New ASK-21prices

[kirk.stant]

I'm trying to build the case for my club to add a new (or mildly used)
K-21 to our fleet. Anyone have info on current prices? This would be
for delivery in the US (Right Coast)?

Feel free to email me directly if desired.

kirk dot stant at gmail dot com

Cheers!

Kirk
66

[Mike the Strike]

On Oct 21, 10:32*am, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
> I'm trying to build the case for my club to add a new (or mildly used)
> K-21 to our fleet. *Anyone have info on current prices? *This would be
> for delivery in the US (Right Coast)?
>
> Feel free to email me directly if desired.
>
> kirk dot stant at gmail dot com
>
> Cheers!
>
> Kirk
> 66

Eastern Sailplane show it on their website as 64,100 Euro +
instruments, trailer and shipping.

I think you'll be looking at around $125,000.

Mike

[bildan]

On Oct 21, 2:00*pm, Mike the Strike > wrote:
> On Oct 21, 10:32*am, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
>
> > I'm trying to build the case for my club to add a new (or mildly used)
> > K-21 to our fleet. *Anyone have info on current prices? *This would be
> > for delivery in the US (Right Coast)?
>
> > Feel free to email me directly if desired.
>
> > kirk dot stant at gmail dot com
>
> > Cheers!
>
> > Kirk
> > 66
>
> Eastern Sailplane show it on their website as 64,100 Euro +
> instruments, trailer and shipping.
>
> I think you'll be looking at around $125,000.
>
> Mike

For a little perspective, in 1970 a new 2-33 sold for $23,000. In
inflated 2010 Dollars that would be $127,000.00 using the Consumer
Price Index. Of course, the ASK-21 is a little better glider.

[[email protected]]

On Oct 21, 1:32*pm, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
> I'm trying to build the case for my club to add a new (or mildly used)
> K-21 to our fleet. *Anyone have info on current prices? *This would be
> for delivery in the US (Right Coast)?
>
> Feel free to email me directly if desired.
>
> kirk dot stant at gmail dot com
>
> Cheers!
>
> Kirk
> 66

Phone call to John got answer as 74300 Euro
UH

[Dave Nadler]

On Oct 21, 5:23*pm, wrote:
> On Oct 21, 1:32*pm, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
>
> > I'm trying to build the case for my club to add a new (or mildly used)
> > K-21 to our fleet. *Anyone have info on current prices? *This would be
> > for delivery in the US (Right Coast)?
>
> > Feel free to email me directly if desired.
>
> > kirk dot stant at gmail dot com
>
> > Cheers!
>
> > Kirk
> > 66
>
> Phone call to John got answer as 74300 Euro
> UH

Plus trailer and instruments and shipping etc ?
Guestimated total ?

[John Cochrane[_2_]]

>
> > Phone call to John got answer as 74300 Euro
> > UH
>
Now let's talk benefits. our club (chicago glider) bought a brand new
ASK21 last year. The thing is gorgeous. It flies much more nicely than
the other ASK21 in our club (much older). Controls are crisp, handling
great, and it's a pleasure to give rides in a nice new glider.Get and
use the spin weights too.

John Cochrane

[RRK]

Kirk,
Buy new PW-6. In most respects as good as K-21 .
For the money you'll save you can add a couple of used PW-5.
Great set for any Club.

[bildan]

On Oct 21, 8:53*pm, RRK > wrote:
> Kirk,
> Buy new PW-6. In most respects as good as K-21 .
> For the money you'll save you can add a couple of used PW-5.
> Great set for any Club.

I've flown both and while the PW-6 is a very nice glider, it's not in
the same league as the ASK-21.

The two ASK-21's I fly are 30 years old having led a hard life with
the USAFA and CAP but they still look almost new with barely any
cracks in the gelcoat. ASK-21's are RUGGED!

