PowerFLARM bundled display

[Andy[_1_]]

An external display is optonally bundled with the "blind" PowerFLARM.

Early reports seemed to indicate that it would be a Butterfly panel
mounted display. Now other sources seem to show it is a stalk mounted
unit that is not compatible with a standard instrument hole.

Is the bundled display defined yet? If so, where are the specs?


thanks

Andy

[Darryl Ramm]

On Nov 10, 7:57*am, Andy > wrote:
> An external display is optonally bundled with the "blind" PowerFLARM.
>
> Early reports seemed to indicate that it would be a Butterfly panel
> mounted display. *Now other sources seem to show it is a stalk mounted
> unit that is not compatible with a standard instrument hole.
>
> Is the bundled display defined yet? *If so, where are the specs?
>
> thanks
>
> Andy

There are two display options. A rectangular butterfly display or one
for mounting in a stamdard 80mm hole. The rectangular display is the
"standard" external display with a brick. The round hole one costs a
bit more. The rectangular one can be flipped with the knob on either
side. Because it gives access to configuration settings and new
features in the PowerFLARM you really need one of these displays with
the brick, even if planning to use a third party display (e.g. SeeYou
Mobile or other soaring software on a PDA, a ClearNav etc.).

Pretty clear information on the display options is on Craggy Aero's
web site and Cumulus Soaring's web site and you can look at the
current Flarm versions of these displays (including German language
manuals, install templates etc.) on Butterfly's (the manufacturer of
PowerFLARM) web site. There are nice third party mount trays available
in Europe today for attaching the rectangular display to a glareshield
etc. I'll leave finding those Web sites as an exercise.

Other dealers are Williams Soaring and Knauff and Grove and I know
they can also answer questions on the display options as well. If you
want to order one and still have questions you might just want to
contact your favorite dealer.


Darryl

[Peter Scholz[_2_]]

Am 10.11.2010 17:13, Darryl Ramm wrote:

> There are two display options. A rectangular butterfly display or one
> for mounting in a stamdard 80mm hole.

The round butterfly display fits in a 57mm hole, not 80mm.
--
Peter Scholz
ASW24 JE

[Juanman]

Darryl,

Mind sparing us the work? :-)

C'mon, share what you found.

Juan


There are nice third party mount trays available
> in Europe today for attaching the rectangular display to a glareshield
> etc. I'll leave finding those Web sites as an exercise.

[Paul Remde]

Hi Andy,

You can see details and dimensions of the available options here:
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/flarm.htm

The 57 mm display is shown at the very bottom of the page. It is currently
not available "bundled" with the PowerFLARM Brick. It is an extra cost
option.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

"Andy" > wrote in message
...
> An external display is optonally bundled with the "blind" PowerFLARM.
>
> Early reports seemed to indicate that it would be a Butterfly panel
> mounted display. Now other sources seem to show it is a stalk mounted
> unit that is not compatible with a standard instrument hole.
>
> Is the bundled display defined yet? If so, where are the specs?
>
>
> thanks
>
> Andy
>

[Darryl Ramm]

On Nov 10, 9:17*am, Juanman > wrote:
> Darryl,
>
> Mind sparing us the work? *:-)
>
> C'mon, share what you found.
>
> Juan
>
> *There are nice third party mount trays available
>
> > in Europe today for attaching the rectangular display to a glareshield
> > etc. I'll leave finding those Web sites as an exercise.
>
>

OK now I'm caffinated...

Butterfly Flarm display product page at http://goo.gl/suuuD

Photos of installed displays at http://goo.gl/yfw9t

German language manuals and installation templates etc. at http://goo.gl/ERwJB

(These manuals etc. are for the current Butterfly Flarm displays,
there will at least need to be firmware and documentation updates to
support PowerFLARM).

There is a nice looking square Butterfly display holders several
suppliers are selling in Europe e.g. http://goo.gl/9jWW1

And yes thanks Peter for the correction, I meant the round display is
for a 57mm hole and wrote 80mm by mistake.

USA Dealers -

Craggy Aero http://www.craggyaero.com/powerflarm.htm
Cumulus Soaring http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/flarm.htm
Knauff and Grove http://www.eglider.org/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=430
Williams Soaring http://www.williamssoaring.com/catalog/powerflarm.html

Hope I did not leave anybody off.

