Airport security.

[Roy Smith]

I had an interesting experience yesterday. When I drove into the
airport (White Plains, HPN), there was a checkpoint set up on the access
road. It looked semi-permanent; a drive-through pavillion (sort of a
large-tent open at both ends) with flood lights installed inside.

It was manned by an armed guard (I'm no expert, but it looked like an
M16 to me) in military dress, accompanied by a civilian police officer.
The military guy asked to see my drivers license while the police
officer searched the trunk of the car. Very polite, and it only took a
minute, but very no-nonsense either.

Anybody else see this level of security at their airports? HPN is not
your typical GA field. It's got scheduled airline traffic, and even the
GA side of the field is home to stuff you don't normally think of as GA
(it's not uncommon to see privately owned 737's on the ramp). There's a
lot of stuff that's been done lately in the name of national security
which I strongly disagree with, but this seemed quite reasonable and
appropriate to me, especially given the easy access to heavy metal on
the GA ramp.

[Kyler Laird]

Roy Smith > writes:

>There's a
>lot of stuff that's been done lately in the name of national security
>which I strongly disagree with, but this seemed quite reasonable and
>appropriate to me, especially given the easy access to heavy metal on
>the GA ramp.

So...what would they have done if they discovered a bunch of maintenance
tools and firearms in your trunk? Escort you to your plane?

--kyler

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
Kyler Laird > wrote:

> Roy Smith > writes:
>
> >There's a
> >lot of stuff that's been done lately in the name of national security
> >which I strongly disagree with, but this seemed quite reasonable and
> >appropriate to me, especially given the easy access to heavy metal on
> >the GA ramp.
>
> So...what would they have done if they discovered a bunch of maintenance
> tools and firearms in your trunk? Escort you to your plane?
>
> --kyler

I assume I would have found out what the business end of an M-16 looked
like and at the very least gotten to answer a lot of pointed questions.
And I probably wouldn't be sitting here in my living room today typing
this.

[EDR]

In article >, Kyler Laird
> wrote:

> Roy Smith > writes:
>
> >There's a
> >lot of stuff that's been done lately in the name of national security
> >which I strongly disagree with, but this seemed quite reasonable and
> >appropriate to me, especially given the easy access to heavy metal on
> >the GA ramp.
>
> So...what would they have done if they discovered a bunch of maintenance
> tools and firearms in your trunk? Escort you to your plane?

Ah! I can see it now! I have a high-power rifle with a scope and ammo
in the trunk.
Security: "Excuse me sir, what is this and what do you intend to do
with it?"
You: "Well I (fill in the blank)."

[Dave Stadt]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Kyler Laird > wrote:
>
> > Roy Smith > writes:
> >
> > >There's a
> > >lot of stuff that's been done lately in the name of national security
> > >which I strongly disagree with, but this seemed quite reasonable and
> > >appropriate to me, especially given the easy access to heavy metal on
> > >the GA ramp.
> >
> > So...what would they have done if they discovered a bunch of maintenance
> > tools and firearms in your trunk? Escort you to your plane?
> >
> > --kyler
>
> I assume I would have found out what the business end of an M-16 looked
> like and at the very least gotten to answer a lot of pointed questions.
> And I probably wouldn't be sitting here in my living room today typing
> this.

Maintenance tools and firearms locked in a trunk are illegal where you live?

[Kyler Laird]

EDR > writes:

>> So...what would they have done if they discovered a bunch of maintenance
>> tools and firearms in your trunk? Escort you to your plane?

>Ah! I can see it now! I have a high-power rifle with a scope and ammo
>in the trunk.
>Security: "Excuse me sir, what is this and what do you intend to do
>with it?"
>You: "Well I (fill in the blank)."

"...plan to take it to my plane and leave."

Now what?

--kyler

[EDR]

In article >, Kyler Laird
> wrote:

> EDR > writes:
>
> >> So...what would they have done if they discovered a bunch of maintenance
> >> tools and firearms in your trunk? Escort you to your plane?
>
> >Ah! I can see it now! I have a high-power rifle with a scope and ammo
> >in the trunk.
> >Security: "Excuse me sir, what is this and what do you intend to do
> >with it?"
> >You: "Well I (fill in the blank)."
>
> "...plan to take it to my plane and leave."
> Now what?

I was going to post: "You are going on a hunting trip and plan to fly
to the destination and meet your guide. You have a high powered rifle
in the trunk with ammo."