[Mike Schumann]

On 10/21/2010 4:00 PM, Mike the Strike wrote:
> On Oct 21, 10:32 am, > wrote:
>> I'm trying to build the case for my club to add a new (or mildly used)
>> K-21 to our fleet. Anyone have info on current prices? This would be
>> for delivery in the US (Right Coast)?
>>
>> Feel free to email me directly if desired.
>>
>> kirk dot stant at gmail dot com
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>> Kirk
>> 66
>
> Eastern Sailplane show it on their website as 64,100 Euro +
> instruments, trailer and shipping.
>
> I think you'll be looking at around $125,000.
>
> Mike
For that price you could come close to buying a Phoenix Motorglider.
This could be an interesting option for a club:

1. 2 Place touring motor glider
2. Downwind dashes without the logistical hassles of chase crews, etc.
3. Can be used as a tow plane for single seat gliders
4. Fits in a standard T-Hanger with 10 second wing tip removal

--
Mike Schumann

[kd6veb]

Hi Mike
You have got that right! Also the Phoenix comes as a short wing
glider with the outer wing panels removed and as such operates much as
a standard LSA (on a glider ticket). Oh I almost forgot to mention it
comes with a ballistic parachute and a 2 axis autopilot for long
distance motoring. So a Phoenix has the same L/D as my old
SparrowHawk, a similar performance as my old LSA the Jabiru J250 and
finally everything and more compared to my Stemme S10-VT except the
near 50/1 glide ratio. The Jab and the SparrowHawk are sold and the
Stemme is up for sale. My Phoenix should arrive next spring.
Dave


>
> For that price you could come close to buying a Phoenix Motorglider.
> This could be an interesting option for a club:
>
> 1. *2 Place touring motor glider
> 2. *Downwind dashes without the logistical hassles of chase crews, etc.
> 3. *Can be used as a tow plane for single seat gliders
> 4. *Fits in a standard T-Hanger with 10 second wing tip removal
>
> --
> Mike Schumann

[sisu1a]

> > For that price you could come close to buying a Phoenix Motorglider.

Had a chance to check one out last Sept at Tehachapi. Unfortunately
it veered off the runway while taxiing and sheared the main left wheel
clean off at the ankle before I saw it fly. Interestingly, the wing
never touched the ground despite being low mounted and resting at such
an incline due to the polyhedral. Nice looking plane though...

-Paul

[Steve]

On Oct 21, 3:45*pm, bildan > wrote:
> On Oct 21, 2:00*pm, Mike the Strike > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 21, 10:32*am, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
>
> > > I'm trying to build the case for my club to add a new (or mildly used)
> > > K-21 to our fleet. *Anyone have info on current prices? *This would be
> > > for delivery in the US (Right Coast)?
>
> > > Feel free to email me directly if desired.
>
> > > kirk dot stant at gmail dot com
>
> > > Cheers!
>
> > > Kirk
> > > 66
>
> > Eastern Sailplane show it on their website as 64,100 Euro +
> > instruments, trailer and shipping.
>
> > I think you'll be looking at around $125,000.
>
> > Mike
>
> For a little perspective, in 1970 a new 2-33 sold for $23,000. *In
> inflated 2010 Dollars that would be $127,000.00 using the Consumer
> Price Index. *Of course, the ASK-21 is a little better glider.

What was the hourly rental price for 2-33 and L-13 in the Seventies?
Tow prices and instruction? How did that compare to the rental/
instruction in a Cessna 150? I bought a new 1974 Toyota Celica GT, 5-
speed with air conditioning for $4,400.00 in September, 1974.

