Do you support establishing a US Club Class? Yes answers only! [Archive]

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Tim[_2_]

September 21st 10, 06:13 PM

Hello All:

If you have not figured it out, this is a topic I care passionnately
about...

Could we try and give the members of the US RC that post here/read
opinions here regularly an idea of the possible support for
establishing a stand alone US Club Class Nationals?

I recognize that the devil is alwawsy in the details, but please
answer yes to the following question, maybe a substantial turn-out
might impress upon the RC/USSTC.

While I appreciate the anti-Club Class Camp and their arguments,
supporters need to come up with some sort of data to support the
viability or confirm the impossibility of this Class here in the USA.

So, if you are not a supporter of this concept, or you do not
affirmatively know of a pilot who might be willing to fly such a
class, please do not post to this thread.

Question: Would you, or someone you know, would willingly fly or offer
your Club Class glider to someone who would fly at a stand-alone US
Club Class Nationals?

Thank You,

Tim S. McAllister
EY

2004,2006 US Team - Club Class
2005, 2007 FAI World GP

Tony[_5_]

September 21st 10, 06:30 PM

mattm[_2_]

September 21st 10, 07:00 PM

Wayne Paul

September 21st 10, 07:32 PM

"Tim" > wrote in message ...

.... Snip ...

>
> Question: Would you, or someone you know, would willingly fly or offer
> your Club Class glider to someone who would fly at a stand-alone US
> Club Class Nationals?
>

Tim,

I have yet to enter a contest. I feel reluctant to drag my HP-14 to a location where I am competing with ASW-29s, etc. However, Club Class completion sound very appealing to me.

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://tinyurl.com/N990-6F

John Cochrane[_2_]

September 21st 10, 08:14 PM

On Sep 21, 12:13*pm, Tim > wrote:
> Hello All:
>
> If you have not figured it out, this is a topic I care passionnately
> about...
>
> Could we try and give the members of the US RC that post here/read
> opinions here regularly an idea of the possible support for
> establishing a stand alone US Club Class Nationals?

I think you're mixing two issues: 1) having a contest labeled "club
class nationals" that only allows club gliders 2) getting the US team
committee to commit ahead of time to use the results of that contest,
and only that contest, to select world team members.

Issue #1 is pretty easy to solve. I can't speak for the entire RC, but
I would certainly support a request to run a "club class super
regionals" and probably even a "club class nationals." Heck, we allow
a "senior nationals" so why not. As with many big changes, it's worth
doing it by waiver for a few years to gauge success before permanently
changing rules. It would have to be inserted carefully in the contest
season --- the major objection to "club" is leaving the low
performance and older high performance gliders nowhere to fly, so it
should probably be on the other coast from the "sports nationals." But
it seems like a reasonable idea.

So, once again, if you want it, stop complaining and run it! Our major
problem is finding operators and CDs willing to run contests. We'll
look for your bid for next year. You might even be able to get one in
for the 2011 season if you hurry.

As for issue #2, well, try to understand the view of the very
reasonable people on the team committee. When they look at sports
class results under current rules, they see a very weak team; one that
US pilots are not likely in the end to support with our hard-earned
cash. (We've talked here about megabucks -- the real megabucks is what
it costs to go to the worlds, any worlds.) It would be pretty
irresponsible of them to change team selection rules to use results of
a class that has had a grand total of two contests, and has not
responded to the pilot and glider restrictions in sports class.

I know you feel that "build it and they will come," if only there were
a separate scoresheet and no asw27s buzzing around, we'd finally have
50 people at these nationals, not 10-14 that show up (and almost none
two years in a row) despite the 27s not being eligible for team
selection. But you have to understand that they really can't change
rules based on a theory. If you run some "sports class nationals" by
waiver, and lots of people show up, that is most likely to persuade
them.

You may say "people won't show up without team points." But they would
answer "people aren't showing up now, despite team points, so team
points must not be that important to the vast majority of pilots." And
the team rankings back them up, in every class. See here

http://soaringweb.org/US_Team/HomePage.html

It's blatantly obvious that even in 15, 18, standard and PW5 that no
more than 4 or 5 people care enough about team points to bother
showing up to the same contest two years in a row.

Anyway, that's my best guess at how the team committee thinks about
it, and addressing that point of view is the most likely route to
success.

Just to be clear, there is nothing I would like to see more than a
vibrant club class with 60 pilots duking it out every year, then going
on to do well at the worlds. Make it happen. I think the whole RC and
team committee feel that way. There is nobody, absolutely nobody,
"against" club class. There is a worry that going about it wrong could
hurt the very successful sports class, produce a small weak
"specialist" class, and lead to more small contests that are money-
losers for the organizers. Address those worries, and you'll get what
you want.

John Cochrane

jb92563

September 21st 10, 08:24 PM

What is the Club Class?

How is that different from Sport Class?

If it is a class where you can fly a lower performance glider with a
handicap against others
then I would be interested in flying.

Like Wayne I have not entered a contest yet since it seems futile to
do so with my
Schreder HP-11 against all the modern glass.

I think soaring contests in general would have wider appeal if they
were accessable to
more glider pilots.

Anything that makes that possible would be a good thing in my opinion.

Berry[_2_]

September 21st 10, 09:19 PM

In article
>,
Tim > wrote:

> Hello All:
>
> If you have not figured it out, this is a topic I care passionnately
> about...
>
> Could we try and give the members of the US RC that post here/read
> opinions here regularly an idea of the possible support for
> establishing a stand alone US Club Class Nationals?
>
> I recognize that the devil is alwawsy in the details, but please
> answer yes to the following question, maybe a substantial turn-out
> might impress upon the RC/USSTC.
>
> While I appreciate the anti-Club Class Camp and their arguments,
> supporters need to come up with some sort of data to support the
> viability or confirm the impossibility of this Class here in the USA.
>
> So, if you are not a supporter of this concept, or you do not
> affirmatively know of a pilot who might be willing to fly such a
> class, please do not post to this thread.
>
>
> Question: Would you, or someone you know, would willingly fly or offer
> your Club Class glider to someone who would fly at a stand-alone US
> Club Class Nationals?
>
> Thank You,
>
> Tim S. McAllister
> EY
>
> 2004,2006 US Team - Club Class
> 2005, 2007 FAI World GP

I am very much in favor of the U.S. club class and have flown both that
Region 5 has hosted.

lanebush

September 21st 10, 09:19 PM

On Sep 21, 3:24*pm, jb92563 > wrote:
> What is the Club Class?
>
> How is that different from Sport Class?
>
> If it is a class where you can fly a lower performance glider with a
> handicap against others
> then I would be interested in flying.
>
> Like Wayne I have not entered a contest yet since it seems futile to
> do so with my
> Schreder HP-11 against all the modern glass.
>
> I think soaring contests in general would have wider appeal if they
> were accessable to
> more glider pilots.
>
> Anything that makes that possible would be a good thing in my opinion.

