In Flight computers and software:

[Walt Connelly]

Okay folks, I am a rather new glider pilot, about 120 flights within the last year and maybe close to 100 hours aloft. (I have mastered sink) I am beginning to acquire the gadgets necessary to proceed with this sport and was looking for some input on those little PDA type devices I see people poking with a stylus before take off.

Any recommendations on the best one to have? Software? What can it do? The best device for those of us technically challenged?

Walt

[Darryl Ramm]

On Nov 13, 6:14*am, Walt Connelly <Walt.Connelly.
> wrote:
> Okay folks, I am a rather new glider pilot, about 120 flights within the
> last year and maybe close to 100 hours aloft. *(I have mastered sink) *
> I am beginning to acquire the gadgets necessary to proceed with this
> sport and was looking for some input on those little PDA type devices I
> see people poking with a stylus before take off.
>
> Any recommendations on the best one to have? *Software? *What can it do?
> The best device for those of us technically challenged? *
>
> Walt
>
> --
> Walt Connelly

[And before somebody else bites, a PDA and soaring software is not
_necessary_ to proceed with this sport. But they can be useful.]

Ask your local XC pilots what they use and starting there is likely a
very good place. You'll be able to get help on how to use this stuff.
Most software can do way more than what a new pilot needs and knowing
how to turn off much of the junk is a good start.

Leading software packages include

SeeYou Mobile
XC Soar
LK 8000
Winpilot

The PDA market is kind of dead so choices of what PDA or PNA devices
(Portable Navigation Assistant) devices you run this stuff on is a bit
more complex. And choices of hardware may depend on if you want to
plug into a flight computer (like a Cambridge 302) to get better wind
data etc. or whether you just want to use a stand-alone GPS in the PNA/
PDA. Naviter did the Oudie which is a bundled PNA and SeeYou Mobile to
address some of the hassles with current PNA/PDA devices. The Oudie is
good for people who do not want to monkey around with technology.

You should ask local pilots if you can look at their PDAs in sunlight
(including wearing the sunglasses you fly with). You may be very
dissapointed in the daylight visibility of PDA/PNA devices. There are
more expensive solutions to that (e.g. the LX Mini Map).

You need t think about how to mount this stuff so its easy to se and
safe and powered properly. If you are flying club or rental gliders
the mounts available there may dictate what hardware to purchase.

---

Most of these programs have a simulator mode and some have simulator
software you can run on a PC. Using those features to learn the
software is really invaluable. The more technically savvy folks can
also drive any of these products with the NMEA data-out from soaring
simulators like Condor or Silent Wings and that's an even richer
environment to learn the products and play with advanced features
(like the current changes to contest Start features in SeeYou
Mobile...).

You did not talk about your goals etc, but if you are serious about
starting XC flying one of the best technology purchases you can make
is SeeYou (the desktop PC program not SeeYou Mobile). That lets you
analyze your own and other flights etc. What you use on the PDA.
Whatever of these soaring software you purchase you should purchase
SeeYou (for your PC) as well.

Darryl

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 11/13/2010 7:14 AM, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Okay folks, I am a rather new glider pilot, about 120 flights within the
> last year and maybe close to 100 hours aloft. (I have mastered sink)
> I am beginning to acquire the gadgets necessary to proceed with this
> sport and was looking for some input on those little PDA type devices I
> see people poking with a stylus before take off.
>
> Any recommendations on the best one to have? Software? What can it do?
> The best device for those of us technically challenged?
>
> Walt

Welcome to a life-changingly wonderful activity, Walt...and to RAS too! :-)

Have fun, too, researching your above-posed question(s); such self-education
truly is yet another fun part of immersion in soaring.

That said, do be aware your 'necessary' (above) may be a tad strong. My ship's
'electrical system' consists anymore of a handheld radio and a
hat-brim-mounted Malletec audio-only, uncompensated vario. At its finest, the
ship's electrical system substituted a panel-mounted Ball electric
analog/audio/uncompensated vario for the Malletec (an inherited panel mounted
radio never worked). Once, I considered flying with a loaned flight logger,
but personal laziness won over messing with an 'installation.' Yet, somehow,
(after mastering sink) sufficient mastery of sink's 'light-side' brother and
off-field landing basics led to an adult lifetime of crewless (in the
pre-arranged sense) XC, almost exclusively of the O&R sort. Landed out a few
times, had/made some really fun retrieves, never been lost, never even
experienced an overnighter. I've no doubt many of my contemporaries'
experiences would be similar.

