EPH Contest 2010 time elapsed grid and launch

[Frank Whiteley]

Posted on Facebook

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQRTQN3PpqQ&feature=autofb

[Bob]

Wonderful!

[jcarlyle]

Interesting filming technique - but that's the most disorganized, slap-
dash contest launch I've ever seen.

-John

On Nov 9, 12:43 am, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
> Posted on Facebook
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQRTQN3PpqQ&feature=autofb

[Gary Boggs]

Really? What was wrong with it? It looked pretty much like every
contest I've ever been to...

Boggs

On Nov 9, 4:32*am, jcarlyle > wrote:
> Interesting filming technique - but that's the most disorganized, slap-
> dash contest launch I've ever seen.
>
> -John

[Brad[_2_]]

On Nov 9, 8:51*am, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
> Really? *What was wrong with it? *It looked pretty much like every
> contest I've ever been to...
>
> Boggs
>
> On Nov 9, 4:32*am, jcarlyle > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Interesting filming technique - but that's the most disorganized, slap-
> > dash contest launch I've ever seen.
>
> > -John

I don't think he realized that the video was sped up.......be gentle
Gary.

Brad

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

Very nice!

I created a similar film a few years ago which is available here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6l0pFIGBYtk

Their new video is a true time-lapse film - which I prefer. My camcorder
did something similar, but not quite the same. It recorded for a fraction
of a second, then paused then repeated. That made the video jerky, but the
nice part is that it includes sound.

Paul Remde


"Frank Whiteley" > wrote in message
...
> Posted on Facebook
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQRTQN3PpqQ&feature=autofb

[Brian[_1_]]

On Nov 9, 5:32*am, jcarlyle > wrote:
> Interesting filming technique - but that's the most disorganized, slap-
> dash contest launch I've ever seen.
>
> -John
<snip>

A couple points. They were down one tow plane but still managed to
launch in about an hour.
Even with my relight.
Also the gliders at the end are not contest gliders launching.

Brian
HP16T N16VP

[jcarlyle]

In the contests I've flown we had a definite grid time, which occurred
well before the sniffer launches. If your plane wasn't there at grid
time, you went to the end of the line when you arrived. We also would
never let a tow plane wait. If you weren't ready to launch when the
tow plane came and you were number one, you'd be pushed out of the
grid and go to the end of the line. Further, no one would ever be
allowed to push a glider across an active runway after the launch had
started.

These things aren't being done in this video, which is why I called it
disorganized and slap-dash.

-John

[kirk.stant]

On Nov 9, 4:21*pm, jcarlyle > wrote:
> In the contests I've flown we had a definite grid time, which occurred
> well before the sniffer launches. If your plane wasn't there at grid
> time, you went to the end of the line when you arrived. We also would
> never let a tow plane wait. If you weren't ready to launch when the
> tow plane came and you were number one, you'd be pushed out of the
> grid and go to the end of the line. Further, no one would ever be
> allowed to push a glider across an active runway after the launch had
> started.

>
> These things aren't being done in this video, which is why I called it
> disorganized and slap-dash.
>
> -John

By your reasoning, one could argue that this launch was efficient and
resourceful.

Looked like a fun time to me.

Kirk
66

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 11/9/2010 2:21 PM, jcarlyle wrote:
> In the contests I've flown we had a definite grid time, which occurred
> well before the sniffer launches. If your plane wasn't there at grid
> time, you went to the end of the line when you arrived. We also would
> never let a tow plane wait. If you weren't ready to launch when the
> tow plane came and you were number one, you'd be pushed out of the
> grid and go to the end of the line. Further, no one would ever be
> allowed to push a glider across an active runway after the launch had
> started.
>
> These things aren't being done in this video, which is why I called it
> disorganized and slap-dash.
>

Well, they've been pushing gliders across that active runway during the
launch for at least 35 years, so it's more organized than it appears.
It's also a glider-only runway, and there are two other large runways
with landable taxiways for airplanes and gliders. All the contests I've
flown there, about 25 over a 30 year period, the gridding and launching
went the way you think it should. I wasn't there for the one in the
video, but it would be a surprise to me if it was disorganized and
slapdash - never was the times I flew there.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

[Discus 44]

So let me get this straight, you were not there, and you think this
was a disorganized launch for a contest...I disagree, I was there and
we did the launch just fine. The gliders at the end of the video were
not in the contest and were launching after the grid and relights.
Great job Mike for the video! If there is a slap-dash ness to this
show us a "proper grid launch time lapse video".

[jcarlyle]

Fans of the EPH “Grid Whenever It’s Convenient” concept are upset. I
understand - messengers are frequently shot. But it often takes an
outsider to see problems participants don’t.

As said before, on time gridding has a big benefit of not periodically
blocking an active runway during a 1 hour launch period. Another
benefit is the CD can call a pilot’s meeting at the grid, in case the
sniffers detect a problem and a task change is needed. Sure, the CD
could just tell whoever happens to be there, and hope word gets to
those who aren’t. But why jeopardize safety by doing GWIC - because
some pilots are too darn lazy and inconsiderate to arrive on time?

