Plane with no stall warning device?

[Roy Smith]

Researching a question from a club member, I read in the FAR's:

§**23.207 *Stall warning.
[...]
(b) The stall warning may be furnished either through the inherent
aerodynamic qualities of the airplane or by a device that will give
clearly distinguishable indications under expected conditions of flight.

Every plane I've ever flown has a mechanical stall warning device (some
visual, some aural), but apparantly it's possible to certify a plane
without one. Does anybody know of any real life examples of planes
certified without stall warning devices?

[mikem]

Roy Smith wrote:
> Researching a question from a club member, I read in the FAR's:
>
> § 23.207 Stall warning.
> [...]
> (b) The stall warning may be furnished either through the inherent
> aerodynamic qualities of the airplane or by a device that will give
> clearly distinguishable indications under expected conditions of flight.
>
> Every plane I've ever flown has a mechanical stall warning device (some
> visual, some aural), but apparantly it's possible to certify a plane
> without one. Does anybody know of any real life examples of planes
> certified without stall warning devices?

Roy,

I own a Piper Pacer (PA22/20, Tripacer converted to Tailwheel
configuration) It was originally built by Piper in 1958 (fairly late
model as TriPacers go). It has no stall warning vane/switch/horn/light,
and never had one. None of the PA12/14/20/22 series do. Dunno about
PA18.

This one has STCed add-on very droopy wingtips (inverted winglet). The
stall is very benign. Prestall indication is a slight buffet, followed
by the nose dropping (assuming you keep the yoke full back, i.e. you
are not proactively helping it recover), followed by self recovery as
a slight dive, followed by the nose going back up again for another
mini-stall... Sort of a "nodding" motion.

btw- the stall occurs at an indicated airspeed of ~45mph...

MikeM
PA22/20 Pacer '00Z see
http://home.utah.edu/~mgm17160/Island/flying.jpg

[Ron Natalie]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message ...

>
> Every plane I've ever flown has a mechanical stall warning device (some
> visual, some aural), but apparantly it's possible to certify a plane
> without one. Does anybody know of any real life examples of planes
> certified without stall warning devices?

Navions don't have one. I believe it's optional on Maules.

[Mike O'Malley]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Researching a question from a club member, I read in the FAR's:
>
> § 23.207 Stall warning.
> [...]
> (b) The stall warning may be furnished either through the inherent
> aerodynamic qualities of the airplane or by a device that will give
> clearly distinguishable indications under expected conditions of flight.
>
> Every plane I've ever flown has a mechanical stall warning device (some
> visual, some aural), but apparantly it's possible to certify a plane
> without one. Does anybody know of any real life examples of planes
> certified without stall warning devices?

Planes I've flown without stall warning devices:
Bellanca 7ECA Citabria
Piper J3 Cub
Piper PA11 Cub
Piper PA12 Super Cruiser
Piper PA18 Super Cub

Many older aircraft do not have them, heck, the stall horn in a C172
startled me for a second after flying rag wing Pipers for a few hundred
hours...

--
Mike

[Don Tuite]

Add my Taylorcraft BC12D. But most of these were CAA.

Don

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
"Ron Natalie" > wrote:

> Navions don't have one. I believe it's optional on Maules.

Are these CAR-3 or a FAR-23?

Now that I think about it, I've flown a Decathlon. I honestly don't
remember if it had a stall warning or not. My recollection is you knew
you were stalled when you saw the ground going round-and-round :-)

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
Roy Smith > wrote:

> Researching a question from a club member, I read in the FAR's:
>
> §**23.207 *Stall warning.
> [...]
> (b) The stall warning may be furnished either through the inherent
> aerodynamic qualities of the airplane or by a device that will give
> clearly distinguishable indications under expected conditions of flight.
>
> Every plane I've ever flown has a mechanical stall warning device (some
> visual, some aural), but apparantly it's possible to certify a plane
> without one. Does anybody know of any real life examples of planes
> certified without stall warning devices?

My Johnson Rocket has no stall warning devise, nor stall strips, yet it
gives a nice, straight-ahead stall, with plenty of warning, and was a
real hot rod by 1946 standards.

