Re: Total Air Temperature question

[Mike Rapoport]

"Peter" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
>
> I fly a TB20 and a friend who has the same one with a Shadin air data
> computer tells me that he normally gets (say 160 ktas, 10k feet, ISA)
> a TAT value of about 3 degC higher than that returned by the existing
> OAT sensor.
>
> I looked up TAT and found info like
>
> http://mtp.jpl.nasa.gov/notes/sat/sat.html
>
> which explains TAT as being Ts (static air temp) adjusted for mach
> effects.
>
> This raises two questions:
>
> 1) Can one really get a 3 degC difference at such a low speed? I
> recall a long thread here from some years ago where it was suggested
> the increase is below 1 degC.

Accoring to their website Shadin outputs "True Air Temperature" and on the
MU-2 the Shadin temp is lower than the existing OAT guage which uses a, very
accurate, flush, sensor. I haven't found a definition for "True Air
Temperature" but I think that it is "Static Air Temperature". The MU-2
flight manual has a correction table to convert indicated OAT to SAT and the
temperature output by the Shadin is consistant with what SAT should be.
Keep in mind that your friend's OAT sensor is sees Total Air Temperature and
since it doesn't know its Mach number, it can't possibly produce a corrected
temperature like SAT.

The 3C difference is a function of instrument error. The error is greater
than 3C since the Shadin should be showing a lower temp.


> 2) What is the use of TAT in the context of icing? Presumably the temp
> rise will vary over different parts of the aircraft.

If the TAT is above freezing then you won't get much ice but it can still
form. Keep in mind that it is SAT that determines the temperature of the
droplets. You could be flying in -10C (SAT) with a +1C (TAT) and the
supercooled drops would cool the leading edges below 0C and ice would form
(If the mass of the -10C dropplets was large enough to cool the surface
faster than the 1C air could heat it). It would melt off pretty quickly
once you were out of the cloud though since it would be exposed to +1C. I
heard once that if you can go 400kts IAS then airframe icing is imposible. I
forget where I saw this. Yes, the temperature rise varies with location on
the airplane with leading edges and areas of increasing cross section seeing
more temp rise.

Mike
MU-2.

[Mike Rapoport]

"Peter" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote
>
>>The 3C difference is a function of instrument error. The error is
>>greater
>>than 3C since the Shadin should be showing a lower temp.
>
> OK, that demolishes my argument... I will suggest he checks his OAT
> gauge. I check mine, the same type, regularly against a PT100 meter
> which is certified to 0.1C and it is always within the OAT display
> resolution (1C).
>
> However are you quite sure that TAT should be lower than SAT? An OAT
> gauge which is that far out would be pretty obvious on the ground e.g.
> when getting the ATIS.
>

Not exactly...IF "TAT" is Total Air Temperature then it will be higher than
SAT. But ( a couple buts actually!)

1)The OEM OAT guage reads TAT not SAT since it is not corrected for Mach
effects. Thus, there is no way that the Shadin should read higher than the
OEM guage if both are accurate. If the Shadin is displaying Total Air
Temperature, then it should read the same. If the Shadin is displaying
Static Air Temperature (which they might be calling "True Air Temperature)
then the Shadin should read lower. Either way the Shadin should not read
higher if both are accurate

2)If you to to Shadin's website, they state that the ADC puts out "True Air
Temperature" and I think that they mean acutal air temperature or SAT. My
own observation is that, on the MU-2, the OAT guage reads a higher
temperature than the ADC displays and the difference between them matches
the temperature correction table in the flight manual pretty well
http://www.shadin.com/specs/adc_200.htm

Confusing this issue further, Garmin says the TAT means "Total Air
Temperature and, on the 530 the temp is displayed as XXTAT. However, Shadin
doesn't claim that the ADC even outputs Total Air Temperature. I actually
asked Shadin this question this morining but, stupidly, I forgot to attach
my email address!

The way to test all of this is to see how the temperature spread varies
between the OEM OAT guage and the Shadin ADC at different airspeeds since
TAT will go up and SAT will not.

>>Keep in mind that it is SAT that determines the temperature of the
>>droplets.
>
> I can see this but I would think it is the temperature of the airframe
> that determines whether the droplets will freeze when they will hit
> it.
>
Yes, but the temperature of the airframe will be different depending of
whether it is flying through +1C air or +1C air loaded with -10C droplets.
As the number and size of the droplets increases the leading edges will get
closer to -10C. This is mostly theoretical for low speed aircraft but is
relevent for jets which have large spreads between TAT and SAT.


Mike
MU-2

[Bill]

I have the Insight TAS-1000 in my airplane.

I've noticed that there's about a 5 degree C rise in air temp
when flying at the top of the green (165kts or so as memory serves)

One can count on getting ice when the TAT is exactly zero.

I've often wondered why the variation... the OAT thermometer measures
static, I think.

The reason the jets have little trouble with ice is that they go so
fast that
TAT remains above zero until the OAT is so low that ice is not a
problem.

Bill Hale

[Mike Rapoport]

"Peter" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote
>
>>Yes, but the temperature of the airframe will be different depending of
>>whether it is flying through +1C air or +1C air loaded with -10C droplets.
>
> How is that possible? Surely if the SAT is +1C then everything hanging
> in the air will also be +1C.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that in a case where TAT was 1C you could
still get icing because SAT could be low enough (well below 0C) that the
water droplets are cold enough to cool the airframe below 0C and still be
supercooled themselves.

> I looked at the Shadin website but there is no useful information, and
> they have removed the detailed manual.
>
Did you find where it lists the information that the ADC 200 outputs? Total
Air Temperature is not one of them.

Mike
MU-2

[Mike Rapoport]

"Bill" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I have the Insight TAS-1000 in my airplane.
>
> I've noticed that there's about a 5 degree C rise in air temp
> when flying at the top of the green (165kts or so as memory serves)
>
> One can count on getting ice when the TAT is exactly zero.
>
> I've often wondered why the variation... the OAT thermometer measures
> static, I think.

No, the OAT thermometer measures TAT.

Mike
MU-2

> The reason the jets have little trouble with ice is that they go so
> fast that
> TAT remains above zero until the OAT is so low that ice is not a
> problem.
>
> Bill Hale
>

[Chuck]

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 01:43:33 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
> wrote:

>
>"Peter" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote
>>
>>>Yes, but the temperature of the airframe will be different depending of
>>>whether it is flying through +1C air or +1C air loaded with -10C droplets.
>>
>> How is that possible? Surely if the SAT is +1C then everything hanging
>> in the air will also be +1C.
>
>Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that in a case where TAT was 1C you could
>still get icing because SAT could be low enough (well below 0C) that the
>water droplets are cold enough to cool the airframe below 0C and still be
>supercooled themselves.
>
>> I looked at the Shadin website but there is no useful information, and
>> they have removed the detailed manual.
>>
>Did you find where it lists the information that the ADC 200 outputs? Total
>Air Temperature is not one of them.
>
>Mike
>MU-2
>
Mike..
ALL of your temp gauges must be better than ours (OMC O.A.T) In any
of the 15 MU-2s we have,, Ice forming on the taxi light is indication
of below freezing (or approaching it). No wonder they want ice
protection prior to reaching anything close to 0 *C..
Chuck