Point being, do keep in mind during your research that simplification has its
own virtues!

May your soaring experiences be long and wondrous...

Dinosaurically,
Bob W.

[brianDG303[_2_]]

On Nov 13, 12:08*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Nov 13, 6:14*am, Walt Connelly <Walt.Connelly.
>
> > wrote:
> > Okay folks, I am a rather new glider pilot, about 120 flights within the
> > last year and maybe close to 100 hours aloft. *(I have mastered sink) *
> > I am beginning to acquire the gadgets necessary to proceed with this
> > sport and was looking for some input on those little PDA type devices I
> > see people poking with a stylus before take off.
>
> > Any recommendations on the best one to have? *Software? *What can it do?
> > The best device for those of us technically challenged? *
>
> > Walt
>
> > --
> > Walt Connelly
>
> [And before somebody else bites, a PDA and soaring software is not
> _necessary_ to proceed with this sport. But they can be useful.]
>
> Ask your local XC pilots what they use and starting there is likely a
> very good place. You'll be able to get help on how to use this stuff.
> Most software can do way more than what a new pilot needs and knowing
> how to turn off much of the junk is a good start.
>
> Leading software packages include
>
> SeeYou Mobile
> XC Soar
> LK 8000
> Winpilot
>
> The PDA market is kind of dead so choices of what PDA or PNA devices
> (Portable Navigation Assistant) devices you run this stuff on is a bit
> more complex. And choices of hardware may depend on if you want to
> plug into a flight computer (like a Cambridge 302) to get better wind
> data etc. or whether you just want to use a stand-alone GPS in the PNA/
> PDA. Naviter did the Oudie which is a bundled PNA and SeeYou Mobile to
> address some of the hassles with current PNA/PDA devices. The Oudie is
> good for people who do not want to monkey around with technology.
>
> You should ask local pilots if you can look at their PDAs in sunlight
> (including wearing the sunglasses you fly with). You may be very
> dissapointed in the daylight visibility of PDA/PNA devices. There are
> more expensive solutions to that (e.g. the LX Mini Map).
>
> You need t think about how to mount this stuff so its easy to se and
> safe and powered properly. If you are flying club or rental gliders
> the mounts available there may dictate what hardware to purchase.
>
> ---
>
> Most of these programs have a simulator mode and some have simulator
> software you can run on a PC. Using those features to learn the
> software is really invaluable. The more technically savvy folks can
> also drive any of these products with the NMEA data-out from soaring
> simulators like Condor or Silent Wings and that's an even richer
> environment to learn the products and play with advanced features
> (like the current changes to contest Start features in SeeYou
> Mobile...).
>
> You did not talk about your goals etc, but if you are serious about
> starting XC flying one of the best technology purchases you can make
> is SeeYou (the desktop PC program not SeeYou Mobile). That lets you
> analyze your own and other flights etc. What you use on the PDA.
> Whatever of these soaring software you purchase you should purchase
> SeeYou (for your PC) as well.
>
> Darryl

Even though I am a big SeeYouMobile fan I think I can give objective
advice. Look to your local pilots and what they use. If they are happy
to help you and they all use XC Soar I would use that. If you don't
like to screw around with software and don't mind paying some bucks go
with SYM, it is just so painless.

As to devices, probably the HP310 solution could be picked up cheap
somewhere and then you could trade up later and keep the HP310 for a
spare, or you could Oudie. Again your local pilots would be a great
help, but right now it is tricky as new options are coming on line.

I like to fly with very large text, no terrain, and very little
information; mostly what landing place I can make and by how much,
plus bearing to get there. That would be a good start and increase the
safety of your flights as opposed to making them more dangerous.