[Marty Shapiro]

Roy Smith > wrote in news:roy-
:

> Researching a question from a club member, I read in the FAR's:
>
> §**23.207 *Stall warning.
> [...]
> (b) The stall warning may be furnished either through the inherent
> aerodynamic qualities of the airplane or by a device that will give
> clearly distinguishable indications under expected conditions of flight.
>
> Every plane I've ever flown has a mechanical stall warning device (some
> visual, some aural), but apparantly it's possible to certify a plane
> without one. Does anybody know of any real life examples of planes
> certified without stall warning devices?

The SOCATA Rallye does NOT have a stall warning device!

It has automatic leading edge slats which will pop out at larger angels of
attack, but you are still well above stall.

A power off stall is very interesting in this aircraft. You start to get
stall buffett and, if you simply hold the yoke all the way back, you
descend a little over 1000 fpm with the nose level on the horizon. You can
turn with just the ailerons as you are descending.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Don Tuite]

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 03:49:16 -0000, Marty Shapiro
> wrote:

>The SOCATA Rallye does NOT have a stall warning device!
>
>It has automatic leading edge slats which will pop out at larger angels of
>attack, but you are still well above stall.
>
>A power off stall is very interesting in this aircraft. You start to get
>stall buffett and, if you simply hold the yoke all the way back, you
>descend a little over 1000 fpm with the nose level on the horizon. You can
>turn with just the ailerons as you are descending.

What happens if you yank the sitck back?

Or if you start to apply rudder to accelerate a turn and then apply
opposite aileron to keep from banking too steeply and just keep on
crossing the controls while you bleed off airspeed?

Just curious. I'm sure the results in the Socata are benign.

Don

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> Researching a question from a club member, I read in the FAR's:
>
> § 23.207 Stall warning.
> [...]
> (b) The stall warning may be furnished either through the inherent
> aerodynamic qualities of the airplane or by a device that will give
> clearly distinguishable indications under expected conditions of flight.
>
> Every plane I've ever flown has a mechanical stall warning device (some
> visual, some aural), but apparantly it's possible to certify a plane
> without one. Does anybody know of any real life examples of planes
> certified without stall warning devices?
>

My Aeronca 7AC has no mechanical stall warning device. Few aircraft of that
vintage do.

[JDMX5er]

In article >, Roy Smith
> writes:

>Every plane I've ever flown has a mechanical stall warning device (some
>visual, some aural), but apparantly it's possible to certify a plane
>without one. Does anybody know of any real life examples of planes
>certified without stall warning devices?
>

The IAI 1124 Westwind jet I fly does not have any stall warning devices
installed. I have not taken it to a full stall and break, but it does give
plenty of warning, via buffeting, of an impending stall.

G. Lee
(If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If it ain't fixed, don't fly it.)

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 04:21:48 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
>> Every plane I've ever flown has a mechanical stall warning device (some
>> visual, some aural), but apparantly it's possible to certify a plane
>> without one. Does anybody know of any real life examples of planes
>> certified without stall warning devices?
>>
>
>My Aeronca 7AC has no mechanical stall warning device. Few aircraft of that
>vintage do.

The Citabria I learned to fly on (7ECA) was licensed under the same
certificate as the 7AC, and it didn't have a stall warning device.

They are certified, of course, but very few of the 25,000 homebuilts in the
US have mechanical stall warning systems. Of course, the bracing wires of
my Fly Baby sing "Nearer My God to Thee" when I get too slow.... :-)

Ron Wanttaja

[Mackfly]

> Does anybody know of any real life examples of planes
>certified without stall warning devices?

Aeronca Champ 7CCM---so much as they are not "airplanes" I've not yet seen a
sailplane with a stall warning device. Funny, considering how much time we
spend banked to 45 degrees or more just above stall. Oh that's right, we
become "one" with the plane, don't need no stinken stall warning. Mac

[Marty Shapiro]

Don Tuite > wrote in
:

> On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 03:49:16 -0000, Marty Shapiro
> > wrote:
>
>>The SOCATA Rallye does NOT have a stall warning device!
>>
>>It has automatic leading edge slats which will pop out at larger
>>angels of attack, but you are still well above stall.
>>
>>A power off stall is very interesting in this aircraft. You start to
>>get stall buffett and, if you simply hold the yoke all the way back,
>>you descend a little over 1000 fpm with the nose level on the horizon.
>> You can turn with just the ailerons as you are descending.
>
> What happens if you yank the sitck back?
>
> Or if you start to apply rudder to accelerate a turn and then apply
> opposite aileron to keep from banking too steeply and just keep on
> crossing the controls while you bleed off airspeed?
>
> Just curious. I'm sure the results in the Socata are benign.
>
> Don

I've gotten a slight stall break in a 3/4 power on stall. Very benign with
a slight fall off to the right which was easily countered with ruddder.
With full power and no flaps, I've approached stall buffet, but at that
point I was more than 30 degrees nose high and felt like I was going to
tumble out of my seat backwards. And, at the onset of stall buffet, I was
still climbing!