BTW this also answers the original question (a good sign information
is getting easier to find)...

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=PowerFLARM+display

---

BTW there is a list of USA pilots who have ordered PowerFLARM at

http://www.gliderpilot.org/Flarm-PlanToPurchaseList

For pilots who have placed an order I encourage you to add your name
to this list (see instructions on that page), that lets other pilots
considering PowerFLARM see the level of early adoption and make
decisions about their own purchase. There are around one hundred
orders listed at the moment (the running count is out but is being
fixed) and I know of some pilots who are not listed.


Darryl

[JS]

Found the mount on the Butterfly website last night, and threw
together a new panel layout using a Schleicher Word file. Their newer
files include LX8000, 9000 and FLARM displays. The 9000 display can be
shrunk to impersonate LX Mini Map, which is easier to fit (both panel
and budget).
Might as well put the Trig in now, too. The interconnection for
these things is going to be "interesting". 302, Mini Map, FLARM,
Butterfly, Trig... Expecting to get the message:
"PLEASE CONTACT YOUR NETWORK ADMINISTRATOR" (but this is a glider,
isn't it?)
My old OzFLARM was small enough to sit on the top of the panel, but
not the standard PowerFLARM! Thanks again to Darryl for the cardboard
cutout model on his website.
Allegedly the display orientation can be rotated, although on the
Display Einbaubilder page the LS8 panel would have you believe
otherwise.
Jim

[Darryl Ramm]

On Nov 10, 12:05*pm, JS > wrote:
> * Found the mount on the Butterfly website last night, and threw
> together a new panel layout using a Schleicher Word file. Their newer
> files include LX8000, 9000 and FLARM displays. The 9000 display can be
> shrunk to impersonate LX Mini Map, which is easier to fit (both panel
> and budget).
> * Might as well put the Trig in now, too. The interconnection for
> these things is going to be "interesting". 302, Mini Map, FLARM,
> Butterfly, Trig... Expecting to get the message:
> "PLEASE CONTACT YOUR NETWORK ADMINISTRATOR" (but this is a glider,
> isn't it?)
> * My old OzFLARM was small enough to sit on the top of the panel, but
> not the standard PowerFLARM! Thanks again to Darryl for the cardboard
> cutout model on his website.
> Allegedly the display orientation can be rotated, although on the
> Display Einbaubilder page the LS8 panel would have you believe
> otherwise.
> Jim

Jim

The German language manual says the rectangular display can be rotated
in 90 degree steps and the earlier start-up screen shown in the Cirrus
photo shows it powering up properly in the vertical mode.

Not sure wht is going on in the LS6.

I agree on the LX Mini Map being interesting - I played with one
recently that Richard from Craggy Aero had at a seminar.

Darryl

[Whiskey Delta]

On Nov 10, 1:02*pm, "Paul Remde" > wrote:
> Hi Andy,
>
> You can see details and dimensions of the available options here:http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/flarm.htm
>
> The 57 mm display is shown at the very bottom of the page. *It is currently
> not available "bundled" with the PowerFLARM Brick. *It is an extra cost
> option.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Paul Remde
> Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

Too bad they didn't include a SD card slot in the 57mm round display.
How easy would that have been! Would have saved the trouble of having
to put another hole in the panel for the USB port. I'm torn between
the two options at the moment. Does anyone use a chronometer
anymore? I inherited that in my panel and could free up a 57mm round
slot if I remove it.

WD

[Andy[_1_]]

On Nov 10, 2:02*pm, Whiskey Delta > wrote:
>*I'm torn between the two options at the moment. *

Me too. I wonder when the user manuals, installation manuals, and
data port specifications will be available. Probably not until
deliveries start and that would be long after the preferential pricing
ends.

My next questions relate to the functionality and user interfaces of
bundled display and portable options:

Is the on-screen data presentation identical? If not, how is it
different?

Is the user interface identical? If not, how is it different? It
appears that the user controls are not the same on the portable unit
as on the rectangular Butterfly display.

I also wonder if the bundled Butterfly display has embedded firmware
and, if so, how is that firmware updated if needed for future
functionality.