Brian

[Frank[_12_]]

On Nov 13, 9:14*am, Walt Connelly <Walt.Connelly.
> wrote:
> Okay folks, I am a rather new glider pilot, about 120 flights within the
> last year and maybe close to 100 hours aloft. *(I have mastered sink) *
> I am beginning to acquire the gadgets necessary to proceed with this
> sport and was looking for some input on those little PDA type devices I
> see people poking with a stylus before take off.
>
> Any recommendations on the best one to have? *Software? *What can it do?
> The best device for those of us technically challenged? *
>
> Walt
>
> --
> Walt Connelly

Try a combination of SoarPilot (http://www.soaringpilot.org/), a Palm
Tungsten T, and a Magellan GPS Companion for the M500. SoarPilot is a
very capable and well-supported cross-country soaring program, and the
Palm Tungsten T with its transreflective screen is one of the most
sunlight-readable displays available. The Magellan GPS Companion is a
'sled' that fits onto the back of a Tungsten T and not only provides
GPS input, but also allows the combination to be powered from the
ship's 12V battery (or a small 12v auxiliary battery if you don't have
ship power). I have used one of these setups for years from
beginning X-C to full-out racing contests, and it hasn't run out of
steam yet. The SoarPilot program is free from the above site, and the
Tungsten T and Magellan GPS units can be found on eBay for a pittance
(a friend recently purchased a T, a GPS Companion, and the nice auto
suction mount for $40 US total).

Frank (TA)

[bildan]

On Nov 13, 7:14*am, Walt Connelly <Walt.Connelly.
> wrote:
> Okay folks, I am a rather new glider pilot, about 120 flights within the
> last year and maybe close to 100 hours aloft. *(I have mastered sink) *
> I am beginning to acquire the gadgets necessary to proceed with this
> sport and was looking for some input on those little PDA type devices I
> see people poking with a stylus before take off.
>
> Any recommendations on the best one to have? *Software? *What can it do?
> The best device for those of us technically challenged? *
>
> Walt
>
> --
> Walt Connelly

You'll get good advice from many sources. However, one which might
not be mentioned is this technology is undergoing rapid change. Any
'best' system will be state-of-the-art for no more than one season.
With this in mind, one could argue not 'painting yourself into a
corner' with expensive 'permanent' installations would be a good
strategy.

I would venture a guess the pending release of a vast number of
"tablet" computers of various sized and capabilities will have an
impact. Their greater screen "real estate" will allow software
programmers more freedom to offer advanced features. Internet
connectivity and sheer computing power will offer yet more.

[hoss]

On Nov 13, 4:26*pm, bildan > wrote:
> On Nov 13, 7:14*am, Walt Connelly <Walt.Connelly.
>
> > wrote:
> > Okay folks, I am a rather new glider pilot, about 120 flights within the
> > last year and maybe close to 100 hours aloft. *(I have mastered sink) *
> > I am beginning to acquire the gadgets necessary to proceed with this
> > sport and was looking for some input on those little PDA type devices I
> > see people poking with a stylus before take off.
>
> > Any recommendations on the best one to have? *Software? *What can it do?
> > The best device for those of us technically challenged? *
>
> > Walt
>
> > --
> > Walt Connelly
>
> You'll get good advice from many sources. *However, one which might
> not be mentioned is this technology is undergoing rapid change. *Any
> 'best' system will be state-of-the-art for no more than one season.
> With this in mind, one could argue not 'painting yourself into a
> corner' with expensive 'permanent' installations would be a good
> strategy.
>
> I would venture a guess the pending release of a vast number of
> "tablet" computers of various sized and capabilities will have an
> impact. * Their greater screen "real estate" will allow software
> programmers more freedom to offer advanced features. *Internet
> connectivity and sheer computing power will offer yet more.

Walt, I can show you see you/ Ipaq 3900 pda and the Oudie. Just stop
by my house at the North end of SLGP.
KG

[toad]

On Nov 13, 9:14*am, Walt Connelly <Walt.Connelly.
> wrote:
> Okay folks, I am a rather new glider pilot, about 120 flights within the
> last year and maybe close to 100 hours aloft. *(I have mastered sink) *
> ...
>
> Walt

Walt,

Until you have mastered LIFT, there is no need for those gadgets. So
concentrate on a good audio vario and practice climbing.