Don't worry about the performance of your glider. The GTA races
(informal and not sanctioned) have the gamut of performance ships. I
just competed in Region V West and we had a Silent competing. The
handicap put him in the top few places every day even though his raw
scores were near the bottom. 13 meters and still competitive. I
would say that your first few contests will be a success if you make
it around the course and don't embarrass yourself on the grid and
landing. That has been my attitude this first year and I have had a
blast at Perry and Chilhowee. Stated simply, don't refrain from
competing because you are afraid you will not win! Enjoy the
performance you already own and learn the ropes of competition - we
need the participation and you will enjoy it.

Lane
XF

Berry[_2_]

September 21st 10, 09:29 PM

In article
>,
Tony > wrote:

>
> what would be the problem with running Sports Class and Club Class
> nationals concurrently, like appears to be done in Australia. One big
> happy handicapped contest. So then basically you'll have the same
> contest as you do now but Club Class gliders will get scored
> separately from the rest so the Club Class winner can go on the US
> Team. Then the people on the World Team actually have won a national
> contest. Plus, then who cares if only 5 pilots sign up for Club Class
> and the other 50 fly for Sports Class. The 5 will run for the world
> team and the 50 will fly for bragging rights and a trophy.
>
> I don't know much about the history and current situation of Club
> Class but it seems to me if you are going to qualify for the US Club
> Class Team you should fly a Club Class glider as defined by the FAI.
> Obviously Tim and Sean feel this way too.

Great idea! In fact, it's so good that it was done at Cordele this past
year. Sports and Club had similar tasks (a MAT and an assigned task can
be very similar if the CD is clever). I think everyone was happy with
the arrangement.

Martin Gregorie[_5_]

September 21st 10, 09:39 PM

On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:24:12 -0700, jb92563 wrote:

> What is the Club Class?
>
A handicapped list of gliders. The types included on the list and the
handicaps they use are defined by the FAI. Only gliders on the list are
eligible for the international Club class.

> How is that different from Sport Class?
>
My understanding is that the SSA, like the BGA, has its own handicapping
system which covers just about any glider that can be flown in a regional
or national competition. The BGA's list certainly includes everything
from the Falke and Slingsby T.21 to the ASW22bl and Nimbus 4. Like your
Sports class the range of types is too wide to allow fair and sensible
tasks to be set in weak conditions.

So, an observation from the right side of the pond: I hope it may help
this discussion.

My club runs a Regionals every year that usually attracts 50-60 entries.
All gliders are handicapped using the BGA handicaps. The gliders are
split into two classes on the handicap. Each class is tasked separately,
so the lower performance gliders can be given a shorter task, but both
tasks are launched at almost the same time. The classes alternate
position on the grid each day, typically with a short launching gap
between classes, so they can use separate start times to ease congestion
etc. The workload on the CD and organisation isn't much different from
running a single task for all gliders.

At first glance this split might work quite well for an American combined
Club and Sports class contest with the main difference that Club class
would only include gliders eligible for the FAI Club class.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

HL Falbaum[_2_]

September 21st 10, 09:45 PM

"Berry" > wrote in message
...
> In article
> >,
> Tim > wrote:

>
> I am very much in favor of the U.S. club class and have flown both that
> Region 5 has hosted.

Yes, and did very well, too.

As the Organizer of the two Club Class events, I have to put my thoughts in.
We should do away with the rule about prior US Team members being
ineligible. A World Champion is, after all, just that. So we need to send
our best pilots. We should not eliminate those of already proven ability.
But they need to know the nuances of flying the now medium performance
gliders, and the "tweaking" thereof. So they should have to win flying Club
Class gliders.

So--the Sports Class can be the "for fun" class. Club Class can be the
"serious" class.

I would favor that approach. A combined Sports/Club Nationals could be
viable.

Hartley Falbum
"KF" USA

mattm[_2_]

September 21st 10, 10:44 PM

On Sep 21, 4:45*pm, "HL Falbaum" > wrote:
> "Berry" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > In article
> > >,
> > Tim > wrote:
>
> > I am very much in favor of the U.S. club class and have flown both that
> > Region 5 has hosted.
>
> Yes, and did very well, too.
>
> As the Organizer of the two Club Class events, I have to put my thoughts in.
> We should do away with the rule about prior US Team members being
> ineligible. A World Champion is, after all, just that. So we need to send
> our best pilots. We should not eliminate those of already proven ability.
> But they need to know the nuances of flying the now medium performance
> gliders, and the "tweaking" thereof. So they should have to win flying Club
> Class gliders.
>
> So--the Sports Class can be the "for fun" class. Club Class can be the
> "serious" class.
>
> I would favor that approach. A combined Sports/Club Nationals could be
> viable.
>
> Hartley Falbum
> "KF" USA

My thoughts exactly. I've given my club mates long enough to answer
for themselves: we've got 6 club class flyers. We've all flown in
the
Cordele club class contest, except for 1 guy that hasn't flown any
contests yet (but will next year, probably).

