Sport Pilot Glider Rating?

[Walt Connelly]

Interesting question from a Sport Pilot today. Can a Sport Pilot do a glider add on? Would it be a Sport Glider Pilot license? I haven't heard of such an animal, any one know the answer? Thanks.

Walt

[Mike the Strike]

On Jan 2, 8:53*pm, Walt Connelly <Walt.Connelly.
> wrote:
> Interesting question from a Sport Pilot today. *Can a Sport Pilot do a
> glider add on? *Would it be a Sport Glider Pilot license? *I haven't
> heard of such an animal, any one know the answer? *Thanks.
>
> Walt
>
> --
> Walt Connelly

Apart from the restrictions on the type of aircraft (you would need to
find a Light Sport Glider), the altitude restrictions to 2,000 ft AGL
would make soaring a challenge!

Mike

[Leroy Tire[_2_]]

I thought the restriction was 10,000 MSL?

On 1/3/2011 6:14 AM, Mike the Strike wrote:
> On Jan 2, 8:53 pm, Walt Connelly<Walt.Connelly.
> > wrote:
>> Interesting question from a Sport Pilot today. Can a Sport Pilot do a
>> glider add on? Would it be a Sport Glider Pilot license? I haven't
>> heard of such an animal, any one know the answer? Thanks.
>>
>> Walt
>>
>> --
>> Walt Connelly
>
> Apart from the restrictions on the type of aircraft (you would need to
> find a Light Sport Glider), the altitude restrictions to 2,000 ft AGL
> would make soaring a challenge!
>
> Mike

[vaughn[_3_]]

"Mike the Strike" > wrote in message
...
>Apart from the restrictions on the type of aircraft (you would need to
>find a Light Sport Glider), the altitude restrictions to 2,000 ft AGL
>would make soaring a challenge!

The biggest challenge is probably finding a soaring operation that understands
the Sport Pilot regs and is interested in using them to certify new glider
pilots. If you already have a Sport Pilot license, adding gliders takes the
appropriate training and signoffs by two instructors. Amazingly, it requires no
FAA written or flight test.

The Altitude restriction is 10,000 feet MSL. This can be an issue in some
higher parts of the country but usually not.

You must have flight and ground visibility of 3 miles. There may be days when
this requirement keeps you on the ground while others are flying.

You need to find a glider under 1,320 pounds gross, stall under 45 knots, and
Vne under 120 knots. That fits some existing training gliders.

Read Subpart J of Part 61 for the details.

Vaughn

[Tony V]

Walt Connelly wrote:
> Interesting question from a Sport Pilot today. Can a Sport Pilot do a
> glider add on? Would it be a Sport Glider Pilot license? I haven't
> heard of such an animal, any one know the answer? Thanks.


Here's my cut at it -
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/GBSC/student/sportpilot.htm

Tony

[Brian[_1_]]

On Jan 3, 7:14*am, Tony V > wrote:
> Walt Connelly wrote:
> > Interesting question from a Sport Pilot today. *Can a Sport Pilot do a
> > glider add on? *Would it be a Sport Glider Pilot license? *I haven't
> > heard of such an animal, any one know the answer? *Thanks.
>
> Here's my cut at it -http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/GBSC/student/sportpilot.htm
>
> Tony

The biggest problem with the sport pilot glider certificate is there
is little incentive to get it over a private certifcate. As I recall
the training in nearly identical. One just has to take the Knowledge
test (I think) and find a DPE to take a practical test, instead of
with a CFI. Most soaring sites are already set up for this. This will
add a few hundred dollars and some additional study for the knowledge
test, but then one does not have the limitations of the Sport pilot
certificate.

Brian

[vaughn[_3_]]

"Brian" > wrote in message
...
>The biggest problem with the sport pilot glider certificate is there
>is little incentive to get it over a private certifcate. As I recall
>the training in nearly identical. One just has to take the Knowledge
>test (I think) and find a DPE to take a practical test, instead of
>with a CFI. Most soaring sites are already set up for this. This will
>add a few hundred dollars and some additional study for the knowledge
>test, but then one does not have the limitations of the Sport pilot
>certificate.

