USMC declares AH-1Z Viper combat ready

[[email protected]]

"The US Marine Corps has finally cleared
the Bell Helicopter AH-1Z Viper for operations,
only a few weeks ahead of a decision to
launch full-rate production.

Declared "operationally effective and suitable"
on 29 September, the AH-1Z programme can
close the book on a protracted, four-year
operational evaluation (OPEVAL) process
delayed by reliability and technical glitches."

See:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/09/30/348003/usmc-declares-ah-1z-viper-combat-ready.html

It's finally here! Will this be the last of the
Cobra line? Or will they start over again at
AH-1AA, AH-1BB........etc.? :)

[Daryl Hunt[_2_]]

On 10/1/2010 3:05 PM, wrote:
> "The US Marine Corps has finally cleared
> the Bell Helicopter AH-1Z Viper for operations,
> only a few weeks ahead of a decision to
> launch full-rate production.
>
> Declared "operationally effective and suitable"
> on 29 September, the AH-1Z programme can
> close the book on a protracted, four-year
> operational evaluation (OPEVAL) process
> delayed by reliability and technical glitches."
>
> See:
>
> http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/09/30/348003/usmc-declares-ah-1z-viper-combat-ready.html
>
> It's finally here! Will this be the last of the
> Cobra line? Or will they start over again at
> AH-1AA, AH-1BB........etc.? :)


A few years ago, I witnessed a mock fight between the New Apache
and the old AH-1U. Short fight. The Cobra ran rampant over the
Apache. It's quicker, nimbler, smaller, etc.. and still packs
quite a whollop. I think it was a mistake for the Army to rely
almost soley on the Apaches when a cheaper AH-1 can do pretty
much the same job. Of course, they've asked the Apache to do
much more than it really should and have gotten off pretty lucky
a couple of times but it's going to bite them again.

Like when they ordered the Apaches to go after the Iraqis best
just outside of Bagdad. All 40 came back damaged and one was
lost. The results? Those Iraqi troops were still there. It took
a bunch of fast movers to plow the fields. After that, the Army
just walked in, taking body counts and prisoners.

[[email protected]]

On Oct 1, 2:46*pm, Daryl Hunt > wrote:
> On 10/1/2010 3:05 PM, wrote:
>
>
>
> > "The US Marine Corps has finally cleared
> > the Bell Helicopter AH-1Z Viper for operations,
> > only a few weeks ahead of a decision to
> > launch full-rate production.
>
> > Declared "operationally effective and suitable"
> > on 29 September, the AH-1Z programme can
> > close the book on a protracted, four-year
> > operational evaluation (OPEVAL) process
> > delayed by reliability and technical glitches."
>
> > See:
>
> >http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/09/30/348003/usmc-declares-...
>
> > It's finally here! *Will this be the last of the
> > Cobra line? *Or will they start over again at
> > AH-1AA, AH-1BB........etc.? * * :)
>
> A few years ago, I witnessed a mock fight between the New Apache
> and the old AH-1U. *Short fight. *The Cobra ran rampant over the
> Apache. *It's quicker, nimbler, smaller, etc.. and still packs
> quite a whollop. *I think it was a mistake for the Army to rely
> almost soley on the Apaches when a cheaper AH-1 can do pretty
> much the same job. *Of course, they've asked the Apache to do
> much more than it really should and have gotten off pretty lucky
> a couple of times but it's going to bite them again.
>

Didn't the Army prefer the Apache because it's mast-mounted
radar allowed it to fire at tanks from behind hills and such?

[Dan[_12_]]

