Re: private plane noise

[beaudoin]

Why did you buy near an airport? Or wasn't it there when you bought the
house?

[MikeM]

Art67 wrote:
> Every weekend there seems to be more private planes flying around. Last

Get a pilots license and join the fun...

MikeM

[Walkaway Renouf]

Art67 wrote:
> Every weekend there seems to be more private planes flying around. Last
> Sunday, for example, as i tried to enjoy a quiet afternoon, every 5
> minutes or so, a plane would be buzzing outside. The noise is so loud,
> even the noise is louder than my TV or stereo. It's like a giant leaf
> blower flying over my place every 5 minutes. I have a new roof, double
> pane windows, so it's not a problem with my dwelling.
> Who can I complain to, or will I have to get use to ear plugs in my ears.
>

--== DON'T FEED THE TROLLS ==--

[David Cartwright]

"Art67" > wrote in message
...
> Every weekend there seems to be more private planes flying around. Last
> Sunday, for example, as i tried to enjoy a quiet afternoon, every 5
> minutes or so, a plane would be buzzing outside. The noise is so loud,
> even the noise is louder than my TV or stereo. It's like a giant leaf
> blower flying over my place every 5 minutes. I have a new roof, double
> pane windows, so it's not a problem with my dwelling.
> Who can I complain to, or will I have to get use to ear plugs in my ears.

I suspect other respondents will take the "damned NIMBYs" line, so I'll try
a more reasoned response :-)

The usual starting place is your local authority, though you could try
calling the local airport. If they're to investigate the matter sensibly,
you'll need to provide them with the registration markings of the aircraft
that are disturbing you (and if they're close enough to be a real nuisance,
they'll be close enough for you to read the registration letters).

To be honest, though, it strikes me as odd that you're finding private
aircraft disturbing to this extent. I live directly under the southern
circuit path (left-hand circuits on RW27, right-hand on RW09) of Norwich
Airport, and so I get a fair number of light aircraft pottering overhead at
1,000 feet (the standard height for circuits at Norwich). The noise is
certainly not louder than the TV, even with the windows open, and even if
you're sitting in the garden in the summer with a beer and a butty, you can
happily carry on a conversation. (In fact when I was a student I used to
live in what used to be the airmen's residences, which are physically
attached to the airport!).

Sounds like something's a bit amiss at your place. Perhaps the circuit
height is a bit lower, or you're unfortunate enough to be in line with the
runway centreline and you're getting the aircraft landing or taking off. If
the latter, have a word with the airport about their noise abatement
procedures. Where there are residential areas in line with the runway, many
airfields (e.g. Old Buckenham, just down the road from here) dictate that
pilots should adopt a climb-out heading that avoids civilisation, partly for
noise abatement and partly for safety (if you're heading away from the
houses, you stand a better chance of finding somewhere to dump it should
your engine quit). Although the same is rarely true for landing aircraft
(landing's tricky enough for the average pilot without making them do wonky
approaches) one finds that the disturbance is less because they've got the
throttle back to half-power or less during the approach.

But I would urge you to talk to the airport, and even go see the manager,
because nine times out of ten something can be done as a result of reasoned
discussion. It may, after all, be that some pilots are flying lower than
they should, in which case the airport can take steps to warn the
offenders - or it may be that the airport could consider adding some noise
abatement recommendations. Also bear in mind that the airport authorities
will listen more intently if a number of people go to them than if it's just
one lonesome person - but if a number of you have a problem, make sure you
act reasonably and don't just head off on a rant, as that'll do nobody any
good.

Hope this helps,

D.

[David Cartwright]

"beaudoin" > wrote in message
...
> Why did you buy near an airport? Or wasn't it there when you bought the
> house?

I have to admit to feeling little sympathy to people who bought houses in
the new development that's not far from my local airport, but there is one
guy I do feel a little sorry for. There's an ageing farmhouse right on the
centreline of the main runway, which was almost certainly there before the
airport and which, being a farmhouse, may well have been handed down through
the generations (so the "why did you buy" question doesn't apply). I think
of the owner every time I go over it at 500 feet on finals ...

D.

[Bob Noel]

In article >, "David Cartwright"
> wrote:

> I suspect other respondents will take the "damned NIMBYs" line, so I'll
> try
> a more reasoned response :-)

Why do you think that the "damned NIMBYs" line is unreasonable?

--
Bob Noel

[Bob Fry]

"David Cartwright" > writes:

> I think
> of the owner every time I go over it at 500 feet on finals ...

Final isn't so bad. It's when the wind shifts and you're departing
over the guy...