I agree with what you say. I would try to talk any new student into going for
the Private, but that wasn't the original question. The OP seemed to be asking
about a glider add-on to an existing Sport Pilot certificate. That is actually
a pretty simple thing for any glider school to do providing they have a suitable
trainer and two CFIG's.willing to sign.

Vaughn

[Walt Connelly]

Thanks for the info folks, I had never heard of such an animal and the SSA website does not mention it, only Private, Commercial and CFI-G ratings for gliders. Asked a CFI_G and he said it had never come up with a student.

Walt

[Mike the Strike]

On Jan 3, 1:44*pm, "vaughn" > wrote:
> "Brian" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >The biggest problem with the sport pilot glider certificate is there
> >is little incentive to get it over a private certifcate. As I recall
> >the training in nearly identical. One just has to take the Knowledge
> >test (I think) and find a DPE to take a practical test, instead of
> >with a CFI. Most soaring sites are already set up for this. This will
> >add a few hundred dollars and some additional study for the knowledge
> >test, but then one does not have the limitations of the Sport pilot
> >certificate.
>
> I agree with what you say. *I would try to talk any new student into going for
> the Private, but that wasn't the original question. *The OP seemed to be asking
> about a glider add-on to an existing Sport Pilot certificate. *That is actually
> a pretty simple thing for any glider school to do providing they have a suitable
> trainer and two CFIG's.willing to sign.
>
> Vaughn

Except that the Sport certificate is only valid for flying light sport
aircraft. I am not aware that any two-seat LSA gliders exist.

Mike

[Tony V]

Mike the Strike wrote:
> ...... the Sport certificate is only valid for flying light sport
> aircraft. I am not aware that any two-seat LSA gliders exist.

Schweizer 2-33, for one.

Tony

[Walt Connelly]

On Jan 3, 1:44*pm, "vaughn" wrote:
"Brian" wrote in message

...

The biggest problem with the sport pilot glider certificate is there
is little incentive to get it over a private certifcate. As I recall
the training in nearly identical. One just has to take the Knowledge
test (I think) and find a DPE to take a practical test, instead of
with a CFI. Most soaring sites are already set up for this. This will
add a few hundred dollars and some additional study for the knowledge
test, but then one does not have the limitations of the Sport pilot
certificate.

I agree with what you say. *I would try to talk any new student into going for
the Private, but that wasn't the original question. *The OP seemed to be asking
about a glider add-on to an existing Sport Pilot certificate. *That is actually
a pretty simple thing for any glider school to do providing they have a suitable
trainer and two CFIG's.willing to sign.

Vaughn

Except that the Sport certificate is only valid for flying light sport
aircraft. I am not aware that any two-seat LSA gliders exist.

Mike

I think most two seat gliders probably come in under the weight restriction for LS aircraft. No one at the gliderport I fly at has ever had anyone try to do this type of glider rating but apparently it can be done.

Walt

[Bruce Hoult]

On Jan 5, 1:09*am, Mike the Strike > wrote:
> Except that the Sport certificate is only valid for flying light sport
> aircraft. *I am not aware that any two-seat LSA gliders exist.

The only thing stopping most of them is a too-high Vne. There are a
number of older two seat gliders with Vne until 120 knots:

Ka7: 92
ASK13: 108
Janus: 119

It's easy, and I suspect even legal, to simply make up a plate with a
lower Vne than the manufacturer originally specified. There are many
cases where a glider model's Vne has been reduced due to problems
discovered later such as flutter. Can you (or your engineer) reduce a
single glider's placarded Vne because of repairs, or simply because
you feel that it is "old"? It's no great hardship in most glider
flying to lose a few knots off the top speed.

I've definitely seen a powered aircraft operated as a LSA by replacing
the placard with one specifying a lower MTOW (which was then
ignored...).