On 10/2/2010 12:55 AM, wrote:
> On Oct 1, 2:46 pm, Daryl > wrote:
>> On 10/1/2010 3:05 PM, wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> "The US Marine Corps has finally cleared
>>> the Bell Helicopter AH-1Z Viper for operations,
>>> only a few weeks ahead of a decision to
>>> launch full-rate production.
>>
>>> Declared "operationally effective and suitable"
>>> on 29 September, the AH-1Z programme can
>>> close the book on a protracted, four-year
>>> operational evaluation (OPEVAL) process
>>> delayed by reliability and technical glitches."
>>
>>> See:
>>
>>> http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/09/30/348003/usmc-declares-...
>>
>>> It's finally here! Will this be the last of the
>>> Cobra line? Or will they start over again at
>>> AH-1AA, AH-1BB........etc.? :)
>>
>> A few years ago, I witnessed a mock fight between the New Apache
>> and the old AH-1U. Short fight. The Cobra ran rampant over the
>> Apache. It's quicker, nimbler, smaller, etc.. and still packs
>> quite a whollop. I think it was a mistake for the Army to rely
>> almost soley on the Apaches when a cheaper AH-1 can do pretty
>> much the same job. Of course, they've asked the Apache to do
>> much more than it really should and have gotten off pretty lucky
>> a couple of times but it's going to bite them again.
>>
>
> Didn't the Army prefer the Apache because it's mast-mounted
> radar allowed it to fire at tanks from behind hills and such?

Actually the Longbow masthead contains a radar that is used to hand
off to Hellfire that can fly over the hill behind which the Apache is
lurking. It can also be used to recce before the Apache pops up and uses
other weapons.

http://www.jolly-rogers.com/airpower/ah-64d/64d-av.htm

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Daryl Hunt[_2_]]

On 10/1/2010 11:55 PM, wrote:
> On Oct 1, 2:46 pm, Daryl > wrote:
>> On 10/1/2010 3:05 PM, wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> "The US Marine Corps has finally cleared
>>> the Bell Helicopter AH-1Z Viper for operations,
>>> only a few weeks ahead of a decision to
>>> launch full-rate production.
>>
>>> Declared "operationally effective and suitable"
>>> on 29 September, the AH-1Z programme can
>>> close the book on a protracted, four-year
>>> operational evaluation (OPEVAL) process
>>> delayed by reliability and technical glitches."
>>
>>> See:
>>
>>> http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/09/30/348003/usmc-declares-...
>>
>>> It's finally here! Will this be the last of the
>>> Cobra line? Or will they start over again at
>>> AH-1AA, AH-1BB........etc.? :)
>>
>> A few years ago, I witnessed a mock fight between the New Apache
>> and the old AH-1U. Short fight. The Cobra ran rampant over the
>> Apache. It's quicker, nimbler, smaller, etc.. and still packs
>> quite a whollop. I think it was a mistake for the Army to rely
>> almost soley on the Apaches when a cheaper AH-1 can do pretty
>> much the same job. Of course, they've asked the Apache to do
>> much more than it really should and have gotten off pretty lucky
>> a couple of times but it's going to bite them again.
>>
>
> Didn't the Army prefer the Apache because it's mast-mounted
> radar allowed it to fire at tanks from behind hills and such?

You are thinking of the Long Bow. That came after the Apache was
well into the Army inventory. The Long Bow finally lived up to
the Apaches hopes.

The AH-64D was introduced in 1992. The Long Bow was introduced
in 1997. 232 A and D models were converted to Long Bow specs.

You would think that the Apache Long Bow could take on a Cobra
heads up. While the Apache was progressing so was the Cobra.
And the Cobra is still more agile and nimble being much lighter.

The Apache was sought after by the ARmy for it's superior
firepower. It also was supposed to be better in flight. It
isn't. It's too heavy for a dog on dog fight in a Helo war.
While the Apache is heavily armored, it is still suseptable to
the weapons carried on the more nimble Cobra. If you loaded out
an Apache with the armor to take hits from the Cobras 20mm M61
Vulcan Cannon the Apache would have trouble flying being so laid
down with armor. The same goes for the Cobra against the 30mm
chain gun of the Apache.

Each one has a different mission that it does better than the
other. The Marines like to get down and dirty and their Ground
troops and air assets are all under one commander. AFter hearing
many of the ARmy types speak out, this is what they want as well
but don't have. They may have command over the Apaches but the
fast movers are all Marine, Navy or AF. I think if the Air
Assets were commanded by the ground commanders we would have the
same things happen that broke the AF away from the ARmy in the
first place. The Army is very, very large and the Ground CO
isn't expected to understand or consider all things in the Air
Assets. The Marines are smaller and they can do this. Give the
CO a break. He has enough going on already.

[dott.Piergiorgio]

Il 01/10/2010 23:05, ha scritto:

> It's finally here! Will this be the last of the
> Cobra line? Or will they start over again at
> AH-1AA, AH-1BB........etc.? :)

the latter, out of question, AA, AB, AC and so on...