[Roy Smith]

In article m>,
"Dave Stadt" > wrote:

> "Roy Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > Kyler Laird > wrote:
> >
> > > Roy Smith > writes:
> > >
> > > >There's a
> > > >lot of stuff that's been done lately in the name of national security
> > > >which I strongly disagree with, but this seemed quite reasonable and
> > > >appropriate to me, especially given the easy access to heavy metal on
> > > >the GA ramp.
> > >
> > > So...what would they have done if they discovered a bunch of maintenance
> > > tools and firearms in your trunk? Escort you to your plane?
> > >
> > > --kyler
> >
> > I assume I would have found out what the business end of an M-16 looked
> > like and at the very least gotten to answer a lot of pointed questions.
> > And I probably wouldn't be sitting here in my living room today typing
> > this.
>
> Maintenance tools and firearms locked in a trunk are illegal where you live?
>
>

No, they're not. But you asked me what they would have done if they
found them in my trunk, and I gave you my best guess.

What would you expect would happen?

[Kyler Laird]

Roy Smith > writes:

>> > > >There's a
>> > > >lot of stuff that's been done lately in the name of national security
>> > > >which I strongly disagree with, but this seemed quite reasonable and
>> > > >appropriate to me, especially given the easy access to heavy metal on
>> > > >the GA ramp.

[...]

>> Maintenance tools and firearms locked in a trunk are illegal where you live?

>No, they're not. But you asked me what they would have done if they
>found them in my trunk, and I gave you my best guess.

>What would you expect would happen?

I think it was a decent guess. The point I was trying to address was the
"seemed quite reasonable" part. If you think it's reasonable that they're
searching cars, what *reasonable* thing do you expect them to do when they
find something interesting?

I contend that what they're doing is only reasonable from the perspective
of someone wanting to cover his butt and increase his budget. It has
nothing to do with preventing violent crime ('cept maybe kidnapping). It
has everything to do with hassling people who are not causing problems in
order to make bystanders feel warm and fuzzy.

Then again, maybe I'm just a cynic. (Who'd a thunk it?)

--kyler

[Dave Stadt]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article m>,
> "Dave Stadt" > wrote:
>
> > "Roy Smith" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > In article >,
> > > Kyler Laird > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Roy Smith > writes:
> > > >
> > > > >There's a
> > > > >lot of stuff that's been done lately in the name of national
security
> > > > >which I strongly disagree with, but this seemed quite reasonable
and
> > > > >appropriate to me, especially given the easy access to heavy metal
on
> > > > >the GA ramp.
> > > >
> > > > So...what would they have done if they discovered a bunch of
maintenance
> > > > tools and firearms in your trunk? Escort you to your plane?
> > > >
> > > > --kyler
> > >
> > > I assume I would have found out what the business end of an M-16
looked
> > > like and at the very least gotten to answer a lot of pointed
questions.
> > > And I probably wouldn't be sitting here in my living room today typing
> > > this.
> >
> > Maintenance tools and firearms locked in a trunk are illegal where you
live?
> >
> >
>
> No, they're not. But you asked me what they would have done if they
> found them in my trunk, and I gave you my best guess.
>
> What would you expect would happen?

I would expect them to say have a nice day, apologize for delaying you and
let you go about your business. Anything less would be unreasonable,
intolerable and unacceptable.

[Roy Smith]

Kyler Laird > wrote:
> I think it was a decent guess. The point I was trying to address was the
> "seemed quite reasonable" part. If you think it's reasonable that they're
> searching cars, what *reasonable* thing do you expect them to do when they
> find something interesting?

Yes, I think it's reasonable. It's already been demonstrated that
terrorists can and will hijack jet airplanes to use them as weapons. As
we crack down on security around scheduled airlines, they will look to
other avenues to obtain these weapons. I'm not talking stealing a 172
from Podunk Municipal, I'm talking stealing one of the 737's parked on
the GA ramp at Westchester.

I don't consider looking in my trunk to be a major imposition. They
didn't delay me significantly and they didn't damage my vehicle. They
didn't pat me down, they didn't ask me to take my shoes off, they didn't
even ask me to get out of the car. All in all, it was a lot less of a
hassle than what I go through when I check in for a commercial airline
flight.

If you're looking for violations of civil rights, don't look for private
plane owners being delayed for one minute and asked to open the trunks
of their cars when they drive into the airport. Look for people being
held in jails with no access to legal representation and no due process.

