Question About Mid-Air Collisions

[jason219]

Hello everyone. I'm preparing a mock press conference for one of my college classes. In my particular scenario, I am the public relations head of a top international airliner.

Three hours into the flight, one of our planes was involved in a mid-air collision (whether it was with another aircraft or another object, I am not sure). The plane is still airborne but is only able to fly higher and to the right. All attempts to make a left turn or decrease altitude have failed.

I need some expert knowledge on what would happen in this situation. Judging by the damage, is it possible to land the plane safely? Is an emergency landing feasible? If so, what would the steps necessary be to execute it and how long (roughly) would that take?

Thank you for your help!

[Mark]

On Sep 15, 2:46*pm, jason219 >
wrote:
> Hello everyone. *I'm preparing a mock press conference for one of my
> college classes. In my particular scenario, I am the public relations
> head of a top international airliner.
>
> Three hours into the flight, one of our planes was involved in a mid-air
> collision (whether it was with another aircraft or another object, I am
> not sure). The plane is still airborne but is only able to fly higher
> and to the right. All attempts to make a left turn or decrease altitude
> have failed.
>
> I need some expert knowledge on what would happen in this situation.
> Judging by the damage, is it possible to land the plane safely? *Is an
> emergency landing feasible? If so, what would the steps necessary be to
> execute it and how long (roughly) would that take?
>
> Thank you for your help!
>
> --
> jason219

Although the airfoil surfaces are stuck in a
position to induce lift, the plane would be induced to decrease
elevation by throttle reduction or fuel mixture. If you can only
turn left you won't make it.

---
Mark

[[email protected]]

jason219 > wrote:
>
> Hello everyone. I'm preparing a mock press conference for one of my
> college classes. In my particular scenario, I am the public relations
> head of a top international airliner.
>
> Three hours into the flight, one of our planes was involved in a mid-air
> collision (whether it was with another aircraft or another object, I am
> not sure). The plane is still airborne but is only able to fly higher
> and to the right. All attempts to make a left turn or decrease altitude
> have failed.

This can not happen.

If you reduce or eliminate engine power, the airplane will come down.

Also, eventually an airplane will stop climbing.

> I need some expert knowledge on what would happen in this situation.
> Judging by the damage, is it possible to land the plane safely? Is an
> emergency landing feasible? If so, what would the steps necessary be to
> execute it and how long (roughly) would that take?
>
> Thank you for your help!

The situation just isn't realistic.

While it is remotely possible that the controls could get damaged to the
extent that the airplane can only be turned in one direction, there is
still the use of unbalanced thrust from the engines to control direction,
and this has actually been done in airliners and military aircraft.

If nothing can control the aircraft heading, about all you can do is reduce
power, spiral down, and hope where the airplane touches the ground is
open and flat.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[[email protected]]

Mark > wrote:
> On Sep 15, 2:46Â*pm, jason219 >
> wrote:
>> Hello everyone. Â*I'm preparing a mock press conference for one of my
>> college classes. In my particular scenario, I am the public relations
>> head of a top international airliner.
>>
>> Three hours into the flight, one of our planes was involved in a mid-air
>> collision (whether it was with another aircraft or another object, I am
>> not sure). The plane is still airborne but is only able to fly higher
>> and to the right. All attempts to make a left turn or decrease altitude
>> have failed.
>>
>> I need some expert knowledge on what would happen in this situation.
>> Judging by the damage, is it possible to land the plane safely? Â*Is an
>> emergency landing feasible? If so, what would the steps necessary be to
>> execute it and how long (roughly) would that take?
>>
>> Thank you for your help!
>>
>> --
>> jason219
>
> Although the airfoil surfaces are stuck in a
> position to induce lift, the plane would be induced to decrease
> elevation by throttle reduction or fuel mixture. If you can only
> turn left you won't make it.

Airliners don't have mixture controls.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[[email protected]]

Edward A. Falk > wrote:
> In article >,
> > wrote:
>>jason219 > wrote:
>>>
>>> [hypothetical scenario:]
>>>
>>> The plane is still airborne but is only able to fly higher
>>> and to the right. All attempts to make a left turn or decrease altitude
>>> have failed.
>
> Look to the Sioux City crash of 1989. Circumstances were very similar.
> Pilot could only control altitude and direction by playing with the
> throttles. It was a miracle he could bring it to the runway at all,
> and nobody's ever been able to repeat it in a simulator.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232
>
>
>>This can not happen.
>>
>>If you reduce or eliminate engine power, the airplane will come down.
>
> Never say never. Although I agree that it's extremely unlikely, I
> can imagine an aft-of-cg situation where reducing power would cause
> an unrecoverable stall. With a combination of aft-of-cg situation
> and loss of elevator control, I could imagine that the only stable
> configuration would be a climb.

