AIM-54

[awg9tech]

Has the Phoenix ever been fired in battle?

[Jeroen Wenting]

I believe a few were used during the early stages of Desert Storm but I'm
not quite certain.
If not then no, it's not been used in anger (unless in some operation that's
so black even the conspiracy theorists haven't thought of it :) ).

"awg9tech" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Has the Phoenix ever been fired in battle?
>

[John Dallman]

In article om>,
(awg9tech) wrote:

> Has the Phoenix ever been fired in battle?

The Iranians may have fired some during the Iran-Iraq war, but the subject
is hotly disputed.

---
John Dallman, , HTML mail is treated as probable spam.

[awg9tech]

Well, I found a these two comments in this group (after I posted the
question, sorry)

"Just once by the U.S. on 05 Jan 99 at two Iraqi MiG-25s. Two F-14Ds
from
VF-32 fired one AIM-54C each. As soon as they were fired on, the MiGs
turned
tail and ran (nothing runs like a MiG-25 when it wants to+ADs- so what
if it
needs new engines after that flight). Also of note here is that in a
separate incident on the same day, three AIM-120s and one AIM-7M missed
their targets under very similar circumstances. I have no confirmed
information that the Iranians used it."

"Here is some of the information I recall reading about the incident
in
which the Phoenix had its first US use in combat. Just after the end of
Desert Fox two VF-213 Blacklions F-14Ds were patrolling in the Southern
no fly zone over Iraq. They were informed of a number (most likely two)
MiG-25s entering the zone (I don't know whether the Iraqis painted them
with thier radars, the F-14s noticed them themselves or were informed
by
an AWACS). The Tomcats turned north, towards the Iraqis, and fired one
Phoenix each, still at long range. The MiG-25s retreated and the
Tomcats
turned back south to avoid flying into a trap. Both missiles missed
their targets. Apparently the Phoenixes hadn't gone active yet or were
launched at such a long distance that they could no longer catch up
with
the retreating MiGs."

I have only found these and one other comment on globalsecurity.org
about the AIM-54 in combat. I'm just surprised to not have found more
info to collaborate (some say VF-32 others VF-213).

[D]

See the book Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat, by Cooper and Bishop. The
Iranians fired quite a few of them.

There's long been a popular myth that the Iranians lacked the ability to
keep their F-14's flying after they broke ranks with the United States.
Cooper and Bishop demonstrate that it's just a myth, and the Iranians
managed to keep quite a few of them flying for a long time. They even have
some in service today.



D

[D]

Just to add a little more detail...

The Cooper/Bishop book includes a list of all Iranian F-14 "kills" during
the war with Iraq. According to the authors, this list includes 159
"confirmed kills" (according to their criteria) and 34 possible/probable
"unconfirmed kills."

According to the authors, at a post-war conference in Tehran, commanders
from all the military and paramilitary forces discussed the war. They
determined that 71 AIM-54 Phoenix missiles had been fired during the war,
and 10 more had been lost in F-14 crashes. There were 16 confirmed AIM-54
kills, with 4 probable kills.



D

[[email protected]]

So, it seems not really as a perfect weapon as advertised - good for
large and relatively slow targets like Bears and Badgers, or dumb and
not very manoeuvrable like cruise missiles (even if they are coming in
numbers), but not the best against fighters?

Best regards,

Jacek Zemlo


awg9tech wrote:
> Well, I found a these two comments in this group (after I posted the
> question, sorry)
>
> "Just once by the U.S. on 05 Jan 99 at two Iraqi MiG-25s. Two F-14Ds
> from
> VF-32 fired one AIM-54C each. As soon as they were fired on, the MiGs
> turned
> tail and ran (nothing runs like a MiG-25 when it wants to+ADs- so
what
> if it
> needs new engines after that flight). Also of note here is that in a
> separate incident on the same day, three AIM-120s and one AIM-7M
missed
> their targets under very similar circumstances. I have no confirmed
> information that the Iranians used it."
>
> "Here is some of the information I recall reading about the incident
> in
> which the Phoenix had its first US use in combat. Just after the end
of
> Desert Fox two VF-213 Blacklions F-14Ds were patrolling in the
Southern
> no fly zone over Iraq. They were informed of a number (most likely
two)
> MiG-25s entering the zone (I don't know whether the Iraqis painted
them
> with thier radars, the F-14s noticed them themselves or were informed
> by
> an AWACS). The Tomcats turned north, towards the Iraqis, and fired
one
> Phoenix each, still at long range. The MiG-25s retreated and the
> Tomcats
> turned back south to avoid flying into a trap. Both missiles missed
> their targets. Apparently the Phoenixes hadn't gone active yet or
were
> launched at such a long distance that they could no longer catch up
> with
> the retreating MiGs."
>
> I have only found these and one other comment on globalsecurity.org
> about the AIM-54 in combat. I'm just surprised to not have found more
> info to collaborate (some say VF-32 others VF-213).