[RRK]

On Oct 21, 11:57*pm, bildan > wrote:

>
> I've flown both and while the PW-6 is a very nice glider, it's not in
> the same league as the ASK-21.
>


"bildan"
would you elaborate a little bit more on your's opinion.
You stated that PW-6 is in the different league than K-21. Why?
Since you flown both of them, I'm sure it will be easy to justified
you conclusion.
Could you share it with us ? Please.
RRK

[bildan]

On Oct 23, 12:53*am, RRK > wrote:
> On Oct 21, 11:57*pm, bildan > wrote:
>
>
>
> > I've flown both and while the PW-6 is a very nice glider, it's not in
> > the same league as the ASK-21.
>
> "bildan"
> * * * * * * * would you elaborate a little bit more on your's opinion.
> You stated that *PW-6 is in the different league than K-21. Why?
> Since you flown both of them, *I'm sure it will be easy to justified
> you conclusion.
> Could you share it with us ? Please.
> RRK

It's just my humble opinion. To me the ASK-21 feels more solid, more
rugged. The ASK-21's larger wing seems to hold on to weak lift better
and the controls are better harmonized. The 21's cockpit is bigger.
I love the docile stall behavior.

[kirk.stant]

Thanks to all the replies - both online and direct. Now comes the
hard part - convincing the old guard that it's time to retire the 2-33
and move on.

As far as the suggestion to get a motorglider - not interested. It
may be the perfect plane for some people & clubs, but not for ours.

I've considered the PW-6 and looked at one (did not get to fly it,
unfortunately) and it's an interesting little glider - second on my
list. I confess to a lot of time in K-21s, including giving
commercial acro rides, and really like the way it flies. And it's a
tough ship - far stronger than the Grob 103, IMO.

Again, thanks for the feedback; hopefully at some time in the future
I'll be able to report the purchase of a new glider...

Kirk
66

[John Cochrane[_2_]]

On Oct 23, 10:54*am, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
> Thanks to all the replies - both online and direct. *Now comes the
> hard part - convincing the old guard that it's time to retire the 2-33
> and move on.
>
> As far as the suggestion to get a motorglider - not interested. *It
> may be the perfect plane for some people & clubs, but not for ours.
>
> I've considered the PW-6 and looked at one (did not get to fly it,
> unfortunately) and it's an interesting little glider - second on my
> list. *I confess to a lot of time in K-21s, including giving
> commercial acro rides, and really like the way it flies. *And it's a
> tough ship - far stronger than the Grob 103, IMO.
>
> Again, thanks for the feedback; hopefully at some time in the future
> I'll be able to report the purchase of a new glider...
>
> Kirk
> 66

Last point. Often on ras people say that the 21 is a bad trainer
because it can't stall or spin properly. The answer is, get the spin
weights. I took ours out last weekend for spinning. (When giving a
BFR, do something fun for the instructor!) With the spin weights on,
it stalls and spins beautifully. With the spin weights off, the solo
student is much less likely to get in trouble. The spin weights hang
out in the breeze where you can't possibly fail to notice them.

John Cochrane

[Kevin Christner]

On Oct 22, 11:53*pm, RRK > wrote:
> On Oct 21, 11:57*pm, bildan > wrote:
>
>
>
> > I've flown both and while the PW-6 is a very nice glider, it's not in
> > the same league as the ASK-21.
>
> "bildan"
> * * * * * * * would you elaborate a little bit more on your's opinion.
> You stated that *PW-6 is in the different league than K-21. Why?
> Since you flown both of them, *I'm sure it will be easy to justified
> you conclusion.
> Could you share it with us ? Please.
> RRK

Two important (and somewhat related) factors to consider when making
such a large investment are factory support and resale value. I have
much more confidence that Schleicher will be around in 10 years than
whoever is currently building PW5/PW6 as it seems this has changed on
a semi-annual or so basis over the past 10 years. Such confidence
will tend to keep resale values high.

KJC

[bildan]

On Oct 23, 9:54*am, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
> Thanks to all the replies - both online and direct. *Now comes the
> hard part - convincing the old guard that it's time to retire the 2-33
> and move on.

It's really inevitable. Whether it's an onerous AD or just members
moving to clubs with better gliders, the 2-33's days are numbered.
The trick is not to be the guys holding the bag when the 2-33 is
grounded like the unfortunate L-13 owners. One ding or bit of
corrosion in an unobtanium wing strut grounds a 2-33 - probably
forever.

The smart folks are moving on.

