Best instrument combination

[ryanglover1969[_2_]]

Looking for some consensus of opinion on what is the best combination
of flight computer, logger and PDA. / soaring software.

Recently sold my glider with LX 1600, Colibri and 3800 series Ipaq
running SeeYou Mobile. I liked the set up ok, but there were some
minor glitches, as I'm sure there are with any set up. What do you
think is the best? And cost is a factor.

[jcarlyle]

I predict the consensus will be "whatever I have in my ship". Having
said that, I have a SN-10B, a Volkslogger, and an iPAQ 3950 running
Glide Navigator II. The Volkslogger because its utterly reliable and
interfaces with the SN-10B (although the VL does have some quirks).
GNII because it's really simple to use and tells me only what I need
to know about where I am, what my options are and what's coming up.
The SN-10B because it's dead nuts accurate with wind and final glide
(although it does have a rather steep learning curve).

-John

On Sep 12, 1:30 pm, ryanglover1969 > wrote:
> Looking for some consensus of opinion on what is the best combination
> of flight computer, logger and PDA. / soaring software.
>
> Recently sold my glider with LX 1600, Colibri and 3800 series Ipaq
> running SeeYou Mobile. I liked the set up ok, but there were some
> minor glitches, as I'm sure there are with any set up. What do you
> think is the best? And cost is a factor.

[ryanglover1969[_2_]]

On Sep 12, 11:46*am, jcarlyle > wrote:
> I predict the consensus will be "whatever I have in my ship". Having
> said that, I have a SN-10B, a Volkslogger, and an iPAQ 3950 running
> Glide Navigator II. The Volkslogger because its utterly reliable and
> interfaces with the SN-10B (although the VL does have some quirks).
> GNII because it's really simple to use and tells me only what I need
> to know about where I am, what my options are and what's coming up.
> The SN-10B because it's dead nuts accurate with wind and final glide
> (although it does have a rather steep learning curve).
>
> -John
>
> On Sep 12, 1:30 pm, ryanglover1969 > wrote:
>
> > Looking for some consensus of opinion on what is the best combination
> > of flight computer, logger and PDA. / soaring software.
>
> > Recently sold my glider with LX 1600, Colibri and 3800 series Ipaq
> > running SeeYou Mobile. I liked the set up ok, but there were some
> > minor glitches, as I'm sure there are with any set up. What do you
> > think is the best? And cost is a factor.

Thanks John! That's exactly the kind of information I'm looking for.
Anybody else want to weigh in?

[Morgan[_2_]]

I run two different setups in the two gliders I own. My ASW-20 has an
old Zander SR 820. No GPS, but decent speed-to-fly and netto vario
calculations. For navigation I have a PNA with XCSoar. Slightly more
workload since I've got two instruments to set Macready on if I'm
trying to keep them in sync. I generally don't worry too much about
that though. Leave the PNA at MC2.0 or so depending on the day and it
gives me enough info about what is reachable that I can always fly
faster/slower on a final glide and watch my arrival height. Word of
caution on the PNA though, the GPS altitude is not terribly accurate,
though it seems fairly linear in how much it is off. So while it may
be off by 1000ft at 17500, down low it is usually off by less. It's
just something to be aware of since if you've got a marginal final
glide it might be overly optimistic with your actual height.

In our Duo, we've got a Cambridge L-nav and GPS-nav model 20. In
general the wind calculations from circling are pretty comparable with
the XCSoar. While I think it is supposed to calculate wind while on
glide, I don't trust it much. I think the SN10 does a better job.
Final glide and speed-to-fly are good with clear push-pull visual and
audio indications. Final glide is total-energy compensated so if
you're on a fast final glide, the height of finish includes a pull-up
at the end. Just something to keep in mind, but this can also be
useful when dolphin flying as it will tell you if you're really being
more efficient by pulling up in lift since a poorly timed pull-up will
usually result in more height, but less energy as far as the flight
computer is concerned.

I still fly with XCSoar in the Duo as a backup and moving map for
reachable airfields as the interface is so much more intuitive at a
glance. Another nice aspect of XCSoar (probably other PDA/PNA tools
as well) are the thermal statistics available. On my thermalling
screen I keep the "thermal climb" and "thermal climb all" fields
available. At a glance you can see what your achieved climb in the
current thermal including centering. Nice for having a less
subjective view on your thermal rather than a 30 sec average or your
mental average.