Andrzej Kobus

September 22nd 10, 12:42 AM

On Sep 21, 3:14*pm, John Cochrane >
wrote:
> On Sep 21, 12:13*pm, Tim > wrote:
>
> > Hello All:
>
> > If you have not figured it out, this is a topic I care passionnately
> > about...
>
> > Could we try and give the members of the US RC that post here/read
> > opinions here regularly an idea of the possible support for
> > establishing a stand alone US Club Class Nationals?
>
> I think you're mixing two issues: 1) having a contest labeled "club
> class nationals" that only allows club gliders 2) getting the US team
> committee to commit ahead of time to use the results of that contest,
> and only that contest, to select world team members.
>
> Issue #1 is pretty easy to solve. I can't speak for the entire RC, but
> I would certainly support a request to run a "club class super
> regionals" and probably even a "club class nationals." Heck, we allow
> a "senior nationals" so why not. As with many big changes, it's worth
> doing it by waiver for a few years to gauge success before permanently
> changing rules. It would have to be inserted carefully in the contest
> season --- the major objection to "club" is leaving the low
> performance and older high performance gliders nowhere to fly, so it
> should probably be on the other coast from the "sports nationals." But
> it seems like a reasonable idea.
>
> So, once again, if you want it, stop complaining and run it! Our major
> problem is finding operators and CDs willing to run contests. We'll
> look for your bid for next year. You might even be able to get one in
> for the 2011 season if you hurry.
>
> As for issue #2, well, try to understand the view of the very
> reasonable people on the team committee. *When they look at sports
> class results under current rules, they see a very weak team; one that
> US pilots are not likely in the end to support with our hard-earned
> cash. (We've talked here about megabucks -- the real megabucks is what
> it costs to go to the worlds, any worlds.) It would be pretty
> irresponsible of them to change team selection rules to use results of
> a class that has had a grand total of two contests, and has not
> responded to the pilot and glider restrictions in sports class.
>
> I know you feel that "build it and they will come," if only there were
> a separate scoresheet and no asw27s buzzing around, we'd finally have
> 50 people at these nationals, not 10-14 that show up (and almost none
> two years in a row) despite the 27s not being eligible for team
> selection. But you have to understand that they really can't change
> rules based on a theory. If you run some "sports class nationals" by
> waiver, and lots of people show up, that is most likely to persuade
> them.
>
> You may say "people won't show up without team points." But they would
> answer "people aren't showing up now, despite team points, so team
> points must not be that important to the vast majority of pilots." And
> the team rankings back them up, in every class. See here
>
> http://soaringweb.org/US_Team/HomePage.html
>
> It's blatantly obvious that even in 15, 18, standard and PW5 that no
> more than 4 or 5 people care enough about team points to bother
> showing up to the same contest two years in a row.
>
> Anyway, that's my best guess at how the team committee thinks about
> it, and addressing that point of view is the most likely route to
> success.
>
> Just to be clear, there is nothing I would like to see more than a
> vibrant club class with 60 pilots duking it out every year, then going
> on to do well at the worlds. Make it happen. I think the whole RC and
> team committee feel that way. There is nobody, absolutely nobody,
> "against" club class. There is a worry that going about it wrong could
> hurt the very successful sports class, produce a small weak
> "specialist" class, and lead to more small contests that are money-
> losers for the organizers. Address those worries, and you'll get what
> you want.
>
> John Cochrane

John,

your post is full of positive comments and for that we are thankful,
however I think there might be an issue with what you are saying in
regards to ranking.

Let's take an example of the Sports Nationals in Elmira last year
where conditions were very weak. Sean Franke flew a Club Class glider.
He did very well beating some well known pilots. Sean was 3rd overall.
One can wonder if Sean had flown an ASG-29 (first place) or an ASW-27
(second place) what the results would have been like. Now if the first
two pilots flew Club Class gliders Sean's ranking might have been 100.
I know these pilots flying these modern gliders are exceptionally good
(one of the best), but no one will ever know what would have happened
if they flew Club Class gliders in these poor conditions. Maybe they
still would have won maybe not.

I think the point I am trying to make is that pilots dedicated to Club
Class might have difficult time getting good ranking through Sports
Class alone, especially in contests where weak conditions prevail.
Everyone knows contests are won or lost on weak days. While ASG-29 can
make another thermal LS-1F might end up in a field. Simply saying Club
Class pilots ranking is too low might not be representative of their
skills.

Sean was selected based on the Club Class rules. He did very well at
the WGC, I say much better than the pilots who were selected to the
Team prior to restricting team eligibility to pilots flying Club Class
gliders so obviously having a bigger pool of gliders in the past did
not translate to good results at the WGC. If I am wrong on this point
please correct me. It seems the current rules worked very well
selecting a top pilot to represent US in WGC.

Another point to consider is that maybe there is a different reason
for our Team not showing their best at WGC since the same problem
exists in other classes.

I hope the decision to change the rules of selection is going to be
reconsidered. I think it would be wise to give it some more time
especially since economic conditions of the last couple of years are
not conductive to large contest participation.

I no longer have any personal interest in this discussion since I no
longer fly a Club Class glider. The reason I speak up is because I
think proper recognition of this class is the only way to bring young
people to serious contest flying especially considering poor economy
we have. Let's look at the makeup of pilots in our contests. Who is
going to be flying in 10+ years?

Ray Jay

September 23rd 10, 02:55 PM

> The reason I speak up is because I
> think proper recognition of this class is the only way to bring young
> people to serious contest flying especially considering poor economy
> we have.

Hi Andrzej,

Good point, but I submit this is not necessarily an issue that should
be regarding in the context of how it affects only youth.

There are a lot of us old farts who can't afford to own and operate
more costly than a Club Class glider--especially in this economy at
this exchange rate!--who desire the opportunity to compete seriously
within a class (Club) whose philosophy and tasking does *not* consider
the lack of ability/capability of the lowest common denominator
(Sports).

This distinction between Club and Sports is what I suspect many others
just don't get.

Regards,

Ray

Scott Alexander[_2_]

September 24th 10, 03:44 AM

I suggest we have a club class nationals and sports class nationals
each year in different locations. Allow the club class nationals to be
in the west one year with the sports class nationals in the eastern
US. Then the following year, alternate so the club class nationals is
in the east and the sports class nationals is in the west.

I would love to compete in a club class contest and would be thrilled
to compete in a club class nationals.

Andy[_10_]

September 24th 10, 02:52 PM

On Sep 21, 12:14*pm, John Cochrane >
wrote:
>
> Just to be clear, there is nothing I would like to see more than a
> vibrant club class with 60 pilots duking it out every year, then going
> on to do well at the worlds. Make it happen. I think the whole RC and
> team committee feel that way. There is nobody, absolutely nobody,
> "against" club class. There is a worry that going about it wrong could
> hurt the very successful sports class, produce a small weak
> "specialist" class, and lead to more small contests that are money-
> losers for the organizers. Address those worries, and you'll get what
> you want.

It's very informative to look at the team selection lists John linked
to:

http://soaringweb.org/US_Team/HomePage.html

To be clear, here is what we are doing right now for Club Class world
team selection:

Five pilots "qualified" for the world team in Club Class in 2010 with
one scoring more than 80 points and the others scoring in the 50s and
below. Keep in mind that the points are based only on scores of
participating Club Class gliders, not all competitors, in the Sports
Class Nationals. Including all competitors would lower the scores
further.

