Engine rebuild costs

[Z1]

Does anyone have an idea of costs on a engine reuild / new engine for:

DG800/Ventus vs ASH26E

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 11/5/2010 12:51 PM, Z1 wrote:
> Does anyone have an idea of costs on a engine reuild / new engine for:
>
> DG800/Ventus vs ASH26E
>

You should contact Schleicher or Diamond Engines about the ASH 26 E
engine, as I think they are the only sources of new or rebuilt engines.
I'm sure it will cost more than the Solo engine for the other two
gliders, but I don't know what the costs are: after 15 years and 150
hours (and 3000 on the glider), my ASH 26 E is still purring away.

What is your interest in these engines? If you are thinking of getting a
self-launcher, I suggest you go here to find the owner's group for the
ASH 26 E:

ASH 26E owners group <http://groups.google.com/group/ASH-26E?lnk=li&pli=1>

Here is the group for self-launchers in general, the Auxiliary-powered
Sailplane Association:

www.motorglider.org

It also has a discussion group, which you can find in the menu on the site.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

[Z1]

On Nov 6, 9:59*am, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> On 11/5/2010 12:51 PM, Z1 wrote:
>
> What is your interest in these engines? If you are thinking of getting a
> self-launcher, I suggest you go here to find the owner's group for the
> ASH 26 E:
>
>

There's alot of these motorgliders for sale at the mo.. just after the
pro's/con's of the motors.

Thanks Eric for your reply i will chk the link provided...

[sisu1a]

> There's alot of these motorgliders for sale at the mo.. just after the
> pro's/con's of the motors.

Don't have any of them myself... but I hear as much praise about the
26's setup as I've heard about problems with the rest. Speaking from
an anecdotal standpoint, the 26's Wankel arrangement seems superior.
Of course the electric option seems a superior choice to the Wankel,
and would certainly be my first choice if it were an option...

-Paul

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 11/5/2010 8:58 PM, sisu1a wrote:
>> There's alot of these motorgliders for sale at the mo.. just after the
>> pro's/con's of the motors.
>>
> Don't have any of them myself... but I hear as much praise about the
> 26's setup as I've heard about problems with the rest. Speaking from
> an anecdotal standpoint, the 26's Wankel arrangement seems superior.
> Of course the electric option seems a superior choice to the Wankel,
> and would certainly be my first choice if it were an option...
>
The much lower vibration of the Wankel rotary, compared to the two
stroke engines, greatly reduces vibration induced problems. Of course,
there is much more to a motorglider than the propulsion system, and the
26 E owner's group is a good place to discover these.

And please note the link to the "Guide" below. It's an excellent
resource for people that want to, or are already operating
self-launching sailplanes.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

[soarpilot]

On Nov 6, 12:07*am, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> On 11/5/2010 8:58 PM, sisu1a wrote:>> There's alot of these motorgliders for sale at the mo.. just after the
> >> pro's/con's of the motors.
>
> > Don't have any of them myself... but I hear as much praise about the
> > 26's setup as I've heard about problems with the rest. Speaking from
> > an anecdotal standpoint, the 26's Wankel arrangement seems superior.
> > Of course the electric option seems a superior choice to the Wankel,
> > and would certainly be my first choice if it were an option...
>
> The much lower vibration of the Wankel rotary, compared to the two
> stroke engines, greatly reduces vibration induced problems. Of course,
> there is much more to a motorglider than the propulsion system, and the
> 26 E owner's group is a good place to discover these.
>
> And please note the link to the "Guide" below. It's an excellent
> resource for people that want to, or are already operating
> self-launching sailplanes.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

Funny how when someone asks anything in aviation regarding costs, the
responses are so much like a politician's meanderings, never answering
the question. I know it is highly variable, I get that ... but does
ANYONE any longer answer a question rather than giving a reference?
Someone give the guy a figure please! even if its a long shot rough
estimate.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 11/7/2010 10:39 AM, soarpilot wrote:
> On Nov 6, 12:07 am, Eric > wrote:
>
> Funny how when someone asks anything in aviation regarding costs, the
> responses are so much like a politician's meanderings, never answering
> the question. I know it is highly variable, I get that ... but does
> ANYONE any longer answer a question rather than giving a reference?
> Someone give the guy a figure please! even if its a long shot rough
> estimate.
>

Sorry, but a bad guess was not going to help the original poster, and I
didn't want affect anyone's decision (including those just reading these
postings) with poor information.