It's a design on par with the .50 M2

Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.

[Ray O'Hara[_3_]]

"dott.Piergiorgio" > wrote in
message ...
> Il 01/10/2010 23:05, ha scritto:
>
>> It's finally here! Will this be the last of the
>> Cobra line? Or will they start over again at
>> AH-1AA, AH-1BB........etc.? :)
>
> the latter, out of question, AA, AB, AC and so on...
>
> It's a design on par with the .50 M2
>
> Best regards from Italy,
> dott. Piergiorgio.

AH-A1M1

[Alan Nordin]

On Oct 2, 2:21*am, Daryl Hunt > wrote:

> Each one has a different mission that it does better than the
> other.

Also, the Cobra's base is a ship. You can get more AH1s in the hangar
of a LHD than you can get AH64s.

[Daryl Hunt[_2_]]

On 10/3/2010 2:25 PM, Alan Nordin wrote:
> On Oct 2, 2:21 am, Daryl > wrote:
>
>> Each one has a different mission that it does better than the
>> other.
>
> Also, the Cobra's base is a ship. You can get more AH1s in the hangar
> of a LHD than you can get AH64s.

Sounds like you spent a day or two in one of those floating Chow
Halls.

[Chris]

On Oct 2, 2:21*am, Daryl Hunt > wrote:

> You would think that the Apache Long Bow could take on a Cobra
> heads up. *While the Apache was progressing so was the Cobra.
> And the Cobra is still more agile and nimble being much lighter.

I don't believe that chopper's air-to-air capability matters that
much. Before they could get into a merge they would have to survive
all of the fighters, air defense and golden BB's that are a much
bigger concern than another chopper's dogfighting ability. And for
that, the Cobra has a smaller profile so it should be less vulnerable
to BB's, but they are both equally vulnerable to fighters, MANPADs,
Shilkas, etc.

Chris Manteuffel

[Typhoon502]

On Oct 4, 10:49*am, Chris > wrote:
> On Oct 2, 2:21*am, Daryl Hunt > wrote:
>
> > You would think that the Apache Long Bow could take on a Cobra
> > heads up. *While the Apache was progressing so was the Cobra.
> > And the Cobra is still more agile and nimble being much lighter.
>
> I don't believe that chopper's air-to-air capability matters that
> much. Before they could get into a merge they would have to survive
> all of the fighters, air defense and golden BB's that are a much
> bigger concern than another chopper's dogfighting ability. And for
> that, the Cobra has a smaller profile so it should be less vulnerable
> to BB's, but they are both equally vulnerable to fighters, MANPADs,
> Shilkas, etc.

A2A performance provides a good overall picture of the airframe's
speed and agility, which definitely matters in overall operational
use. One other thing about Cobras...they are HARD to spot at range if
they're heading toward or away from you and from the side perspective
at a distance, they're very Hueyish. Apaches are overall easier to ID.

[Andrew Chaplin]

Typhoon502 > wrote in news:66b90417-2935-4178-97a4-
:

> On Oct 4, 10:49*am, Chris > wrote:
>> On Oct 2, 2:21*am, Daryl Hunt > wrote:
>>
>> > You would think that the Apache Long Bow could take on a Cobra
>> > heads up. *While the Apache was progressing so was the Cobra.
>> > And the Cobra is still more agile and nimble being much lighter.
>>
>> I don't believe that chopper's air-to-air capability matters that
>> much. Before they could get into a merge they would have to survive
>> all of the fighters, air defense and golden BB's that are a much
>> bigger concern than another chopper's dogfighting ability. And for
>> that, the Cobra has a smaller profile so it should be less vulnerable
>> to BB's, but they are both equally vulnerable to fighters, MANPADs,
>> Shilkas, etc.
>
> A2A performance provides a good overall picture of the airframe's
> speed and agility, which definitely matters in overall operational
> use. One other thing about Cobras...they are HARD to spot at range if
> they're heading toward or away from you and from the side perspective
> at a distance, they're very Hueyish. Apaches are overall easier to ID.

As a long time a/c recce wienie, I think there is very little difficulty
in identifying a Cobra side-on. As you say, it's a challenge from the
front--never worried about it from behind.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.]