Only one pilot flying a Club Class glider even completed two Sports
Class National contests in the past three years, finishing 19th out of
40 and 10th out of 30. The other two pilots each withdrew from one of
the two nationals they competed in. For the contests they completed
they finished 15th and 16th.

The conclusion is that right now qualifying for the world team in Club
Class is not highly competitive, despite the fact that lots of pilots
(many of them highly ranked) compete in Sports Class nationals in the
US. If you can make it to two contests in three years and average out
to the top half of the score sheet you're good for the top slot. For a
second slot you don't even have to do that and you don't have to beat
the other Club Class gliders at the contests where you compete because
the effect of merely attending a second national contest gets you on
the team.

The other classes are in varying states of health, but none as bad as
Club Class:

Open Class isn't in great shape in terms of numbers, but at least
there you have 5-7 pilots who show up at 2-3 contests every three
years and the top three seeded pilots each have won a nationals. There
are 5 pilots above 80 points and three above 90.

World Class has a smaller number of even more dedicated pilots who
duke it out almost every year. Four pilots above 80 points, one above
90, but almost no participation beyond that.

Standard Class has a problem with broad, consistent attendance. Three
pilots above 80 points, all three of them above 90.

18 Meter Class is reasonably healthy. It has 10 pilots scoring above
80 points and four above 90.

15 Meter Class is the healthiest and most competitive with 14 above 80
points and 8 above 90. Twenty-six pilots in 15 Meter have flown
multiple national or international contests in the past three years.

The goal should be to get a cadre of Club Class pilots who can compete
at the top third of the scoresheet to go to two out of three Sports
Class Nationals and try to get their team selection points above 85 or
90 - or host a Club Class nationals that draws more than 15 pilots,
most with real competition track records. Until that actually happens
for a few years, I agree with the team selection committee, the best
bet is either to draw from the broader pool of pilots flying in Sports
Class or not field a Club Class team at all.

BTW, the contention that Club Class gliders can't compete in a
handicapped contest with modern ships is not consistent with the
facts.Just look at the scoresheets. There are Club ships in the top 10
- including at least one win at the national level. One Parowan super
regional was won by a Twin Astir - beating a world team pilot in a
modern ship. The handicaps, if anything favor Club class ships on
average.

If you want a vibrant Club Class make it happen! I think everyone
would love to see it. It's not the rules that stand in the way, it's
apathy.

9B

mattm[_2_]

September 24th 10, 03:15 PM

On Sep 24, 9:52*am, Andy > wrote:
> On Sep 21, 12:14*pm, John Cochrane >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Just to be clear, there is nothing I would like to see more than a
> > vibrant club class with 60 pilots duking it out every year, then going
> > on to do well at the worlds. Make it happen. I think the whole RC and
> > team committee feel that way. There is nobody, absolutely nobody,
> > "against" club class. There is a worry that going about it wrong could
> > hurt the very successful sports class, produce a small weak
> > "specialist" class, and lead to more small contests that are money-
> > losers for the organizers. Address those worries, and you'll get what
> > you want.
>
> It's very informative to look at the team selection lists John linked
> to:
>
> http://soaringweb.org/US_Team/HomePage.html
>
> To be clear, here is what we are doing right now for Club Class world
> team selection:
>
> Five pilots "qualified" for the world team in Club Class in 2010 with
> one scoring more than 80 points and the others scoring in the 50s and
> below. Keep in mind that the points are based only on scores of
> participating Club Class gliders, not all competitors, in the Sports
> Class Nationals. Including all competitors would lower the scores
> further.
>
> Only one pilot flying a Club Class glider even completed two Sports
> Class National contests in the past three years, finishing 19th out of
> 40 and 10th out of 30. The other two pilots each withdrew from one of
> the two nationals they competed in. For the contests they completed
> they finished 15th and 16th.
>
> The conclusion is that right now qualifying for the world team in Club
> Class is not highly competitive, despite the fact that lots of pilots
> (many of them highly ranked) compete in Sports Class nationals in the
> US. If you can make it to two contests in three years and average out
> to the top half of the score sheet you're good for the top slot. For a
> second slot you don't even have to do that and you don't have to beat
> the other Club Class gliders at the contests where you compete because
> the effect of merely attending a second national contest gets you on
> the team.
>
> The other classes are in varying states of health, but none as bad as
> Club Class:
>
> Open Class isn't in great shape in terms of numbers, but at least
> there you have 5-7 pilots who show up at 2-3 contests every three
> years and the top three seeded pilots each have won a nationals. There
> are 5 pilots above 80 points and three above 90.
>
> World Class has a smaller number of even more dedicated pilots who
> duke it out almost every year. Four pilots above 80 points, one above
> 90, but almost no participation beyond that.
>
> Standard Class has a problem with broad, consistent attendance. Three
> pilots above 80 points, all three of them above 90.
>
> 18 Meter Class is reasonably healthy. It has 10 pilots scoring above
> 80 points and four above 90.
>
> 15 Meter Class is the healthiest and most competitive with 14 above 80
> points and 8 above 90. Twenty-six pilots in 15 Meter have flown
> multiple national or international contests in the past three years.
>
> The goal should be to get a cadre of Club Class pilots who can compete
> at the top third of the scoresheet to go to two out of three Sports
> Class Nationals and try to get their team selection points above 85 or
> 90 - or host a Club Class nationals that draws more than 15 pilots,
> most with real competition track records. Until that actually happens
> for a few years, I agree with the team selection committee, the best
> bet is either to draw from the broader pool of pilots flying in Sports
> Class or not field a Club Class team at all.
>
> BTW, the contention that Club Class gliders can't compete in a
> handicapped contest with modern ships is not consistent with the
> facts.Just look at the scoresheets. There are Club ships in the top 10
> - including at least one win at the national level. One Parowan super
> regional was won by a Twin Astir - beating a world team pilot in a
> modern ship. The handicaps, if anything favor Club class ships on
> average.
>
> If you want a vibrant Club Class make it happen! I think everyone
> would love to see it. It's not the rules that stand in the way, it's
> apathy.
>
> 9B

I think partly that these numbers reflect the difficulty of travelling
all the way across the country to compete in the second national.
Open class has mostly been held in the West or Southwest, so it's
reasonable to get there. Standard and Sports class, in particular,
have bounced back and forth from New York or Georgia to California.
World class has been more of an East(ish) contest, only being as
far west as Hobbs once in 6 years.