[Tom Cooper]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> So, it seems not really as a perfect weapon as advertised - good for
> large and relatively slow targets like Bears and Badgers, or dumb and
> not very manoeuvrable like cruise missiles (even if they are coming in
> numbers), but not the best against fighters?


Not really, then - as can be read in the mentioned book (see p.82) - on that
conference the Mullahs and the IRGC-commanders, despite obvious evidence for
over 130 kills being available (at that time, and without any
cross-examination with US and Iraqi sources), ignored these, and credited
the IRIAF with only 16 AIM-54 kills.

Meanwhile, we know about some 56 combat firings of AIM-54s by IRIAF F-14As
(at the time the book was written, we knew about some 40). Of these, four
are definitely known to have missed.

Majority of targets hit were - as can be seen from the list on pages 85 thru
88 - Iraqi fighters, including 5 MiG-21s, 12 MiG-23s, 5 Su-20/22s, and 7
Mirage F.1EQs, and two (Soviet-owned and -flown) MiG-27s.

The AIM-54s were used also to shot down 9 MiG-25s (including two
Soviet-owned and -flown MiG-25BMs), 4 Tu-22s (including two Soviet-flown
Tu-22Ks), single H-6D, one C.601 and up to three AM.39 Exocets. These can be
sorted under "non-manoeuvreable" targets. All the other kills were scored
against "manoeuvreable" tactical fighters (even if, of course, none of these
is as manoeuvreable as specific modern fighters).

Only two of mentioned kills were scored against manoeuvering targets, i.e.
targets that recognized the appearance of the F-14 in time, and were flying
evasive manoeuvres (in the sence of turning, not in the sence of turning to
run away) in attempt to spoil the firing solution or to evade the AIM-54.

All the other targets either never recognized the threat facing them - or
did so, but too late.

Conclusion: the "manoeuverability" of the target - or ability of the target
to fly hard turns, and pull gs - had no influence on the effectiveness of
AIM-54. As long as target did not know that it was under a threat by
F-14/AWG-9/AIM-54-combo, or already targeted by AIM-54, the probability of
the kill by this weapon was extremely high, and this regardless what kind of
target was under attack. The reason was that AIM-54 enabled the F-14 to
engage from ranges from which the opposition did not expect to be engaged,
as well as that the AWG-9 was either not even recognized by enemy RWR/RHAWs,
or powerful enough to saturate these. With other words: most of the
AIM-54-attacks came as a complete surprise for opposition.

Now, before somebody starts talking about "incompetent Iraqis", let me first
remaind that at least four of the crews downed by AIM-54s were Soviet
"instructors", while several of Iraqis that were killed by AIM-54s were
IrAF's best and most experienced fliers, considered as (at least) "USAF
fleet average" even in intel assessments released to the USAF and the USN
before the war in 1991. Based on what is known so far about the AIM-54's
deployment in Iran, the survivability of targets engaged by AIM-54s did not
depend as much on capability of crews of targeted aircraft, but on their
equipment. This survivability depended solely on answer to question if they
were equipped with RWRs, RHAWs or any other kind of systems that ensured
timely detection of AWG-9 in specific working modes, and - even more
important - detection of an AIM-54-attack.

Finally, something about engagement ranges: kills mentioned above were
scored from ranges between 4.5 (see photo p.26) and 140km (it is possible
that two or three kills were scored from longer ranges); majority from
ranges between 35 and 100km. The longer the range was, the less reaction on
the part of target was observed. In fact, only four or five "reactions" of
an aircraft targeted from a range longer than 30km were ever observed. In
each of these cases the target was a MiG-25.