[Tarver Engineering]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "David Cartwright"
> > wrote:
>
> > I suspect other respondents will take the "damned NIMBYs" line, so I'll
try
> > a more reasoned response :-)
>
> Why do you think that the "damned NIMBYs" line is unreasonable?

The noise issue is one of those issues that can win in civil court without
being subjected to an FAA challenge. It might not be fair, but it is true.

[David Cartwright]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> Why do you think that the "damned NIMBYs" line is unreasonable?

Because in this type of discussion one often finds responses of the form
"Oh, stop whining, if you don't like the noise you shouldn't have bought a
house near the airport". I hope that my response was reasonably balanced.

D.

[Micbloo]

>
>
>Art67 wrote:
>> Every weekend there seems to be more private planes flying around. Last
>> Sunday, for example, as i tried to enjoy a quiet afternoon, every 5
>> minutes or so, a plane would be buzzing outside. The noise is so loud,
>> even the noise is louder than my TV or stereo.

> DON'T FEED THE TROLLS

LOL, sounds like a candidate for the
alt.activism.noise.pollution Newsgroup.
Or as a buddy for Bill Mulcahy.

[Jim Knoyle]

"Art67" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for your response. I will inquire with someone at the Palo Alto
> airport. I think that is where the noisy planes are from, though I'm sure
> it won't do me any good.
>
> By the way, if anyone reading this group uses the Palo Alto airport, has
> the flight path changed recently?
>
>
Interesting...
I don't fly but on a run past the PA airfield a couple days ago
I couldn't help but notice a sign or two requesting that fliers
hold the noise down out of respect for neighbors. There is
at least some attempt to solve the problem.
JK (who doesn't mind the noise)


> David Cartwright > wrote:
> > "Art67" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> Every weekend there seems to be more private planes flying around. Last
> >> Sunday, for example, as i tried to enjoy a quiet afternoon, every 5
> >> minutes or so, a plane would be buzzing outside. The noise is so loud,
> >> even the noise is louder than my TV or stereo. It's like a giant leaf
> >> blower flying over my place every 5 minutes. I have a new roof, double
> >> pane windows, so it's not a problem with my dwelling.
> >> Who can I complain to, or will I have to get use to ear plugs in my
ears.
> >
> > I suspect other respondents will take the "damned NIMBYs" line, so I'll
try
> > a more reasoned response :-)
> >
> > The usual starting place is your local authority, though you could try
> > calling the local airport. If they're to investigate the matter
sensibly,
> > you'll need to provide them with the registration markings of the
aircraft
> > that are disturbing you (and if they're close enough to be a real
nuisance,
> > they'll be close enough for you to read the registration letters).
> >
> > To be honest, though, it strikes me as odd that you're finding private
> > aircraft disturbing to this extent. I live directly under the southern
> > circuit path (left-hand circuits on RW27, right-hand on RW09) of Norwich
> > Airport, and so I get a fair number of light aircraft pottering overhead
at
> > 1,000 feet (the standard height for circuits at Norwich). The noise is
> > certainly not louder than the TV, even with the windows open, and even
if
> > you're sitting in the garden in the summer with a beer and a butty, you
can
> > happily carry on a conversation. (In fact when I was a student I used to
> > live in what used to be the airmen's residences, which are physically
> > attached to the airport!).
> >
> > Sounds like something's a bit amiss at your place. Perhaps the circuit
> > height is a bit lower, or you're unfortunate enough to be in line with
the
> > runway centreline and you're getting the aircraft landing or taking off.
If
> > the latter, have a word with the airport about their noise abatement
> > procedures. Where there are residential areas in line with the runway,
many
> > airfields (e.g. Old Buckenham, just down the road from here) dictate
that
> > pilots should adopt a climb-out heading that avoids civilisation, partly
for
> > noise abatement and partly for safety (if you're heading away from the
> > houses, you stand a better chance of finding somewhere to dump it should
> > your engine quit). Although the same is rarely true for landing aircraft
> > (landing's tricky enough for the average pilot without making them do
wonky
> > approaches) one finds that the disturbance is less because they've got
the
> > throttle back to half-power or less during the approach.
> >
> > But I would urge you to talk to the airport, and even go see the
manager,
> > because nine times out of ten something can be done as a result of
reasoned
> > discussion. It may, after all, be that some pilots are flying lower than
> > they should, in which case the airport can take steps to warn the
> > offenders - or it may be that the airport could consider adding some
noise
> > abatement recommendations. Also bear in mind that the airport
authorities
> > will listen more intently if a number of people go to them than if it's
just
> > one lonesome person - but if a number of you have a problem, make sure
you
> > act reasonably and don't just head off on a rant, as that'll do nobody
any
> > good.
> >
> > Hope this helps,
> >
> > D.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >, Art67 >
wrote:

> Thanks for your response. I will inquire with someone at the Palo Alto
> airport. I think that is where the noisy planes are from, though I'm sure
> it won't do me any good.
>
> By the way, if anyone reading this group uses the Palo Alto airport, has
> the flight path changed recently?