The Rallye is a STOL aircraft with oversized control surfaces and Fowler
flaps. I have done turns starting from a maximum forward slip and didn't
notice any adverse behavior, but I was probably 10 knots above stall.

I've done 45 degree banked turns at MCA and found the aircraft handling to
be smooth and solid. One of my partners has gone to 60 degrees bank at MCA
and said he had the same results.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[EDR]

In article >, Marty Shapiro
> wrote:

> It has automatic leading edge slats which will pop out at larger angels of
> attack, but you are still well above stall.

Those wouldn't be the angels of death, by chance, would they?

[Ron Natalie]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message ...
> In article >,
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote:
>
> > Navions don't have one. I believe it's optional on Maules.
>
> Are these CAR-3 or a FAR-23?
>
> Now that I think about it, I've flown a Decathlon. I honestly don't
> remember if it had a stall warning or not. My recollection is you knew
> you were stalled when you saw the ground going round-and-round :-)

The Navion is CAR 3. Dunno about the Maule.

[Marty Shapiro]

EDR > wrote in
:

> In article >, Marty Shapiro
> > wrote:
>
>> It has automatic leading edge slats which will pop out at larger
>> angels of attack, but you are still well above stall.
>
> Those wouldn't be the angels of death, by chance, would they?

Only if I attach something to the 4 hard points standard on the Rallye
235E!

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Larry Fransson]

The Cessna 501 and 551 (better known as the Citation I SP and II SP) meet
part 25 requirements, but are placed under part 23 for single pilot
operations. They have no stall warning devices. There is a very
significant prestall buffet.

--
Larry Fransson
Seattle, WA

[Gene Seibel]

My Tri-Pacer had none.
--
Gene Seibel
Tri-Pacer Page - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane2.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.




Roy Smith > wrote in message >...
> Researching a question from a club member, I read in the FAR's:
>
> §**23.207 *Stall warning.
> [...]
> (b) The stall warning may be furnished either through the inherent
> aerodynamic qualities of the airplane or by a device that will give
> clearly distinguishable indications under expected conditions of flight.
>
> Every plane I've ever flown has a mechanical stall warning device (some
> visual, some aural), but apparantly it's possible to certify a plane
> without one. Does anybody know of any real life examples of planes
> certified without stall warning devices?

[ShawnD2112]

Whole bunches of early machines don't have them including (but not limited
to:)

Piper Cub series
Taylorcraft BC-12D
Pitts Special
P-51 Mustang
Corsair
Spitfire

The Falco had an aerodynamic rather than mechanical. There's a false
leading edge on about 6 inches of the wing which causes turbulent air over
that section and makes a buffeting on the wing to give the indication of an
impending stall.

I personally haven't flown an airplane with a stall warning in about 250
hours (last 5 years or so) and, quite frankly, would rather do without the
racket.

Shawn
"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Researching a question from a club member, I read in the FAR's:
>
> § 23.207 Stall warning.
> [...]
> (b) The stall warning may be furnished either through the inherent
> aerodynamic qualities of the airplane or by a device that will give
> clearly distinguishable indications under expected conditions of flight.
>
> Every plane I've ever flown has a mechanical stall warning device (some
> visual, some aural), but apparantly it's possible to certify a plane
> without one. Does anybody know of any real life examples of planes
> certified without stall warning devices?

[Kees Mies]

The Socata Rallye has a stall warning!
Their famous automatic leading edge slats are it.
At least, that's what I use them mainly for. They are great speed
brakes too.
I do not pay much attention to the air speed at take off or on short
final.
When I see the leading edge go forward about 4 inches from the corner
of my left eye, I know it is time to have a look at the dials.

To my opinion these are the best stall warnings one can have.
Instead of a lot of noise(a Rallye is noisy enough) and some red
light, they keep the stall away for about 15 kts.
This said, do not try to flare a Rallye at too high speed.
The slats pop out and you go up again.