If the answer to a question is important to you, you should go to the
source and get a *good* answer. His question was just a starting point
in a process to determine if self-launchers were for him, and if so,
which one might be the best fit. My answers were offered to aid that
process.

For someone with simple curiosity like yourself, the "long shot rough
estimate" answer is "a lot" ;-)

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

[soarpilot]

On Nov 7, 2:10*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> On 11/7/2010 10:39 AM, soarpilot wrote:
>
> > On Nov 6, 12:07 am, Eric > *wrote:
>
> > Funny how when someone asks anything in aviation regarding costs, the
> > responses are so much like a politician's meanderings, never answering
> > the question. *I know it is highly variable, I get that ... but does
> > ANYONE any longer answer a question rather than giving a reference?
> > Someone give the guy a figure please! *even if its a long shot rough
> > estimate.
>
> Sorry, but a bad guess was not going to help the original poster, and I
> didn't want affect anyone's decision (including those just reading these
> postings) with poor information.
>
> If the answer to a question is important to you, you should go to the
> source and get a *good* answer. His question was just a starting point
> in a process to determine if self-launchers were for him, and if so,
> which one might be the best fit. My answers were offered to aid that
> process.
>
> For someone with simple curiosity like yourself, the "long shot rough
> estimate" answer is "a lot" ;-)
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarmhttp://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

See? a lot...there you go. At least that gives SOME information
rather than, well .... we'll let it go at that. Althouh, a lot is
relative and still ...

[JJ Sinclair]

.... but does
> ANYONE any longer answer a question rather than giving a reference?
> Someone give the guy a figure please! *even if its a long shot rough

In the recent ASH-26 engine recall, it cost about $2800.00 to remove,
crate, ship, disassemble engine, replace crank, re-assemble, re-crate,
ship, install and test run the engine.
JJ

[Craig[_2_]]

On Nov 8, 6:04*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> ... but does
>
> > ANYONE any longer answer a question rather than giving a reference?
> > Someone give the guy a figure please! *even if its a long shot rough
>
> In the recent ASH-26 engine recall, it cost about $2800.00 to remove,
> crate, ship, disassemble engine, replace crank, re-assemble, re-crate,
> ship, install and test run the engine.
> JJ

What were the reasons for the ASH-26 engine recall?

Thanks,
Craig

[Darryl Ramm]

On Nov 8, 9:29*am, Craig > wrote:
> On Nov 8, 6:04*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
>
> > ... but does
>
> > > ANYONE any longer answer a question rather than giving a reference?
> > > Someone give the guy a figure please! *even if its a long shot rough
>
> > In the recent ASH-26 engine recall, it cost about $2800.00 to remove,
> > crate, ship, disassemble engine, replace crank, re-assemble, re-crate,
> > ship, install and test run the engine.
> > JJ
>
> What were the reasons for the ASH-26 engine recall?
>
> Thanks,
> Craig


First - The reason for a recall of some of the AE50R engines was a
faulty dowel pin weld and is well documented on Schelicher's web site.
Anybody interested can read the service bulletin there.

The $2,800 cost that JJ mentioned is likely to give a serious
underestimate of costs of a significant service/rebuild on an AR50R
engine as used in the ASH-26E and I don't think is that relevant to
the question that was asked.

That $2,800 cost quoted was for work several owners (including me) had
done at the same time (and I'm not even going to bother going to check
what my actual cost was). That cost covered the removal of an engine,
removal of accessories from the core, constructing a custom crate,
airfreight shipping from the West Coast of the USA to Austro Engines
in Austria, return airfreight shipping, reassembling the engine core
and accessories, test running the complete engine in a test stand,
reinstalling the engine in the glider, etc.

Several owners in the Western USA banded together to do this and get
it to happen as quickly as possible working though Williams Soaring
who have a lot of expertise on the ASH-26E. Eastern Sailplane did
something similar for affected owners in the eastern part of the USA.
Overall I felt we got great support from Williams Soaring, Eastern
Sailplane and Schleicher.