Yeah, but no matter what there has never been an airplane that got stuck
in the air, they all have to come down sometime.

>>> I need some expert knowledge on what would happen in this situation.
>>> Judging by the damage, is it possible to land the plane safely? Is an
>>> emergency landing feasible? If so, what would the steps necessary be to
>>> execute it and how long (roughly) would that take?
>
> If the plane can only climb, then that's all she wrote.

As in the elevator is stuck up, and stuck up enough, yep.

> If it can only turn to the right, your best bet would probably be ditching
> in the ocean or a large lake, but I wouldn't give good odds on surviving
> either of those scenarios without full control of the plane.
>
> If the lane can turn right *or* go straight, then you might have a chance.
>
> Anyway, read up on the Sioux City crash, I think your scenario is based
> on it, and you can see what actual experts did.
>
>>If nothing can control the aircraft heading, about all you can do is reduce
>>power, spiral down, and hope where the airplane touches the ground is
>>open and flat.
>
> Agreed.
>

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Mxsmanic]

jason219 writes:

> Three hours into the flight, one of our planes was involved in a mid-air
> collision (whether it was with another aircraft or another object, I am
> not sure). The plane is still airborne but is only able to fly higher
> and to the right. All attempts to make a left turn or decrease altitude
> have failed.
>
> I need some expert knowledge on what would happen in this situation.
> Judging by the damage, is it possible to land the plane safely? Is an
> emergency landing feasible? If so, what would the steps necessary be to
> execute it and how long (roughly) would that take?

First, it's never impossible to decrease altitude. All you have to do is
reduce power, and you descend. If for some reason you cannot adjust the
control surfaces at all, and cannot control the engines at all, you'll still
descend once you run out of fuel. So that part isn't very realistic.

As for being able to turn right but not left, that would require an extremely
unusual set of circumstances, since the same control surfaces are used for
turns in both directions. And since a turn begins by rolling the aircraft, an
inability to roll it in the opposite direction would make it impossible to end
the turn in most cases, and ultimately bad things would happen.

But let's assume that both types of damage are possible. In that case, the
airplane can never land, since it cannot descend. Let's suppose that it finds
a way to descend, then. If it still only only turn right, it might be able to
find its way down to an airport. It could work its way down with just right
turns, but the final approach would be extremely difficult, since only
corrections to the right would be possible, and any circumstance that might
require turning left (such as maintaining alignment with the runway) would
require starting over with the approach. This does not bode well for a safe
landing, unless the aircraft has expert pilots and unlimited fuel aboard.

It might be better to select a different type of damage. The loss of all
controls except engines has already happened, for example. See United Airlines
Flight 232 (most of the people aboard survived) and JAL Flight 123 (all but
four of the 524 people aboard the aircraft died).

[Jim Logajan]

jason219 > wrote:
>
> Hello everyone.

Hello! Welcome to this happy place.

> I'm preparing a mock press conference for one of my
> college classes. In my particular scenario, I am the public relations
> head of a top international airliner.

Don't forget to name it "Trans American Airlines".

> Three hours into the flight, one of our planes was involved in a mid-air
> collision (whether it was with another aircraft or another object, I am
> not sure). The plane is still airborne but is only able to fly higher
> and to the right. All attempts to make a left turn or decrease altitude
> have failed.

When a mock reporter asks what is being done, answer with this:

"We're routing him into Lake Michigan, at least we'll avoid killing
innocent people!"

> I need some expert knowledge

You came to the right place!

> on what would happen in this situation.
> Judging by the damage, is it possible to land the plane safely?

No - they're all already dead and just don't know it.

> Is an emergency landing feasible?

No - as you said, all attempts to decrease altitude have failed. They're
stuck up there forever.

> If so, what would the steps necessary be to
> execute it and how long (roughly) would that take?

"Execute" is an insensitive word to use in such a grave scenario.

Death is normally permanent and of infinite duration, so it would take at
least a week.

> Thank you for your help!

You're welcome! Shirley you'll do well when your mock conference is graded.
Don't forget to serve some mock turtle soup afterword.