[[email protected][_2_]]

But, but, but, you could have a bakers dozen 2-33s for the price of
one ASK-21. Someone had to say it first. Good luck getting a club
caught up to the present.

[bildan]

On Oct 23, 11:41*am, " >
wrote:
> But, but, but, you could have a bakers dozen 2-33s for the price of
> one ASK-21. *Someone had to say it first. *Good luck getting a club
> caught up to the present.

You could also probably build even more primary gliders for the same
money but what's the point.

Some clubs won't move on - they'll just die. I know of a couple of
L-13 clubs which may not survive the grounding of that glider. That's
a cautionary tale - don't get stuck with a grounded glider which has
minimal factory support.

I've been through this before. Back in the late 50's, most US clubs
were flying WW2 training gliders like LK's, TG-3's or Pratt Reads.
Why, clubs asked, should we abandon our $1000 gliders for then hugely
expensive Schweizers? That was a difficult sell particularly since
the WW2 trainers were actually much better gliders with a ~10 point L/
D advantage.

In the end, the old wooden gliders just couldn't be maintained. The
only alternative to the metal Schweizers were still more wooden
gliders like the Ka-7, Kranich's or Bergfalke's from Germany. Given a
US industrial base skilled in metal, Schweizer was the only game in
town.

Today, we have a wide choice of excellent trainers which are
relatively speaking, no more expensive than Schweizers were then.
Suck it up and write the check.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Oct 23, 10:41*am, " >
wrote:
> But, but, but, you could have a bakers dozen 2-33s for the price of
> one ASK-21. *Someone had to say it first. *Good luck getting a club
> caught up to the present.

(Just because I can't pass up on a metaphor).

I'd rather have a nice BLT than a bakers dozen stale buns.

Darryl

[SF]

I have given instruction and rides in a 2-33, and a Grob 103. The
ASK-21's I have flown were close enough to the Grob to make any
difference in flying them inconsequential. I hated every minute I
spent in the 2-33. Flying pig comes to mind when thinking of the
2-33. The rear seat is very uncomfortable in the 2-33. Going away
from the airport in the 2-33 is not for the faint of heart, glide
ratio of a brick. It is much easier to teach someone to fly the 2-33
than the Grob. Transitioning someone from the 2-33 to the Grob is
more difficult than one would first think. Students trained in the
Grob have very little difficulty transitioning to a single place glass
ship, stepping out of a 2-33 into a single place glass ship would be a
pretty big challenge for most low time pilots. If the goal of the club
is to hook people on the sport, train cross country pilots, and get
the cross country pilots in to competition flying, then sell the 2-33
to someone who does not know any better, and buy the ASK 21, or better
yet a Duo Discus. Resale value, and being able to get parts over the
expected 35 year life of the aircraft should make one pause before
buying a PW6.

SF

[Mike Schumann]

On 10/23/2010 11:54 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
> Thanks to all the replies - both online and direct. Now comes the
> hard part - convincing the old guard that it's time to retire the 2-33
> and move on.
>
> As far as the suggestion to get a motorglider - not interested. It
> may be the perfect plane for some people& clubs, but not for ours.
>
> I've considered the PW-6 and looked at one (did not get to fly it,
> unfortunately) and it's an interesting little glider - second on my
> list. I confess to a lot of time in K-21s, including giving
> commercial acro rides, and really like the way it flies. And it's a
> tough ship - far stronger than the Grob 103, IMO.
>
> Again, thanks for the feedback; hopefully at some time in the future
> I'll be able to report the purchase of a new glider...
>
> Kirk
> 66

The other thing I would consider is fleet commonality. Not only does
this simplify maintenance, but it is also a safety issue. The typical
club pilot only flies maybe 10-20 flights per season.

If you have a variety of different ships, and members fly them randomly,
a pilot will never be really current in the plane he/she is flying.
There's a big plus to always having all the controls and instruments in
the same location when you get into trouble.