The cost quoted did not include the replacement parts, engine core
teardown and reassembly or test running at Austro Engines (the engine
manufacturer). So it really gives little relevant information about
the cost of a serious engine rebuild/replacement.

Since I know which glider JJ is referring to the price mentioned was
for a glider no longer in warranty from Schleicher - those owners
(including me) picked up the periperal costs I mentioned above but
Austro still paid for the engine parts and core engine work. For
gliders in warranty Schleicher covered more or all of the costs.

Again I see these as largely irrelevant costs that don't really
answerer the original question, except if anything I'd point out with
a realtively maintenance heavy (compared to a conventional glider)
motorglider you really want a community of other users either locally
or online, to share experiences with, access to knowledgeable service
facilities and vendors (glider and engine) who are responsive, still
in business and likely to remain in business. I've participated in
both the ASH-26E and DG-80x/Solo users groups and both are invaluable
sources of information.

Costs of an AE50R major rebuild/replacement will vary widely depending
on what damage and exactly how much of the accessories and ancillary
systems need to be replaced in any rebuild. I would guess a
replacement engine is somewhere around $20k - but will vary widely
depending on exactly what needs to be replaced. But I am just
guessing. And I think there are probably more interesting questions
about buying/owning a motorglider (unless you are buying a motorglider
and know/really suspect the engine is dead - in which case go work up
a real quote with a service center).

I recommend reading the self launch glider guide Eric put together and
mentioned in this threat and finding owners of motorgliders similar to
the types you are interested in and going spending time talking to
them about the benefits/disadvantages of owning a motorglider and the
peculiarities of their particular type. I've noticed so many
misconceptions and misunderstandings about motorgliders that nothing
beats finding a friendly owner who is willing to spend a few hours
talking with you.


Darryl

[Frank Whiteley]

On Nov 8, 10:29*am, Craig > wrote:
> On Nov 8, 6:04*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
>
> > ... but does
>
> > > ANYONE any longer answer a question rather than giving a reference?
> > > Someone give the guy a figure please! *even if its a long shot rough
>
> > In the recent ASH-26 engine recall, it cost about $2800.00 to remove,
> > crate, ship, disassemble engine, replace crank, re-assemble, re-crate,
> > ship, install and test run the engine.
> > JJ
>
> What were the reasons for the ASH-26 engine recall?
>
> Thanks,
> Craig

crank?

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 11/8/2010 8:41 PM, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Nov 8, 10:29 am, > wrote:
>
>>
>>> In the recent ASH-26 engine recall, it cost about $2800.00 to remove,
>>> crate, ship, disassemble engine, replace crank, re-assemble, re-crate,
>>> ship, install and test run the engine.
>>> JJ
>>>
>> What were the reasons for the ASH-26 engine recall?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Craig
>>
> crank?
>

Yes, the rotor turns around the crankshaft, driving it with gear teeth.
The crankshaft delivers the power to the belt that drives the propeller.
Here's a good description of the Wankel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine


--

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

[Darryl Ramm]

On Nov 8, 9:23*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> On 11/8/2010 8:41 PM, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>
> > On Nov 8, 10:29 am, > *wrote:
>
> >>> In the recent ASH-26 engine recall, it cost about $2800.00 to remove,
> >>> crate, ship, disassemble engine, replace crank, re-assemble, re-crate,
> >>> ship, install and test run the engine.
> >>> JJ
>
> >> What were the reasons for the ASH-26 engine recall?
>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Craig
>
> > crank?
>
> Yes, the rotor turns around the crankshaft, driving it with gear teeth.
> The crankshaft delivers the power to the belt that drives the propeller.
> Here's a good description of the Wankel:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine
>
> --
>
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarmhttp://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

Oh the drive shaft. I thought he was talking about JJ. :-)

[Crank shaft | drive shaft | eccentric shaft] are perfectly
interchangeable names.

Darryl

[Dave Nadler]

On Nov 5, 2:51*pm, Z1 > wrote:
> Does anyone have an idea of costs on a engine reuild / new engine for:
>
> *DG800/Ventus vs ASH26E

Ignore these guys !
The real answer is:
"If you have to ask..."

Contact me for info about a motorglider
with less likelihood of needing engine rebuild ;-)

Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"

PS: Latest Antares 20E owner in USA just put his
glider away for the winter. He received the glider
in June 2009, and has already flown it 475 hours
(including winning a couple days at the Sports Nats).
Only required maintenance ?
Pause, Ready, drum-roll...

