Another first glider query.

[Timinnc]

All my training in a G103. Looking for a decent glass ship under $20k. Looking seriously at 15b or Jantar Std 2 or Standard 41a. Any big differences between the Jantar choices? I get that the 15b will likely climb better in weak lift but the Jantars will dust the 15b when XC. I am 6'1" and have long arms, so a Jantar should not be a problem for me. I know I can't go wrong with the 15b but there is the gelcoat issue... and if I want to get into XC any time soon the Jantar will do better. Comes down to condition of plane and trailer for what can be purchased under $20k. So an opinion about any and all of the planes mentioned would be good with emphasis on the performance difference regarding the Jantar 41a (Standard) and 48-1 (Standard 2). THANKS

[Dr. John]

The glider with the best trailer wins!
John

[Andy[_1_]]

On Jan 8, 10:20*pm, Timinnc >
wrote:
> All my training in a G103. Looking for a decent glass ship under $20k.
> Looking seriously at 15b or Jantar Std 2 or Standard 41a. Any big
> differences between the Jantar choices? I get that the 15b will likely
> climb better in weak lift but the Jantars will dust the 15b when XC. I
> am 6'1" and have long arms, so a Jantar should not be a problem for me.
> I know I can't go wrong with the 15b but there is the gelcoat issue...
> and if I want to get into XC any time soon the Jantar will do better.
> Comes down to condition of plane and trailer for what can be purchased
> under $20k. So an opinion about any and all of the planes mentioned
> would be good with emphasis on the performance difference regarding the
> Jantar 41a (Standard) and 48-1 (Standard 2). THANKS
>
> --
> Timinnc

Never flew the -2 but it was reputed to have better performance than
the original Jantar Std. The (original) Jantar Std was my first
glass ship (leased not owned) and I did all my Gold and Diamond
flights in it. I didn't realize how much of a dog it was until I
bought my ASW-19b! Of course had I not had the opportunity of the
very low cost lease I may never have got into XC and contest flying.
Any glider is better than no glider and I learned a lot in it.

BTW the trailer on that glider sucked but it had no influence on how
often I flew, or where I went. I didn't know any better.

Andy (GY)

[Mike the Strike]

On Jan 9, 5:37*pm, Andy > wrote:
> On Jan 8, 10:20*pm, Timinnc >
> wrote:
>
> > All my training in a G103. Looking for a decent glass ship under $20k.
> > Looking seriously at 15b or Jantar Std 2 or Standard 41a. Any big
> > differences between the Jantar choices? I get that the 15b will likely
> > climb better in weak lift but the Jantars will dust the 15b when XC. I
> > am 6'1" and have long arms, so a Jantar should not be a problem for me.
> > I know I can't go wrong with the 15b but there is the gelcoat issue...
> > and if I want to get into XC any time soon the Jantar will do better.
> > Comes down to condition of plane and trailer for what can be purchased
> > under $20k. So an opinion about any and all of the planes mentioned
> > would be good with emphasis on the performance difference regarding the
> > Jantar 41a (Standard) and 48-1 (Standard 2). THANKS
>
> > --
> > Timinnc
>
> Never flew the -2 but it was reputed to have better performance than
> the original Jantar Std. * The (original) Jantar Std was my first
> glass ship (leased not owned) and I did all my Gold and Diamond
> flights in it. *I didn't realize how much of a dog it was until I
> bought my ASW-19b! *Of course had I not had the opportunity of the
> very low cost lease I may never have got into XC and contest flying.
> Any glider is better than no glider and I learned a lot in it.
>
> BTW the trailer on that glider sucked but it had no influence on how
> often I flew, or where I went. *I didn't know any better.
>
> Andy (GY)

There are those who will say that "serious" and "Jantar" shouldn't be
in the same sentence! However, my first ship was a Jantar (the 19m
Jantar-1), which has about the same fuselage as the 15m ships, if I'm
not mistaken. It flew pretty well and I had some great cross-country
flights while I owned it. Some caveats -the wings are heavy and take
some skill to rig. The cockpit is quite roomy, but the ergonomics are
not on par with the latest designs. Older Jantars have experienced
some play in control linkages, so make sure you have access to spares
(some of them were odd sizes).

The biggest problem I had was an absolutely crappy home- made trailer
(basically a cardboard box on wheels). I can't emphasize enough how
much a good trailer is worth!

Mike

[Timinnc]

;759645']On Jan 8, 10:20*pm, Timinnc
wrote:
All my training in a G103. Looking for a decent glass ship under $20k.
Looking seriously at 15b or Jantar Std 2 or Standard 41a. Any big
differences between the Jantar choices? I get that the 15b will likely
climb better in weak lift but the Jantars will dust the 15b when XC. I
am 6'1" and have long arms, so a Jantar should not be a problem for me.
I know I can't go wrong with the 15b but there is the gelcoat issue...
and if I want to get into XC any time soon the Jantar will do better.
Comes down to condition of plane and trailer for what can be purchased
under $20k. So an opinion about any and all of the planes mentioned
would be good with emphasis on the performance difference regarding the
Jantar 41a (Standard) and 48-1 (Standard 2). THANKS

--
Timinnc

Never flew the -2 but it was reputed to have better performance than
the original Jantar Std. The (original) Jantar Std was my first
glass ship (leased not owned) and I did all my Gold and Diamond
flights in it. I didn't realize how much of a dog it was until I
bought my ASW-19b! Of course had I not had the opportunity of the
very low cost lease I may never have got into XC and contest flying.
Any glider is better than no glider and I learned a lot in it.