When your thermalling is good enough for XC flight. I recommend Seeyou
mobile with some sort of hand held device that can be removed from the
cockpit.

Todd Smith
3S

[Westbender]

On Nov 13, 8:14*am, Walt Connelly <Walt.Connelly.
> wrote:
> Okay folks, I am a rather new glider pilot, about 120 flights within the
> last year and maybe close to 100 hours aloft. *(I have mastered sink) *
> I am beginning to acquire the gadgets necessary to proceed with this
> sport and was looking for some input on those little PDA type devices I
> see people poking with a stylus before take off.
>
> Any recommendations on the best one to have? *Software? *What can it do?
> The best device for those of us technically challenged? *
>
> Walt
>
> --
> Walt Connelly

What are you flying? Do you own or rent? What equipment/instruments
are installed in the ships you fly?

[Walt Connelly]

[QUOTE=Westbender;754852]On Nov 13, 8:14*am, Walt Connelly Walt.Connelly.
wrote:[color=blue][i]
Okay folks, I am a rather new glider pilot, about 120 flights within the
last year and maybe close to 100 hours aloft. *(I have mastered sink) *
I am beginning to acquire the gadgets necessary to proceed with this
sport and was looking for some input on those little PDA type devices I
see people poking with a stylus before take off.

Any recommendations on the best one to have? *Software? *What can it do?
The best device for those of us technically challenged? *

Walt

Thanks to all of you for your information and input. I will be seeking some guidance from the more experienced pilots at SLGP. Kilo Zulu and Golf and a few others have come thru with some good advice. I have a good wrist mounted audio vario because most rentals don't have audio and I don't like flying with my head inside the cockpit any more than necessary, especially in a thermal. I wouldn't say I have mastered lift as yet but I have managed to stay up 2.5 hours on a couple of occasions, although a full garbage can may well have done the same on those days. What an addiction.

Walt

[[email protected]]

On Nov 13, 9:14*am, Walt Connelly <Walt.Connelly.
> wrote:
> Okay folks, I am a rather new glider pilot, about 120 flights within the
> last year and maybe close to 100 hours aloft. *(I have mastered sink) *
> I am beginning to acquire the gadgets necessary to proceed with this
> sport and was looking for some input on those little PDA type devices I
> see people poking with a stylus before take off.
>
> Any recommendations on the best one to have? *Software? *What can it do?
> The best device for those of us technically challenged? *
>
> Walt
>
> --
> Walt Connelly

You don't need any of that stuff to master most of the important
elements of soaring.
Learn to stay up reliably when weather is "reasonable'. Then start
some short cross countries
that you have laid out with a chart- Yes some people still use them.
If you are not flying with
sufficient margins to not nee glide computer stuff, you are too low.
Then, go do your Silver badge.
After that- think about adding extra stuff.
It is a huge confidence builder to know you can get home when all the
tools die.
FWIW
Good Luck
UH

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 11/19/2010 9:17 AM, wrote:
> On Nov 13, 9:14 am, Walt Connelly<Walt.Connelly.
> > wrote:
>> Okay folks, I am a rather new glider pilot, about 120 flights within the
>> last year and maybe close to 100 hours aloft. (I have mastered sink)
>> I am beginning to acquire the gadgets necessary to proceed with this
>> sport and was looking for some input on those little PDA type devices I
>> see people poking with a stylus before take off.
>>
>> Any recommendations on the best one to have? Software? What can it do?
>> The best device for those of us technically challenged?
>>
>> Walt
>>
>> --
>> Walt Connelly
>
> You don't need any of that stuff to master most of the important
> elements of soaring.
> Learn to stay up reliably when weather is "reasonable'. Then start
> some short cross countries
> that you have laid out with a chart- Yes some people still use them.
> If you are not flying with
> sufficient margins to not nee glide computer stuff, you are too low.
> Then, go do your Silver badge.
> After that- think about adding extra stuff.
> It is a huge confidence builder to know you can get home when all the
> tools die.
> FWIW
> Good Luck
> UH

"What UH said."