[Ari Silverstein]

On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 01:59:15 -0000, wrote:

> Mark > wrote:
>> On Sep 15, 2:46*pm, jason219 >
>> wrote:
>>> Hello everyone. *I'm preparing a mock press conference for one of my
>>> college classes. In my particular scenario, I am the public relations
>>> head of a top international airliner.
>>>
>>> Three hours into the flight, one of our planes was involved in a mid-air
>>> collision (whether it was with another aircraft or another object, I am
>>> not sure). The plane is still airborne but is only able to fly higher
>>> and to the right. All attempts to make a left turn or decrease altitude
>>> have failed.
>>>
>>> I need some expert knowledge on what would happen in this situation.
>>> Judging by the damage, is it possible to land the plane safely? *Is an
>>> emergency landing feasible? If so, what would the steps necessary be to
>>> execute it and how long (roughly) would that take?
>>>
>>> Thank you for your help!
>>>
>>> --
>>> jason219
>>
>> Although the airfoil surfaces are stuck in a
>> position to induce lift, the plane would be induced to decrease
>> elevation by throttle reduction or fuel mixture. If you can only
>> turn left you won't make it.
>
> Airliners don't have mixture controls.

*lol*
--
A fireside chat not with Ari!
http://tr.im/holj
Motto: Live To Spooge It!

[Jean O'Boyle[_3_]]

On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 18:21:21 -0700 (PDT), Mark wrote:

> Although the airfoil surfaces are stuck in a
> position to induce lift, the plane would be induced to decrease
> elevation by throttle reduction or fuel mixture. If you can only
> turn left you won't make it.
>
> ---
> Mark

Assclown post.

Beware.
--
http://tinyurl.com/5gt7

[D Ramapriya]

On Sep 16, 5:27*am, wrote:
> jason219 > wrote:
>
> This can not happen.
>
> If you reduce or eliminate engine power,


By the OP's "all attempts to decrease altitude have failed" statement,
I take it that moving the throttle has for some reason stopped ceased
to have an effect on N1.

The aircraft would fly right up to its ceiling altitude before it kind
of levels out until the A-1 exhausts. If the oxygen masks don't drop
for whatever reason, there'll at least be mercifully painless deaths
to the pax.

Ramapriya

[a[_3_]]

On Sep 15, 2:46*pm, jason219 >
wrote:
> Hello everyone. *I'm preparing a mock press conference for one of my
> college classes. In my particular scenario, I am the public relations
> head of a top international airliner.
>
> Three hours into the flight, one of our planes was involved in a mid-air
> collision (whether it was with another aircraft or another object, I am
> not sure). The plane is still airborne but is only able to fly higher
> and to the right. All attempts to make a left turn or decrease altitude
> have failed.
>
> I need some expert knowledge on what would happen in this situation.
> Judging by the damage, is it possible to land the plane safely? *Is an
> emergency landing feasible? If so, what would the steps necessary be to
> execute it and how long (roughly) would that take?
>
> Thank you for your help!
>
> --
> jason219

An aircraft failure causing a set of conditions that would induce a
climbing attitude and right turns only is probably more likely now
than it ever had been: other posters have been assuming a mechanical
failure and have overlooked the possibility of an electronic or
computer malfunction induced by the midair. Think of a fly by wire
computer failure, think of HAL in the movie 2001.

Then the question becomes, what happens when the airplane reaches its
maximum altitude: Airplanes way up there are touchy beasts, my guess
is at fuel exhaustion some perturbation to induce an out of
aerodynamic control airplane. It's going to come down, if there's
control authority it will mush down with a nose high attitude, more
likely it will be falling out of the sky.

You, the PR guy, will have an interesting task because although HAL
can control the airplane, it cannot control the use of the cell phones
aboard it. The passengers will be telling their families what is
happening to them, and for sure at least CNN will be broadcasting at
least one of the telephone conversations and the images being
transmitted over the phone network. I can hear some reporter now,
asking someone aboard the airplane "How do you feel?"

