the rudder
> because
> a - we normally don't practice not having a rudder
> b - really don't understand, in the seat of our pants, what it feels
> like not to have one
> So -- all we know at first is that *something is wrong*. (Note that
> Juan Carlos points out that the pilot was TOLD his rudder was off.)
> What that *something* is, ain't all that obvious. This is true for
> MOST airplane malfunctions, not just rudder malfunctions. And the
> emotional upset ("alarm") that we feel during the event hinders
> rational analysis.
>
> I speak as an expert, having once many years ago flown a Blanik L-13
> with the rudder cables reversed. All I could tell was the rudder
> *wasn't working*. So I put my feet on the floor. Which worked fine
> until they quietly snuck back onto the pedals during the turn from
> base to final. My personal mantra, "Speed is my friend" saved the day.
>
> (Then, after the repair, one of us five guys who'd all missed the
> rudder reversal, found the safety missing from the castellated nut
> underneath the elevator bell crank and saved someone's life. An
> airplane flies awkwardly but safely without a good rudder, but the
> pilot dies without an elevator.)
>
> DJ



DJ, PCC's are your friend!!! A Positive Control Check where you push on
the left rudder pedal and say "Rudder-Left" should have found this
before takeoff.

Larry

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Sep 8, 12:11*pm, Brad > wrote:

> rudder? what's that?

It's a mere Cartesian abstraction; the horizontal projection of a
ruddervator.

Thanks, Bob K.

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Sep 7, 11:19*pm, "F-U-Ed." > wrote:

> Just for your information, before you so blatantly post such rude and
> one sided statements, you should know that this pilot...

[Full message and header omitted but on file.]

Reading Cindy's post, and even between its lines, I really don't see
any content that particularly defames the Puch. I'm guessing that most
European sailplanes are susceptible to very similar failure modes.
There is an excellent lesson here that a good PCC should also include
the axial play of control surfaces, and not just their deflection,
sense, and slop.

Also, if you really must post material like this, my suggestion would
be to do so either more completely anonymously or more openly. And
better yet either more moderately or not at all. I think we've all
occasionally posted in haste and repented at leisure, so I do
understand how strong feelings can cloud one's judgment. Mike's
suggestion of taking a deep breath before clicking Send is probably a
good one.

Thanks, Bob K.

[CindyB[_2_]]

> Reading Cindy's post, and even between its lines, I really don't see
> any content that particularly defames the Puch.

Thanks.
I'm sensitive about Pooches overall, and wanted to be as fair to the
airframe
as I could be.

> There is an excellent lesson here that a good PCC should also include
> the axial play of control surfaces, and not just their deflection,
> sense, and slop.
>

THAT was/is the message the pilot and I wanted to emphasize.
Thanks for the comment about AXIAL examination. I frequently see
pilots wobble surfaces about, sometimes too roughly, and VERY seldom
see someone check all surfaces for all three axes of movement. That
could perhaps have found this as a potential departure of a surface.

I was delighted to read the thread's progress tonight. Thank you to
Eric M. for the detail and thoughtfullness of his contribution. And to
JJ.
I couldn't begin to recall the fanny hardware, as the last 50-3 I knew
was over ten years ago, and only through one periodic inspection.
(Tongue bit and lips clenched. Restraint shown here.)

Thanks to many of you for defending my reputation! Ahhh, Chivalry.

And Bob W. -- the incident report wasn't YET published. ;-)
I wasn't waiting for Monday, as I only get to here intermittently.
I am glad to see it recorded, and will be curious to see what, if any
conclusions, can be drawn. I deliberately avoided any personal
conjecture,
writing only what was told to me. (Adjusting front pedals may have
masked a 'moment of change', or not.)


I did not point fingers of fault in any direction.
There are plenty of US glider "events" that never make it into any
reporting
system. I only did what was asked -- to try to have some good results
and discussions from an otherwise unsettling flight. I hope this
inspires
other pilots to POST and share things that keep each other more
aware, more conscientious and still having fun with each other in
2011.

We could all use the reminders.

Cindy
(who went wave soaring Wednesday)
www.caracole-soaring.com