Anyway, that's a whole 'nuther barrel of worms we like to indulge
in too often. However, I think what we're going to get is just a list
of pilots that already qualified for the WGC in another class, and
who will wind up flying an unfamiliar plane. Sigh. The real hope
is to get a viable club class really going.

So, I wholeheartily agree that we need to get more club class
contests going, even at a national level. I don't have a venue
to offer (my airport is too busy, lacks an alternate runway,
is hemmed in by 3 class C airports, and lacks camping space),
but I am willing to help (even though I'd rather fly my club class
plane!).

-- Matt

David Leonard[_2_]

September 24th 10, 04:10 PM

At 13:52 24 September 2010, Andy wrote:

>It's very informative to look at the team selection lists John linked
>to:
>
>http://soaringweb.org/US_Team/HomePage.html
>
>To be clear, here is what we are doing right now for Club Class world
>team selection:
>
>Five pilots "qualified" for the world team in Club Class in 2010 with
>one scoring more than 80 points and the others scoring in the 50s and
>below. Keep in mind that the points are based only on scores of
>participating Club Class gliders, not all competitors, in the Sports
>Class Nationals. Including all competitors would lower the scores
>further.
>
You might note that the WGC 2010 results were not factored in yet. That
pulls 2 more pilots above 50, one of them above 90 (nice job Sean!).

>Only one pilot flying a Club Class glider even completed two Sports
>Class National contests in the past three years, finishing 19th out of
>40 and 10th out of 30. The other two pilots each withdrew from one of
>the two nationals they competed in. For the contests they completed
>they finished 15th and 16th.
>
You might also note that all 3 of them flew gliders not on the IGC list in
one or both of the qualifying contests. They are only on the expanded SSA
list.
>
>
snip
>
>
>If you want a vibrant Club Class make it happen! I think everyone
>would love to see it. It's not the rules that stand in the way, it's
>apathy.
>
It might be more the cost of competing in US Nationals than apathy. Its
hard enough for the "rich guys" in the other FAI classes, harder still
for a cost sensitive class. But the cost of a Nationals entry is a
pittance compared to the cost of flying in an overseas WGC, even with US
Team support. Then again, the experience is priceless...

I support establishing a US Club Class, even though I won't likely go
back to flying old gliders again to compete in it.

-Dave

Andy[_10_]

September 24th 10, 05:11 PM

On Sep 24, 8:10*am, David Leonard
> wrote:
> At 13:52 24 September 2010, Andy wrote:
>
> >It's very informative to look at the team selection lists John linked
> >to:
>
> >http://soaringweb.org/US_Team/HomePage.html
>
> >To be clear, here is what we are doing right now for Club Class world
> >team selection:
>
> >Five pilots "qualified" for the world team in Club Class in 2010 with
> >one scoring more than 80 points and the others scoring in the 50s and
> >below. Keep in mind that the points are based only on scores of
> >participating Club Class gliders, not all competitors, in the Sports
> >Class Nationals. Including all competitors would lower the scores
> >further.
>
> You might note that the WGC 2010 results were not factored in yet. That
> pulls 2 more pilots above 50, one of them above 90 (nice job Sean!).
>
> >Only one pilot flying a Club Class glider even completed two Sports
> >Class National contests in the past three years, finishing 19th out of
> >40 and 10th out of 30. The other two pilots each withdrew from one of
> >the two nationals they competed in. For the contests they completed
> >they finished 15th and 16th.
>
> You might also note that all 3 of them flew gliders not on the IGC list in
> one or both of the qualifying contests. They are only on the expanded SSA
> list.
>
> snip
>
> >If you want a vibrant Club Class make it happen! I think everyone
> >would love to see it. It's not the rules that stand in the way, it's
> >apathy.
>
> It might be more the cost of competing in US Nationals than apathy. Its
> hard enough for the "rich guys" in the other FAI classes, harder still
> for a cost sensitive class. But the cost of a Nationals entry is a
> pittance compared to the cost of flying in an overseas WGC, even with US
> Team support. *Then again, the experience is priceless...
>
> I support establishing a US Club Class, even though I won't likely go
> back to flying old gliders again to compete in it.
>
> -Dave

Good adds Dave. It seemed odd to see Sean down the list - nice job
indeed!

Your comments do take us back to finding ways to make competition less
onerous in terms of time and distance - mostly at the National level.
It's really bad for Club, but also an issue in other classes.

My suggestion from a while back is that we set maximum seeding points
for ANY contest in proportion to the number and quality (in terms of
seeing points, say) of the pilots flying in each contest within each
class. Then you could pick WGC team members off that list (with the
WGC bonus). In some cases a Super Regional contest might afford more
points than an under-attended national contest. This would allow the
Club Class to put all their wood behind one large and one small
contest each year on opposite sides of the country. That way you can
at least score some points every year and if you did really well, make
the team.

The other alternative is to expand the WGC criteria beyond three years
- not my favorite option.

9B

mattm[_2_]