--
Mike Schumann

[Andy[_1_]]

On Oct 23, 2:01*pm, SF > wrote:
>The ASK-21's I have flown were close enough to the Grob to make any
>difference in flying them inconsequential

That surprises me. The control feel or harmony of the K-21 is, in my
opinion, far superior to the G103 (either the twin pig or the Acro)
and the retract gear version is a killer in the back seat. About the
only thing to dislike about the K-21 is the rear canopy.

Andy (GY)

[Burt Compton - Marfa]

A new ASK-21 will arrive in January 2011 at Marfa Gliders Soaring
Center in southwest Texas.

For sale after my K-21 arrives:
My Blanik L-23 with huge collection of spare parts (most new and
unused) including a complete set of new L-23 canopies (in frames),
wheels, tailwheels, brakes, shock struts and much more. 1846 hours as
of OCT 1, 2010. Come fly it / inspect it -- in my hangar at MRF
airport. I'll probably keep my big enclosed Blanik trailer, so I
might deliver the L-23 to a buyer, sometime in 2011. Private e-mail
inquiries only for more details.

[Mike Ash]

In article
>,
Andy > wrote:

> On Oct 23, 2:01*pm, SF > wrote:
> >The ASK-21's I have flown were close enough to the Grob to make any
> >difference in flying them inconsequential
>
> That surprises me. The control feel or harmony of the K-21 is, in my
> opinion, far superior to the G103 (either the twin pig or the Acro)
> and the retract gear version is a killer in the back seat. About the
> only thing to dislike about the K-21 is the rear canopy.

I agree. My club has one of each, and I much prefer to fly the ASK-21
even though I'm a large guy and the Grob has a significantly more
comfortable cockpit for my size. It flies well enough, and transitioning
from the ASK-21 to the Grob during my training was pretty
straightforward, but it just gets to be tiring to fly in thermals or
bumpy conditions.

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

[GliderDriver]

On Oct 23, 10:33*am, bildan > wrote:
> On Oct 23, 12:53*am, RRK > wrote:
>
> > On Oct 21, 11:57*pm, bildan > wrote:
>
> > > I've flown both and while the PW-6 is a very nice glider, it's not in
> > > the same league as the ASK-21.
>
> > "bildan"
> > * * * * * * * would you elaborate a little bit more on your's opinion.
> > You stated that *PW-6 is in the different league than K-21. Why?
> > Since you flown both of them, *I'm sure it will be easy to justified
> > you conclusion.
> > Could you share it with us ? Please.
> > RRK
>
> It's just my humble opinion. *To me the ASK-21 feels more solid, more
> rugged. *The ASK-21's larger wing seems to hold on to weak lift better
> and the controls are better harmonized. *The 21's cockpit is bigger.
> I love the docile stall behavior.

Another factor is the rear cockpit. We (TSA) evaluated a PW-6 early
on (2003?). Most instructors disliked the rear cockpit. It very much
felt like an afterthought: cramped, poor forward visibility and
communication with the front-seater because of the tall instrument
panel. We now own three ASK-21's. They earn their keep.

[Nyal Williams[_2_]]

I would not want to train students in the PW-6 owing to its stall
characteristics. I had one flight three years ago and we did acro in it.
Perhaps it is the all-flying stabilizer, but there is etreme buffeting if
you approach the stall slowly -- so much so that the stick will jerk
backward and forward in your hand a couple of knots above stall. What
would your low-time student do in his own single seater if he always
expected this kind of warning to keep him out of trouble?