I only have about 3 flights in a Duo with an SN-10, but I liked it.
Not your cheapest option for sure.


On Sep 12, 11:49*am, ryanglover1969 > wrote:
> On Sep 12, 11:46*am, jcarlyle > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I predict the consensus will be "whatever I have in my ship". Having
> > said that, I have a SN-10B, a Volkslogger, and an iPAQ 3950 running
> > Glide Navigator II. The Volkslogger because its utterly reliable and
> > interfaces with the SN-10B (although the VL does have some quirks).
> > GNII because it's really simple to use and tells me only what I need
> > to know about where I am, what my options are and what's coming up.
> > The SN-10B because it's dead nuts accurate with wind and final glide
> > (although it does have a rather steep learning curve).
>
> > -John
>
> > On Sep 12, 1:30 pm, ryanglover1969 > wrote:
>
> > > Looking for some consensus of opinion on what is the best combination
> > > of flight computer, logger and PDA. / soaring software.
>
> > > Recently sold my glider with LX 1600, Colibri and 3800 series Ipaq
> > > running SeeYou Mobile. I liked the set up ok, but there were some
> > > minor glitches, as I'm sure there are with any set up. What do you
> > > think is the best? And cost is a factor.
>
> Thanks John! That's exactly the kind of information I'm looking for.
> Anybody else want to weigh in?

[ContestID67[_2_]]

I love the Cambridge 302. Good flight computer, audio variometer*,
speed to fly, averager, recorder, GPS, airbrake warning, and supplies
5VDC to my PDA. All in 2-1/2".

I believe that most would believe that a moving map is a MUST have. I
would love to have the new Clearnav but cost and panel real estate
holds me back. Anyway, I have a standard PDA with Glide Nav II which
seems fine for what I do. But take that with a large grain of salt as
I haven't flown much with anything else.

So, two pieces of equipment and I think that you are set to go.

* What I find really interesting about the 302's audio variometer are
the tones that it emits. Obviously, it has the standard lift/sink
stuff. But beyond that if you are in sink and flying the correct
speed the sink tone will go away to say that you are doing the right
thing. If you are in lift and nearing stall speed, the tone modulates
in a more "urgent" way. Cool.

My $0.02.

- John

[Andreas Maurer]

On Sun, 12 Sep 2010 11:49:49 -0700 (PDT), ryanglover1969
> wrote:


>Thanks John! That's exactly the kind of information I'm looking for.
>Anybody else want to weigh in?

I'm with John - SN-10, Ipaq 3970 running SeeYou, and a Volkslogger.


Andreas

[[email protected]]

On Sep 12, 1:30*pm, ryanglover1969 > wrote:
> Looking for some consensus of opinion on what is the best combination
> of flight computer, logger and PDA. / soaring software.
>
> Recently sold my glider with LX 1600, Colibri and 3800 series Ipaq
> running SeeYou Mobile. I liked the set up ok, but there were some
> minor glitches, as I'm sure there are with any set up. What do you
> think is the best? And cost is a factor.

ASW-27: LNav, CAI Model 20 connected to 1520 running Glide NavII. Easy
to use, excellent audio and TE.
Takes about 10 minutes to know enouigh to use effectively.
ASW-28: 302 connected to 1520/GlideNavll. Touchier TE tuning. Speed to
fly communication not as good as LNav.
ASK-21: LNav with ClearNav. Don't laugh! This is the glider that
really needs the glide amoeba. Most time to learn and not as quich to
use as Glide Nav, but display and information presentation is
excellent.
Eventually the 27 and 28 will get ClearNav.
FWIW
UH/OH/K21

[John Cochrane[_2_]]

On Sep 12, 12:30*pm, ryanglover1969 > wrote:
> Looking for some consensus of opinion on what is the best combination
> of flight computer, logger and PDA. / soaring software.
>
> Recently sold my glider with LX 1600, Colibri and 3800 series Ipaq
> running SeeYou Mobile. I liked the set up ok, but there were some
> minor glitches, as I'm sure there are with any set up. What do you
> think is the best? And cost is a factor.


1) My current favorite: Clearnav, NK vario (hopefully coming soon!),
flarm as backup logger.

The clearnav works great, and presents the information you need,
quickly, with a minimum of fussing and fiddling.