[Mark]

On Sep 15, 9:59*pm, wrote:
> Mark > wrote:
> > On Sep 15, 2:46*pm, jason219 >
> > wrote:
> >> Hello everyone. *I'm preparing a mock press conference for one of my
> >> college classes. In my particular scenario, I am the public relations
> >> head of a top international airliner.
>
> >> Three hours into the flight, one of our planes was involved in a mid-air
> >> collision (whether it was with another aircraft or another object, I am
> >> not sure). The plane is still airborne but is only able to fly higher
> >> and to the right. All attempts to make a left turn or decrease altitude
> >> have failed.
>
> >> I need some expert knowledge on what would happen in this situation.
> >> Judging by the damage, is it possible to land the plane safely? *Is an
> >> emergency landing feasible? If so, what would the steps necessary be to
> >> execute it and how long (roughly) would that take?
>
> >> Thank you for your help!
>
> >> --
> >> jason219
>
> > Although the airfoil surfaces are stuck in a
> > position to induce lift, the plane would be induced to decrease
> > elevation by throttle reduction or fuel mixture. *If you can only
> > turn left you won't make it.
>
> Airliners don't have mixture controls.
>
> --
> Jim Pennino

Thank you. I stand corrected.

You're still a pinhead.

---
Mark

[Mark]

On Sep 16, 12:49*am, Jim Logajan > wrote:

> No - as you said, all attempts to decrease altitude have failed. They're
> stuck up there forever.

Aerial refueling!

Zipline sandwiches.

No problem.

---
Mark

[Mark]

On Sep 16, 12:49*am, Jim Logajan > wrote:

> When a mock reporter asks what is being done, answer with this:
>
> "We're routing him into Lake Michigan, at least we'll avoid killing
> innocent people!"

All Lake Michigan boaters aren't guilty. Only most
of them.

---
Mark

[Terry]

"Jim Logajan" > wrote in message
.. .
> jason219 > wrote:
>>
>> Hello everyone.
>
> Hello! Welcome to this happy place.
>
>> I'm preparing a mock press conference for one of my
>> college classes. In my particular scenario, I am the public
>> relations
>> head of a top international airliner.

<snipped>

Well Done Jim.... :)

Terry N6401F

<

[Help! I Need SomeBooty!]

On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 03:27:48 -0700 (PDT), Mark wrote:

> On Sep 15, 9:59*pm, wrote:
>> Mark > wrote:
>>> On Sep 15, 2:46*pm, jason219 >
>>> wrote:
>>>> Hello everyone. *I'm preparing a mock press conference for one of my
>>>> college classes. In my particular scenario, I am the public relations
>>>> head of a top international airliner.
>>
>>>> Three hours into the flight, one of our planes was involved in a mid-air
>>>> collision (whether it was with another aircraft or another object, I am
>>>> not sure). The plane is still airborne but is only able to fly higher
>>>> and to the right. All attempts to make a left turn or decrease altitude
>>>> have failed.
>>
>>>> I need some expert knowledge on what would happen in this situation.
>>>> Judging by the damage, is it possible to land the plane safely? *Is an
>>>> emergency landing feasible? If so, what would the steps necessary be to
>>>> execute it and how long (roughly) would that take?
>>
>>>> Thank you for your help!
>>
>>>> --
>>>> jason219
>>
>>> Although the airfoil surfaces are stuck in a
>>> position to induce lift, the plane would be induced to decrease
>>> elevation by throttle reduction or fuel mixture. *If you can only
>>> turn left you won't make it.
>>
>> Airliners don't have mixture controls.
>>
>> --
>> Jim Pennino
>
> Thank you. I stand corrected.
>
> You're still a pinhead. I am still a gay bipolar ****nutzoid.
>
> ---
> Mark

The beginning of recovery is admission.

[Bug Dout]

> Look to the Sioux City crash of 1989. Circumstances were very similar.
> Pilot could only control altitude and direction by playing with the
> throttles. It was a miracle he could bring it to the runway at all,
> and nobody's ever been able to repeat it in a simulator.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232

While the poster did not say so directly, the implication of "nobody's
ever been able to repeat it in a simulator" is that the pilot of the
plane was a superman and nobody else is as good. I believe that it
simply means the simulator is not programmed to properly simulate such
an extreme event.

--
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not
fish they are after.
--Henry David Thoreau

[Mxsmanic]

Bug Dout writes:

> While the poster did not say so directly, the implication of "nobody's
> ever been able to repeat it in a simulator" is that the pilot of the
> plane was a superman and nobody else is as good. I believe that it
> simply means the simulator is not programmed to properly simulate such
> an extreme event.

In terms of behavior and maneuvering, the event was not particularly extreme,
so simulating it should not be a problem, although it wouldn't necessarily be
a perfect simulation.

It's likely that the real flight was simply very lucky in a number of ways. At
the same time, it wasn't as lucky as it could have been, since the landing
would have been much smoother had it not been for some last-minute phugoid
oscillation at just the wrong moment, aided slightly by the wind if I
remember.