Why don't airlines also do charter jets?

[Scott T. Jensen]

This evening, I watched a documentary on TV about the rise of private jets.
During it, they talked about the rise of charter jet companies. These being
companies from whom you can charter a private jet from a one-time use to
something along the lines of a time-share. Anyway, what struck me odd was
that no airline company ... not even small ones ... are in the private jet
charter business. I've seen other TV programs about private jets or where
they're at least talked about for a bit and none of these ever mentioned
airlines getting into the charter jet business ... or even why they're not
in them. Why aren't they?

To me it would seem to be a logical side division for the airlines to get
into. I'd just treat it as one step up from first class seats. Coach >
Business > First Class > Private Jet. Additionally, they could possibly
take advantage of the quantity discount they get on jet fuel for these
private jets.

Or are they currently in this business and the programs I've been catching
either didn't think it was important enough to mention or didn't know this?

Or are the airlines prohibited from going into the charter jet business by
the FAA?

Or is charter jets nothing like airlines so there could be no synergy
savings?

Or is the charter jet business so much of a roller-coaster type of a
business sector that it would lose the airlines money?

If no airline currently is in the charter jet business, have they ever even
given it a try? If so, I'd enjoy hearing how it went and why they left it.

Thanks in advance!

Scott Jensen
--
Peer-to-peer networking (a.k.a. file-sharing) is entertainment's future.
If you'd like to know why, read the white paper at the link below.
http://www.nonesuch.org/p2prevolution.pdf

[Jordan]

On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 01:23:44 -0600, "Scott T. Jensen" >
wrote:

>This evening, I watched a documentary on TV about the rise of private jets.
>During it, they talked about the rise of charter jet companies. These being
>companies from whom you can charter a private jet from a one-time use to
>something along the lines of a time-share. Anyway, what struck me odd was
>that no airline company ... not even small ones ... are in the private jet
>charter business. I've seen other TV programs about private jets or where
>they're at least talked about for a bit and none of these ever mentioned
>airlines getting into the charter jet business ... or even why they're not
>in them. Why aren't they?
>
>To me it would seem to be a logical side division for the airlines to get
>into. I'd just treat it as one step up from first class seats. Coach >
>Business > First Class > Private Jet. Additionally, they could possibly
>take advantage of the quantity discount they get on jet fuel for these
>private jets.
>
>Or are they currently in this business and the programs I've been catching
>either didn't think it was important enough to mention or didn't know this?
>
>Or are the airlines prohibited from going into the charter jet business by
>the FAA?
>
>Or is charter jets nothing like airlines so there could be no synergy
>savings?
>
>Or is the charter jet business so much of a roller-coaster type of a
>business sector that it would lose the airlines money?
>
>If no airline currently is in the charter jet business, have they ever even
>given it a try? If so, I'd enjoy hearing how it went and why they left it.
>
>Thanks in advance!
>
>Scott Jensen

In Canada, Westjet and Skyservice run charters to seasonal
destinations around the Carribean, Cuba, Vegas etc. I'm sure any
airline would let you have the run of any aircraft for the right
price.

The luxury configuration and flexibility of companies like NetJets and
Flexjet are what make them attractive. With a timeshare you need only
give 24 hrs notice and they'll bring you a jet capable of taking you
wherever in the world you want to go. Airlines can't meet this level
of service/price.

[James Robinson]

"Scott T. Jensen" wrote:
>
> Or are they currently in this business and the programs I've been catching
> either didn't think it was important enough to mention or didn't know this?

The programs just didn't mention the service. The airlines will all
charter a full size jet to anybody with the necessary cash, and many are
in the business jet market. Here is a link to Delta's charter division,
as an example:

http://www.airelite.com/

[James Robinson]

James Robinson wrote:
>
> "Scott T. Jensen" wrote:
> >
> > Or are they currently in this business and the programs I've been catching
> > either didn't think it was important enough to mention or didn't know this?
>
> The programs just didn't mention the service. The airlines will all
> charter a full size jet to anybody with the necessary cash, and many are
> in the business jet market. Here is a link to Delta's charter division,
> as an example:
>
> http://www.airelite.com/

I should also have mentioned that when United set up its charter jet
division, there was a huge amount of criticism about the money that was
spent on purchasing the new aircraft, when the main carrier was in such
financial trouble. Here is an article that was written when they
announced the new division:

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0VOU/8_304/76759296/p1/article.jhtml

[David Cartwright]

"Scott T. Jensen" > wrote in message
...
> Anyway, what struck me odd was
> that no airline company ... not even small ones ... are in the private jet
> charter business. I've seen other TV programs about private jets or where
> they're at least talked about for a bit and none of these ever mentioned
> airlines getting into the charter jet business ... or even why they're not
> in them. Why aren't they?