[[email protected]]

On Jan 4, 4:40*pm, Bruce Hoult > wrote:
> On Jan 5, 1:09*am, Mike the Strike > wrote:
>
> > Except that the Sport certificate is only valid for flying light sport
> > aircraft. *I am not aware that any two-seat LSA gliders exist.
>
> The only thing stopping most of them is a too-high Vne. There are a
> number of older two seat gliders with Vne until 120 knots:
>
> Ka7: 92
> ASK13: 108
> Janus: 119
>
> It's easy, and I suspect even legal, to simply make up a plate with a
> lower Vne than the manufacturer originally specified. There are many
> cases where a glider model's Vne has been reduced due to problems
> discovered later such as flutter. Can you (or your engineer) reduce a
> single glider's placarded Vne because of repairs, or simply because
> you feel that it is "old"? It's no great hardship in most glider
> flying to lose a few knots off the top speed.
>
> I've definitely seen a powered aircraft operated as a LSA by replacing
> the placard with one specifying a lower MTOW (which was then
> ignored...).

You may have seen a powered aircraft operated as you describe, but not
legally if type certificated. Limits for determination
of LSA eligibility are as originally certified.
UH

[T[_2_]]

On Jan 4, 1:40*pm, Bruce Hoult > wrote:
> On Jan 5, 1:09*am, Mike the Strike > wrote:
>
> > Except that the Sport certificate is only valid for flying light sport
> > aircraft. *I am not aware that any two-seat LSA gliders exist.
>
> The only thing stopping most of them is a too-high Vne. There are a
> number of older two seat gliders with Vne until 120 knots:
>
> Ka7: 92
> ASK13: 108
> Janus: 119
>
> It's easy, and I suspect even legal, to simply make up a plate with a
> lower Vne than the manufacturer originally specified. There are many
> cases where a glider model's Vne has been reduced due to problems
> discovered later such as flutter. Can you (or your engineer) reduce a
> single glider's placarded Vne because of repairs, or simply because
> you feel that it is "old"? It's no great hardship in most glider
> flying to lose a few knots off the top speed.
>
> I've definitely seen a powered aircraft operated as a LSA by replacing
> the placard with one specifying a lower MTOW (which was then
> ignored...).

No.. you cannot change the MTOW or Vne of an aircraft, airplane or
glider from what it was originally certified at just to make it
qualify for LSA. If you have seen this in powered aircraft, do you
have an example you would like to cite?
In any case, it is not legal, and if the pilot did so to be able to
fly under LSA rules sans medical, he may have just invalidated his
insurance, his airworthy certificate and would be subject to penalties
and possible loss of certificates from the FAA.

Reducing an "experimental" aircraft due to "re-enginnering" would
subject the aircraft to a new airworthy certification and review and a
new round of flying off phase 1 and phase 2 requirements. And if it is
an imported aircraft.. even more headaches are possible.

T

[Mike the Strike]

On Jan 4, 11:46*pm, T > wrote:
> On Jan 4, 1:40*pm, Bruce Hoult > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 5, 1:09*am, Mike the Strike > wrote:
>
> > > Except that the Sport certificate is only valid for flying light sport
> > > aircraft. *I am not aware that any two-seat LSA gliders exist.
>
> > The only thing stopping most of them is a too-high Vne. There are a
> > number of older two seat gliders with Vne until 120 knots:
>
> > Ka7: 92
> > ASK13: 108
> > Janus: 119
>
> > It's easy, and I suspect even legal, to simply make up a plate with a
> > lower Vne than the manufacturer originally specified. There are many
> > cases where a glider model's Vne has been reduced due to problems
> > discovered later such as flutter. Can you (or your engineer) reduce a
> > single glider's placarded Vne because of repairs, or simply because
> > you feel that it is "old"? It's no great hardship in most glider
> > flying to lose a few knots off the top speed.
>
> > I've definitely seen a powered aircraft operated as a LSA by replacing
> > the placard with one specifying a lower MTOW (which was then
> > ignored...).
>
> No.. you cannot change the MTOW or Vne of an aircraft, airplane or
> glider from what it was originally certified at just to make it
> qualify for LSA. If you have seen this in powered aircraft, do you
> have an example you would like to cite?
> In any case, it is not legal, and if the pilot did so to be able to
> fly under LSA rules sans medical, he may have just invalidated his
> insurance, his airworthy certificate and would be subject to penalties
> and possible loss of certificates from the FAA.
>
> Reducing an "experimental" aircraft due to "re-enginnering" would
> subject the aircraft to a new airworthy certification and review and a
> new round of flying off phase 1 and phase 2 requirements. And if it is
> an imported aircraft.. even more headaches are possible.
>
> T