Until the NK vario / flarm are available a 302 is a great vario and
backup GPS.

2) SN10. I used to have one. Great instrument, very accurate, very
solid and dependable. The downside is a smaller display, usually
needing an extra moving map, the need to page through lots of
numerical information. For pilots who don't really drool over the huge
map on the clearnav the downside is an upside.

3) LX. I don't have one, but buddies who do swear by them.

Avoid:

-PDAs! For the few thousand you spend on good instruments like the
above, say goodbye to batteries that die from age, batteries that die
if you leave it unplugged for 20 minutes, batteries that die over the
winter even though you left it plugged in all the time, rushing to
walmart to find backup batteries, batteries that swell up and blow
out the back of the pda and won't go back in; rebooting in flight,
hard rebooting in flight (Lost the stylus again! Now what can I find
in the cockpit to stick in the reboot hole?) , hard rebooting in
flight 5 minutes before the start gate opens, hard rebooting in flight
while driving down the ridge 10 miles from the next MAT turnpoint,
reentering the entire task in flight after the above, SD cards that
die, squinting to see what it actually says, making cheesy shades to
keep the sun at Uvalde from overheating the darn thing, and so on.
(All of the above are true stories). PDA lifespan is also less than
real instruments, so you'll buy 2 or 3 before you're done.

-Legacy instruments. The new ones are better.

Pay attention to:

-Support, especially for US pilots. I know first hand that NK and SN10
are both excellent at this. If there's a rule change or a bug, they
fix it fast.

Cost? Don't be cheap on vario/av! This is by far the most important
piece of your glider for doing well in competition and cross country.
Buy a glider that costs $4000 less, or forego the new winglets or
wingrigger or some other glider doodad somesuch, but don't be cheap
about vario and nav if you want to do well and avoid endless
frustration.

Be sure to cost out an entire system including GPS, speed to fly
vario, display, moving map, extra wires, brackets, connection gear,
backup GPS, backup vario if you want one. The integrated computers
seem expensive, but once you add up the parts it's a better deal than
it seems.

John Cochrane

[ryanglover1969[_2_]]

On Sep 12, 2:55*pm, John Cochrane >
wrote:
> On Sep 12, 12:30*pm, ryanglover1969 > wrote:
>
> > Looking for some consensus of opinion on what is the best combination
> > of flight computer, logger and PDA. / soaring software.
>
> > Recently sold my glider with LX 1600, Colibri and 3800 series Ipaq
> > running SeeYou Mobile. I liked the set up ok, but there were some
> > minor glitches, as I'm sure there are with any set up. What do you
> > think is the best? And cost is a factor.
>
> 1) My current favorite: Clearnav, NK vario (hopefully coming soon!),
> flarm as backup logger.
>
> The clearnav works great, and presents the information you need,
> quickly, with a minimum of fussing and fiddling.
>
> Until the NK vario / flarm are available a 302 is a great vario and
> backup GPS.
>
> 2) SN10. I used to have one. Great instrument, very accurate, very
> solid and dependable. The downside is a smaller display, usually
> needing an extra moving map, the need to page through lots of
> numerical information. For pilots who don't really drool over the huge
> map on the clearnav the downside is an upside.
>
> 3) LX. I don't have one, but buddies who do swear by them.
>
> Avoid:
>
> -PDAs! *For the few thousand you spend on good instruments like the
> above, say goodbye to batteries that die from age, batteries that die
> if you leave it unplugged for 20 minutes, batteries that die over the
> winter even though you left it plugged in all the time, rushing to
> walmart to find backup batteries, *batteries that swell up and blow
> out the back of the pda and won't go back in; rebooting in flight,
> hard rebooting in flight (Lost the stylus again! Now what can I find
> in the cockpit to stick in the reboot hole?) , hard rebooting in
> flight 5 minutes before the start gate opens, hard rebooting in flight
> while driving down the ridge 10 miles from the next MAT turnpoint,
> reentering the entire task in flight after the above, SD cards that
> die, squinting to see what it actually says, making cheesy shades to
> keep the sun at Uvalde from overheating the darn thing, and so on.
> (All of the above are true stories). *PDA lifespan is also less than
> real instruments, so you'll buy 2 or 3 before you're done.
>
> -Legacy instruments. The new ones are better.
>
> Pay attention to:
>
> -Support, especially for US pilots. I know first hand that NK and SN10
> are both excellent at this. If there's a rule change or a bug, they
> fix it fast.
>
> Cost? *Don't be cheap on vario/av! This is by far the most important
> piece of your glider for doing well in competition and cross country.
> Buy a glider that costs $4000 less, or forego the new winglets or
> wingrigger or some other glider doodad somesuch, but don't be cheap
> about vario and nav if you want to do well and avoid endless
> frustration.
>
> Be sure to cost out an entire system including GPS, speed to fly
> vario, display, moving map, extra wires, brackets, connection gear,
> backup GPS, backup vario if you want one. The integrated computers
> seem expensive, but once you add up the parts it's a better deal than
> it seems.
>
> John Cochrane