I guess the main issue is that airlines exist to fly people to and from
places, not to rent aeroplanes and crew to other companies, and to move away
from one's core business is often a bad move. Your average airline will have
purchased or leased only as many aircraft as it requires to fill its
services, because to have aircraft sitting on the ground waiting for charter
rentals to come along is bad economics - if you're running your airline at
all well, you shouldn't have any "spare" aircraft available for charter.

If you're going to run a charter operation you need to aim high. You can't
get by with one or two aircraft available infrequently, because your clients
will want to be able to rely on aircraft supply to a reasonable extent. But
you can't keep aircraft hanging about just in case they're needed, as this
incurs maintenance and hangarage costs. Okay, you'll have some customers who
give you regular bookings, but even if you manage to land a regular
two-flights-a-week contract from, say, London to Majorca, this may become
only one flight a week in the winter, and you're stuck with an aircraft
that's not being used. The economics start to become attractive when you
have a decent size pool of aircraft serving a healthy collection of clients
in a variety of markets (so that the same hardware and personnel can be used
by a number of different people serving different markets, and thus be
required by each at a different time of year).

This said, I can think of at least one example of a large airline making
money from charters on its aircraft: British Airways used to rent out its
Concordes and crews to charter companies. Concorde was, however, an
exception to the rule of aircraft inventories - BA was stuck with a handful
of Concordes, and it made sense to charter them out instead of having them
sitting in hangars costing money to maintain.

Dave

[Mike Cordelli]

Airlines do charter jets all the time, and some are in the luxury private
type jet charters.



"Scott T. Jensen" > wrote in message
...
> This evening, I watched a documentary on TV about the rise of private
jets.
> During it, they talked about the rise of charter jet companies. These
being
> companies from whom you can charter a private jet from a one-time use to
> something along the lines of a time-share. Anyway, what struck me odd was
> that no airline company ... not even small ones ... are in the private jet
> charter business. I've seen other TV programs about private jets or where
> they're at least talked about for a bit and none of these ever mentioned
> airlines getting into the charter jet business ... or even why they're not
> in them. Why aren't they?
>
> To me it would seem to be a logical side division for the airlines to get
> into. I'd just treat it as one step up from first class seats. Coach >
> Business > First Class > Private Jet. Additionally, they could possibly
> take advantage of the quantity discount they get on jet fuel for these
> private jets.
>
> Or are they currently in this business and the programs I've been catching
> either didn't think it was important enough to mention or didn't know
this?
>
> Or are the airlines prohibited from going into the charter jet business by
> the FAA?
>
> Or is charter jets nothing like airlines so there could be no synergy
> savings?
>
> Or is the charter jet business so much of a roller-coaster type of a
> business sector that it would lose the airlines money?
>
> If no airline currently is in the charter jet business, have they ever
even
> given it a try? If so, I'd enjoy hearing how it went and why they left
it.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Scott Jensen
> --
> Peer-to-peer networking (a.k.a. file-sharing) is entertainment's future.
> If you'd like to know why, read the white paper at the link below.
> http://www.nonesuch.org/p2prevolution.pdf
>
>

[Ron Natalie]

"Scott T. Jensen" > wrote in message ...
> Anyway, what struck me odd was
> that no airline company ... not even small ones ... are in the private jet
> charter business.

Some have in the past for the larger aircraft. For a while, Presidential airlines was staying
in business flying charters for democratic candidates in the primaries.

[Robert Moore]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote
> Some have in the past for the larger aircraft.
> For a while, Presidential airlines was staying
> in business flying charters for democratic
> candidates in the primaries.

When I joined PanAm in 1967, in addition to being the world's
largest international aircarrier, it was also the world's
largest charter aircarrier and the world's largest cargo air-
carrier. The 30 B-707 freighters were sold when the B-747s
arrived starting in 1970. The theory being that in addition
to a full load of passengers, the 747 belly would hold a load
of cargo equivalent to a 707. Unfortunately, the companies
that bought the freighters could afford to fly freight much
cheaper than could PanAm. The Teamster cargo handlers at JFK
didn't help the situation either, they stole at least 10% of
everything that passed through the JFK cargo terminal.

One of our "standing" charters was flying the presidential press
corp when they followed the president. We had about a dozen
selected flight attendants just for those flights.

During the three times that I was furloughed from PanAm, I flew
for half-a-dozen charter airlines that had bought the same 707s
that I had been flying at PanAm. Their cost was about half of
that at PanAm.....unions and all of that sort of stuff.

It just wasn't in PanAm's corporate structure to forsee that in
the future, cargo and low-cost travel would dominate.