--
************************************************** ***********************
Tom Cooper
Freelance aviation journalist
Author & Co-Author:

- Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S7875

- Arab MiG-19 and MiG-21 Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S6550

- Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S6585

- African MiGs
http://www.acig.org/afmig/

- Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
************************************************** ***********************

[NimBill]

>From: "awg9tech"

>Has the Phoenix ever been fired in battle?

I really do not know. The AIM-7 and AIM-9 certainly were.

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 1/25/05 7:57 PM, in article ,
"NimBill" > wrote:

>> From: "awg9tech"
>
>> Has the Phoenix ever been fired in battle?
>
> I really do not know. The AIM-7 and AIM-9 certainly were.
>

Got lobbed downrange post Desert Fox, I believe (circa 1999). Shot at a
couple of Iraqi fighters that had strayed across the 32nd. Assessed as a
miss.

--Woody

[agh]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> So, it seems not really as a perfect weapon as advertised - good for
> large and relatively slow targets like Bears and Badgers, or dumb and
> not very manoeuvrable like cruise missiles (even if they are coming in
> numbers), but not the best against fighters?

And you concluded all this from the fact that 2 missiles were fired from
very long range before the 25s were in the no-escape zone.. Or you just copy
and pasted it from somewhere?

Sounds to me like this mission was a success because they denied the enemy
to enter the defended airspace. If it was such an innefective weapon, the
Migs wouldn't run from it like crazy, they would just "outmanuever" it,
right? ;)

[[email protected]]

What I wanted to say were just two things:

1. That Phoenix must have been optimized for Cold War threats (bombers,
cruise missiles) more than for destroying tactical fighters.

I've heard about a AIM-120C sub-version for F/A-18E/F, with an
increased range, that would fill the gap after the F-14/AIM-54 team is
retired. Certainly not as big, and with a smaller warhead...

2. That the more distant the target is, the bigger chance it has to
survive (provided that it is aware of the danger) - no matter how
well-advertised the weapon is.

The only time to experience that for me personally was flying "F/A-18
Korea". AMRAAMs fired to distant targets, even when HUD was shouting
"SHOOT", very often missed (unless the target was a bomber, then the
hit was almost sure). But it was enough to launch an AIM-120 from a
short distance (just a few miles), to make it 80% probability hit.

Simulation is not a real life (though sometimes close to that), but
every weapon has its limitations - no matter if "made in USA" or from
another country...

Last but not least, you are right, the mission objective was achieved.

Kind regards,

Jacek Zemlo
[just an armchair flyer, I hope not as stupid as could be;-)]

[MICHAEL OLEARY]

My understanding was that they missed due to lack of rocket motors firing.
-Moe
"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
...
> On 1/25/05 7:57 PM, in article
> ,
> "NimBill" > wrote:
>
>>> From: "awg9tech"
>>
>>> Has the Phoenix ever been fired in battle?
>>
>> I really do not know. The AIM-7 and AIM-9 certainly were.
>>
>
> Got lobbed downrange post Desert Fox, I believe (circa 1999). Shot at a
> couple of Iraqi fighters that had strayed across the 32nd. Assessed as a
> miss.
>
> --Woody
>

[[email protected]]

In the "Shadows of Steel" by Dale Brown there was a fictional story of
USS Abraham Lincoln taking control over Southern Persian Gulf (with an
Iranian carrier "Chomeini" in the North) by sending to the air 3 CAPs
with 2 Tomcats each, F-14s armed with a mix of 2 AIM-9, 2 AIM-7 and 4
AIM-54 (2 normal + 2 extra), and as many as 3 E-2C Hawkeyes (one of
them shot down by ARMs fired from Tu-22M Backfire).

I've read somewhere 3 CAPs 2 F-14s each was a normal procedure in
combat until 1990s(?). The limited number of Tomcats could easily be
augmented by Hornets, but sending 3 of 4 (or 5 ) Hawkeyes to the air at
the same time sounds like totally no Hawkeyes in the air a few hours
later.

Yes, I know this subject was discussed here long ago...

According to the book at least one cruise missile escaped from AIM-54
range (because it was "faster than Phoenix" - uhh, that's funny;-), and
had to be shot down by a Ticonderoga-class cruiser.

Frankly, I am dissapointed with this book - the author describes Mi-8
in a way that proves that should be Ka-25 or Ka-27.
Kind regards,

Jacek Zemlo

[Glenn Dowdy]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Frankly, I am dissapointed with this book - the author describes Mi-8

You really didn't need to include "book - the" in your sentence.

Glenn D.