PowerFlarm antenna install

[Sam Zimmerman]

Can someone describe the antenna installation issues with the PowerFlarm
brick? Does the brick contain the transponder and ADS-b antennas or are they
separate? If they are in the brick, does this dictate a need for a special
location for mounting the black box? If they are separate, do they need to
go outside the glider? SZ

[Wayne Paul]

"Sam Zimmerman" > wrote in message ...
> Can someone describe the antenna installation issues with the PowerFlarm
> brick? Does the brick contain the transponder and ADS-b antennas or are they
> separate? If they are in the brick, does this dictate a need for a special
> location for mounting the black box? If they are separate, do they need to
> go outside the glider? SZ
>

Also, how far does the GPS antenna have to be seperated from other GPS antennas, such as a 302 antenna?

Wayne

[mattm[_2_]]

On Nov 11, 10:00*am, "Wayne Paul" > wrote:
> "Sam Zimmerman" > wrote in ...
> > Can someone describe the antenna installation issues with the PowerFlarm
> > brick? Does the brick contain the transponder and ADS-b antennas or are they
> > separate? If they are in the brick, does this dictate a need for a special
> > location for mounting the black box? If they are separate, do they need to
> > go outside the glider? SZ
>
> Also, how far does the GPS antenna have to be seperated from other GPS antennas, such as a 302 antenna?
>
> Wayne

What I've heard so far is that there are 3 antennas: GPS, FLARM,
and transponder/ADS-B (those are on the same frequency anyway).
I'm interested in the issues as well. My plane is all fiberglass
(ASW-19)
so it's just the metal parts that will affect the signals. Distance
from the
antennas to the unit is also an issue.

Somewhere there's a discussion of a program that analyzes FLARM
traces to determine how good your antenna placement is. They give
an example of a unit placed behind the spar that had difficulty seeing
traffic ahead. However, I don't have a whole lot of room ahead of the
panel for antennas, and I'm concerned about effects on my compass.

-- Matt

[Darryl Ramm]

On Nov 11, 6:56*am, "Sam Zimmerman" > wrote:
> Can someone describe the antenna installation issues with the PowerFlarm
> brick? Does the brick contain the transponder and ADS-b antennas or are they
> separate? If they are in the brick, does this dictate a need for a special
> location for mounting the black box? If they are separate, do they need to
> go outside the glider? SZ

Flarm antenna and 1090 MHZ (ADS-B and PCAS) antenna would normally be
mounted up above your glareshield inside the cockpit. You do not want
to mount them hidden behind the panel. I expect the brick to come with
antennas with short coaxial leads designed to allow this - similar to
those used on current headless Flarm units like the LX Red Box and
Swift made units. There are instructions available now for those units
that might give you some planing guidance.

There is a port for optional second Flarm antenna (not included in the
package) on the PowerFLARM designed to help increase the range and
that is intended for mounting externally (esp. if carbon) usually
underneath the glider. If there is a transponder antenna in that area
there will need to be some thougth given to mounting that antennas
away from each other, and cable run lengths etc.

I expect most people will install the brick and standard two antennas
in a temporary setup and see how this goes and eventually add the
external antenna if they want to. That's what I'm planning on doing
and am in no rush to drill holes in the outside of my baby. I do
expect to drill two hole in the glareshield on my ASH-26E for those
two antennas to poke through. Not sure how they will fix/locate
underneath yet, and the issue will be making it easy to remove and
resinstall the canopy.

We asked Urs from Flarm about some of this this at the PASCO safety
seminar where he spoke and I think the final exact details on antennas
with the brick is still being worked out.

Darryl

[John Cochrane[_2_]]

On Nov 11, 9:49*am, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Nov 11, 6:56*am, "Sam Zimmerman" > wrote:
>
> > Can someone describe the antenna installation issues with the PowerFlarm
> > brick? Does the brick contain the transponder and ADS-b antennas or are they
> > separate? If they are in the brick, does this dictate a need for a special
> > location for mounting the black box? If they are separate, do they need to
> > go outside the glider? SZ
>
> Flarm antenna and 1090 MHZ (ADS-B and PCAS) antenna would normally be
> mounted up above your glareshield inside the cockpit. You do not want
> to mount them hidden behind the panel. I expect the brick to come with
> antennas with short coaxial leads designed to allow this - similar to
> those used on current headless Flarm units like the LX Red Box and
> Swift made units. There are instructions available now for those units
> that might give you some planing guidance.
>
> There is a port for optional second Flarm antenna (not included in the
> package) on the PowerFLARM designed to help increase the range and
> that is intended for mounting externally (esp. if carbon) usually
> underneath the glider. If there is a transponder antenna in that area
> there will need to be some thougth given to mounting that antennas
> away from each other, and cable run lengths etc.
>
> I expect most people will install the brick and standard two antennas
> in a temporary setup and see how this goes and eventually add the
> external antenna if they want to. That's what I'm planning on doing
> and am in no rush to drill holes in the outside of my baby. I do
> expect to drill two hole in the glareshield on my ASH-26E for those
> two antennas to poke through. Not sure how they will fix/locate
> underneath yet, and the issue will be making it easy to remove and
> resinstall the canopy.
>
> We asked Urs from Flarm about some of this this at the PASCO safety
> seminar where he spoke and I think the final exact details on antennas
> with the brick is still being worked out.
>
> Darryl