I used to fly out of Palo Alto. Where do you live? The only housing
around PAO is in East Palo Alto, under the departure of Runway 30 --
there is only marsh under the approach end of 30.

We used to make a 30 degree right turn shortly after liftoff, to avoid
East Palo Alto, as it was rumored that some of the residents were taking
potshots at planes.

San Carlos Airport is just about 5 miles north, along US 101 -- it could
also be the cause of some noise.

[James M. Knox]

"Jim Knoyle" > wrote in
:

> Interesting...
> I don't fly but on a run past the PA airfield a couple days ago
> I couldn't help but notice a sign or two requesting that fliers
> hold the noise down out of respect for neighbors. There is
> at least some attempt to solve the problem.

I suspect you are talking about a "Noise Abatement" sign. More and more
airports are adopting them, some as a requirement, others as a "suggested
procedures." In some cases the pilot (at least when departing from some
runways) can significantly reduce the footprint over noise-sensitive areas
by a slight turn after takeoff, which is probably good for both the pilot
and the neighbors.

Unfortunately, many airports (including where I am based) have seen major
housing developments almost completely surround the airport. In those
cases the ONLY option the pilot has left is to depart with a lower climb
per minute rate (either by reducing power, reducing propeller speed, or
climbing at a higher angle). There is a small, but significant reduction
in safety when the pilot does this... it's like asking you to only use low
gear when pulling onto the freeway, meaning that the other traffic is
moving a lot faster than you are. Not the safest way to handle things.

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >, Art67 >
wrote:

> Orval Fairbairn > wrote:
> > San Carlos Airport is just about 5 miles north, along US 101 -- it could
> > also be the cause of some noise.
>
> I thought about that too. I will watch the planes this weekend, to see
> where they are coming from.
>

You do realize, of course, that the planes are doing nothing illegal,
and that active private aviation is a sign of a healthy society and is
also a part of modern life -- especially in urban areas.

[William W. Plummer]

"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Art67 >
> wrote:
>
> > Orval Fairbairn > wrote:
> > > San Carlos Airport is just about 5 miles north, along US 101 -- it
could
> > > also be the cause of some noise.
> >
> > I thought about that too. I will watch the planes this weekend, to see
> > where they are coming from.
> >
>
> You do realize, of course, that the planes are doing nothing illegal,
> and that active private aviation is a sign of a healthy society and is
> also a part of modern life -- especially in urban areas.

Why do people find noise from suburban airports so annoying. Try listening
to highway noise. My home is several miles from I-495 and I can hear it
sometimes. The gym I use is a few hundred yards from the highway and the
noise is deafening.

[David Cartwright]

"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
news:orfairbairn_spam_sucks-
> You do realize, of course, that the planes are doing nothing illegal,
> and that active private aviation is a sign of a healthy society and is
> also a part of modern life -- especially in urban areas.

Assuming that they're conforming with minimum height requirements, published
circuit heights, etc, etc :-) As I've mentioned in a previous post, my local
airport has a circuit height of 1,000 feet, and it's very easy to tell,
noise-wise, when someone who's used to a lower circuit height at another
airfield comes pottering over my house at 800 feet.

D.

[rip]

As an AOPA Airport Support Network volunteer, noise is a HUGE issue.
The problem with aircraft noise is, I think, twofold. One, it comes from
an unusual direction (overhead)which is probably hard-wired in the human
nervous system as a "panic, panic, danger in the trees" response. Two,
and perhaps more important, aircraft noise is intermittent. Folks can
get used to ungodly noise levels IF they are consistent. It's the
anticipation of the NEXT "damn little airplane" that makes the noise so
aggravating. In other words, if there were loudspeakers around every
housing development broadcasting aircraft noises 24x7, folks would get
used to the background noise, and wouldn't even notice when one more
joined the pattern.

Rip

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> In article >, Art67 >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Orval Fairbairn > wrote:
>>
>>>San Carlos Airport is just about 5 miles north, along US 101 -- it could
>>>also be the cause of some noise.
>>
>>I thought about that too. I will watch the planes this weekend, to see
>>where they are coming from.
>>
>
>
> You do realize, of course, that the planes are doing nothing illegal,
> and that active private aviation is a sign of a healthy society and is
> also a part of modern life -- especially in urban areas.