Andy

[Darryl Ramm]

On Nov 10, 2:04*pm, Andy > wrote:
> On Nov 10, 2:02*pm, Whiskey Delta > wrote:
>
> >*I'm torn between *the two options at the moment. *
>
> Me too. * I wonder when the user manuals, installation manuals, and
> data port specifications will be available. Probably not until
> deliveries start and that would be long after the preferential pricing
> ends.
>
> My next questions relate to the functionality and user interfaces of
> bundled display and portable options:
>
> Is the on-screen data presentation identical? If not, how is it
> different?
>
> Is the user interface identical? If not, how is it different? *It
> appears that the user controls are not the same on the portable unit
> as on the rectangular Butterfly display.
>
> I also wonder if the bundled Butterfly display has embedded firmware
> and, if so, how is that firmware updated if needed for future
> functionality.
>
> Andy

The (German) Butterfly Display manual on the support page I gave the
link to mentions updating the display firmware. And the same support
page I gave a link to contains existing Butterfly Flarm display update
software that users install themselves.

At some point you have to stop worrying about every little possible
problem and trust that two companies (Flarm and Butterfly) that have
been doing this stuff for years are going to get us a usable product.

Darryl

[Andy[_1_]]

On Nov 10, 3:35*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Nov 10, 2:04*pm, Andy > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 10, 2:02*pm, Whiskey Delta > wrote:
>
> > >*I'm torn between *the two options at the moment. *
>
> > Me too. * I wonder when the user manuals, installation manuals, and
> > data port specifications will be available. Probably not until
> > deliveries start and that would be long after the preferential pricing
> > ends.
>
> > My next questions relate to the functionality and user interfaces of
> > bundled display and portable options:
>
> > Is the on-screen data presentation identical? If not, how is it
> > different?
>
> > Is the user interface identical? If not, how is it different? *It
> > appears that the user controls are not the same on the portable unit
> > as on the rectangular Butterfly display.
>
> > I also wonder if the bundled Butterfly display has embedded firmware
> > and, if so, how is that firmware updated if needed for future
> > functionality.
>
> > Andy
>
> The (German) Butterfly Display manual on the support page I gave the
> link to mentions updating the display firmware. And the same support
> page I gave a link to contains existing Butterfly Flarm display update
> software that users install themselves.
>
> At some point you have to stop worrying about every little possible
> problem and trust that two companies (Flarm and Butterfly) that have
> been doing this stuff for years are going to get us a usable product.
>
> Darryl- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Sorry I don't read German. If you do perhaps you can provide a
translation on the display firmware update sections. I don't plan to
wade through a crude on-line translation of the whole website in the
hope it may include the information I seek. I am familiar with how to
update the existing FLARM as the manuals are available in English. I
would hope any firmware update to the display is handled by the FLARM
host in much the same way as the Garmin 396/496 updates the attached
XM antenna receiver/processor.

That there will be a usable product at some time was not the subject
of my questions. I was asking about details that would perhaps allow
a more educated choice between two offered and presumably both usable
options. You didn't offer an answer to those questions.

Which PowerFLARM configuration did you choose and what were the
factors you considered? For me the portable seems too big for the
glider and the blind unit appears be too awkward to swap between the
glider and the power plane.

Maybe I need option three which is a smaller portable unit that does
not include batteries and charger. Perhaps that would be a blind unit
that is designed to match the outline of the remote display and hard
mates with it to form an integrated unit when needed to be portable.

Andy

[Darryl Ramm]