I still maintain my original assertion that no gliders have been
certified by FAA as LSA. Certainly a number could meet the
limitations, but decertification would be non-trivial. If I am wrong,
please cite specific aircraft.

Mike

[Marc Ramsey[_3_]]

At 05:39 05 January 2011, Mike the Strike wrote:
>I still maintain my original assertion that no gliders have been
>certified by FAA as LSA. Certainly a number could meet the
>limitations, but decertification would be non-trivial. If I am wrong,
>please cite specific aircraft.

Given that the FAA has a long list of type certified light aircraft that
can be flown as LSAs (various Aeroncas, Luscombes, Ercoupes, Pipers,
Taylorcrafts) one wonders why the compliant certified gliders (2-22, 2-33,
Ka7) weren't also added to this list. And, the possibility was well known
early on in the rule-making process, I know as I asked about it years ago
during an FAA session years ago at an SSA convention. What happened, and
can it be fixed? Seems like a no-brainer to me...

Marc

[Alan[_6_]]

In article > Mike the Strike > writes:

>I still maintain my original assertion that no gliders have been
>certified by FAA as LSA. Certainly a number could meet the
>limitations, but decertification would be non-trivial. If I am wrong,
>please cite specific aircraft.
>
>Mike


http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/slsa/ lists two gliders (actually one is
a motorglider) that they claim are S-LSA. One is the Lambada and the other
is the TST-14 (available as self launch or unpowered).

Following the links from there, one finds a note that N107SM was registered
in 2007 as a LSA glider.


Alan

[vaughn[_3_]]

"Marc Ramsey" > wrote in message
...
> At 05:39 05 January 2011, Mike the Strike wrote:
>>I still maintain my original assertion that no gliders have been
>>certified by FAA as LSA. Certainly a number could meet the
>>limitations, but decertification would be non-trivial. If I am wrong,
>>please cite specific aircraft.
>
> Given that the FAA has a long list of type certified light aircraft that
> can be flown as LSAs (various Aeroncas, Luscombes, Ercoupes, Pipers,
> Taylorcrafts)

Any list you may have found is for information only and not part of any
regulation. The answer is in front of you, in FAR Part 1.1

"Light-Sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered lift
that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following" ;
(the LSA limitations follow, including 120 knots Vne for gliders)

This means that any certified aircraft can be flown by a sport pilot as long at
it meets the LSA limitations and has ALWAYS met those regulations.

Vaughn

"

[T[_2_]]