I gather new gliders now have transponder antennas in the fiberglass
tail, rather than ugly sticking out the bottom, along with radio. Is
it impossible to fish coax back to the tail and put some of these
antennas back there without cutting holes?

John Cochrane

[Brad[_2_]]

On Nov 11, 7:55*am, John Cochrane >
wrote:
> On Nov 11, 9:49*am, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 11, 6:56*am, "Sam Zimmerman" > wrote:
>
> > > Can someone describe the antenna installation issues with the PowerFlarm
> > > brick? Does the brick contain the transponder and ADS-b antennas or are they
> > > separate? If they are in the brick, does this dictate a need for a special
> > > location for mounting the black box? If they are separate, do they need to
> > > go outside the glider? SZ
>
> > Flarm antenna and 1090 MHZ (ADS-B and PCAS) antenna would normally be
> > mounted up above your glareshield inside the cockpit. You do not want
> > to mount them hidden behind the panel. I expect the brick to come with
> > antennas with short coaxial leads designed to allow this - similar to
> > those used on current headless Flarm units like the LX Red Box and
> > Swift made units. There are instructions available now for those units
> > that might give you some planing guidance.
>
> > There is a port for optional second Flarm antenna (not included in the
> > package) on the PowerFLARM designed to help increase the range and
> > that is intended for mounting externally (esp. if carbon) usually
> > underneath the glider. If there is a transponder antenna in that area
> > there will need to be some thougth given to mounting that antennas
> > away from each other, and cable run lengths etc.
>
> > I expect most people will install the brick and standard two antennas
> > in a temporary setup and see how this goes and eventually add the
> > external antenna if they want to. That's what I'm planning on doing
> > and am in no rush to drill holes in the outside of my baby. I do
> > expect to drill two hole in the glareshield on my ASH-26E for those
> > two antennas to poke through. Not sure how they will fix/locate
> > underneath yet, and the issue will be making it easy to remove and
> > resinstall the canopy.
>
> > We asked Urs from Flarm about some of this this at the PASCO safety
> > seminar where he spoke and I think the final exact details on antennas
> > with the brick is still being worked out.
>
> > Darryl
>
> I gather new gliders now have transponder antennas in the fiberglass
> tail, rather than ugly sticking out the bottom, along with radio. Is
> it impossible to fish coax back to the tail and put some of these
> antennas back there without cutting holes?
>
> John Cochrane

If by tail you mean the vertical fin? My HP-24 and the Apis are all
carbon except for the rudder, I don't think splitting the rudder apart
to install an antenna has much appeal.

Brad

[Darryl Ramm]

On Nov 11, 7:55*am, John Cochrane >
wrote:
> On Nov 11, 9:49*am, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 11, 6:56*am, "Sam Zimmerman" > wrote:
>
> > > Can someone describe the antenna installation issues with the PowerFlarm
> > > brick? Does the brick contain the transponder and ADS-b antennas or are they
> > > separate? If they are in the brick, does this dictate a need for a special
> > > location for mounting the black box? If they are separate, do they need to
> > > go outside the glider? SZ
>
> > Flarm antenna and 1090 MHZ (ADS-B and PCAS) antenna would normally be
> > mounted up above your glareshield inside the cockpit. You do not want
> > to mount them hidden behind the panel. I expect the brick to come with
> > antennas with short coaxial leads designed to allow this - similar to
> > those used on current headless Flarm units like the LX Red Box and
> > Swift made units. There are instructions available now for those units
> > that might give you some planing guidance.
>
> > There is a port for optional second Flarm antenna (not included in the
> > package) on the PowerFLARM designed to help increase the range and
> > that is intended for mounting externally (esp. if carbon) usually
> > underneath the glider. If there is a transponder antenna in that area
> > there will need to be some thougth given to mounting that antennas
> > away from each other, and cable run lengths etc.
>
> > I expect most people will install the brick and standard two antennas
> > in a temporary setup and see how this goes and eventually add the
> > external antenna if they want to. That's what I'm planning on doing
> > and am in no rush to drill holes in the outside of my baby. I do
> > expect to drill two hole in the glareshield on my ASH-26E for those
> > two antennas to poke through. Not sure how they will fix/locate
> > underneath yet, and the issue will be making it easy to remove and
> > resinstall the canopy.
>
> > We asked Urs from Flarm about some of this this at the PASCO safety
> > seminar where he spoke and I think the final exact details on antennas
> > with the brick is still being worked out.
>
> > Darryl
>
> I gather new gliders now have transponder antennas in the fiberglass
> tail, rather than ugly sticking out the bottom, along with radio. Is
> it impossible to fish coax back to the tail and put some of these
> antennas back there without cutting holes?
>
> John Cochrane