And they keep the Socata leading-edge-slat-roller-division going.

Regards,
Kees
MS880B


Marty Shapiro > wrote in message >...
> Roy Smith > wrote in news:roy-
> :
>
> > Researching a question from a club member, I read in the FAR's:
> >
> > §**23.207 *Stall warning.
> > [...]
> > (b) The stall warning may be furnished either through the inherent
> > aerodynamic qualities of the airplane or by a device that will give
> > clearly distinguishable indications under expected conditions of flight.
> >
> > Every plane I've ever flown has a mechanical stall warning device (some
> > visual, some aural), but apparantly it's possible to certify a plane
> > without one. Does anybody know of any real life examples of planes
> > certified without stall warning devices?
>
> The SOCATA Rallye does NOT have a stall warning device!
>
> It has automatic leading edge slats which will pop out at larger angels of
> attack, but you are still well above stall.
>
> A power off stall is very interesting in this aircraft. You start to get
> stall buffett and, if you simply hold the yoke all the way back, you
> descend a little over 1000 fpm with the nose level on the horizon. You can
> turn with just the ailerons as you are descending.

[Marty Shapiro]

(Kees Mies) wrote in
om:

> The Socata Rallye has a stall warning!
> Their famous automatic leading edge slats are it.
> At least, that's what I use them mainly for. They are great speed
> brakes too.
> I do not pay much attention to the air speed at take off or on short
> final.
> When I see the leading edge go forward about 4 inches from the corner
> of my left eye, I know it is time to have a look at the dials.
>
> To my opinion these are the best stall warnings one can have.
> Instead of a lot of noise(a Rallye is noisy enough) and some red
> light, they keep the stall away for about 15 kts.
> This said, do not try to flare a Rallye at too high speed.
> The slats pop out and you go up again.
>
> And they keep the Socata leading-edge-slat-roller-division going.
>
> Regards,
> Kees
> MS880B
>
>
> Marty Shapiro > wrote in message
> >...
>> Roy Smith > wrote in news:roy-
>> :
>>
>> > Researching a question from a club member, I read in the FAR's:
>> >
>> > §**23.207 *Stall warning.
>> > [...]
>> > (b) The stall warning may be furnished either through the inherent
>> > aerodynamic qualities of the airplane or by a device that will give
>> > clearly distinguishable indications under expected conditions of
>> > flight.
>> >
>> > Every plane I've ever flown has a mechanical stall warning device
>> > (some visual, some aural), but apparantly it's possible to certify
>> > a plane without one. Does anybody know of any real life examples
>> > of planes certified without stall warning devices?
>>
>> The SOCATA Rallye does NOT have a stall warning device!
>>
>> It has automatic leading edge slats which will pop out at larger
>> angels of attack, but you are still well above stall.
>>
>> A power off stall is very interesting in this aircraft. You start to
>> get stall buffett and, if you simply hold the yoke all the way back,
>> you descend a little over 1000 fpm with the nose level on the
>> horizon. You can turn with just the ailerons as you are descending.
>

Under the definition of stall warning in the US FAR §23.207 (which
references §23.1185), the automatic leading edge slat deployment is NOT a
stall warning.

Although the automatic leading edge slat deployment meets the requirement
of §23.207(c) where warning is required at least 5 knots above stall, it
does NOT meet the requirement of §23.207(d) "When following procedures
furnished in accordance with §23.1585, the stall warning must not occur
during a takeoff with all engines operating, a takeoff continued with one
engine inoperative, or during an approach to landing." 23.1585 refers to
the required aircraft operating procedures which include Vx, Vy, etc.

In the Rallye 235E, the slats will automatically deploy at rotation and
remain deployed at both Vx and Vy. As you transition from Vy to cruise
climb, they retract. They also deploy on landing at about Vref. At Vx, Vy,
and Vref, the automatic deployment of the leading edge slats violate the
FAR requirements for a stall warning.