[Roy Smith]

In article m>,
"Dave Stadt" > wrote:

> "Roy Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article m>,
> > "Dave Stadt" > wrote:
> >
> > > "Roy Smith" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > In article >,
> > > > Kyler Laird > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Roy Smith > writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > >There's a
> > > > > >lot of stuff that's been done lately in the name of national
> security
> > > > > >which I strongly disagree with, but this seemed quite reasonable
> and
> > > > > >appropriate to me, especially given the easy access to heavy metal
> on
> > > > > >the GA ramp.
> > > > >
> > > > > So...what would they have done if they discovered a bunch of
> maintenance
> > > > > tools and firearms in your trunk? Escort you to your plane?
> > > > >
> > > > > --kyler
> > > >
> > > > I assume I would have found out what the business end of an M-16
> looked
> > > > like and at the very least gotten to answer a lot of pointed
> questions.
> > > > And I probably wouldn't be sitting here in my living room today typing
> > > > this.
> > >
> > > Maintenance tools and firearms locked in a trunk are illegal where you
> live?
> > >
> > >
> >
> > No, they're not. But you asked me what they would have done if they
> > found them in my trunk, and I gave you my best guess.
> >
> > What would you expect would happen?
>
> I would expect them to say have a nice day, apologize for delaying you and
> let you go about your business. Anything less would be unreasonable,
> intolerable and unacceptable.

No, that's what you would LIKE to happen. Perhaps it's even what you
think SHOULD happen. If you honestly EXPECT that it would happen,
you're not being realistic.

[Kyler Laird]

Roy Smith > writes:

>I don't consider looking in my trunk to be a major imposition.

But you still haven't said what you would have them do if they found
something reasonable and legal such as tools and firearms in there.

--kyler

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
Kyler Laird > wrote:

> Roy Smith > writes:
>
> >I don't consider looking in my trunk to be a major imposition.
>
> But you still haven't said what you would have them do if they found
> something reasonable and legal such as tools and firearms in there.
>
> --kyler

Nobody ever asked me that, they only asked me what I expected would
happen :-)

I assume for the sake of argument that we're talking about some kind of
firearm which is legal for me to have without a permit, say a rifle or
shotgun such as might be used for hunting or target shooting? I suspect
you think the appropriate response would be for the conversation to go
something like this:

"Sir, may I ask why you have a shotgun in the trunk?"

"I'm taking it with me on a hunting trip"

"Very good, Sir. You may proceed, have a good afternoon, Sir."

In the current state of alert, at an airport with scheduled airline
traffic and heavy metal sitting out on the GA ramp that I can walk right
up to, that's a fantasy. You might as well expect the guard to say,
"These are not the droids we're looking for".

I understand that it's legal for me to have a shotgun in my trunk. And
that it's legal for me to do so without a permit or license. And that
the second ammendment to the US Constitution guarantees me the right.
And that's it's legal for me to own an airplane, and to park that
airplane at HPN, and to use that airplane to transport myself and my
shotgun anywhere I please without asking permission or filing a flight
plan or anything. And it's wonderful that both of us have those rights.

But, it sure does make me feel a little bit safer knowing that if
somebody tries to steal a 737 from the ramp at HPN so they can dive-bomb
it into the Indian Point nuclear power plant all of about 5 minutes from
the end of the runway (or the Kensico Dam, about 1 minute away), there's
a guy with an M-16 out there on the access road asking questions.

Mostly it's showing the flag. If you want to catch criminals, you hide
in the bushes with a camera and keep silent. If you want to scare them
away, you stand in the middle of the road waving an M-16 around and
making a big show of being there.

Ok, I answered your question, now you get to answer mine. If you're so
worked up about them asking to look in my trunk, how do you feel about
people being kept in prisons with no due process and no access to legal
representation? It seems like that's the kind of thing we should be
worked up about. But maybe they're not the kind of people we get worked
up about?