John

Looking at that is a good idea, but beyond the capability of most
owners or repair shops. This is something the glider manufacturers
really should be working with Flarm to design in this capability. That
will make for three antennas back there. The VHF comm antenna in the
tail is unlikely to be a significant problem but the Transponder and
Flarm will a need some thought/work on how they are installed near
each other to avoid problems.

Flarm operates at relatively low power and the coax run back to the
tail may be an issue. Even with transponders I expect the tail mounted
antennas to have issues with mimimum coaxial loss requiremnts. e.g. If
I was ordering a new glider with the tail mounted transponder antenna
I'd talk to the glider manufactures about the output power from
tranponders they have actually seen when they do the transponder
calibrations tests (not just the theoretical cable losses). And I'd
not be surprised if I needed to order a higher-power transponder to
know that it would reach the minimum power output requirements (e.g.
order a Trig TT-22 instead of a Trig TT-21 transponder - and/or work
on getting that Trig transponder box back as far as it can be mounted
(and reached for service) in the glider fuselage).

Because the vertical fins of modern gliders are carbon the antennas
usually mount outside the fin box in the rudder hinge gap area. This
may actually be a worse location than mounted under the glider,
especially since the antenna is parallel to large conducting surfaces
of the vertical fin, but it sure looks cleaner. I'd love to see any
test results manufacturers have for these transponder antenna
installs. And at least for Flarm if the antenna in that location is
slightly blocked looking forward that is not an issue since the Flarm
antenna in the cockpit should provide good forward coverage. In an
ideal world the glider manufactures would have a RF consultant model
the antenna performance in these installs. I'm not sure how much
design work actually goes into these installs.

In my ASH-26E my transponder antenna is is underneath the fueslage
behind the gear. My PowerFLARM optional external Flarm antenna might
end up getting installed on the top of the tail boom behind the engine
bay (where people can walk up and try to wiggle it and ask "what is
this" - before being smacked on the head). I expect we'll see some
guidance from Flarm on this in time.

This also was something that came up at the PASCO saftey seminar in
questions to Urs from Flarm and he seemed quite keen on the idea of
having glider manufactures install the optional external Flarm antenna
in glider vertical fins.

Some comment back to antenna installs. Both the 1090MHz and Flarm
signals are vertically polarized so both antennas need to be as
vertical as possible. The standard antennas Flarm devices use in the
cockpit do not require a ground plane. Different optional external
antennas may or may not depending on the antenna.

Many GPS receivers do not interfere when mounted close to each other.
I'm not even sure what the problem is when they do (local-oscillator
back leakage from the GPS receiver? - but that has to come all the way
from the box as the powered antennas don't have a L.O. in them) but I
know people have experienced this. Most times I've heard of problems
separating the antennas by a few inches seemed to cure it. If there is
a problem I'd also try swapping out the active (patch style that
contain an RF amplifier) antennas with a different brand/model and
seeing if that helps. I've seen people claim problems with GPS antenna
interference when I suspect it was really just a faulty antenna or
coax/cable and where moving things appeared to change things because
of the coax was intermittently bad. So careful testing/swapping out
antennas/cables if you think you see this is a good idea.

Darryl

[JS]

There will be a few options, I'm sure. Those of us with carbon
fuselages will need to experiment.
My OzFLARM Nimbus 3 install (now back in the USA and part of Steve
Leonard's fleet) had a high-gain film antenna stuck to the inside of
the canopy. It looks obvious from the outside but was not visible to
the pilot in flight. These were for sale by the original manufacturer
of the OzFLARM, Nigel Andrews at RF Developments. I have not seen
those antennas on the Swift Avionics (current Australian FLARM
representative) website.
Of course this was a top-of-the-panel mount with an internal GPS
antenna and didn't need a transponder antenna. Before installing the
high-gain antenna, I took the plastic cover off the standard OzFLARM
antenna and replaced it with clear instrument tubing - less obtrusive
than the black stick.
There are a few antenna options for the standard FLARM shown on this
page:
http://www.swiftavionics.com.au/product_category/1/Sailplanes/
The suction cup mount antenna (just above Altair Pro) and similar GPS
antenna mounts may be a good way to experiment with placement.
Whilst you're on the Swift website, look at their FLARMNAV. Makes a
simple package for club gliders.
Jim