Most interesting is that no one is defending the GWIC concept - there
are just lame excuses (we’ve always done it this way, nothing has ever
happened, it looks like fun). That’s a sure sign that folks recognize
there’s a problem with GWIC.

Tell you what - send a copy of the video to EPH’s insurance carrier
and the local FSDO, with a note saying “this is how we do a contest
launch, isn’t it cool?” I suspect both will disagree, and will have a
few things to say that EPH won’t want to hear.

For Tom Udd, I can’t show you a time lapse of what I consider a good
launch. But look at “A Fine Week of Soaring” at 4:19 to 4:56, 19:35 to
21:10, 54:35 to 57:05, and 57:59 to 58:10. I’ve participated in
Mifflin launches 3 times (as crew and pilot), and it’s done
professionally, without GWIC. Show up this spring - you’ll see.

-John

[Brian[_1_]]

-John

Not Sure what you mean by Grid When It's Convienent, Or how you might
do it differently at Ephrata. One could certianly make it a lot more
complicated with no additional benefit.

I am not sure what you think you are seeing. The Launch does not start
until all gliders are grided. There are some relights that occur, me
included, that are staged back into the grid. Some between the two
classes that are launch and others at the end of the launch.

Gridding at Ephrata is simple due to the large open space. Since no
gliders are launched before grid time and it is a glider only runway,
the runway is effectively closed until after Grid time. I know the
FSDO was heavily involved in developing this system.

While I know there a many recent discussions about how this operation
works both with the FSDO and within the SGC. However I am sure if you
have a better suggestion it would be considered.

Should we all cross the runway at once?
Or would one at a time be better?
How else would you improve it?

Brian

[jcarlyle]

Brian,

I'm talking with Tom Udd off line, and he's added information I
couldn't get from the video. Once he and I get done, I'll post onto
this thread again.

Just looking at the video, my major objections are: (1) Seven aircraft
and numerous people and carts crossing the active runway from the time
the launch starts at 2:04 on the video clock, and (2) aircraft
apparently slotting into the contest grid who should have been there
when the grid formed.

I now understand that there were re-lights, and further that gridding
will in the future take place on the right side of the runway being
shown, so that no person or object has to cross an active runway. I
also understand there were non-contest pilots gridding, something I've
never experienced. I agree they should launch last, but I also think
they should grid with everyone else.

Hope this suffices for now, Brian. More later.

-John




On Nov 11, 2:42 pm, Brian > wrote:
> -John
>
> Not Sure what you mean by Grid When It's Convienent, Or how you might
> do it differently at Ephrata. One could certianly make it a lot more
> complicated with no additional benefit.
>
> I am not sure what you think you are seeing. The Launch does not start
> until all gliders are grided. There are some relights that occur, me
> included, that are staged back into the grid. Some between the two
> classes that are launch and others at the end of the launch.
>
> Gridding at Ephrata is simple due to the large open space. Since no
> gliders are launched before grid time and it is a glider only runway,
> the runway is effectively closed until after Grid time. I know the
> FSDO was heavily involved in developing this system.
>
> While I know there a many recent discussions about how this operation
> works both with the FSDO and within the SGC. However I am sure if you
> have a better suggestion it would be considered.
>
> Should we all cross the runway at once?
> Or would one at a time be better?
> How else would you improve it?
>
> Brian

[Craig[_2_]]

On Nov 9, 10:15*am, "Paul Remde" > wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Very nice!
>
> I created a similar film a few years ago which is available here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6l0pFIGBYtk
>
> Their new video is a true time-lapse film - which I prefer. *My camcorder
> did something similar, but not quite the same. *It recorded for a fraction
> of a second, then paused then repeated. *That made the video jerky, but the
> nice part is that it includes sound.
>
> Paul Remde
>
> "Frank Whiteley" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Posted on Facebook
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQRTQN3PpqQ&feature=autofb

John,

Some things you wouldn't have known from watching the video:

- The last 7 launches are non-contestants who launched after the
contest was finished (starting with the Jantar)
- Every contestant gridded on time and was there prior to starting
tows.
- There was a pilots meeting on the grid prior to tows starting.
- The first glider pulling into the middle of the line was a relight
that was placed at the end of his class.
- The second glider pulling into the middle of the line was another
relight and was placed at the end of the contestants line.

I think some were offended by your blanket condemnation prior to
knowing the entire situation. Our sport is hard enough to sustain
without beating on each other.

Best regards,
Craig Funston

[Nigel Pocock[_2_]]

Is it me or are they launching downwind? Look at the cloud shadows. Ok .
the wind is very light.
During the summer lasham does a grid launch for cross country pilots every
weekend. Often the grids are 40+
The grid is usually at one side of the airfield with
crews/marshalls/hangers-on/gawpers accessing form that side with all air
movements on the safe side.
The biggest I have seen was a 2 class national contest a few years ago.
110 gliders in 2 classes lanched in 62 minutes with 12 tugs. ( they then
stream launched another 35 gliders not in the contest)

[jcarlyle]

Tom, Craig, Brian,

Thanks for writing, off line and otherwise. I sincerely appreciate you
guys making the effort to try to understand why I didn’t think much of
the launch.