The slats will sometimes extend & retract in light chop at cruise speed (Va
and above). I've never had a stall horn in a Piper or Cessna sound off in
light chop.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Kees Mies]

Marty Shapiro > wrote in message >...
> (Kees Mies) wrote in
> om:
>
> > The Socata Rallye has a stall warning!
> > Their famous automatic leading edge slats are it.
> > At least, that's what I use them mainly for. They are great speed
> > brakes too.
> > I do not pay much attention to the air speed at take off or on short
> > final.
> > When I see the leading edge go forward about 4 inches from the corner
> > of my left eye, I know it is time to have a look at the dials.
> >
> > To my opinion these are the best stall warnings one can have.
> > Instead of a lot of noise(a Rallye is noisy enough) and some red
> > light, they keep the stall away for about 15 kts.
> > This said, do not try to flare a Rallye at too high speed.
> > The slats pop out and you go up again.
> >
> > And they keep the Socata leading-edge-slat-roller-division going.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Kees
> > MS880B
> >
> >
> > Marty Shapiro > wrote in message
> > >...
> >> Roy Smith > wrote in news:roy-
> >> :
> >>
> >> > Researching a question from a club member, I read in the FAR's:
> >> >
> >> > §**23.207 *Stall warning.
> >> > [...]
> >> > (b) The stall warning may be furnished either through the inherent
> >> > aerodynamic qualities of the airplane or by a device that will give
> >> > clearly distinguishable indications under expected conditions of
> >> > flight.
> >> >
> >> > Every plane I've ever flown has a mechanical stall warning device
> >> > (some visual, some aural), but apparantly it's possible to certify
> >> > a plane without one. Does anybody know of any real life examples
> >> > of planes certified without stall warning devices?
> >>
> >> The SOCATA Rallye does NOT have a stall warning device!
> >>
> >> It has automatic leading edge slats which will pop out at larger
> >> angels of attack, but you are still well above stall.
> >>
> >> A power off stall is very interesting in this aircraft. You start to
> >> get stall buffett and, if you simply hold the yoke all the way back,
> >> you descend a little over 1000 fpm with the nose level on the
> >> horizon. You can turn with just the ailerons as you are descending.
> >
>
> Under the definition of stall warning in the US FAR §23.207 (which
> references §23.1185), the automatic leading edge slat deployment is NOT a
> stall warning.
>
> Although the automatic leading edge slat deployment meets the requirement
> of §23.207(c) where warning is required at least 5 knots above stall, it
> does NOT meet the requirement of §23.207(d) "When following procedures
> furnished in accordance with §23.1585, the stall warning must not occur
> during a takeoff with all engines operating, a takeoff continued with one
> engine inoperative, or during an approach to landing." 23.1585 refers to
> the required aircraft operating procedures which include Vx, Vy, etc.
>
> In the Rallye 235E, the slats will automatically deploy at rotation and
> remain deployed at both Vx and Vy. As you transition from Vy to cruise
> climb, they retract. They also deploy on landing at about Vref. At Vx, Vy,
> and Vref, the automatic deployment of the leading edge slats violate the
> FAR requirements for a stall warning.
>
> The slats will sometimes extend & retract in light chop at cruise speed (Va
> and above). I've never had a stall horn in a Piper or Cessna sound off in
> light chop.

Hi,

Nice research.
I did some myself.
Under KEES' FAR §58112.fgg(c) is stated:
The installation of a stall warning device has NO relationship with
the pilots'/operator/owners' sense of humor.

[cloudclimbr]

..

GLIDERS

Gliders use no mechanical nor electric stall warning devices.

They use the glider.

By feeling the air, feeling control response, remaining cognizant of
roll pitch and yaw attitudes relative to airpeed, watching airspeed,
feeling g forces; watching horizon, watching changing clouds, birds,
smoke, sun angle, wind shadow on water, other aircraft, ground,
terrain features and all outside glider;
keeping glider in coordinated flight by centering yaw string on
front center of canopy, listening, feeling, dancing on clouds, to
keep flying they keep flying, generally without stall.

It is blessed to not have a stall horn aboard.

Gliders often have stick w/elevator trim, ailerons, rudder operated by
adjustable pedals, spoilers or dive brakes, many have manually
operated flaps with positive and negative position settings for climb
cruise and fast running, retractable landing gear, disposable water
ballast, 12 vdc battery elec systems, flight computers linked to gps
maps and sensitive rate of climb indicators w/adjustable sound.
Gliders are usually configured as inline two seaters for training, or
supine single seaters with long plexi canopy for personal use
including glider racing or cross country flying. Modern high
performance gliders are made of glass composite fiber materials
(reinforced plastics).

Thereupon one finds a plane without a stall horn.