On Nov 10, 3:38 pm, Andy > wrote:
> On Nov 10, 3:35 pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 10, 2:04 pm, Andy > wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 10, 2:02 pm, Whiskey Delta > wrote:
>
> > > > I'm torn between the two options at the moment.
>
> > > Me too. I wonder when the user manuals, installation manuals, and
> > > data port specifications will be available. Probably not until
> > > deliveries start and that would be long after the preferential pricing
> > > ends.
>
> > > My next questions relate to the functionality and user interfaces of
> > > bundled display and portable options:
>
> > > Is the on-screen data presentation identical? If not, how is it
> > > different?
>
> > > Is the user interface identical? If not, how is it different? It
> > > appears that the user controls are not the same on the portable unit
> > > as on the rectangular Butterfly display.
>
> > > I also wonder if the bundled Butterfly display has embedded firmware
> > > and, if so, how is that firmware updated if needed for future
> > > functionality.
>
> > > Andy
>
> > The (German) Butterfly Display manual on the support page I gave the
> > link to mentions updating the display firmware. And the same support
> > page I gave a link to contains existing Butterfly Flarm display update
> > software that users install themselves.
>
> > At some point you have to stop worrying about every little possible
> > problem and trust that two companies (Flarm and Butterfly) that have
> > been doing this stuff for years are going to get us a usable product.
>
> > Darryl- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Sorry I don't read German. If you do perhaps you can provide a
> translation on the display firmware update sections. I don't plan to
> wade through a crude on-line translation of the whole website in the
> hope it may include the information I seek. I am familiar with how to
> update the existing FLARM as the manuals are available in English. I
> would hope any firmware update to the display is handled by the FLARM
> host in much the same way as the Garmin 396/496 updates the attached
> XM antenna receiver/processor.
>
> That there will be a usable product at some time was not the subject
> of my questions. I was asking about details that would perhaps allow
> a more educated choice between two offered and presumably both usable
> options. You didn't offer an answer to those questions.
>
> Which PowerFLARM configuration did you choose and what were the
> factors you considered? For me the portable seems too big for the
> glider and the blind unit appears be too awkward to swap between the
> glider and the power plane.
>
> Maybe I need option three which is a smaller portable unit that does
> not include batteries and charger. Perhaps that would be a blind unit
> that is designed to match the outline of the remote display and hard
> mates with it to form an integrated unit when needed to be portable.
>
> Andy

I was answering what I knew about. But my comments on needing to trust
these folks a bit likely applies to your other question. Butterfly
does Flarm displays, that's their bread and butter. AFAIK they've done
the display work in the portable unit, and the Flarm guys focus more
on the back-end. I would not lose sleep on whether they are going to
ship a brick unit that was missing anything important that you could
do/configure on the PowerFLARM portable.

The manual just says you update it with a cable and software. I though
your main concern might have been of its upgradeable by users at all,
and I was just pointing out Butterfly already do this. You can try
launching the update software on their support site if you want a feel
for what that looks like today.

I chose the brick. The portable is a bit too big to fit on the sloped
side of the glareshield on my ASH-26E. And yes I used my "build your
own paper PowerFLARM" (http://www.darryl-ramm.com/2010/08/build-your-
own-powerflarm-paper-model/) to decide this. Unfortunately the large
ILEC engine controller takes a lot of space on Schleicher motorglider
panels, otherwise it would have been a no-brainer for me to just go
with the nice finished install look of the round 57mm display. I had
initially wanted a portable unit to use in my own glider and then also
use that when flying other gliders, but it looks like all the other
gliders I would usually rent (Williams' ASK-21s, Duo Discus, and
hopefully the ASH-25) are already getting PowerFLARM installed in
them.

So I'm still undecided on round or rectangular display, maybe the
rectangular one using that mount I gave the link to and use it for a
while and then install the round one after I do some other panel
changes. Not sure. I have a while to decide. Part of that is also
related to whether I want to swap my C302 for a LX USB-D/1606, try out
some new other toys etc. And I hope there might be enough "slop" in
the market with people changing their minds with Flarm Butterfly
displays that some swapping/trade-ins through my dealer will be
possible if I change my mind on this even after it is delivered. I'll
be asking my dealer this questions at the time I need to decide.

Some feedback from a USA pilot who flew the Butterfly Flarm displays
in Europe recently was they were somewhat sensitive to polarized
sunglasses (I fly with those) but worked in their normal horizontal
orientations - which may mean if you also wear polarized sunglasses to
do this the vertical orientations of the rectangular displays won't
work for you. The displays were daylight viewable but (naturally) did
better under a glareshield).

What is impressive is that Flarm and Butterfly listened to feedback
largely from the USA glider pilot community the need for the "brick"
unit and responded quickly, changing plans to do a simultaneous
release of both products - as I understand it that is a large part of
the reason for the slippage from December to April. But by doing
things like FCC approval for both models together helped make this
more practical and affordable for them (and therefore us).