[Dave Nadler]

On Nov 11, 2:25*pm, JS > wrote:
> * There will be a few options, I'm sure. Those of us with carbon
> fuselages will need to experiment.
> * My OzFLARM Nimbus 3 install (now back in the USA and part of Steve
> Leonard's fleet) had a high-gain film antenna stuck to the inside of
> the canopy. It looks obvious from the outside but was not visible to
> the pilot in flight. These were for sale by the original manufacturer
> of the OzFLARM, Nigel Andrews at RF Developments. I have not seen
> those antennas on the Swift Avionics (current Australian FLARM
> representative) website.
> * Of course this was a top-of-the-panel mount with an internal GPS
> antenna and didn't need a transponder antenna. Before installing the
> high-gain antenna, I took the plastic cover off the standard OzFLARM
> antenna and replaced it with clear instrument tubing - less obtrusive
> than the black stick.
> * There are a few antenna options for the standard FLARM shown on this
> page:http://www.swiftavionics.com.au/product_category/1/Sailplanes/
> The suction cup mount antenna (just above Altair Pro) and similar GPS
> antenna mounts may be a good way to experiment with placement.
> Whilst you're on the Swift website, look at their FLARMNAV. Makes a
> simple package for club gliders.
> Jim

Hi Jim ! Note that classic flarm is not OK for USA.
FLARM crew is working on better antenna options for the states.
See you in Keepit in a couple weeks ?
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"

[JS]

Hello Dave:
Don't worry... Ye olde OzFLARM is still in New South Wales, gave it
to the club when VJS came home.
You can rent it at Keepit if you don't have one! The contest is FLARM
mandatory.
Jim

On Nov 11, 11:58*am, Dave Nadler > wrote:
> Hi Jim ! *Note that classic flarm is not OK for USA.
> FLARM crew is working on better antenna options for the states.
> See you in Keepit in a couple weeks ?
> Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"

[JJ Sinclair]

On Nov 11, 7:55*am, John Cochrane >
wrote:
> On Nov 11, 9:49*am, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 11, 6:56*am, "Sam Zimmerman" > wrote:
>
> > > Can someone describe the antenna installation issues with the PowerFlarm
> > > brick? Does the brick contain the transponder and ADS-b antennas or are they
> > > separate? If they are in the brick, does this dictate a need for a special
> > > location for mounting the black box? If they are separate, do they need to
> > > go outside the glider? SZ
>
> > Flarm antenna and 1090 MHZ (ADS-B and PCAS) antenna would normally be
> > mounted up above your glareshield inside the cockpit. You do not want
> > to mount them hidden behind the panel. I expect the brick to come with
> > antennas with short coaxial leads designed to allow this - similar to
> > those used on current headless Flarm units like the LX Red Box and
> > Swift made units. There are instructions available now for those units
> > that might give you some planing guidance.
>
> > There is a port for optional second Flarm antenna (not included in the
> > package) on the PowerFLARM designed to help increase the range and
> > that is intended for mounting externally (esp. if carbon) usually
> > underneath the glider. If there is a transponder antenna in that area
> > there will need to be some thougth given to mounting that antennas
> > away from each other, and cable run lengths etc.
>
> > I expect most people will install the brick and standard two antennas
> > in a temporary setup and see how this goes and eventually add the
> > external antenna if they want to. That's what I'm planning on doing
> > and am in no rush to drill holes in the outside of my baby. I do
> > expect to drill two hole in the glareshield on my ASH-26E for those
> > two antennas to poke through. Not sure how they will fix/locate
> > underneath yet, and the issue will be making it easy to remove and
> > resinstall the canopy.
>
> > We asked Urs from Flarm about some of this this at the PASCO safety
> > seminar where he spoke and I think the final exact details on antennas
> > with the brick is still being worked out.
>
> > Darryl
>
> I gather new gliders now have transponder antennas in the fiberglass
> tail, rather than ugly sticking out the bottom, along with radio. Is
> it impossible to fish coax back to the tail and put some of these
> antennas back there without cutting holes?
>
> John Cochrane- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hi John,
I installed a dipole antenna inside the tail of my Genesis and routed
the coax forward to run the transponder. It needs to be kept 6" from
the radio antenna and metal parts like pushrods. You may be able to
mount one behind the rudder in a corner that doesn't interfere with
rudder movement or cut a small hole in the bottom of the fin spar to
get it out of the way of rudder. It measures 1" X 1" X 5" with a BNC
coming out at 90 degrees ( I got one from Aircraft Spruce) The coax
can be secured by sliding gooped-up rings down the coax from the front
then allowing the rings to settle and bond in the desired locations.
JJ
PS..........please no cracks about the Genesis not having a tail.