Andrew Chaplin wrote:
>
> As a long time a/c recce wienie, I think there is very little difficulty
> in identifying a Cobra side-on. As you say, it's a challenge from the
> front--never worried about it from behind.

Aren't you the clever one!
;-)

[[email protected]]

On Oct 4, 7:49*am, Chris > wrote:
> On Oct 2, 2:21*am, Daryl Hunt > wrote:
>
> > You would think that the Apache Long Bow could take on a Cobra
> > heads up. *While the Apache was progressing so was the Cobra.
> > And the Cobra is still more agile and nimble being much lighter.
>
> I don't believe that chopper's air-to-air capability matters that
> much. Before they could get into a merge they would have to survive
> all of the fighters, air defense and golden BB's that are a much
> bigger concern than another chopper's dogfighting ability. And for
> that, the Cobra has a smaller profile so it should be less vulnerable
> to BB's, but they are both equally vulnerable to fighters, MANPADs,
> Shilkas, etc.
>
> Chris Manteuffel


I've heard of helos being shot down by jets, including the
accidental downing of Blackhawks by F-15's during
Operation Northern Watch, and the downing of an Iraqi
helo by a F-15E-delivered laser-guided bomb during
Operation Desert Storm.

But has there ever been a helo vs. helo battle?

I'm talking about real combat, not wargames/exercises.

[Paul J. Adam[_3_]]

In message
>,
writes
>But has there ever been a helo vs. helo battle?

There were encounters between Iraqi Mi-24s and Iranian Cobras during
their war, though I don't know the number or outcomes.

--
He thinks too much, such men are dangerous.

Paul J. Adam

[Typhoon502]

On Oct 4, 9:44*pm, Andrew Chaplin >
wrote:
> Typhoon502 > wrote in news:66b90417-2935-4178-97a4-

> > A2A performance provides a good overall picture of the airframe's
> > speed and agility, which definitely matters in overall operational
> > use. One other thing about Cobras...they are HARD to spot at range if
> > they're heading toward or away from you and from the side perspective
> > at a distance, they're very Hueyish. Apaches are overall easier to ID.
>
> As a long time a/c recce wienie, I think there is very little difficulty
> in identifying a Cobra side-on. As you say, it's a challenge from the
> front--never worried about it from behind.

You might think not but try spotting one from a couple of miles
puttering along through the haze over Topsail Island near MCAS New
River after you've seen enough Hueys to bore you to tears. I'm a
spotter myself, but I just about squinted my eyes out trying to
resolve the shape. Finally had one overfly our position on the beach
on the next-to-last day there; I'd seen probably a few dozen CH-53s,
some Ospreys, and a scattering of Hueys, but that one Cobra made my
day.

[[email protected]]

On Oct 5, 2:10*pm, "Paul J. Adam"
> wrote:
> In message
> >,
> writes
>
> >But has there ever been a helo vs. helo battle?
>
> There were encounters between Iraqi Mi-24s and Iranian Cobras during
> their war, though I don't know the number or outcomes.
>
> --
> He thinks too much, such men are dangerous.
>
> Paul J. Adam

Ok, let's see. According to the list of Iraqi air-to-air victories
at:

http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&Itemid=47


12Jan81, An Iraqi Mi-25 used 12.7mm fire to down an Iranian AH-1J
16Jul82, An Iraqi Mi-25 intercepted An Iranian Bell 214C (no other
details available)
27Oct82, An Iraqi Mi-24 used an AT-6 missile to down an Iranian F-4E
14Sep83, An Iraqi Mi-25 downed an Iranian AH-1J (no other details
available)
5Feb84, 3 cases of Iraqi Mi-25's downing Iranian AH-1J's (no other
details available)
25Feb84, 3 cases of Iraqi Mi-25's downing Iranian AH-1J's (no other
details available)
16Feb86, An Iraqi Mi-25 downed an Iranian AH-1J (no other details
available)
22May86, An Iraqi Mi-25 downed an Iranian AH-1J (no other details
available)
22May88, an Iraqi SA.342L used 20mm fire to down an Iranian AH-1J
23May88, an Iraqi SA.342L used 20mm fire to down an Iranian AB.214C
25May88, 2 cases of Iraqi Mi-25's using 20mm (23mm?) fire to down
Iranian AB.214C's
30May88, An Iraqi Mi-25 used 20mm (23mm?) fire to down an Iranian AB.
214C
3Jun88, An Iraqi Mi-25 used 20mm (23mm?) fire to down an Iranian AB.
214C
4Jun88, An Iraqi Mi-25 used 20mm (23mm?) fire to down an Iranian AB.
214C
9Jun88, An Iraqi Mi-25 used 20mm (23mm?) fire to down an Iranian AB.
214C