FWIW, 'everyone' who sticks with the sport to where you presently are - and
then a little beyond to where you seem to want to be going (great and fun
places, indeed!) - goes through the phase you seem at the moment (to me,
anyway) to be in. It's part of the game.

That (not condescendingly) noted, almost all the truly useful stuff to be
gained from participation in soaring flows from the simple - yeah right! -
ability to remain aloft more or less when you want to on UH's aforementioned
'reasonable days.' No PDA/PNA/GPS/flight-computer/software in the world can
help you in that regard in the absence of 'useful thermalling skills.' Just
like no purchasable L/D in the world will save your bacon in the absence of
basic landout skills and the ability to safely use 'em...

Donning my Great Karnak hat, here's what your future will likely look like if
you actively focus initially on the horse (i.e. thermalling skills) before the
cart (i.e. potentially useful whiz-bang accoutrements [once ensuring you've
the much-more-crucial decent vario/vario-plumbing, of course]):

- you either will or will not eventually decide to go the route of technical
complexity...but this time from a solidly useful personal perspective (as
distinct from [say] the perspective of merely trying to make your cockpit look
like that of those you presently perceive as being ahead of you on the XC
soaring curve).

IOW, one day you'll *know* when you are or aren't ready to go the complexity
route...and the complex route certainly isn't necessary in order to become a
competent, diamond-skill-worthy, XC pilot. You might even decide to save your
'complexity mad-money' for tows, a better sailplane, or ???

Don't fret at this stage about being 'technically challenged,' cuz that
condition won't be what holds you back or slows your ascent of gaining 'useful
XC' soaring skills.

Regards,
Bob W.

[kirk.stant]

On Nov 19, 10:17*am, wrote:
>
> You don't need any of that stuff to master most of the important
> elements of soaring.
> Learn to stay up reliably when weather is "reasonable'. Then start
> some short cross countries
> that you have laid out with a chart- Yes some people still use them.
> If you are not flying with
> sufficient margins to not nee glide computer stuff, you are too low.
> Then, go do your Silver badge.
> After that- think about adding extra stuff.
> It is a huge confidence builder to know you can get home when all the
> tools die.
> FWIW
> Good Luck
> UH

Walt, UH is absolutely correct - focus on the basics (and get some
good books on advanced & XC soaring and study them) then practice
until you are comfortable in both weak and strong conditions.

When you are starting to venture out into unknown areas (or getting
ready for your first contest - kinda the same thing, really) then is a
good time to start looking at glide computers, moving maps, etc.

They (flight computers) are a lot of fun to use, if setup
intelligently, but cannot replace basic skills; to use them
effectively your flying has to have progressed to the point that it is
becoming instinctive.

Good luck!

Kirk
66

[brianDG303[_2_]]

On Nov 19, 11:44*am, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
> On Nov 19, 10:17*am, wrote:
>
>
>
> > You don't need any of that stuff to master most of the important
> > elements of soaring.
> > Learn to stay up reliably when weather is "reasonable'. Then start
> > some short cross countries
> > that you have laid out with a chart- Yes some people still use them.
> > If you are not flying with
> > sufficient margins to not nee glide computer stuff, you are too low.
> > Then, go do your Silver badge.
> > After that- think about adding extra stuff.
> > It is a huge confidence builder to know you can get home when all the
> > tools die.
> > FWIW
> > Good Luck
> > UH
>
> Walt, UH is absolutely correct - focus on the basics (and get some
> good books on advanced & XC soaring and study them) then practice
> until you are comfortable in both weak and strong conditions.
>
> When you are starting to venture out into unknown areas (or getting
> ready for your first contest - kinda the same thing, really) then is a
> good time to start looking at glide computers, moving maps, etc.
>
> They (flight computers) are a lot of fun to use, if setup
> intelligently, but cannot replace basic skills; to use them
> effectively your flying has to have progressed to the point that it is
> becoming instinctive.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Kirk
> 66