I loved my LX 1600 and the colibri was alright, but man I could not
stand the PDA. You're right about the rebooting in flight and all the
other issues. I keep telling myself it was just the model PDA I had,
3600 then 3800. I wonder if the Oudie in more reliable?

[SoaringXCellence]

I've been using the HP310, hooked up to the ship battery. No problems
with visibility, swollen batteries, or reseting in flight.

I run the LK8000 software and so far have not found a reason to
change. I'll admit to still learning a lot about the software. It
does require a thoughtful plod through the setup pages but offers
flexibility to the extreme. I have tried the SYM and FlyWithCE on the
PNA, but I like the UI for the LK8000 much better. I like the way
that touch gestures, with audio feedback, let you move through various
information pages without looking at the unit. I've not flown it in a
competitive yet but hope to next year.

I also have a Colibri with serial NMEA output that is NOT talking to
the HP310. I use it for the secure logger and the smoother trace for
review with SeeYou. The HP310 alone has too many dropped points to be
useful for teaching, which I often do on XC flights.

I'm looking forward to trying the LK8000 software on something like
the Oudie, with the Colibri as the NMEA source. One of my clients
recently flew in the Grob 103 with the Oudie and it was both visible
and seemed to be easy to use (except I can't seem to get the hang of
SYM).

Mike

[Gary Boggs]

I have a realy well compensated vario, airspeed, altimeter, and a
Colibri. The Colibri gives me the distances to where I headed. Then
I lookout the window at the clouds a lot, and figure in my head what L/
D I think I will get by what I see out the window. Looking out the
window can be very effective. I often see other gliders and power
planes! And hawks and eagles. I even saw some naked women sunbathing
on the top of our ridge.

Boggs

[Westbender]

On Sep 12, 12:30*pm, ryanglover1969 > wrote:
> Looking for some consensus of opinion on what is the best combination
> of flight computer, logger and PDA. / soaring software.
>
> Recently sold my glider with LX 1600, Colibri and 3800 series Ipaq
> running SeeYou Mobile. I liked the set up ok, but there were some
> minor glitches, as I'm sure there are with any set up. What do you
> think is the best? And cost is a factor.

302/303. Don't care much for PDA's. I'm not a contest flyer, so the
CAI system is more than enough for me. Simple, easy to use, easy to
read in sunlight, and doesn't require much "heads down" time in the
cockpit.

[mattm[_2_]]

On Sep 12, 1:30*pm, ryanglover1969 > wrote:
> Looking for some consensus of opinion on what is the best combination
> of flight computer, logger and PDA. / soaring software.
>
> Recently sold my glider with LX 1600, Colibri and 3800 series Ipaq
> running SeeYou Mobile. I liked the set up ok, but there were some
> minor glitches, as I'm sure there are with any set up. What do you
> think is the best? And cost is a factor.

OK, here's my experience:

Have flown a number of gliders lately, and two of those in contests.
Varios used: Winter and Sage mechanical, Borgelt B40, Westerboer
VW900,
LX160, LX5000, old Cambridge (not sure about model).
Flight computers: LX5000 and SoarPilot on several Palm units.
Loggers: LX5000, Volkslogger, and handheld Garmin eTrex.

My current plane has a Sage, LX160, and VW900. As far as I'm
concerned
the VW is the best of the bunch. The Sage is beautiful but twitchy to
get
working properly. The LX160 is an amazing vario but it mostly drives
me up
the wall with technical problems. The B40 is great, especially since
it has
a battery backup. The shortcoming of all except the LXes is the lack
of
averager (although there are upgraded versions of some of those that
do).

