FCC License?

[ContestID67[_2_]]

Maybe this has come up before, if so I appologize. I know that we
have had a thread on the need for an airport to have an FCC license.
This came up when one of the gliderports was fined for having an
expired license. This was useful, and timely, information for other
glider ports.

So there are now two followup questions;

- Does an FCC license for your airport cover the use of handhelds for
ground operations such as talking to the winch operator, the wing
runner to the guy logging flights on the "board", telling the guy on
the mower that someone is landing, etc? I would think that if the
communications are operationally necessary, the answer is no a license
is not required.

- Is an FCC license needed by myself when I am flying my glider? I
have been told no, but heard some conflicting information which was
more related to corporate pilots.

Can someone quote chapter and verse?

Thanks, John

[Tony V]

> - Does an FCC license for your airport cover the use of handhelds for
> ground operations such as talking to the winch operator, the wing
> runner to the guy logging flights on the "board", telling the guy on
> the mower that someone is landing, etc? I would think that if the
> communications are operationally necessary, the answer is no a license
> is not required.

I agree that they are operationally useful/necessary. Assuming that the
airport has a valid unicom/multicom license, you can legally uses a
handheld radio as follows:

47 CFR 87.345(c) states
"Aeronautical utility mobile stations
which operate on the airport’s
unicom frequency or the frequency
122.900 MHz are authorized only to
transmit information relating to safety,
such as runway conditions and hazards
on the airport. These stations are
authorized primarily for monitoring
communications from and to aircraft
approaching or departing the airport."

If you want use a hand held on the ground to tell the tow pilot to take
out the slack or ask where the lift is, you will need a license.


> - Is an FCC license needed by myself when I am flying my glider? I
> have been told no, but heard some conflicting information which was
> more related to corporate pilots.

No license is required unless you are operating outside of the US.


> Can someone quote chapter and verse?


87.18 - Station license required.

(b) An aircraft station is licensed by rule and does not need an
individual license issued by the FCC if the aircraft station is not
required by statute, treaty, or agreement to which the United States is
signatory to carry a radio, and the aircraft station does not make
international flights or communications. Even though an individual
license is not required, an aircraft station licensed by rule must be
operated in accordance with all applicable operating requirements,
procedures, and technical specifications found in this part.

[ContestID67[_2_]]

Tony - Thanks for the update and "chapter and verse" from the FAA FAR/
AIM. You've got to wonder if the FCC has ever read the FAA
documents. Good to hear that I don't need a license unless I travel
internationally. I wonder what our US team does when then go to the
worlds? I will bet they don't apply for a individual user license.

As to the below - It states "...Airport's unicom frequency...". Can I
assume that this is any (unicom) frequency that my gliderport is
licensed for beyond the 122.9 that is mentioned? In our case we are
licensed for 123.3 mhz.

> 47 CFR 87.345(c) states
> "Aeronautical utility mobile stations
> which operate on the airport s
> unicom frequency or the frequency
> 122.900 MHz are authorized only to
> transmit information relating to safety,
> such as runway conditions and hazards
> on the airport. These stations are
> authorized primarily for monitoring
> communications from and to aircraft
> approaching or departing the airport."
>

[John Cochrane[_2_]]

> internationally. *I wonder what our US team does when then go to the
> worlds? *I will bet they don't apply for a individual user license.

Yes we do. And the rest of the mountain of paperwork that worlds
requires and threatens to check.

John Cochrane.

[ContestID67[_2_]]

On Dec 30, 2:56*pm, John Cochrane >
wrote:
> > internationally. *I wonder what our US team does when then go to the
> > worlds? *I will bet they don't apply for a individual user license.
>
> Yes we do. And the rest of the mountain of paperwork that worlds
> requires and threatens to check.
>
> John Cochrane.