I'm a little timid about going against the conventional wisdom, in
part because it sounds so logical, but I just went through this 3 and
4 years ago and right now I am watching newish pilots at this stage,
and I have a different view. Where I fly there is no lift at the
field, so you generally take a 6 to 9 mile tow to a lift generator,
for example Mt. Washington (north of Seattle). When you're learning to
thermal you stay as long as you can and then 'final glide' back to the
field. My advice to new pilots is to repeat that flight over and over,
keeping track of the departure and arrival altitudes; then move to
another thermal generator and repeat. Having SYM on a PDA/PNA with
ONLY the distance,bearing, and arrival altitude (in a large font) and
with map and Terrain turned off, isn't a distraction and won't hurt
you. You will get used to having the information so that one day when
you are coming back low or need to make another field you can just fly
the bearing and get home safe. That sure saved my ass one day when I
unexpectedly needed to know exactly where to go and had zero time to
figure it out. I still fly with very little information on the
screen, I think I added only wind to the mix so far.

Brian

[noel.wade]

Hi Walt -

I see you're getting a lot of responses and more than a few opinions
(always the case here on RAS; and not necessarily a bad thing). I was
where you were at about 2.5 years ago, so (like Brian) let me make a
few suggestions as someone who's "been there" recently:

1) UH's advice is good. Learn to thermal really really well. Even if
it means taking local flights a little more than you want. As long as
there are a few house thermals within 3 - 5 miles of your home
airport, its valuable practice. Don't be afraid to try working weak
lift - especially near the end of your flights (but NOT after you've
decided you need to come in for a landing - always cut off at a
reasonable altitude, and commit to that decision).

2) Read, read, read. Bob Wander (and others) have some really good
books about Thermals and Cross-country soaring. You don't need to
read about competitions or racing yet (although they are cool)... But
find some books that you can read and enjoy, to help you learn how to
prepare for cross-country flights. If you have time, learning more
about weather is good (again, there are some glider-oriented books
about this topic).

3) If you are good with computers, the Condor Soaring simulator is
good for practicing XC flights (and there's a PDA inside your cockpit
in that simulator, too). I recommend buying rudder pedals and a
TrackIR (head tracking so you can "look around" in the game and do a
proper visual scan) - but that requires a couple of hundred $$
investment. I think its a good investment, but I realize that not
everyone can afford it.

4) Once you are ready to fly XC and use a PDA/computer, you will find
that your personal preferences and style matter a LOT. Everyone has
an opinion on hardware or software; but the important thing is to try
a bunch of different things and figure out what works best for you.
For example: Brian likes text and almost no moving map. I like a big
moving map and almost no text. We both make it work - the difference
is style. He finds it easier to "read" numbers, whereas I am able to
interpret colors and symbols quickly.

The bottom line is that setting up a PDA takes work. Not just in
buying the hardware and software, but in figuring out how to configure
the program with the display/setup YOU like. Most of the programs out
there (LK8000, XC Soar, SeeYouMobile, etc) are highly configurable and
can be set to display information in a variety of ways. It needs to
work for YOU (and no one else). It needs to let you show the
information you want in a way that you can quickly and easily
understand, so you can get your eyes back outside the cockpit where
they belong! In normal flight, the PDA should be a "sanity check" or
a backup to your gut/intuition.

The best way to get experience is to see if your fellow pilots can let
you fiddle with their PDA on the ground sometime. Spend time with
each one and try to experiment with as many different PDAs and
programs as you can - and see which works for you. Some of them (like
my favorite, LK8000) have a built-in "simulator" mode (or a "replay"
mode) that lets you take a pretend flight and see how the software
reacts in-flight.

Good luck, stay active, and feel free to post again if you have more
questions!

Take care,

--Noel
P.S. In case you're curious: SeeYouMobile is pricey, but has a ton
of features, is pretty easy to use, and comes with a lot of the "setup
work" done for you. Free software like LK8000 and XCSoar have pretty
much all of the same features as SeeYouMobile, but they require you to
do a little bit more of the setup work. Its not hard work, but its
the difference between clicking an "Install" button versus downloading
several individual files and copying them to the right directory on
your PC or PDA, and then selecting the proper items from configuration
menus inside the program.

[John Scott[_3_]]

One consideration is that some flight computer software will get "blue" OLC
validation from the built in logger using only the PDA and a GPS (like a CF
card GPS). SeeYouMobile for example. There are others. This can save the
cost of an IGC logger in some cases.

John