Arcus Mass Balance / Control forces

[Peter F[_2_]]

Hi All,

DG claim that the heavier controls on the DG1000 / 1001, compared to the
Duo are due to changes in the flutter requirements imposed on them by the
FAA. They claim that any new designs would have to meet these new
requirements and so the light control forces of the Duo would be unable to
be replicated in any new designs.

Schempp Hirth have a new design, the Arcus.

So...

Does the Arcus have the light controls of the Duo?
Does it meet the Flutter requirements of the FAA?
Are S-H just better at designing control systems than DG?

PF

(Not in a position to buy Duo / Arcus or DG1001, just curious!)

[Andreas Maurer]

On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:53:10 +0000, Peter F >
wrote:


>DG claim that the heavier controls on the DG1000 / 1001, compared to the
>Duo are due to changes in the flutter requirements imposed on them by the
>FAA. They claim that any new designs would have to meet these new
>requirements and so the light control forces of the Duo would be unable to
>be replicated in any new designs.

As usual, the DG marketing is lacking.
The cause for the seemingly lighter controls of the Duo Discus is
simply its extremely long stick und huge deflection angles.


>Does the Arcus have the light controls of the Duo?
Yes.

>Does it meet the Flutter requirements of the FAA?
Obviously.

>Are S-H just better at designing control systems than DG?

Nope... they simply just have better marketing... and a longer stick.
:)


Andreas

[Dave Nadler]

On Oct 22, 6:53*am, Peter F > wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> DG claim that the heavier controls on the DG1000 / 1001, compared to the
> Duo are due to changes in the flutter requirements imposed on them by the
> FAA.

FAA has nothing to do with this. You mean EASA...

> They claim that any new designs would have to meet these new
> requirements and so the light control forces of the Duo would be unable to
> be replicated in any new designs.

No.

>
> Schempp Hirth have a new design, the Arcus.
>
> So...
>
> Does the Arcus have the light controls of the Duo?

I haven't flown Arcus yet, but by reputation control forces are
a bit lighter than Duo.

> Does it meet the Flutter requirements of the FAA?

Not sure but I believe Arcus has already received EASA certification.

> Are S-H just better at designing control systems than DG?

Until you fly an Antares, you don't know what
a good control system with light forces is.
Try moving the stick on an Antares on the
ground sometime. Really.

> PF
>
> (Not in a position to buy Duo / Arcus or DG1001, just curious!)

Ready to help you with an order for an Arcus Electric,
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"

[Peter F[_2_]]

At 12:51 22 October 2010, Dave Nadler wrote:
>On Oct 22, 6:53=A0am, Peter F wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> DG claim that the heavier controls on the DG1000 / 1001, compared to
the
>> Duo are due to changes in the flutter requirements imposed on them by
>the
>> FAA.
>
>FAA has nothing to do with this. You mean EASA...
>

According to DG it was a stipulation by the FAA

http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/dg1000-flattern-e.html

...

>>
>> (Not in a position to buy Duo / Arcus or DG1001, just curious!)
>
>Ready to help you with an order for an Arcus Electric,
>Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"
>
It'll be a long wait, 2nd hand Arcus unlikely to be in my price bracket
'til 2030.
But there's always the change of a lottery win at odds of 14 million to 1
against

PF

[soarboy]

On Oct 22, 5:28*am, Andreas Maurer > wrote:

> >Does it meet the Flutter requirements of the FAA?
>
> Obviously.
>
> >Are S-H just better at designing control systems than DG?
>
> Nope... they simply just have better marketing... and a longer stick.
> :)
>
> Andreas

Goes to show you: Walk Softly and carry a Big Stick

[Barry[_4_]]

On Oct 22, 5:40*pm, soarboy > wrote:
> On Oct 22, 5:28*am, Andreas Maurer > wrote:
>
> > >Does it meet the Flutter requirements of the FAA?
>
> > Obviously.
>
> > >Are S-H just better at designing control systems than DG?
>
> > Nope... they simply just have better marketing... and a longer stick.
> > :)
>
> > Andreas
>
> Goes to show you: Walk Softly and carry a Big Stick

My experience is the controls are lighter on the Arcus vs the Duo

ARC

[Bruce Hoult]

On Oct 22, 11:53*pm, Peter F > wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> DG claim that the heavier controls on the DG1000 / 1001, compared to the
> Duo

I've flown both a Duo (once) and DG1000 (frequently), but not back to
back. The DG1000 has heavy controls? In what universe? It's *far*
lighter than the Janus (especially!) and Twin Astirs we had before the
DG1000s.

[Derek C]

On Oct 23, 8:08*am, Bruce Hoult > wrote:
> On Oct 22, 11:53*pm, Peter F > wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
>
> > DG claim that the heavier controls on the DG1000 / 1001, compared to the
> > Duo
>
> I've flown both a Duo (once) and DG1000 (frequently), but not back to
> back. The DG1000 has heavy controls? In what universe? It's *far*
> lighter than the Janus (especially!) and Twin Astirs we had before the
> DG1000s.

Heavier stick loads are better for ham fisted glider pilots. Schempp-
Hirth gliders typically have very light controls, especially the
Standard Cirrus. I personally like flying both the DG1000 and the Duo
Discus. The only issue I have with the handling of the DG1000 is the
stick mounted spring trimmer lever which doesn't work properly. I
won't even mention its carp (anag) retractable undercarriage. Oh
sorry, I just did!

Derek C

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sat, 23 Oct 2010 00:08:45 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote:

>
> I've flown both a Duo (once) and DG1000 (frequently), but not back to
> back. The DG1000 has heavy controls? In what universe? It's *far*
> lighter than the Janus (especially!) and Twin Astirs we had before the
> DG1000s.
>
In 2003 I flew the DG1000 at Omarama pretty much straight after one of
the Twin Astirs at Paraparam (OK I had my first flight in a PW5 and a Std
Libelle in between, but who is counting) and remember thinking the
DG1000 controls were heavy in roll for the first 20 minutes of the
flight. After that I thought it flew like a big single seater. I think
exactly the same about a Puchacz if I haven't flown one for a while.

I wouldn't say that the Twin Astir or the G103 Acro II have heavy
controls, more that they're unresponsive compared to, say, an ASK-21,
Puchacz, DG-500 or even an Acro III.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[ventus2[_2_]]

>> Are S-H just better at designing control systems than DG?

Yes, but lets not limit that to just control systems. :-p

> Until you fly an Antares, you don't know what
> a good control system with light forces is.
> Try moving the stick on an Antares on the
> ground sometime. Really.

I think you may see some cross influence down the line with Lange and
Schempps, so that the difference in control force assumptions will be
negligible.

Chris

[Kevin Neave[_2_]]

At 12:28 22 October 2010, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:53:10 +0000, Peter F
>wrote:
>
>
>>DG claim that the heavier controls on the DG1000 / 1001, compared to
the
>>Duo are due to changes in the flutter requirements imposed on them by
the
>>FAA.
>>Are S-H just better at designing control systems than DG?
>
>Nope... they simply just have better marketing... and a longer stick.
>:)
>
>
>Andreas
>

Doesn't having the correct length of stick count as "Better at designing
control systems"?

By biggest issue with the DG505 (And DG1000 is similar) is lack of pedal
adjustment in the rear

Kevin