The LX5000 also had an amazing bunch of stuff in it but it was
practically
impossible to use them. The interface frustrated everyone who tried
to use it.
It's currently on a round trip to Slovenia since it refuses to talk to
anyone anymore
(and someone's badge flight is trapped inside it). When it works it
does great
as an IGC logger and enhanced GPS data source for SoarPilot.

For logging the VL has worked OK for me. The LX5000 was better once
SoarPilot got fixed to cope with it. The VL has some annoying habits,
including a small memory and a poor user interface. It also starts
beeping
once you are down to 7.5 hours of memory left in it. If you're
recording
at 4 second intervals that happens about 2 hours into a flight. :-(

For me the best out of everything has been SoarPilot on the older Palm
units with reflective screens. They are very inexpensive on eBay and
get
more visible in sunlight. SoarPilot has great info readily available,
and
I really love the tabular final glide screen it uses.

My ideal cockpit (still in the future since my glider partner fell
through):
Sage with averager, VW1010 plus VW1150 data unit, PowerFLARM
as a logger, SoarPilot (eventually ClearNav).

-- Matt

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Mon, 13 Sep 2010 12:35:44 -0700, Brad wrote:

> This is probably the simplest setup described yet. I don't fly contests
> but am an avid XC pilot with a lot of western WA km racked up.
>
Here's a somewhat more elaborate one, which works well for me. Its
similar to Brads, except that my backup vario is a B.40 rather than a Sage
and in addition I carry a T&B and a radio.

Mechanical instruments:
ASI (80mm)
Altimeter (80mm)
Turn & Bank (57mm) (in case I get caught above cloud in wave)
Compass (57mm)

Electronic: - all run off two 12v batteries
A runs T&B and radio, B runs the rest.
SDI C4 (80mm) main vario and STF. No GPS connection.
Borgelt B.40 (57mm) backup vario (with 9v backup battery)
Filser ATR-500 (57mm) radio
Binatone PNA on RAM fleximount in front of panel. Runs LK8000.

My glider is an early Standard Libelle, which limits panel space severely
because everything has to be inside the edges of the panel: This slides
in under the cockpit rim. This panel tells me everything I need to know
during normal flying and is adequate for cloud flying.

In addition I carry an EW model D logger, which has a dedicated Garmin
GPS II+ connected to it. Both are mounted on the battery box lid and not
visible during flight and are powered from both batteries. The EW is my
main logger. LK8000 also records an IGC log.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 9/13/2010 1:29 PM, mattm wrote:
> On Sep 12, 1:30 pm, > wrote:
>> Looking for some consensus of opinion on what is the best combination
>> of flight computer, logger and PDA. / soaring software.
>>
>> Recently sold my glider with LX 1600, Colibri and 3800 series Ipaq
>> running SeeYou Mobile. I liked the set up ok, but there were some
>> minor glitches, as I'm sure there are with any set up. What do you
>> think is the best? And cost is a factor.
>
> OK, here's my experience:
>
> Have flown a number of gliders lately, and two of those in contests.
> Varios used: Winter and Sage mechanical,
<Snip...>
>
> My current plane has a Sage, <snip...> The Sage is beautiful but twitchy to
> get working properly.
<Snip...>

> My ideal cockpit (still in the future since my glider partner fell
> through):
> Sage with averager, <snip...>.
>
> -- Matt

The comment, "The Sage is beautiful but twitchy to get working properly,"
likely reflects the Sage's rapid (compared to a host of other actual
analog-needle-containing variometers) response time...which rapid response
time is (to me) a good thing.

For the record, there are 3 Sage vario types, with 3 different response times
ranging from 0.7 sec to (as I recall) 1.7 sec, response time being defined as
being from initiation time of a sustained, unvarying, input signal to 67% of
max signal-matching needle displacement.

Anyone who can get a (hidden assumption: known-properly-functioning) Sage
operating to their satisfaction without resorting to slowing it down by some
indeterminate amount via restrictors/'gust filters' can be satisfied they have
a really good static system on their glider...a worthy goal for any glider,
regardless of vario type!

I have no financial interest in Sages, but just thought this an opportunity to
touch upon a bit of universally applicable (i.e. static system
importance/sensitivity) info that historically seems to fade a tad as the
glider-guider population trends away from geeky mechanical developer types to
geeky user types.

Geekily,
Bob W.