September 24th 10, 05:21 PM

On Sep 24, 12:11*pm, Andy > wrote:
> On Sep 24, 8:10*am, David Leonard
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > At 13:52 24 September 2010, Andy wrote:
>
> > >It's very informative to look at the team selection lists John linked
> > >to:
>
> > >http://soaringweb.org/US_Team/HomePage.html
>
> > >To be clear, here is what we are doing right now for Club Class world
> > >team selection:
>
> > >Five pilots "qualified" for the world team in Club Class in 2010 with
> > >one scoring more than 80 points and the others scoring in the 50s and
> > >below. Keep in mind that the points are based only on scores of
> > >participating Club Class gliders, not all competitors, in the Sports
> > >Class Nationals. Including all competitors would lower the scores
> > >further.
>
> > You might note that the WGC 2010 results were not factored in yet. That
> > pulls 2 more pilots above 50, one of them above 90 (nice job Sean!).
>
> > >Only one pilot flying a Club Class glider even completed two Sports
> > >Class National contests in the past three years, finishing 19th out of
> > >40 and 10th out of 30. The other two pilots each withdrew from one of
> > >the two nationals they competed in. For the contests they completed
> > >they finished 15th and 16th.
>
> > You might also note that all 3 of them flew gliders not on the IGC list in
> > one or both of the qualifying contests. They are only on the expanded SSA
> > list.
>
> > snip
>
> > >If you want a vibrant Club Class make it happen! I think everyone
> > >would love to see it. It's not the rules that stand in the way, it's
> > >apathy.
>
> > It might be more the cost of competing in US Nationals than apathy. Its
> > hard enough for the "rich guys" in the other FAI classes, harder still
> > for a cost sensitive class. But the cost of a Nationals entry is a
> > pittance compared to the cost of flying in an overseas WGC, even with US
> > Team support. *Then again, the experience is priceless...
>
> > I support establishing a US Club Class, even though I won't likely go
> > back to flying old gliders again to compete in it.
>
> > -Dave
>
> Good adds Dave. It seemed odd to see Sean down the list - nice job
> indeed!
>
> Your comments do take us back to finding ways to make competition less
> onerous in terms of time and distance - mostly at the National level.
> It's really bad for Club, but also an issue in other classes.
>
> My suggestion from a while back is that we set maximum seeding points
> for ANY contest in proportion to the number and quality (in terms of
> seeing points, say) of the pilots flying in each contest within each
> class. Then you could pick WGC team members off that list (with the
> WGC bonus). In some cases a Super Regional contest might afford more
> points than an under-attended national contest. *This would allow the
> Club Class to put all their wood behind one large and one small
> contest each year on opposite sides of the country. That way you can
> at least score some points every year and if you did really well, make
> the team.
>
> The other alternative is to expand the WGC criteria beyond three years
> - not my favorite option.
>
> 9B

Here we go with one of our favorite containers of worms... :-)
Actually I kinda like that idea with a counter-continental super-
regional.
However, at the moment all that a super-regional gives you is more
scheduled days and more seeded pilots from outside the region. The
pilot ranking value isn't any higher. It would be worthwhile to
compare
how the ranking done under the IGC system matches up, although it
would require a fair bit of number crunching.

-- Matt

Andy[_10_]

September 24th 10, 06:27 PM

On Sep 24, 9:21*am, mattm > wrote:
> On Sep 24, 12:11*pm, Andy > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 24, 8:10*am, David Leonard
>
> > > wrote:
> > > At 13:52 24 September 2010, Andy wrote:
>
> > > >It's very informative to look at the team selection lists John linked
> > > >to:
>
> > > >http://soaringweb.org/US_Team/HomePage.html
>
> > > >To be clear, here is what we are doing right now for Club Class world
> > > >team selection:
>
> > > >Five pilots "qualified" for the world team in Club Class in 2010 with
> > > >one scoring more than 80 points and the others scoring in the 50s and
> > > >below. Keep in mind that the points are based only on scores of
> > > >participating Club Class gliders, not all competitors, in the Sports
> > > >Class Nationals. Including all competitors would lower the scores
> > > >further.
>
> > > You might note that the WGC 2010 results were not factored in yet. That
> > > pulls 2 more pilots above 50, one of them above 90 (nice job Sean!).
>
> > > >Only one pilot flying a Club Class glider even completed two Sports
> > > >Class National contests in the past three years, finishing 19th out of
> > > >40 and 10th out of 30. The other two pilots each withdrew from one of
> > > >the two nationals they competed in. For the contests they completed
> > > >they finished 15th and 16th.
>
> > > You might also note that all 3 of them flew gliders not on the IGC list in
> > > one or both of the qualifying contests. They are only on the expanded SSA
> > > list.
>
> > > snip
>
> > > >If you want a vibrant Club Class make it happen! I think everyone
> > > >would love to see it. It's not the rules that stand in the way, it's
> > > >apathy.
>
> > > It might be more the cost of competing in US Nationals than apathy. Its
> > > hard enough for the "rich guys" in the other FAI classes, harder still
> > > for a cost sensitive class. But the cost of a Nationals entry is a
> > > pittance compared to the cost of flying in an overseas WGC, even with US
> > > Team support. *Then again, the experience is priceless...
>
> > > I support establishing a US Club Class, even though I won't likely go
> > > back to flying old gliders again to compete in it.
>
> > > -Dave
>
> > Good adds Dave. It seemed odd to see Sean down the list - nice job
> > indeed!
>
> > Your comments do take us back to finding ways to make competition less
> > onerous in terms of time and distance - mostly at the National level.
> > It's really bad for Club, but also an issue in other classes.
>
> > My suggestion from a while back is that we set maximum seeding points
> > for ANY contest in proportion to the number and quality (in terms of
> > seeing points, say) of the pilots flying in each contest within each
> > class. Then you could pick WGC team members off that list (with the
> > WGC bonus). In some cases a Super Regional contest might afford more
> > points than an under-attended national contest. *This would allow the
> > Club Class to put all their wood behind one large and one small
> > contest each year on opposite sides of the country. That way you can
> > at least score some points every year and if you did really well, make
> > the team.
>
> > The other alternative is to expand the WGC criteria beyond three years
> > - not my favorite option.
>
> > 9B
>
> Here we go with one of our favorite containers of worms... :-)
> Actually I kinda like that idea with a counter-continental super-
> regional.
> However, at the moment all that a super-regional gives you is more
> scheduled days and more seeded pilots from outside the region. *The
> pilot ranking value isn't any higher. *It would be worthwhile to
> compare
> how the ranking done under the IGC system matches up, although it
> would require a fair bit of number crunching.
>
> -- Matt

Yup, the point would be to make the max seeding points go to 1.00 if
you had, say,10 total seeding points in the first 11 competitors in a
class (remember seeding points per pilot are on a 1.000 scale).
Anything below that could be pro-rata. You could make the scale non-
linear to up the total points available for contests where a class
didn't have 11 pilots but it was stacked with national champions, for
instance, but in general you'd need a minimum threshold in terms of
breadth as well as quality of competition to get the higher point
potential.

It just seems to me it would make much more sense to have a system
where the points you got were related to the number and quality of the
competition (and maybe also the number of days flown to a lesser
extent). The Nationals would still be for determining a national
champion to maintain the incentive for classes to gather in a single
contest.

9B

Tim[_2_]

September 24th 10, 08:40 PM

Everyone:

Great overall thread(s) on this subject with many good ideas and
comments to this dream of mine to bring Club Class to the shores of
the USA.

I agree with BB that "build it and they will come" is absolutely no
guarantee of short-term or long-term success for Club Class. Just look
at what happened to the World Class - sure they built it, but few ever
came to the party... no matter how good the party actually was or
could have been.