[[email protected]]

James M. Knox > wrote:
: per minute rate (either by reducing power, reducing propeller speed, or
: climbing at a higher angle). There is a small, but significant reduction
: in safety when the pilot does this... it's like asking you to only use low
: gear when pulling onto the freeway, meaning that the other traffic is
: moving a lot faster than you are. Not the safest way to handle things.

It's worse than that... partial-power takeoffs are generally not
only not recommended, but can cause engine damage in some configurations.
For example, in most Lycomings, full-throttle included additional fuel
enrichement beyond just "full rich." Reducing this and/or RPM (if CS
prop) can lead to detonation.

-Cory

--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

[John Godwin]

Art67 > wrote in
:

> Yes, highway noise, truck noise, lawn mower noise etc. is bad too,
> but that noise I can block out pretty well with double pane
> windows and insulation, and loud music if need be, but plane noise
> comes through the roof, and I don't know how to handle that.
>
> I guess I'm just more sensitive to noise than most people. I asked
> a friend if the plane noise bothered her, and she said no.

I was at our local airport today and I heard the takeoff noise of the
loudest Bonanza I'd ever heard. I went outside to see how low it was
... turned out to be a Chevy with no muffler roaring down the side
street.

--
John Godwin
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT from email address)

[Roy Epperson]

Attic insulation helps....

"Art67" > wrote in message
...
> William W. Plummer > wrote:
> >
> > "Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in
message
> >> In article >, Art67 >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Orval Fairbairn > wrote:
> >> > > San Carlos Airport is just about 5 miles north, along US 101 -- it
> > could
> >> > > also be the cause of some noise.
> >> >
> >> > I thought about that too. I will watch the planes this weekend, to
see
> >> > where they are coming from.
> >> >
> >>
> >> You do realize, of course, that the planes are doing nothing illegal,
> >> and that active private aviation is a sign of a healthy society and is
> >> also a part of modern life -- especially in urban areas.
> >
> > Why do people find noise from suburban airports so annoying. Try
listening
> > to highway noise. My home is several miles from I-495 and I can hear it
> > sometimes. The gym I use is a few hundred yards from the highway and
the
> > noise is deafening.
>
> Yes, highway noise, truck noise, lawn mower noise etc. is bad too,
> but that noise I can block out pretty well with double pane windows and
> insulation, and loud music if need be, but plane noise comes through the
> roof, and I don't know how to handle that.
>
> I guess I'm just more sensitive to noise than most people. I asked a
> friend if the plane noise bothered her, and she said no.

[Sylvain]

rip > wrote in message >...
> As an AOPA Airport Support Network volunteer, noise is a HUGE issue.
> The problem with aircraft noise is, I think, twofold. One, it comes from
> an unusual direction (overhead)which is probably hard-wired in the human
> nervous system as a "panic, panic, danger in the trees" response. Two,
> and perhaps more important, aircraft noise is intermittent. Folks can
> get used to ungodly noise levels IF they are consistent.

there is also a fair bit of irrational hatred of the unknown; usually
these complaints come along with the usual stereotype of the 'rich boy's toys';
just spend some time at your local town meeting... I even heard folks
complaining about the noise from a local glider port (winch launch only);
i.e., no matter of noise abatment effort, silencers, etc. could beat that.
Just seeing people enjoying themselves can trigger rather interesting
responses from some people; plus don't forget the folks who hope for
the airport closure jackpot, increasing the value of their property
(bought at discount rate since near an airport), making it possible
for them to buy something better *elsewhere*... i.e., noise is only
at tiny part of the issue.

--Sylvain

[Micbloo]

>From: Art67

>Yes, highway noise, truck noise, lawn mower noise etc. is bad too,
>but that noise I can block out pretty well with
>loud music

HUh? EXCUSE ME?
Hey, maybe your LOUD MUSIC is bothering YOUR NEIGHBORS!!

[Thomas Borchert]

> Reducing this and/or RPM (if CS
> prop) can lead to detonation.
>

Hold it! While you are absolutely right wrt throttle reduction, a
moderate RPM reduction (e.g. to 2500 for noise reduction) is totally
harmless.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[[email protected]]

Thomas Borchert > wrote:
:> Reducing this and/or RPM (if CS
:> prop) can lead to detonation.
:>

: Hold it! While you are absolutely right wrt throttle reduction, a
: moderate RPM reduction (e.g. to 2500 for noise reduction) is totally
: harmless.

I'm sure that's true... just wanted to point out that modifications of the
procedures in POH's (in particular partial power TO) can have unobvious but
potentially bad consequences. Changing from 2700->2500 shouldn't cause engine
troubles, and can reduce noise by a lot. As always, YMMV.

-Cory

--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************