I agree with WD that a SD card slot on the round display would have
been nice, but the current display packaging was designed before this
and the brick packaging is a later response to pilot feedback. You
would also need a USB or similar link from a Flarm unit to do this and
no Flarm units had that. The current headless Flarm boxes either have
no SD card slot at all of like LX's Red Box provide their had their
own remote SD card slot already.

Given the effort required to change any packaging I'd not wait for
anything beyond the current announced portable or brick packaging.

Darryl

[mattm[_2_]]

On Nov 10, 8:00*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Nov 10, 3:38 pm, Andy > wrote:
> ...
>
> I agree with WD that a SD card slot on the round display would have
> been nice, but the current display packaging was designed before this
> and the brick packaging is a later response to pilot feedback. You
> would also need a USB or similar link from a Flarm unit to do this and
> no Flarm units had that. The current headless Flarm boxes either have
> no SD card slot at all *of like LX's Red Box provide their had their
> own remote SD card slot already.
> ...
>
> Darryl

I agree, too, but many (all?) PDAs are capable of downloading flights
from and declaring tasks to the FLARM unit if they are connected.

-- Matt

[Darryl Ramm]

On Nov 11, 7:17*am, mattm > wrote:
> On Nov 10, 8:00*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
>
> > On Nov 10, 3:38 pm, Andy > wrote:
> > ...
>
> > I agree with WD that a SD card slot on the round display would have
> > been nice, but the current display packaging was designed before this
> > and the brick packaging is a later response to pilot feedback. You
> > would also need a USB or similar link from a Flarm unit to do this and
> > no Flarm units had that. The current headless Flarm boxes either have
> > no SD card slot at all *of like LX's Red Box provide their had their
> > own remote SD card slot already.
> > ...
>
> > Darryl
>
> I agree, too, but many (all?) PDAs are capable of downloading flights
> from and declaring tasks to the FLARM unit if they are connected.
>
> -- Matt

The SD card in a Flarm has had more use than that and I expect
PowerFLARM to be the same, including managing the device config data.
Otherwise you need to use a PC tool to config these systems. And PDA
software can also support displaying Flarm traffic but none of it
really lets you manage the Flarm unit like you do with the Flarm PC
tool and/or SD card.

With the PowerFLARM brick I expect many pilots will want to find space
on your panel to mount the USB port even if they also download IGC
files with a PDA.

Darryl

[Andy[_1_]]

On Nov 10, 6:00*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> Given the effort required to change any packaging I'd not wait for
> anything beyond the current announced portable or brick packaging.

Given the new information that the external display/controller is just
the same as the front of the protable unit it would not be much of a
stretch to have the undefined brick mate with it to form an integrated
unit when needed.

I'd even suggest a battery module could optionally be part of the
stack.

Andy

[Darryl Ramm]

On Nov 11, 10:43*am, Andy > wrote:
> On Nov 10, 6:00*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
>
> > Given the effort required to change any packaging I'd not wait for
> > anything beyond the current announced portable or brick packaging.
>
> Given the new information that the external display/controller is just
> the same as the front of the protable unit it would not be much of a
> stretch to have the undefined brick mate with it to form an integrated
> unit when needed.
>
> I'd even suggest a battery module could optionally be part of the
> stack.
>
> Andy

My understanding (from Urs @ Flarm) is the brick will use a generic
looking metal package. The reason for that is undoubtedly production
costs and the ability to use relatively low cost off the shelf
housing. There are significant design and tooling costs in injection
moulding and significant effort needed to develop and debug this to
get good production grade plastics (something I've unfortunately had
to deal with for computer products). So again I would not hold my
breath for lots of packaging variants or changes. And personally for a
headless unit I would much prefer a metal case.

Of course it may be possible to duck taping together the external
rectangular display, metal brick and a home made battery pack and
putting it on their glareshield :-)


Darryl

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 11/11/2010 7:32 AM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> With the PowerFLARM brick I expect many pilots will want to find space
> on your panel to mount the USB port even if they also download IGC
> files with a PDA.
>
Since you would use the USB port only on the ground, it doesn't have to
take up precious panel space: it can be mounted on the underside of the
instrument pod that goes up with canopy on many gliders, and even on
those gliders it doesn't. DG pilots could mount it on the side or back
of their fixed pods.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz