Any known problems with early ASW27?

[Gabriel Duford]

Hi,
With some glider models, there are known issues with the early models
(the first 10 or 20 built). Is there any such known issues with the
early ASW27, and if so, up to what serial number?
Thanks,

gabriel

[[email protected]]

On Nov 30, 6:17*pm, Gabriel Duford > wrote:
> Hi,
> With some glider models, there are known issues with the early models
> (the first 10 or 20 built). Is there any such known issues with the
> early ASW27, and if so, up to what serial number?
> Thanks,
>
> gabriel

Slow water dump was a problem for many folks. Many ships have this
improved by now.
Other than that, it's mostly how well kept.
Still a great glider.
UH

[Andy[_1_]]

On Dec 1, 6:24*am, wrote:

> Slow water dump was a problem for many folks. Many ships have this
> improved by now.


Did the factory ever do anything to improve the dump speed on the 27
or was that improvement a result of owner modification to venting and
fitting (your) larger dump valves?

I know the 28 was modified sometime before serial 48 by adding an
additional vent line to the wing tips but the dump is still stupid
slow.

Andy

[hretting]

Better hurry, u snooze u lose.

[JS]

Most problems with early AS-W27, as far as my experience with 27035
and 27058 have been:
It's generally the idiot behind the stick fouling things up.
Jim

[[email protected]]

On Dec 1, 9:20*am, Andy > wrote:
> On Dec 1, 6:24*am, wrote:
>
> > Slow water dump was a problem for many folks. Many ships have this
> > improved by now.
>
> Did the factory ever do anything to improve the dump speed on the 27
> or was that improvement a result of owner modification to venting and
> fitting (your) larger dump valves?
>
> I know the 28 was modified sometime before serial 48 by adding an
> additional vent line to the wing tips but the dump is still stupid
> slow.
>
> Andy

28's configured from factory to accept big valves without modification
shortly after mine(done as special to work out change) was built SN
28015.
Ships with factory water system got original small valves. US ships
ordered without valves could be set up with big valves as plug in
upgrade available from Eastern Sailplane. There is also a conversion
for the few that originally had samll valves. Same applies to 27B's.
During this time Gerhard and I exchanged numerous messages resulting
in 2 vents(I wanted 1 vent with tubing 1 size larger). Airflow in this
long vent is choked at flow rates required to replace water with air.
Next improvement is venting fill cap and adding smal check valve to
get air in better.
Last mod is to add a vent on the bottom of the wing at the outboard
end of the inner tank. This has a ball check valve. Not popular
because people got all itchy about cutting holes in theri shiney
gliders.
With all mods, I test dumped 50 gal in under 3 minutes with most out
in about 2 min. Stock valves and std vents on another ship dumped 50
gal in about 5 1/2 or 6 minutes as I recall.
FWIW
UH

[Andy[_1_]]

On Dec 1, 1:56*pm, wrote:
> On Dec 1, 9:20*am, Andy > wrote:
>
> > On Dec 1, 6:24*am, wrote:
>
> > > Slow water dump was a problem for many folks. Many ships have this
> > > improved by now.
>
> > Did the factory ever do anything to improve the dump speed on the 27
> > or was that improvement a result of owner modification to venting and
> > fitting (your) larger dump valves?
>
> > I know the 28 was modified sometime before serial 48 by adding an
> > additional vent line to the wing tips but the dump is still stupid
> > slow.
>
> > Andy
>
> 28's configured from factory to accept big valves without modification
> shortly after mine(done as special to work out change) was built SN
> 28015.
> Ships with factory water system got original small valves. US ships
> ordered without valves could be set up with big valves as plug in
> upgrade available from Eastern Sailplane. There is also a conversion
> for the few that originally had samll valves. Same applies to 27B's.
> During this time Gerhard and I exchanged numerous messages resulting
> in 2 vents(I wanted 1 vent with tubing 1 size larger). Airflow in this
> long vent is choked at flow rates required to replace water with air.
> Next improvement is venting fill cap and adding smal check valve to
> get air in better.
> Last mod is to add a vent on the bottom of the wing at the outboard
> end of the inner tank. This has a ball check valve. Not popular
> because people got all itchy about cutting holes in theri shiney
> gliders.
> With all mods, I test dumped 50 gal in under 3 minutes with most out
> in about 2 min. Stock valves and std vents on another ship dumped 50
> gal in about 5 1/2 or 6 minutes as I recall.
> FWIW
> UH

Thanks for the info. For clarification though are you saying that
28048 (mine) will accept the larger valves with no modification.
After talking with Murray I thought the lower wing surface had to be
milled back to accept the larger valve retaining ring. However that
conversation was when only his prototype was in US and that would
predate 28015.


Andy

[[email protected]]

On Dec 1, 4:28*pm, Andy > wrote:
> On Dec 1, 1:56*pm, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 1, 9:20*am, Andy > wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 1, 6:24*am, wrote:
>
> > > > Slow water dump was a problem for many folks. Many ships have this
> > > > improved by now.
>
> > > Did the factory ever do anything to improve the dump speed on the 27
> > > or was that improvement a result of owner modification to venting and
> > > fitting (your) larger dump valves?
>
> > > I know the 28 was modified sometime before serial 48 by adding an
> > > additional vent line to the wing tips but the dump is still stupid
> > > slow.
>
> > > Andy
>
> > 28's configured from factory to accept big valves without modification
> > shortly after mine(done as special to work out change) was built SN
> > 28015.
> > Ships with factory water system got original small valves. US ships
> > ordered without valves could be set up with big valves as plug in
> > upgrade available from Eastern Sailplane. There is also a conversion
> > for the few that originally had samll valves. Same applies to 27B's.
> > During this time Gerhard and I exchanged numerous messages resulting
> > in 2 vents(I wanted 1 vent with tubing 1 size larger). Airflow in this
> > long vent is choked at flow rates required to replace water with air.
> > Next improvement is venting fill cap and adding smal check valve to
> > get air in better.
> > Last mod is to add a vent on the bottom of the wing at the outboard
> > end of the inner tank. This has a ball check valve. Not popular
> > because people got all itchy about cutting holes in theri shiney
> > gliders.
> > With all mods, I test dumped 50 gal in under 3 minutes with most out
> > in about 2 min. Stock valves and std vents on another ship dumped 50
> > gal in about 5 1/2 or 6 minutes as I recall.
> > FWIW
> > UH
>
> Thanks for the info. *For clarification though are you saying that
> 28048 (mine) will accept the larger valves with no modification.
> After talking with Murray I thought the lower wing surface had to be
> milled back to accept the larger valve retaining ring. *However that
> conversation was when only his prototype was in US and that would
> predate 28015.
>
> Andy- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm sure yours will take bigger valves. I can tell you how to confirm.
Contact me off line for that info.
No retaining ring on new valves. Requires opening the bottom hole to 1
3/8 diameter (removes the chamfered seat). Valve seats on inner face
of wing skin with foam seal and is retained by a single screw from the
bottom. Pushrods shorten 1 inch.
Install takes a couple hours if you haven't done before.
John stocks conversion kits with instructions.
He should have vent valve kits also. If not contact me.
UH

[Andy[_10_]]

On Dec 1, 12:56*pm, wrote:
> On Dec 1, 9:20*am, Andy > wrote:
>
> > On Dec 1, 6:24*am, wrote:
>
> > > Slow water dump was a problem for many folks. Many ships have this
> > > improved by now.
>
> > Did the factory ever do anything to improve the dump speed on the 27
> > or was that improvement a result of owner modification to venting and
> > fitting (your) larger dump valves?
>
> > I know the 28 was modified sometime before serial 48 by adding an
> > additional vent line to the wing tips but the dump is still stupid
> > slow.
>
> > Andy
>
> 28's configured from factory to accept big valves without modification
> shortly after mine(done as special to work out change) was built SN
> 28015.
> Ships with factory water system got original small valves. US ships
> ordered without valves could be set up with big valves as plug in
> upgrade available from Eastern Sailplane. There is also a conversion
> for the few that originally had samll valves. Same applies to 27B's.
> During this time Gerhard and I exchanged numerous messages resulting
> in 2 vents(I wanted 1 vent with tubing 1 size larger). Airflow in this
> long vent is choked at flow rates required to replace water with air.
> Next improvement is venting fill cap and adding smal check valve to
> get air in better.
> Last mod is to add a vent on the bottom of the wing at the outboard
> end of the inner tank. This has a ball check valve. Not popular
> because people got all itchy about cutting holes in theri shiney
> gliders.
> With all mods, I test dumped 50 gal in under 3 minutes with most out
> in about 2 min. Stock valves and std vents on another ship dumped 50
> gal in about 5 1/2 or 6 minutes as I recall.
> FWIW
> UH

Last time I measured water capacity on my -27B it came in at a tad
under 40 gallons. Does the 50 gallons mentioned include a fuselage
tank, enlarged bags on an -A model or some other consideration? I
didn't measure capacity super precisely, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't
even close to 50 gallons.