John - I stand corrected! - John

[Mike Schumann]

On 12/29/2010 6:20 PM, ContestID67 wrote:
> Maybe this has come up before, if so I appologize. I know that we
> have had a thread on the need for an airport to have an FCC license.
> This came up when one of the gliderports was fined for having an
> expired license. This was useful, and timely, information for other
> glider ports.
>
> So there are now two followup questions;
>
> - Does an FCC license for your airport cover the use of handhelds for
> ground operations such as talking to the winch operator, the wing
> runner to the guy logging flights on the "board", telling the guy on
> the mower that someone is landing, etc? I would think that if the
> communications are operationally necessary, the answer is no a license
> is not required.
>
> - Is an FCC license needed by myself when I am flying my glider? I
> have been told no, but heard some conflicting information which was
> more related to corporate pilots.
>
> Can someone quote chapter and verse?
>
> Thanks, John

This is an area where the SSA could be very helpful. The current FCC
rules, the way I understand them, exempts radios that are used in
aircraft (permanently installed and portables) from requiring a license.
All other radios need to be licensed.

One problem is that the license system for ground based aeronautical
radios assumes that the radio is going to be used at a single location,
so that the license specifies a particular frequency to be used (usually
the CATF frequency).

There doesn't seem to be any provision for licensing a portable radio
for use by a retrieve crew, where the crew would alternately use 123.3
or whatever local CATF frequency is appropriate for a remote airport
that the glider may be landing at.

There seems to be a mechanism in the FCC rules to get radios licensed
that don't fit into the standard FCC regulatory framework. The SSA
should take advantage of this to get a blanket license for all SSA
members using ground based radios.

Not only would that solve a legal black hole that probably affects the
majority of glider pilots at some point or other, but it would also
provide a powerful incentive for people to become SSA members, so they
can be covered by the blanket license.

--
Mike Schumann

[[email protected]]

On Dec 30, 6:38*pm, Mike Schumann >
wrote:
> On 12/29/2010 6:20 PM, ContestID67 wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Maybe this has come up before, if so I appologize. *I know that we
> > have had a thread on the need for an airport to have an FCC license.
> > This came up when one of the gliderports was fined for having an
> > expired license. *This was useful, and timely, information for other
> > glider ports.
>
> > So there are now two followup questions;
>
> > - Does an FCC license for your airport cover the use of handhelds for
> > ground operations such as talking to the winch operator, the wing
> > runner to the guy logging flights on the "board", telling the guy on
> > the mower that someone is landing, etc? *I would think that if the
> > communications are operationally necessary, the answer is no a license
> > is not required.
>
> > - Is an FCC license needed by myself when I am flying my glider? *I
> > have been told no, but heard some conflicting information which was
> > more related to corporate pilots.
>
> > Can someone quote chapter and verse?
>
> > Thanks, John
>
> This is an area where the SSA could be very helpful. *The current FCC
> rules, the way I understand them, exempts radios that are used in
> aircraft (permanently installed and portables) from requiring a license.
> * All other radios need to be licensed.
>
> One problem is that the license system for ground based aeronautical
> radios assumes that the radio is going to be used at a single location,
> so that the license specifies a particular frequency to be used (usually
> the CATF frequency).
>
> There doesn't seem to be any provision for licensing a portable radio
> for use by a retrieve crew, where the crew would alternately use 123.3
> or whatever local CATF frequency is appropriate for a remote airport
> that the glider may be landing at.
>
> There seems to be a mechanism in the FCC rules to get radios licensed
> that don't fit into the standard FCC regulatory framework. *The SSA
> should take advantage of this to get a blanket license for all SSA
> members using ground based radios.
>
> Not only would that solve a legal black hole that probably affects the
> majority of glider pilots at some point or other, but it would also
> provide a powerful incentive for people to become SSA members, so they
> can be covered by the blanket license.
>
> --
> Mike Schumann- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm not aware of someone in the SSA structure that is well versed in
this. Perhaps you could volunteer your
expertise. Steve Northcraft and Cindy Brickner do a lot on the FAA
side and no doubt would be happy for help
on something like this.
Happy New Year
UH

[2KA]

You can get a license for a mobile ground station (in support of
glider operations) to transmit on a single frequency, i.e. 123.3. I
have one. You need a second license if you want to transmit on
123.5. Such mobile ground stations are not allowed, however, to
transmit on the CTAF.

Lynn Alley
"2KA"

[Tony V]

2KA wrote:
> You can get a license for a mobile ground station (in support of
> glider operations) to transmit on a single frequency, i.e. 123.3. I
> have one. You need a second license if you want to transmit on
> 123.5. Such mobile ground stations are not allowed, however, to
> transmit on the CTAF.

Crazy, isn't it? Hand held air band transceivers have been around for a
long time but it is only recently that they've become "dirt cheap" and
everybody and his brother has one. Case in point - in 1985 I paid almost
US$500 for an Icom A20. Today, I earn 3 times as much as I did in '85
and I got an A6 for well under US$300.

I suspect that the current communications regs are simply a reflection
of the earlier era - at least, I hope so.The reality is that if you
briefly and occasionally use a hand held outside of an aircraft, the
feds will not come after you - not that I recommend illegal use, mind
you. If you repeatedly mis-use a base station, chances are that they
will - http://www.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2004/DA-04-3498A1.html ,
http://www.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2009/DA-09-1258A1.html.

Tony, LS6-b "6N", W1DYS

[John Gilbert[_2_]]

Aeronautical utility mobile stations refer pretty specifically to
operation at an airport. Perhaps as important is the section on
Aviation Support Stations, because they specifically mention gliders,
they allow land and mobile use, including away from the airport, and
"Aviation support mobile stations will be assigned 123.300 and 123.500
MHz." This takes into account usage by a crew following or recovering
a glider/pilot. My (non-lawyer, prejudiced) reading would say that
taking out slack and finding lift would be acceptable under 87.319(b):

Title 47: Telecommunication
PART 87—AVIATION SERVICES
Subpart K—Aviation Support Stations
§ 87.319 Scope of service.
Aviation support stations are used for the following types of
operations:
(a) Pilot training;
(b) Coordination of soaring activities between gliders, tow aircraft
and land stations;
(c) Coordination of activities between free balloons or lighter-than-
air aircraft and ground stations;
(d) Coordination between aircraft and aviation service organizations
located on an airport concerning the safe and efficient portal-to-
portal transit of the aircraft, such as the types of fuel and ground
services available; and
(e) Promotion of safety of life and property.

Subpart K—Aviation Support Stations
§ 87.323 Frequencies.
.....
(b) The frequencies 121.950, 123.300 and 123.500 MHz are available for
assignment to aviation support stations used for pilot training,
coordination of lighter-than-air aircraft operations, or coordination
of soaring or free ballooning activities. Applicants for 121.950 MHz
must coordinate their proposal with the appropriate FAA Regional
Spectrum Management Office. The application must specify the FAA
Region notified and the date notified. Applicants for aviation support
land stations may request frequency(ies) based upon their eligibility
although the Commission reserves the right to specify the frequency of
assignment. Aviation support mobile stations will be assigned 123.300
and 123.500 MHz. However, aviation support mobile stations must
operate only on a noninterference basis to communications between
aircraft and aviation support land stations.
.....

BUT, agreed, a license seems to be required for Aviation Support
Stations as well.

John



On Dec 29, 5:41*pm, Tony V > wrote:
> > - Does an FCC license for your airport cover the use of handhelds for
> > ground operations such as talking to the winch operator, the wing
> > runner to the guy logging flights on the "board", telling the guy on
> > the mower that someone is landing, etc? *I would think that if the
> > communications are operationally necessary, the answer is no a license
> > is not required.
>
> I agree that they are operationally useful/necessary. Assuming that the
> airport has a valid unicom/multicom license, you can legally uses a
> handheld radio as follows:
>
> 47 CFR 87.345(c) states
> "Aeronautical utility mobile stations
> which operate on the airport s
> unicom frequency or the frequency
> 122.900 MHz are authorized only to
> transmit information relating to safety,
> such as runway conditions and hazards
> on the airport. These stations are
> authorized primarily for monitoring
> communications from and to aircraft
> approaching or departing the airport."
>
> If you want use a hand held on the ground to tell the tow pilot to take
> out the slack or ask where the lift is, you will need a license.
>
> > - Is an FCC license needed by myself when I am flying my glider? *I
> > have been told no, but heard some conflicting information which was
> > more related to corporate pilots.
>
> No license is required unless you are operating outside of the US.
>
> > Can someone quote chapter and verse?
>
> 87.18 - Station license required.
>
> * *(b) An aircraft station is licensed by rule and does not need an
> individual license issued by the FCC if the aircraft station is not
> required by statute, treaty, or agreement to which the United States is
> signatory to carry a radio, and the aircraft station does not make
> international flights or communications. Even though an individual
> license is not required, an aircraft station licensed by rule must be
> operated in accordance with all applicable operating requirements,
> procedures, and technical specifications found in this part.

[John Gilbert[_2_]]

I can show an example that makes this incorrect. Our club had a
license that allowed ground support stations to use either 123.3 or
123.5. Also, 87.323 says explicitly "Aviation support mobile stations
will be assigned 123.300 and 123.500 MHz". "And", not "or". Perhaps
you can pay a fee to get them to correct your license?? That's
crazy...


On Dec 31, 6:04*am, Tony V > wrote:
> 2KA wrote:
> > You can get a license for a mobile ground station (in support of
> > glider operations) to transmit on a single frequency, i.e. 123.3. *I
> > have one. *You need a second license if you want to transmit on
> > 123.5. *Such mobile ground stations are not allowed, however, to
> > transmit on the CTAF.
>
> Crazy, isn't it? Hand held air band transceivers have been around for a
> long time but it is only recently that they've become "dirt cheap" and
> everybody and his brother has one. Case in point - in 1985 I paid almost
> US$500 for an Icom A20. Today, I earn 3 times as much as I did in '85
> and I got an A6 for well under US$300.
>
> I suspect that the current communications regs are simply a reflection
> of the earlier era - at least, I hope so.The reality is that if you
> briefly and occasionally use a hand held outside of an aircraft, the
> feds will not come after you - not that I recommend illegal use, mind
> you. If you repeatedly mis-use a base station, chances are that they
> will -http://www.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2004/DA-04-3498A1.html,http://www.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2009/DA-09-1258A1.html.
>
> Tony, LS6-b "6N", W1DYS

[2KA]

When I got my support license, I called to ask specifically about
using 123.5 as well. You are correct that such an option is
available, but it costs twice as much. You have to fill out two
license applications. But at the end you're right -- they give you a
single ground station ID and allow you to transmit on either.

Lynn
"2KA"

[JFP]

On Dec 30 2010, 5:48*pm, wrote:
> On Dec 30, 6:38*pm, Mike Schumann >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 12/29/2010 6:20 PM, ContestID67 wrote:
>
> > > Maybe this has come up before, if so I appologize. *I know that we
> > > have had a thread on the need for an airport to have an FCC license.
> > > This came up when one of the gliderports was fined for having an
> > > expired license. *This was useful, and timely, information for other
> > > glider ports.
>
> > > So there are now two followup questions;
>
> > > - Does an FCC license for your airport cover the use of handhelds for
> > > ground operations such as talking to the winch operator, the wing
> > > runner to the guy logging flights on the "board", telling the guy on
> > > the mower that someone is landing, etc? *I would think that if the
> > > communications are operationally necessary, the answer is no a license
> > > is not required.
>
> > > - Is an FCC license needed by myself when I am flying my glider? *I
> > > have been told no, but heard some conflicting information which was
> > > more related to corporate pilots.
>
> > > Can someone quote chapter and verse?
>
> > > Thanks, John
>
> > This is an area where the SSA could be very helpful. *The current FCC
> > rules, the way I understand them, exempts radios that are used in
> > aircraft (permanently installed and portables) from requiring a license..
> > * All other radios need to be licensed.
>
> > One problem is that the license system for ground based aeronautical
> > radios assumes that the radio is going to be used at a single location,
> > so that the license specifies a particular frequency to be used (usually
> > the CATF frequency).
>
> > There doesn't seem to be any provision for licensing a portable radio
> > for use by a retrieve crew, where the crew would alternately use 123.3
> > or whatever local CATF frequency is appropriate for a remote airport
> > that the glider may be landing at.
>
> > There seems to be a mechanism in the FCC rules to get radios licensed
> > that don't fit into the standard FCC regulatory framework. *The SSA
> > should take advantage of this to get a blanket license for all SSA
> > members using ground based radios.
>
> > Not only would that solve a legal black hole that probably affects the
> > majority of glider pilots at some point or other, but it would also
> > provide a powerful incentive for people to become SSA members, so they
> > can be covered by the blanket license.
>
> > --
> > Mike Schumann- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I'm not aware of someone in the SSA structure that is well versed in
> this. Perhaps you could volunteer your
> expertise. Steve Northcraft and Cindy Brickner do a lot on the FAA
> side and no doubt would be happy for help
> on something like this.
> Happy New Year
> UH- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Perhaps the SSA could invite the FCC to the Philly meeting to present
on this subject. Probably pack the room, judging from the thread
here.

JFP

[John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

I'm circling back on this old 2010 thread as I received a letter from the FCC asking me to renew the radio license specific specific to my N number (aka "Call Sign").

So here is a question that really needs a simple yes/no answer*.

"Do I need an FCC license for my glider (or for that matter for the myriad of GA power pilots flying their airplanes owned or rented) while flying WITHIN THE US so I can transmit across the entire aviation frequency range (118-137 MHz) and I can communicate with other pilots, small/large airports, ATC, etc, etc?"

I believe that the answer is "No". See the reference links below.

https://www.fcc.gov/commercial-radio-operator-license-program
https://www.aopa.org/travel/international-travel/aircraft-radio-station-licenses-and-pilot-radio-operator-certificates
https://sportysacademy.com/fcc/
https://cfiacademy.com/how-to-get-fcc-radio-operator-permit-for-faa-commercial-and-private-pilots/

Let the conversation begin.

Thanks, John (OHM)

*PS - I'm *NOT* talking about a license for my gliderport, international flying, drug running, insurrection, or (for Bruno's benefit) flying in an air show.

[Dan Marotta]

No. Used to, not any more unless you cross a border. If you plan any
international flights, check first.

Dan
5J

On 3/7/21 12:09 PM, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> I'm circling back on this old 2010 thread as I received a letter from the FCC asking me to renew the radio license specific specific to my N number (aka "Call Sign").
>
> So here is a question that really needs a simple yes/no answer*.
>
> "Do I need an FCC license for my glider (or for that matter for the myriad of GA power pilots flying their airplanes owned or rented) while flying WITHIN THE US so I can transmit across the entire aviation frequency range (118-137 MHz) and I can communicate with other pilots, small/large airports, ATC, etc, etc?"
>
> I believe that the answer is "No". See the reference links below.
>
> https://www.fcc.gov/commercial-radio-operator-license-program
> https://www.aopa.org/travel/international-travel/aircraft-radio-station-licenses-and-pilot-radio-operator-certificates
> https://sportysacademy.com/fcc/
> https://cfiacademy.com/how-to-get-fcc-radio-operator-permit-for-faa-commercial-and-private-pilots/
>
> Let the conversation begin.
>
> Thanks, John (OHM)
>
> *PS - I'm *NOT* talking about a license for my gliderport, international flying, drug running, insurrection, or (for Bruno's benefit) flying in an air show.
>

[Peter Hudson]