And from the lists of Iranian air-to-air victories at:

http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=35&Itemid=47

and

http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=36&Itemid=47


14Nov80, An Iranian AH-1J used a TOW to down an Iraqi SA.342
14Nov80, An Iranian AH-1J used 20mm fire to down an Iraqi Mi-25
24Feb81, 2 cases of Iranian AH-1J's using TOW's to down Iraqi SA.342's
??Mar82, An Iranian AH-1J used a TOW to down an Iraqi SA.342
2Nov82, 2 cases of Iranian AH-1J's using 20mm fire to down Iraqi SA.
342M's
3Nov82, An Iranian AH-1J used 20mm fire to down an Iraqi SA.316B
21Nov82, An Iranian AH-1J used 20mm fire to down an Iraqi Mi-25
??Jul83, An Iranian AH-1J used 20mm+68mm (70mm?) rockets to down an
Iraqi MiG-21MF
27Feb84, An Iranian AH-1J used 20mm fire to down an Iraqi Su-20
??Feb84, An Iranian AH-1J used a TOW to down an Iraqi Mi-25
3Mar84, An Iranian AH-1J+RH-53 used 20mm+12.7mm fire to down an Iraqi
MiG-23MF
10Feb86, An Iranain AH-1J used a BGM-71 TOW to down an Iraqi SA.342
13Feb86, An Iranian AH-1J used a BGM-71 TOW to down an Iraqi Mi-25
14Feb86, An Iranian AH-1J used 20mm fire to down an Iraqi MiG-21
18Feb86, an Iranian AH-1J used a BGM-71 TOW to down an Iraqi Mi-25
19Jul88, An Iranian AH-1J used 20mm fire to down an Iraqi SA.342L


Note: the Mi-25 is a version of the "Hind" that was used by the
Iraqi's at the time.

Question: Are the air-to-air kill tables linked above accurate?

If so, the Iran/Iraq war featured more helo vs. helo combat than any
other
conflict so far.

[Daryl Hunt[_2_]]

On 10/9/2010 6:57 PM, wrote:
> On Oct 5, 2:10 pm, "Paul J. Adam"
> > wrote:
>> In message
>> >,
>> writes
>>
>>> But has there ever been a helo vs. helo battle?
>>
>> There were encounters between Iraqi Mi-24s and Iranian Cobras during
>> their war, though I don't know the number or outcomes.
>>
>> --
>> He thinks too much, such men are dangerous.
>>
>> Paul J. Adam
>
> Ok, let's see. According to the list of Iraqi air-to-air victories
> at:

>
> Note: the Mi-25 is a version of the "Hind" that was used by the
> Iraqi's at the time.

One of the Fake Special Forces claimed that he downed a Hind-D
with a 7.65 rifle in Afganstan. He wouldn't go into how he did
it. I mentioned that the Hind had one weak point. The Oil
Cooling Radiator. He jumped on that and said that is what he
hit. RED FLAG!!! Even if you did hit it, it had about 45
minutes of flight left before the gearbox would freeze up.

I stated there is no way he could have done it because he was
still here. You shoot at the Hind-D and it kills you. Nothing
short of a 20mm or larger can do anything other than **** it off.
Just as well be poking a hornets nest.

[[email protected]]

U.S. Marines Eye AH-1Z Full-Rate Production:

"With a successful operational evaluation in hand, the
U.S. Marine Corps is planning to request approval for
full-rate production of the new AH-1Z attack helicopter
after a years-long shortfall.

The Defense Acquisition Board is set to review the
program in early November, says Col. Harry Hewson,
who manages the Huey and Cobra upgrade programs
for the Naval Air Systems Command."

See:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/awst/2010/10/18/AW_10_18_2010_p28-261809.xml&headline=U.S.%20Marines%20Eye%20AH-1Z%20Full-Rate%20Production&channel=defense