Crossing an active runway was the major thing that bothered me, and
caused me to think this was slap dash launch. The video shows seven
gliders, and numerous people and golf carts crossing the active runway
between the launch start and its end. As Tom explained off line, the
reasons for lining up on the left and needing to cross the runway are
historical and rational, but EPH club officials decided after the
contest shown in this video that grids will now occur on the right
side of the runway, so that no planes, people or golf carts will cross
the active runway again.

The other thing that bothered me was people coming late and slotting
into the already formed grid. This late joining bothered me because I
thought they were part of the contest, and it made things look
disorganized. Craig explained above that two were relights, and they
simply re-joined their respective class. The rest were non-contest
aircraft, lining up in back of the grid but not really a part of it.

Craig, you’re right - I should have proceeded more cautiously before
condemning the launch. It was poor judgment on my part - sorry.

Best regards,
John

[Craig[_2_]]

On Nov 12, 7:11*am, jcarlyle > wrote:
> Tom, Craig, Brian,
>
> Thanks for writing, off line and otherwise. I sincerely appreciate you
> guys making the effort to try to understand why I didn’t think much of
> the launch.
>
> Crossing an active runway was the major thing that bothered me, and
> caused me to think this was slap dash launch. The video shows seven
> gliders, and numerous people and golf carts crossing the active runway
> between the launch start and its end. As Tom explained off line, the
> reasons for lining up on the left and needing to cross the runway are
> historical and rational, but EPH club officials decided after the
> contest shown in this video that grids will now occur on the right
> side of the runway, so that no planes, people or golf carts will cross
> the active runway again.
>
> The other thing that bothered me was people coming late and slotting
> into the already formed grid. This late joining bothered me because I
> thought they were part of the contest, and it made things look
> disorganized. Craig explained above that two were relights, and they
> simply re-joined their respective class. The rest were non-contest
> aircraft, lining up in back of the grid but not really a part of it.
>
> Craig, you’re right - I should have proceeded more cautiously before
> condemning the launch. It was poor judgment on my part - sorry.
>
> Best regards,
> John

John,

Thanks for the note and for taking the slings and arrows with grace.
Come out and fly with us sometime!

Best regards,
Craig

[jcarlyle]

Thank you, Craig.

Back in the 80s when I was commuting to Battelle on business, I flew
several times with a family friend who had a contract to fly the
Hanford reservation fence. I remember his Super Cub being jolted
severely quite frequently, although I didn't know at the time it was
thermal activity. You guys have a great location for soaring! Maybe
someday I'll make it back with my LS8...

Best regards,
John

On Nov 12, 10:32 am, Craig > wrote:
> John,
>
> Thanks for the note and for taking the slings and arrows with grace.
> Come out and fly with us sometime!
>
> Best regards,
> Craig

[Gary Boggs]

I can't believe it! A happy ending on ras?

Boggs

[Andy[_10_]]

I thought it was really interesting and educational to watch the cus
form and decay and sometimes reform over the course of the launch. In
real time it usually happens too slowly to really appreciate.

9B

[Frank Whiteley]

On Nov 13, 3:17*pm, Andy > wrote:
> I thought it was really interesting and educational to watch the cus
> form and decay and sometimes reform over the course of the launch. In
> real time it usually happens too slowly to really appreciate.
>
> 9B

Good catch. In the UK on a good thermal day, I expected 5-6 cycles
with cloud base jumping 700-1000ft each cycle. Early in the day, it
paid to be high during the first couple. We'd head off XC with cloud
base 1800agl or so and tip toe club to club in case a re-light was
needed.

Frank Whiteley

[Andy[_10_]]

On Nov 13, 9:35*pm, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
> On Nov 13, 3:17*pm, Andy > wrote:
>
> > I thought it was really interesting and educational to watch the cus
> > form and decay and sometimes reform over the course of the launch. In
> > real time it usually happens too slowly to really appreciate.
>
> > 9B
>
> Good catch. *In the UK on a good thermal day, I expected 5-6 cycles
> with cloud base jumping 700-1000ft each cycle. *Early in the day, it
> paid to be high during the first couple. *We'd head off XC with cloud
> base 1800agl or so and tip toe club to club in case a re-light was
> needed.
>
> Frank Whiteley

The cycles in the video seemed exceptionally short - 5-10 minutes if I
estimated the time-lapse compression correctly at about 10:1-15:1. Of
course, it was the very beginning of the day. It would be fun to set
this up on a good day with cu and watch what happens over the course
of the entire day.

The main lesson for me is that thermals regularly and pretty quickly
reform in the same location. You might expect this in an area with
strong geographic features, by the area immediately around Ephrata is
reasonably uniform if memory serves.

9B