On Jan 4, 9:39*pm, Mike the Strike > wrote:
> On Jan 4, 11:46*pm, T > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 4, 1:40*pm, Bruce Hoult > wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 5, 1:09*am, Mike the Strike > wrote:
>
> > > > Except that the Sport certificate is only valid for flying light sport
> > > > aircraft. *I am not aware that any two-seat LSA gliders exist.
>
> > > The only thing stopping most of them is a too-high Vne. There are a
> > > number of older two seat gliders with Vne until 120 knots:
>
> > > Ka7: 92
> > > ASK13: 108
> > > Janus: 119
>
> > > It's easy, and I suspect even legal, to simply make up a plate with a
> > > lower Vne than the manufacturer originally specified. There are many
> > > cases where a glider model's Vne has been reduced due to problems
> > > discovered later such as flutter. Can you (or your engineer) reduce a
> > > single glider's placarded Vne because of repairs, or simply because
> > > you feel that it is "old"? It's no great hardship in most glider
> > > flying to lose a few knots off the top speed.
>
> > > I've definitely seen a powered aircraft operated as a LSA by replacing
> > > the placard with one specifying a lower MTOW (which was then
> > > ignored...).
>
> > No.. you cannot change the MTOW or Vne of an aircraft, airplane or
> > glider from what it was originally certified at just to make it
> > qualify for LSA. If you have seen this in powered aircraft, do you
> > have an example you would like to cite?
> > In any case, it is not legal, and if the pilot did so to be able to
> > fly under LSA rules sans medical, he may have just invalidated his
> > insurance, his airworthy certificate and would be subject to penalties
> > and possible loss of certificates from the FAA.
>
> > Reducing an "experimental" aircraft due to "re-enginnering" would
> > subject the aircraft to a new airworthy certification and review and a
> > new round of flying off phase 1 and phase 2 requirements. And if it is
> > an imported aircraft.. even more headaches are possible.
>
> > T
>
> I still maintain my original assertion that no gliders have been
> certified by FAA as LSA. *Certainly a number could meet the
> limitations, but decertification would be non-trivial. *If I am wrong,
> please cite specific aircraft.
>
> Mike

You may be correct that no gliders have been certified in the light
sport category.
But the do not have to be certified as light sport to be flown by a
light sport pilot.
They only need to be certified in the standard or experimental
category and their listed certified MTOW and Vne meet the light sport
criteria.
T

[ZoomSport]

;759427']On Jan 4, 9:39*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:
On Jan 4, 11:46*pm, T wrote:





On Jan 4, 1:40*pm, Bruce Hoult wrote:

On Jan 5, 1:09*am, Mike the Strike wrote:

Except that the Sport certificate is only valid for flying light sport
aircraft. *I am not aware that any two-seat LSA gliders exist.

The only thing stopping most of them is a too-high Vne. There are a
number of older two seat gliders with Vne until 120 knots:

Ka7: 92
ASK13: 108
Janus: 119

It's easy, and I suspect even legal, to simply make up a plate with a
lower Vne than the manufacturer originally specified. There are many
cases where a glider model's Vne has been reduced due to problems
discovered later such as flutter. Can you (or your engineer) reduce a
single glider's placarded Vne because of repairs, or simply because
you feel that it is "old"? It's no great hardship in most glider
flying to lose a few knots off the top speed.

I've definitely seen a powered aircraft operated as a LSA by replacing
the placard with one specifying a lower MTOW (which was then
ignored...).

No.. you cannot change the MTOW or Vne of an aircraft, airplane or
glider from what it was originally certified at just to make it
qualify for LSA. If you have seen this in powered aircraft, do you
have an example you would like to cite?
In any case, it is not legal, and if the pilot did so to be able to
fly under LSA rules sans medical, he may have just invalidated his
insurance, his airworthy certificate and would be subject to penalties
and possible loss of certificates from the FAA.

Reducing an "experimental" aircraft due to "re-enginnering" would
subject the aircraft to a new airworthy certification and review and a
new round of flying off phase 1 and phase 2 requirements. And if it is
an imported aircraft.. even more headaches are possible.

T

I still maintain my original assertion that no gliders have been
certified by FAA as LSA. *Certainly a number could meet the
limitations, but decertification would be non-trivial. *If I am wrong,
please cite specific aircraft.

Mike

You may be correct that no gliders have been certified in the light
sport category.
But the do not have to be certified as light sport to be flown by a
light sport pilot.
They only need to be certified in the standard or experimental
category and their listed certified MTOW and Vne meet the light sport
criteria.
T

I know I picked up on this tread long after, but you are incorrect. The LSA speed limitation does not apply to the airframe Vne. the 120 rule is the maximum continuous straight and level flight speed at sea level. I fly under sport pilot, and legally fly SLSA, ELSA and experimental aircraft that have Vne of over 150kts. So unless a glider can maintain a continuous 120kts straight and level flight at sea level. I don't see this as an issue.