[Dave Stadt]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article m>,
> "Dave Stadt" > wrote:
>
> > "Roy Smith" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > In article m>,
> > > "Dave Stadt" > wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Roy Smith" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > In article >,
> > > > > Kyler Laird > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Roy Smith > writes:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >There's a
> > > > > > >lot of stuff that's been done lately in the name of national
> > security
> > > > > > >which I strongly disagree with, but this seemed quite
reasonable
> > and
> > > > > > >appropriate to me, especially given the easy access to heavy
metal
> > on
> > > > > > >the GA ramp.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So...what would they have done if they discovered a bunch of
> > maintenance
> > > > > > tools and firearms in your trunk? Escort you to your plane?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --kyler
> > > > >
> > > > > I assume I would have found out what the business end of an M-16
> > looked
> > > > > like and at the very least gotten to answer a lot of pointed
> > questions.
> > > > > And I probably wouldn't be sitting here in my living room today
typing
> > > > > this.
> > > >
> > > > Maintenance tools and firearms locked in a trunk are illegal where
you
> > live?
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > No, they're not. But you asked me what they would have done if they
> > > found them in my trunk, and I gave you my best guess.
> > >
> > > What would you expect would happen?
> >
> > I would expect them to say have a nice day, apologize for delaying you
and
> > let you go about your business. Anything less would be unreasonable,
> > intolerable and unacceptable.
>
> No, that's what you would LIKE to happen. Perhaps it's even what you
> think SHOULD happen. If you honestly EXPECT that it would happen,
> you're not being realistic.

If I did nothing wrong why are my expectations not reasonable? In one of
your posts you alluded to the fact that if you had tools and a legal weapon
in your trunk you thought it reasonable for you to be held at gun point and
detained. I find that kind of thinking very sad and it certainly leads one
to believe the terrorist have won.

[Dave Stadt]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Kyler Laird > wrote:
>
> > Roy Smith > writes:
> >
> > >I don't consider looking in my trunk to be a major imposition.
> >
> > But you still haven't said what you would have them do if they found
> > something reasonable and legal such as tools and firearms in there.
> >
> > --kyler
>
> Nobody ever asked me that, they only asked me what I expected would
> happen :-)
>
> I assume for the sake of argument that we're talking about some kind of
> firearm which is legal for me to have without a permit, say a rifle or
> shotgun such as might be used for hunting or target shooting? I suspect
> you think the appropriate response would be for the conversation to go
> something like this:
>
> "Sir, may I ask why you have a shotgun in the trunk?"
>
> "I'm taking it with me on a hunting trip"
>
> "Very good, Sir. You may proceed, have a good afternoon, Sir."
>
> In the current state of alert, at an airport with scheduled airline
> traffic and heavy metal sitting out on the GA ramp that I can walk right
> up to, that's a fantasy. You might as well expect the guard to say,
> "These are not the droids we're looking for".
>
> I understand that it's legal for me to have a shotgun in my trunk. And
> that it's legal for me to do so without a permit or license. And that
> the second ammendment to the US Constitution guarantees me the right.
> And that's it's legal for me to own an airplane, and to park that
> airplane at HPN, and to use that airplane to transport myself and my
> shotgun anywhere I please without asking permission or filing a flight
> plan or anything. And it's wonderful that both of us have those rights.
>
> But, it sure does make me feel a little bit safer knowing that if
> somebody tries to steal a 737 from the ramp at HPN so they can dive-bomb
> it into the Indian Point nuclear power plant all of about 5 minutes from
> the end of the runway (or the Kensico Dam, about 1 minute away), there's
> a guy with an M-16 out there on the access road asking questions.
>
> Mostly it's showing the flag. If you want to catch criminals, you hide
> in the bushes with a camera and keep silent. If you want to scare them
> away, you stand in the middle of the road waving an M-16 around and
> making a big show of being there.

Osama 1 Roy Smith 0



> Ok, I answered your question, now you get to answer mine. If you're so
> worked up about them asking to look in my trunk, how do you feel about
> people being kept in prisons with no due process and no access to legal
> representation? It seems like that's the kind of thing we should be
> worked up about. But maybe they're not the kind of people we get worked
> up about?

[Stu Gotts]

On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 02:12:11 GMT, Kyler Laird >
wrote:

>Roy Smith > writes:
>
>>I don't consider looking in my trunk to be a major imposition.

That's the start of it. They'll be asking you to step out while they
look under your seats next. If you've ****ed the right person off
because of your beliefs or utilizing the freedoms our forefathers
fought so hard to give and preserve, they'll ask you where you
got the drugs or guns. Don't think it can't happen.

>But you still haven't said what you would have them do if they found
>something reasonable and legal such as tools and firearms in there.
>
>--kyler

[EDR]

In article >, Roy Smith
> wrote:

> Ok, I answered your question, now you get to answer mine. If you're so
> worked up about them asking to look in my trunk, how do you feel about
> people being kept in prisons with no due process and no access to legal
> representation? It seems like that's the kind of thing we should be
> worked up about. But maybe they're not the kind of people we get worked
> up about?