Add air to the tires.

[Andy[_10_]]

On Nov 9, 5:26*am, Dave Nadler > wrote:
> On Nov 5, 2:51*pm, Z1 > wrote:
>
> > Does anyone have an idea of costs on a engine reuild / new engine for:
>
> > *DG800/Ventus vs ASH26E
>
> Ignore these guys !
> The real answer is:
> "If you have to ask..."
>
> Contact me for info about a motorglider
> with less likelihood of needing engine rebuild ;-)
>
> Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"
>
> PS: Latest Antares 20E owner in USA just put his
> glider away for the winter. He received the glider
> in June 2009, and has already flown it 475 hours
> (including winning a couple days at the Sports Nats).
> Only required maintenance ?
> Pause, Ready, drum-roll...
>
> Add air to the tires.

It runs on air pressure? ;-)

9B

[Dave Nadler]

On Nov 9, 9:17*am, Andy > wrote:
> On Nov 9, 5:26*am, Dave Nadler > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 5, 2:51*pm, Z1 > wrote:
>
> > > Does anyone have an idea of costs on a engine reuild / new engine for:
>
> > > *DG800/Ventus vs ASH26E
>
> > Ignore these guys !
> > The real answer is:
> > "If you have to ask..."
>
> > Contact me for info about a motorglider
> > with less likelihood of needing engine rebuild ;-)
>
> > Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"
>
> > PS: Latest Antares 20E owner in USA just put his
> > glider away for the winter. He received the glider
> > in June 2009, and has already flown it 475 hours
> > (including winning a couple days at the Sports Nats).
> > Only required maintenance ?
> > Pause, Ready, drum-roll...
>
> > Add air to the tires.
>
> It runs on air pressure? *;-)
>
> 9B

Plugging it in at night is "fueling", not "maintenance"...

[Andy[_10_]]

On Nov 9, 6:47*am, Dave Nadler > wrote:
> On Nov 9, 9:17*am, Andy > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 9, 5:26*am, Dave Nadler > wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 5, 2:51*pm, Z1 > wrote:
>
> > > > Does anyone have an idea of costs on a engine reuild / new engine for:
>
> > > > *DG800/Ventus vs ASH26E
>
> > > Ignore these guys !
> > > The real answer is:
> > > "If you have to ask..."
>
> > > Contact me for info about a motorglider
> > > with less likelihood of needing engine rebuild ;-)
>
> > > Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"
>
> > > PS: Latest Antares 20E owner in USA just put his
> > > glider away for the winter. He received the glider
> > > in June 2009, and has already flown it 475 hours
> > > (including winning a couple days at the Sports Nats).
> > > Only required maintenance ?
> > > Pause, Ready, drum-roll...
>
> > > Add air to the tires.
>
> > It runs on air pressure? *;-)
>
> > 9B
>
> Plugging it in at night is "fueling", not "maintenance"...

I know - I saw the big gasoline-powered generator sitting next to the
glider on the ramp.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Nov 9, 5:26*am, Dave Nadler > wrote:
> On Nov 5, 2:51*pm, Z1 > wrote:
>
> > Does anyone have an idea of costs on a engine reuild / new engine for:
>
> > *DG800/Ventus vs ASH26E
>
> Ignore these guys !
> The real answer is:
> "If you have to ask..."
>
> Contact me for info about a motorglider
> with less likelihood of needing engine rebuild ;-)
>
> Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"
>
> PS: Latest Antares 20E owner in USA just put his
> glider away for the winter. He received the glider
> in June 2009, and has already flown it 475 hours
> (including winning a couple days at the Sports Nats).
> Only required maintenance ?
> Pause, Ready, drum-roll...
>
> Add air to the tires.

And what does a full set of new batteries cost?

Cruise range?

Price new?

If I see somebody with his head inside his electric glider saying
something about "bad cells", rebalancing blah blah blah what does that
mean?

All motorgliders have operational issues/limitations and all involve
more maintenance than conventional gliders and I hope all purchasers
go into this with their eyes open.

Now don't get me wrong, I am happy to spend weeks test flying an
Antares and provide feedback - I won't even charge for my time.

Darryl