Also, my original factory dump valve arrangement takes closer to 9
minutes to dump the bulk of the tqnk's contents, but after looking at
a couple of modified valve installations I just haven't had the nerve
to start grinding away on the valve opening. It means I have to be
more careful about dumping water early if I get low.

$60,000 is an exceptionally good price. $85,000-$100,000 asking seems
more typical, depending on condition and instrumentation, so I expect
there is a very happy new -27 owner out
there.

9B

[[email protected]]

On Dec 2, 2:46*am, Andy > wrote:
> On Dec 1, 12:56*pm, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 1, 9:20*am, Andy > wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 1, 6:24*am, wrote:
>
> > > > Slow water dump was a problem for many folks. Many ships have this
> > > > improved by now.
>
> > > Did the factory ever do anything to improve the dump speed on the 27
> > > or was that improvement a result of owner modification to venting and
> > > fitting (your) larger dump valves?
>
> > > I know the 28 was modified sometime before serial 48 by adding an
> > > additional vent line to the wing tips but the dump is still stupid
> > > slow.
>
> > > Andy
>
> > 28's configured from factory to accept big valves without modification
> > shortly after mine(done as special to work out change) was built SN
> > 28015.
> > Ships with factory water system got original small valves. US ships
> > ordered without valves could be set up with big valves as plug in
> > upgrade available from Eastern Sailplane. There is also a conversion
> > for the few that originally had samll valves. Same applies to 27B's.
> > During this time Gerhard and I exchanged numerous messages resulting
> > in 2 vents(I wanted 1 vent with tubing 1 size larger). Airflow in this
> > long vent is choked at flow rates required to replace water with air.
> > Next improvement is venting fill cap and adding smal check valve to
> > get air in better.
> > Last mod is to add a vent on the bottom of the wing at the outboard
> > end of the inner tank. This has a ball check valve. Not popular
> > because people got all itchy about cutting holes in theri shiney
> > gliders.
> > With all mods, I test dumped 50 gal in under 3 minutes with most out
> > in about 2 min. Stock valves and std vents on another ship dumped 50
> > gal in about 5 1/2 or 6 minutes as I recall.
> > FWIW
> > UH
>
> Last time I measured water capacity on my -27B it came in at a tad
> under 40 gallons. *Does the 50 gallons mentioned include a fuselage
> tank, enlarged bags on an -A model or some other consideration? *I
> didn't measure capacity super precisely, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't
> even close to 50 gallons.
>
> Also, my original factory dump valve arrangement takes closer to 9
> minutes to dump the bulk of the tqnk's contents, but after looking at
> a couple of modified valve installations I just haven't had the nerve
> to start grinding away on the valve opening. *It means I have to be
> more careful about dumping water early if I get low.
>
> $60,000 is an exceptionally good price. $85,000-$100,000 asking seems
> more typical, depending on condition and instrumentation, so I expect
> there is a very happy new -27 owner out
> there.
>
> 9B- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Data was for '28 which has more capacity answering "the other Andy".
'27B/'28 big valve mod has been done about 40 times based on how many
systems have been produced so it is pretty
well proven. The amount removed in enlarging the hole is about 5/32
all around and does not begin to come close to edges
of structure in that area.
UH

[Andy[_1_]]

On Dec 2, 12:46*am, Andy > wrote:


> Last time I measured water capacity on my -27B it came in at a tad
> under 40 gallons. *Does the 50 gallons mentioned include a fuselage
> tank, enlarged bags on an -A model or some other consideration? *I
> didn't measure capacity super precisely, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't
> even close to 50 gallons.


As Hank has indicated that was for a 28. My dump time (28048
unmodified) on fast final glide is close to 8 minutes, that's with
about 40gals on board. I usually start the dump about 4 minutes out
and land with quite a bit still left as that seems better than getting
beat up on the glide.

If I was in ridge country I'd probably have done the big valve mod by
now but it doesn't seem to be a big problem flying in SW USA.

Andy (GY)