On Sunday, March 7, 2021 at 4:41:35 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> No. Used to, not any more unless you cross a border. If you plan any
> international flights, check first.
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 3/7/21 12:09 PM, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> > I'm circling back on this old 2010 thread as I received a letter from the FCC asking me to renew the radio license specific specific to my N number (aka "Call Sign").
> >
> > So here is a question that really needs a simple yes/no answer*.
> >
> > "Do I need an FCC license for my glider (or for that matter for the myriad of GA power pilots flying their airplanes owned or rented) while flying WITHIN THE US so I can transmit across the entire aviation frequency range (118-137 MHz) and I can communicate with other pilots, small/large airports, ATC, etc, etc?"
> >
> > I believe that the answer is "No". See the reference links below.
> >
> > https://www.fcc.gov/commercial-radio-operator-license-program
> > https://www.aopa.org/travel/international-travel/aircraft-radio-station-licenses-and-pilot-radio-operator-certificates
> > https://sportysacademy.com/fcc/
> > https://cfiacademy.com/how-to-get-fcc-radio-operator-permit-for-faa-commercial-and-private-pilots/
> >
> > Let the conversation begin.
> >
> > Thanks, John (OHM)
> >
> > *PS - I'm *NOT* talking about a license for my gliderport, international flying, drug running, insurrection, or (for Bruno's benefit) flying in an air show.
> >
On a related note: I did a lot of emailing with the FCC a few years back about using aviation radios from aircraft without N numbers (ultralights, paramotors, paragliders etc.) And the end result was that to be legal I needed a restricted radio telephone operators permit. the same as if flying a registered plane out of country. The popular answer is "no one checks, so I do it for safety" but I figured for $60 and no training requirements for a lifetime permit I would just do sign up for it.

[John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

I'm unsure if the license is good for your lifetime. I thought all FCC licenses had to be renewed every 10 years. Is a "permit" different than a "license"?

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Sunday, March 7, 2021 at 7:41:35 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> No. Used to, not any more unless you cross a border. If you plan any
> international flights, check first.
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 3/7/21 12:09 PM, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> > I'm circling back on this old 2010 thread as I received a letter from the FCC asking me to renew the radio license specific specific to my N number (aka "Call Sign").
> >
> > So here is a question that really needs a simple yes/no answer*.
> >
> > "Do I need an FCC license for my glider (or for that matter for the myriad of GA power pilots flying their airplanes owned or rented) while flying WITHIN THE US so I can transmit across the entire aviation frequency range (118-137 MHz) and I can communicate with other pilots, small/large airports, ATC, etc, etc?"

Just to compare to Canada, it's much the same up here. From the regulator's website:
" Do I need a licence for the aeronautical radio equipment on board my aircraft?
You will not require a licence if you meet both of the following criteria:
- the aircraft is not operated in the sovereign airspace of a country other than Canada.
- the radio equipment on board the aircraft is only capable of operating on frequencies that are allocated for aeronautical mobile communications or aeronautical radio navigation."

So neither we nor you need a licence unless we cross the border, when each of us then do... Perhaps a mutual exception might be arranged.

We also have a medical declaration for the glider pilot licence, but it's not valid in the U.S.; yours, not valid up here. Pity.

Dan

[Dan Marotta]

I thought the Radio Telephone Operator's license I got back in 1974 (at
no charge, I might add), was a lifetime license. I lost it somewhere
along the way. If I decide to fly the Caribbean or Canada, I'll check
into getting another one.

Dan
5J

On 3/9/21 10:32 AM, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> I'm unsure if the license is good for your lifetime. I thought all FCC licenses had to be renewed every 10 years. Is a "permit" different than a "license"?
>

[Peter Hudson]

On Tuesday, March 9, 2021 at 9:32:45 AM UTC-8, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> I'm unsure if the license is good for your lifetime. I thought all FCC licenses had to be renewed every 10 years. Is a "permit" different than a "license"?
I have a HAM and GFRS license that does need to be renewed every 10 years but the restricted radio operator's permit is a lifetime thing...I couldn't say why, but at least I can't forget to renew it!

When I go into the ULS FCC database and list my licenses, it's the only one that doesn't show an expiration date.