What Club Class supporters need to do now is 1) get together and let
each other know who is interested, 2) share and expand their passion
for this class and racing these older ships, 3) organize themselves
and contest organizers to a prolonged commitment to seeing if the
class works, 4) and come up with a plan of action - even if the first
step is convincing their local regional contest to ask for a club
class waiver AND promote the existence of a Club Class offering at
their next contest.

To that end, please join and tell your friends interested in Club
Class to join our facebook group:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=120361478018985

BB is correct when he says that the supports of Club Class need to get
off their rears and start making it happen.

Well, in fact, I suggested the idea of racing a Club Class at last
spring's Region 10N contest in Cherry Valley, AR. and we had a good
number of Club Class eligible gliders (9 entered). However, there were
a few/one glider that did not want to race in the FAI Class, and would
probably have not come to the contest otherwise. I told Micki and
Charlie that I wanted to see if a club class could work, but that I
did not want to freeze anyone out.

In retrospect, I should have stuck to my guns a little more and not
been so nice. Then we would have had two club class regionals
organized last year. And with 9 out of 10 glider in that sports class
being club class gliders, we effectively DID have another Club Class
regional last year.

Maybe Club Class supporters just have to make the commitment to this
push and realize that this push for Club Class at regionals as a first
step might just shut some people out from flying a handicapped class
if that affects the viability of sports class.

However, unless they are flying an open class ship, these pilots
turned away from sports class due to any "burgeoning" of Club Class
generally will still have a class to race in, albeit against newer
generation ships of their glider's class (i.e. in 15m, Std, 18m). They
might not like it, but we club class supporters need to think of our
own interests a little more rather than just sitting back and
accepting that Sports Class is the best racing opportunity we can
expect to ever get.

Team EY, Susan and I, are willing to lead this effort to organize a US
Club Class, but we will need the support of many more of you and the
support of the contest organizing world in general to make it happen.

Thanks,
Tim EY

[email protected]

September 25th 10, 03:27 AM

On Sep 21, 1:13*pm, Tim > wrote:
> Hello All:
>
> If you have not figured it out, this is a topic I care passionnately
> about...
>
> Could we try and give the members of the US RC that post here/read
> opinions here regularly an idea of the possible support for
> establishing a stand alone US Club Class Nationals?
>
> I recognize that the devil is alwawsy in the details, but please
> answer yes to the following question, maybe a substantial turn-out
> might impress upon the RC/USSTC.
>
> While I appreciate the anti-Club Class Camp and their arguments,
> supporters need to come up with some sort of data to support the
> viability or confirm the impossibility of this Class here in the USA.
>
> So, if you are not a supporter of this concept, or you do not
> affirmatively know of a pilot who might be willing to fly such a
> class, please do not post to this thread.
>
> Question: Would you, or someone you know, would willingly fly or offer
> your Club Class glider to someone who would fly at a stand-alone US
> Club Class Nationals?
>
> Thank You,
>
> Tim S. McAllister
> EY
>
> 2004,2006 US Team - Club Class
> 2005, 2007 FAI World GP

One RC member's positions:
1- I support the development of the club class building from the
regional level to the point where there is participation on a national
level sufficient to have a viable and meaningful national championship
anywhere in the US.
2- I do not support the expansion of the handicap list beyond the
range used at the most recent WGC. My personal experience is that the
gliders flying in this class do require some pilot adaptation in order
to be competitive.
3- I do support allowing gliders within the handicap range, but not on
the IGC list, to participate.
4- I do not support the elimination of the provision currently in
place to not allow previous US FAI WGC to represent the US in the WGC.
My position on this may well change if we don't start to see more than
a couple pilots serious enough to fly in the contests required to
qualify.
These are my personal opinions which will be part of my contribution
to the ongoing rules process
H Nixon
UH
2001, 2002 US Team- Club Class
SSA Competition Rules Subcommittee Chair

Andy[_10_]

September 25th 10, 10:02 PM

On Sep 24, 7:27*pm, wrote:
> On Sep 21, 1:13*pm, Tim > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hello All:
>
> > If you have not figured it out, this is a topic I care passionnately
> > about...
>
> > Could we try and give the members of the US RC that post here/read
> > opinions here regularly an idea of the possible support for
> > establishing a stand alone US Club Class Nationals?
>
> > I recognize that the devil is alwawsy in the details, but please
> > answer yes to the following question, maybe a substantial turn-out
> > might impress upon the RC/USSTC.
>
> > While I appreciate the anti-Club Class Camp and their arguments,
> > supporters need to come up with some sort of data to support the
> > viability or confirm the impossibility of this Class here in the USA.
>
> > So, if you are not a supporter of this concept, or you do not
> > affirmatively know of a pilot who might be willing to fly such a
> > class, please do not post to this thread.
>
> > Question: Would you, or someone you know, would willingly fly or offer
> > your Club Class glider to someone who would fly at a stand-alone US
> > Club Class Nationals?
>
> > Thank You,
>
> > Tim S. McAllister
> > EY
>
> > 2004,2006 US Team - Club Class
> > 2005, 2007 FAI World GP
>
> One RC member's positions:
> 1- I support the development of the club class building from the
> regional level to the point where there is participation on a national
> level sufficient to have a viable and meaningful national championship
> anywhere in the US.
> 2- I do not support the expansion of the handicap list beyond the
> range used at the most recent WGC. My personal experience is that the
> gliders flying in this class do require some pilot adaptation in order
> to be competitive.
> 3- I do support allowing gliders within the handicap range, but not on
> the IGC list, to participate.
> 4- I do not support the elimination of the provision currently in
> place to not allow previous US FAI WGC to represent the US in the WGC.
> My position on this may well change if we don't start to see more than
> a couple pilots serious enough to fly in the contests required to
> qualify.
> These are my personal opinions which will be part of my contribution
> to the ongoing rules process
> H Nixon
> UH
> 2001, 2002 US Team- Club Class
> SSA Competition Rules Subcommittee Chair

Hank,

If I look at 2 and 3 on your list it would allow current generation
Standard Class gliders (e.g. ASW-28, LS-8 and Discus 2) to compete in
club class since they have a handicap between the ASW-20 and the
Standard Cirrus. Is that correct?

If so, it's an interesting idea and is 100% within the objections
heard here that too much handicap range is bad - it actually _narrows_
the US Club Class handicap range by eliminating some flapped ships
like the LS-6 from cthe US list. BTW, there were 7 Discus 2s flying at
the 2010 Sports Nationals though admittedly 4 of them were USAFA
ships.