Bob Moore
PanAm (retired)

[Scott T. Jensen]

"James Robinson" > wrote:
> James Robinson wrote:
> > "Scott T. Jensen" wrote:
> > > Or are they currently in this business and the programs I've
> > > been catching either didn't think it was important enough to
> > > mention or didn't know this?
> >
> > The programs just didn't mention the service. The airlines will
> > all charter a full size jet to anybody with the necessary cash,
> > and many are in the business jet market. Here is a link to
> > Delta's charter division, as an example:
> >
> > http://www.airelite.com/

Thanks for the information.

> I should also have mentioned that when United set up its charter
> jet division, there was a huge amount of criticism about the money
> that was spent on purchasing the new aircraft, when the main
> carrier was in such financial trouble.

I looked all over the United Airline website and found nothing that linked
to their private jet charter business. In doing a Google search on this, I
only found news articles about the service but no website for it. Has
United's charter business since been cancelled?

Scott Jensen
--
Like a cure for A.I.D.S., Alzheimer, Parkinson, & Mad Cow Disease?
Volunteer your computer for folding-protein research for when it's idle.
Go to http://www.distributedfolding.org/ to sign up your computer.

[Ron Natalie]

"Robert Moore" > wrote in message . 6...
> The Teamster cargo handlers at JFK
> didn't help the situation either, they stole at least 10% of
> everything that passed through the JFK cargo terminal.

Wasn't just the teamsters. Ever read Harry Hill's books. The mob
used JFK as their personal one-stop shopping for larceny.

> It just wasn't in PanAm's corporate structure to forsee that in
> the future, cargo and low-cost travel would dominate.

Yep, I was a Pan Am traveler in the 70's. Old flight 101 from NY
to Rio and a 707 three stopper from Nairobi back to NY (20 hours
I think, longest flight I've ever been on).

My father was counsel to Martin Shugrue in the Eastern bankruptcy
days and I believe in the "new Pan Am" days as well.

[Robert Moore]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote

> Wasn't just the teamsters. Ever read Harry Hill's books. The mob
> used JFK as their personal one-stop shopping for larceny.

I thought that they were one-and-the-same. :-)

> My father was counsel to Martin Shugrue in the Eastern bankruptcy
> days and I believe in the "new Pan Am" days as well.

Marty was an acquaintence of mine, perhaps just a little bit lower
on the pilot's seniority list than I was. An ex-marine aviator as
I recall. During the furloughs, I went off flying and chief-piloting
at Air Florida, Arrow Air, etc. while Marty hired into an office-boy
job in PanAm operations and from there, worked up to be president of
PanAm.
He passed away a few years back....was much younger than I.

Bob Moore

[Ron Natalie]

"Robert Moore" > wrote in message . 6...

> He passed away a few years back....was much younger than I.
>
Being at the helm of a couple of sinking ships can wear you down
pretty hard. You might find Jack E. Robinson's book on the collapse
of Eastern interesting reading.

[Larry Fransson]

United started getting into the fractional ownership business a couple of
years ago. They ordered a number of Dassault Falcons and had even started
hiring pilots, if I remember correctly. I know a couple of people who were
interested in working there. The company was called Avolar.

United's timing was really bad. They were doing this at a time when the
company was in really bad shape financially. The unions also made it
pretty difficult. United wanted to keep the pilot pools separated, which
would probably keep costs down because those pilots and flight attendants
would likely have been paid significantly less than United pilots and
flight attendants. The unions insisted that the aircraft be crewed by
United pilots and flight attendants.

Avolar is no more, although United still owns the avolar.com domain. They
used to have a web site, but that domain now points to united.com.

--
Larry Fransson
Seattle, WA

[Ron Parsons]

In article >,
Robert Moore > wrote:

>When I joined PanAm in 1967, in addition to being the world's
>largest international aircarrier, it was also the world's
>largest charter aircarrier and the world's largest cargo air-
>carrier. The 30 B-707 freighters were sold when the B-747s
>arrived starting in 1970. The theory being that in addition
>to a full load of passengers, the 747 belly would hold a load
>of cargo equivalent to a 707. Unfortunately, the companies
>that bought the freighters could afford to fly freight much
>cheaper than could PanAm. The Teamster cargo handlers at JFK
>didn't help the situation either, they stole at least 10% of
>everything that passed through the JFK cargo terminal.
>
>One of our "standing" charters was flying the presidential press
>corp when they followed the president. We had about a dozen
>selected flight attendants just for those flights.

Pretty much the same at AAL too. There was a 727 dedicated to the
campaign of RFK for months until he was killed. Guess who never got paid.

The JFK situation was the same for AAL.

Back in those days, a charter was considered an exception to the closed
cockpit door rules and it was left open the whole time.