At 16:40 24 October 2010, GliderDriver wrote:
>On Oct 23, 10:33=A0am, bildan wrote:
>> On Oct 23, 12:53=A0am, RRK wrote:
>>
>> > On Oct 21, 11:57=A0pm, bildan wrote:
>>
>> > > I've flown both and while the PW-6 is a very nice glider, it's
not
>in
>> > > the same league as the ASK-21.
>>
>> > "bildan"
>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 would you elaborate a little bit more on
>yo=
>ur's opinion.
>> > You stated that =A0PW-6 is in the different league than K-21. Why?
>> > Since you flown both of them, =A0I'm sure it will be easy to
justified
>> > you conclusion.
>> > Could you share it with us ? Please.
>> > RRK
>>
>> It's just my humble opinion. =A0To me the ASK-21 feels more solid,
more
>> rugged. =A0The ASK-21's larger wing seems to hold on to weak lift
better
>> and the controls are better harmonized. =A0The 21's cockpit is
bigger.
>> I love the docile stall behavior.
>
>Another factor is the rear cockpit. We (TSA) evaluated a PW-6 early
>on (2003?). Most instructors disliked the rear cockpit. It very much
>felt like an afterthought: cramped, poor forward visibility and
>communication with the front-seater because of the tall instrument
>panel. We now own three ASK-21's. They earn their keep.
>
>

[Charles Yeates]

1. After 600 hours in a PW-6, I have NEVER experienced the stall
characteristics you describe.
2. what acro did you do -- limits are no inverted maneuvers

Your one flight experience seems strange . Where was it?

"Nyal Williams" > wrote in message
...
>I would not want to train students in the PW-6 owing to its stall
> characteristics. I had one flight three years ago and we did acro in it.
> Perhaps it is the all-flying stabilizer, but there is etreme buffeting if
> you approach the stall slowly -- so much so that the stick will jerk
> backward and forward in your hand a couple of knots above stall.
>
>
>
>
> At 16:40 24 October 2010, GliderDriver wrote:
>>On Oct 23, 10:33=A0am, bildan wrote:
>>> On Oct 23, 12:53=A0am, RRK wrote:
>>>
>>> > On Oct 21, 11:57=A0pm, bildan wrote:
>>>
>>> > > I've flown both and while the PW-6 is a very nice glider, it's
> not
>>in
>>> > > the same league as the ASK-21.
>>>
>>> > "bildan"
>>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 would you elaborate a little bit more on
>>yo=
>>ur's opinion.
>>> > You stated that =A0PW-6 is in the different league than K-21. Why?
>>> > Since you flown both of them, =A0I'm sure it will be easy to
> justified
>>> > you conclusion.
>>> > Could you share it with us ? Please.
>>> > RRK
>>>
>>> It's just my humble opinion. =A0To me the ASK-21 feels more solid,
> more
>>> rugged. =A0The ASK-21's larger wing seems to hold on to weak lift
> better
>>> and the controls are better harmonized. =A0The 21's cockpit is
> bigger.
>>> I love the docile stall behavior.
>>
>>Another factor is the rear cockpit. We (TSA) evaluated a PW-6 early
>>on (2003?). Most instructors disliked the rear cockpit. It very much
>>felt like an afterthought: cramped, poor forward visibility and
>>communication with the front-seater because of the tall instrument
>>panel. We now own three ASK-21's. They earn their keep.
>>
>>
>

[kd6veb]

Hi Gang
I have only about 6 hours in the PW6 but have flown maybe 30 other
gliders and motor gliders. To be able to fly solo in the PW6per club
rules I had to demonstrate stalls and recovery from spins. There
absolutely was no extreme buffeting as I approached stall. In fact my
take on the PW6 was that both its stall and spin recovery
characteristics are benign. It is an ideal glider for instruction
unlike the 21 which will not normally spin unless weighted down in the
rear. So what do I conclude? If the buffeting on a particular PW6 was
as described there was something very wrong with that PW6.
Dave


On Oct 26, 6:51*am, "Charles Yeates" > wrote:
> 1. After 600 hours in a PW-6, I have NEVER experienced *the stall
> characteristics you describe.
> 2. what acro did you do -- limits are no inverted maneuvers
>
> Your one flight experience seems strange . Where was it?
>
> "Nyal Williams" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >I would not want to train students in the PW-6 owing to its stall
> > characteristics. *I had one flight three years ago and we did acro in it.
> > Perhaps it is the all-flying stabilizer, but there is etreme buffeting if
> > you approach the stall slowly -- so much so that the stick will jerk
> > backward and forward in your hand a couple of knots above stall.
>