It would also significantly open up Club Class to many more highly-
ranked pilots who currently fly Standard Class. It might also
invigorate Standard Class by giving more competitive options to pilots
flying these ships. I presume there wouldn't be any objection to this
from the promoters of Club Class because of the narrow range of
handicaps allowed, but I'd be curious to hear if there is some
rationale as to why this isn't a good idea.

I'd be willing to support Hank's proposal, even though I have doubts
as to whether it will be enough, as a way to bring everyone together.

9B

Andy[_10_]

September 25th 10, 10:55 PM

On Sep 24, 7:27*pm, wrote:
> On Sep 21, 1:13*pm, Tim > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hello All:
>
> > If you have not figured it out, this is a topic I care passionnately
> > about...
>
> > Could we try and give the members of the US RC that post here/read
> > opinions here regularly an idea of the possible support for
> > establishing a stand alone US Club Class Nationals?
>
> > I recognize that the devil is alwawsy in the details, but please
> > answer yes to the following question, maybe a substantial turn-out
> > might impress upon the RC/USSTC.
>
> > While I appreciate the anti-Club Class Camp and their arguments,
> > supporters need to come up with some sort of data to support the
> > viability or confirm the impossibility of this Class here in the USA.
>
> > So, if you are not a supporter of this concept, or you do not
> > affirmatively know of a pilot who might be willing to fly such a
> > class, please do not post to this thread.
>
> > Question: Would you, or someone you know, would willingly fly or offer
> > your Club Class glider to someone who would fly at a stand-alone US
> > Club Class Nationals?
>
> > Thank You,
>
> > Tim S. McAllister
> > EY
>
> > 2004,2006 US Team - Club Class
> > 2005, 2007 FAI World GP
>
> One RC member's positions:
> 1- I support the development of the club class building from the
> regional level to the point where there is participation on a national
> level sufficient to have a viable and meaningful national championship
> anywhere in the US.
> 2- I do not support the expansion of the handicap list beyond the
> range used at the most recent WGC. My personal experience is that the
> gliders flying in this class do require some pilot adaptation in order
> to be competitive.
> 3- I do support allowing gliders within the handicap range, but not on
> the IGC list, to participate.
> 4- I do not support the elimination of the provision currently in
> place to not allow previous US FAI WGC to represent the US in the WGC.
> My position on this may well change if we don't start to see more than
> a couple pilots serious enough to fly in the contests required to
> qualify.
> These are my personal opinions which will be part of my contribution
> to the ongoing rules process
> H Nixon
> UH
> 2001, 2002 US Team- Club Class
> SSA Competition Rules Subcommittee Chair

Hank,

If I read points 2 and 3 right you are proposing to _narrow_ the range
of handicaps in the US Club Class - eliminating from the list the
likes of the LS-6 but also allowing the current generation of Standard
Class gliders, such as the ASW-28, Discus 2 and LS-8. Is that correct?

If that's the proposal it is interesting in that it completely blunts
the argument that we shouldn't broaden the handicap range of Club
Class (in fact it takes things in the opposite direction) but it does
allow a significant number of national caliber competition pilots to
fly Club Class. I'd be curious to hear reactions. I think it might be
too modest a move, but it could invigorate interest in Club Class AND
Standard Class by broadening the competitive possibilities for owners
of these glider types.

9B

Andy[_10_]

September 26th 10, 01:01 AM

On Sep 25, 2:55*pm, Andy > wrote:
> On Sep 24, 7:27*pm, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 21, 1:13*pm, Tim > wrote:
>
> > > Hello All:
>
> > > If you have not figured it out, this is a topic I care passionnately
> > > about...
>
> > > Could we try and give the members of the US RC that post here/read
> > > opinions here regularly an idea of the possible support for
> > > establishing a stand alone US Club Class Nationals?
>
> > > I recognize that the devil is alwawsy in the details, but please
> > > answer yes to the following question, maybe a substantial turn-out
> > > might impress upon the RC/USSTC.
>
> > > While I appreciate the anti-Club Class Camp and their arguments,
> > > supporters need to come up with some sort of data to support the
> > > viability or confirm the impossibility of this Class here in the USA.
>
> > > So, if you are not a supporter of this concept, or you do not
> > > affirmatively know of a pilot who might be willing to fly such a
> > > class, please do not post to this thread.
>
> > > Question: Would you, or someone you know, would willingly fly or offer
> > > your Club Class glider to someone who would fly at a stand-alone US
> > > Club Class Nationals?
>
> > > Thank You,
>
> > > Tim S. McAllister
> > > EY
>
> > > 2004,2006 US Team - Club Class
> > > 2005, 2007 FAI World GP
>
> > One RC member's positions:
> > 1- I support the development of the club class building from the
> > regional level to the point where there is participation on a national
> > level sufficient to have a viable and meaningful national championship
> > anywhere in the US.
> > 2- I do not support the expansion of the handicap list beyond the
> > range used at the most recent WGC. My personal experience is that the
> > gliders flying in this class do require some pilot adaptation in order
> > to be competitive.
> > 3- I do support allowing gliders within the handicap range, but not on
> > the IGC list, to participate.
> > 4- I do not support the elimination of the provision currently in
> > place to not allow previous US FAI WGC to represent the US in the WGC.
> > My position on this may well change if we don't start to see more than
> > a couple pilots serious enough to fly in the contests required to
> > qualify.
> > These are my personal opinions which will be part of my contribution
> > to the ongoing rules process
> > H Nixon
> > UH
> > 2001, 2002 US Team- Club Class
> > SSA Competition Rules Subcommittee Chair
>
> Hank,
>
> If I read points 2 and 3 right you are proposing to _narrow_ the range
> of handicaps in the US Club Class - eliminating from the list the
> likes of the LS-6 but also allowing the current generation of Standard
> Class gliders, such as the ASW-28, Discus 2 and LS-8. Is that correct?
>
> If that's the proposal it is interesting in that it completely blunts
> the argument that we shouldn't broaden the handicap range of Club
> Class (in fact it takes things in the opposite direction) but it does
> allow a significant number of national caliber competition pilots to
> fly Club Class. I'd be curious to hear reactions. I think it might be
> too modest a move, but it could invigorate interest in Club Class AND
> Standard Class by broadening the competitive possibilities for owners
> of these glider types.
>
> 9B

Sorry - didn't mean to post that twice!