Sports charters were and are common. Sometimes a random crew, other
times a dedicated crew.

--
Ron

[Z Sten]

Scott T. Jensen wrote:
> This evening, I watched a documentary on TV about the rise of private jets.
> During it, they talked about the rise of charter jet companies. These being
> companies from whom you can charter a private jet from a one-time use to
> something along the lines of a time-share. Anyway, what struck me odd was
> that no airline company ... not even small ones ... are in the private jet
> charter business. I've seen other TV programs about private jets or where
> they're at least talked about for a bit and none of these ever mentioned
> airlines getting into the charter jet business ... or even why they're not
> in them. Why aren't they?
>
> To me it would seem to be a logical side division for the airlines to get
> into. I'd just treat it as one step up from first class seats. Coach >
> Business > First Class > Private Jet. Additionally, they could possibly
> take advantage of the quantity discount they get on jet fuel for these
> private jets.
>
> Or are they currently in this business and the programs I've been catching
> either didn't think it was important enough to mention or didn't know this?
>
> Or are the airlines prohibited from going into the charter jet business by
> the FAA?
>
> Or is charter jets nothing like airlines so there could be no synergy
> savings?
>
> Or is the charter jet business so much of a roller-coaster type of a
> business sector that it would lose the airlines money?
>
> If no airline currently is in the charter jet business, have they ever even
> given it a try? If so, I'd enjoy hearing how it went and why they left it.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Scott Jensen

Northwest does do charter services. My wife runs a string orchestra
program for gifted Middle School age children. We will be chartering a
Northwest B757 to travel from MDT to MSP to take 160 students and adult
chaperones for a performance at the Music Educators National Conference
in April. As it happens one of the dads flys for Northwest and will be
flying our charter. Kinda cool. This ASEL PP will even be allowed to
jump seat in the cockpit.

Arnold Sten

[Simon]

Airlines with large aircraft operating under 14 CFR 121 operate in three
arenas. Domestic, Flag, and Supplemental. Supplemental is the FAR 121
equivalent of charter. Operators of smaller aircraft operating under 14 CFR
135 tend to be either scheduled or on demand. On demand is charter.

All the other points in this thread are valid. Specialization tends to be
more rewarding than being generalized. The frenzy of the 70s and 80s to have
companies do everything for everyone didn't achieve much general benefit to
those companies nor the consumers, and those companies have spent the last
10 years divesting themselves of those acquisitions.

Simon

[EDR]

You don't even want to begin comparing the level of customer service at
an airline to a charter provider. If charters treated their customers
the way airlines do, the charter would be in business long.

[James Robinson]

EDR wrote:
>
> You don't even want to begin comparing the level of customer service at
> an airline to a charter provider. If charters treated their customers
> the way airlines do, the charter would be in business long.

All you have to do is pay to fly first class on the airline. They
generally trip over themselves to be nice to you. It's all about money.

[old man]

Where I am , the teams visiting the Patriots or visa versa fly out of
Providence and always use one of the major carriers.
We like it when they use our Airline, because they always have the best food
, that's never touched.Downside is they are the biggest slobs.


Now for my plug.......free classifieds at http://www.newbid.net/index.asp
"Scott T. Jensen" > wrote in message
...
> This evening, I watched a documentary on TV about the rise of private
jets.
> During it, they talked about the rise of charter jet companies. These
being
> companies from whom you can charter a private jet from a one-time use to
> something along the lines of a time-share. Anyway, what struck me odd was
> that no airline company ... not even small ones ... are in the private jet
> charter business. I've seen other TV programs about private jets or where
> they're at least talked about for a bit and none of these ever mentioned
> airlines getting into the charter jet business ... or even why they're not
> in them. Why aren't they?
>
> To me it would seem to be a logical side division for the airlines to get
> into. I'd just treat it as one step up from first class seats. Coach >
> Business > First Class > Private Jet. Additionally, they could possibly
> take advantage of the quantity discount they get on jet fuel for these
> private jets.
>
> Or are they currently in this business and the programs I've been catching
> either didn't think it was important enough to mention or didn't know
this?
>
> Or are the airlines prohibited from going into the charter jet business by
> the FAA?
>
> Or is charter jets nothing like airlines so there could be no synergy
> savings?
>
> Or is the charter jet business so much of a roller-coaster type of a
> business sector that it would lose the airlines money?
>
> If no airline currently is in the charter jet business, have they ever
even
> given it a try? If so, I'd enjoy hearing how it went and why they left
it.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Scott Jensen
> --
> Peer-to-peer networking (a.k.a. file-sharing) is entertainment's future.
> If you'd like to know why, read the white paper at the link below.
> http://www.nonesuch.org/p2prevolution.pdf
>
>