Different laws for combatants from a war zone.
It depends on the circumstances under which they were apprehended and
what activities they were involved in.
American citizen vice illegal alien.
These are different times. The difficulty is telling the good guys from
the bad guys. The tactics in use to extract information require time,
the information extracted must be verified, etc. The enemy we now face
is patient and uses time to their advantage. The old days of set piece
warfare are over. This enemy is not a physical state, but a state of
mind.

[Michael Houghton]

Howdy!

In article >,
EDR > wrote:
>In article >, Roy Smith
> wrote:
>
>> Ok, I answered your question, now you get to answer mine. If you're so
>> worked up about them asking to look in my trunk, how do you feel about
>> people being kept in prisons with no due process and no access to legal
>> representation? It seems like that's the kind of thing we should be
>> worked up about. But maybe they're not the kind of people we get worked
>> up about?
>
>Different laws for combatants from a war zone.

That doesn't describe everyone imprisoned without access to counsel, etc.

Of course Congress is sitting on its collective hands so firmly that they
are brown to the elbows instead of attempting to craft a legislative
approach that clarifies how it should work instead of leaving it up to
the courts to (effectively) legislate.

>It depends on the circumstances under which they were apprehended and
>what activities they were involved in.
>American citizen vice illegal alien.

The current administration seems to think that citizenship is irrelevant,
even if apprehended on US soil.

>These are different times. The difficulty is telling the good guys from
>the bad guys. The tactics in use to extract information require time,
>the information extracted must be verified, etc. The enemy we now face
>is patient and uses time to their advantage. The old days of set piece
>warfare are over. This enemy is not a physical state, but a state of
>mind.

....and those who would sacrifice essential liberty for temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety...

yours,
Michael
--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

[Michael Houghton]

Howdy!

In article m>,
Dave Stadt > wrote:
>
>"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
>> In article m>,
>> "Dave Stadt" > wrote:
>>
>> > "Roy Smith" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> > > In article m>,
>> > > "Dave Stadt" > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > "Roy Smith" > wrote in message
>> > > > ...
>> > > > > In article >,
>> > > > > Kyler Laird > wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > Roy Smith > writes:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > >There's a
>> > > > > > >lot of stuff that's been done lately in the name of national
>> > security
>> > > > > > >which I strongly disagree with, but this seemed quite
>reasonable
>> > and
>> > > > > > >appropriate to me, especially given the easy access to heavy
>metal
>> > on
>> > > > > > >the GA ramp.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > So...what would they have done if they discovered a bunch of
>> > maintenance
>> > > > > > tools and firearms in your trunk? Escort you to your plane?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > --kyler
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I assume I would have found out what the business end of an M-16
>> > looked
>> > > > > like and at the very least gotten to answer a lot of pointed
>> > questions.
>> > > > > And I probably wouldn't be sitting here in my living room today
>typing
>> > > > > this.
>> > > >
>> > > > Maintenance tools and firearms locked in a trunk are illegal where
>you
>> > live?
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > No, they're not. But you asked me what they would have done if they
>> > > found them in my trunk, and I gave you my best guess.
>> > >
>> > > What would you expect would happen?
>> >
>> > I would expect them to say have a nice day, apologize for delaying you
>and
>> > let you go about your business. Anything less would be unreasonable,
>> > intolerable and unacceptable.
>>
>> No, that's what you would LIKE to happen. Perhaps it's even what you
>> think SHOULD happen. If you honestly EXPECT that it would happen,
>> you're not being realistic.
>
>If I did nothing wrong why are my expectations not reasonable? In one of

Your expectation is perfectly reasonable. You just have to be prepared for
disappointment. I expect people to be honest and decent. I expect people
to take responsibility for their actions. Is that unreasonable? Is that
expectation subject to frequent disappointment?

>your posts you alluded to the fact that if you had tools and a legal weapon
>in your trunk you thought it reasonable for you to be held at gun point and

He said no such thing (as you can see by examining the quoted material
above which includes that hypothesis). That he would expect to see the
business end of the gun does not mean he takes that to be _reasonable_.

>detained. I find that kind of thinking very sad and it certainly leads one
>to believe the terrorist have won.
>
yours,
Michael
--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/