BTW the trailer on that glider sucked but it had no influence on how
often I flew, or where I went. I didn't know any better.

Andy (GY)

Thanks Andy, but I love dogs... I have 5!..... and I have been told that the Jantar Std 2 is quite comparable to a 19 and some even like it better.... but can you qualify what makes a Std (41a) a dog? And it might be said that an ASW 15 is a dog compared to a 19..... But this is my first glider and another way to ask my original question is if everything is equal with regards to trailer, finish, instruments, etc. and the price the same.... would you choose a Jantar 41 over a 15b? And part two of the question still stands.... is there quite a bit of difference between a 41a and 48-1 (std 2).... But thanks for the input.

[Tim Taylor]

The trailer is a critical thing to look at. Fitting in the glider will
also be critical. Flying wise, the German ships will be lighter and
more harmonious on the controls. The Jantar 2 is a good runner and
honest to fly. The controls are a little heavy but not bad. With some
fine tuning the cockpit can be one of the most comfortable of all
gliders. Rear visibility in the Jantar is very good. A Jantar 2 won 4
of 9 days at the US Sports Nationals last year and had many 15 m ships
following it around on course. It runs well in the 75 to 80 knot
range.

[Mike the Strike]

On Jan 9, 10:33*pm, Timinnc >
wrote:
> 'Andy[_1_ Wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > ;759645']On Jan 8, 10:20*pm, Timinnc
> > wrote:-
> > All my training in a G103. Looking for a decent glass ship under $20k.
> > Looking seriously at 15b or Jantar Std 2 or Standard 41a. Any big
> > differences between the Jantar choices? I get that the 15b will likely
> > climb better in weak lift but the Jantars will dust the 15b when XC. I
> > am 6'1" and have long arms, so a Jantar should not be a problem for
> > me.
> > I know I can't go wrong with the 15b but there is the gelcoat issue...
> > and if I want to get into XC any time soon the Jantar will do better.
> > Comes down to condition of plane and trailer for what can be purchased
> > under $20k. So an opinion about any and all of the planes mentioned
> > would be good with emphasis on the performance difference regarding
> > the
> > Jantar 41a (Standard) and 48-1 (Standard 2). THANKS
>
> > --
> > Timinnc-
>
> > Never flew the -2 but it was reputed to have better performance than
> > the original Jantar Std. * The (original) Jantar Std was my first
> > glass ship (leased not owned) and I did all my Gold and Diamond
> > flights in it. *I didn't realize how much of a dog it was until I
> > bought my ASW-19b! *Of course had I not had the opportunity of the
> > very low cost lease I may never have got into XC and contest flying.
> > Any glider is better than no glider and I learned a lot in it.
>
> > BTW the trailer on that glider sucked but it had no influence on how
> > often I flew, or where I went. *I didn't know any better.
>
> > Andy (GY)
>
> Thanks Andy, but I love dogs... I have 5!..... and I have been told that
> the Jantar Std 2 is quite comparable to a 19 and some even like it
> better.... but can you qualify what makes a Std (41a) a dog? And it
> might be said that an ASW 15 is a dog compared to a 19..... But this is
> my first glider and another way to ask my original question is if
> everything is equal with regards to trailer, finish, instruments, etc.
> and the price the same.... would you choose a Jantar 41 over a 15b? And
> part two of the question still stands.... is there quite a bit of
> difference between a 41a and 48-1 (std 2).... But thanks for the input.
>
> --
>

One Other point - the early Jantars had a two- piece canopy that
wasn't too convenient, but later ones had a single
front hinged canopy. We have one in the Tucson club that is flown
cross- country pretty often. With a bit if water ballast in, it has
proved to be quite capable. The Jantars are renowned for being
strongly built- the main wheel looks like it came from a tractor,

Mike

[Andy[_1_]]

On Jan 9, 1:33*pm, Timinnc > wrote:
> 'Andy[_1_ Wrote:
>
>
>
> > ;759645']On Jan 8, 10:20*pm, Timinnc
> > wrote:-
> > All my training in a G103. Looking for a decent glass ship under $20k.
> > Looking seriously at 15b or Jantar Std 2 or Standard 41a. Any big
> > differences between the Jantar choices? I get that the 15b will likely
> > climb better in weak lift but the Jantars will dust the 15b when XC. I
> > am 6'1" and have long arms, so a Jantar should not be a problem for
> > me.
> > I know I can't go wrong with the 15b but there is the gelcoat issue...
> > and if I want to get into XC any time soon the Jantar will do better.
> > Comes down to condition of plane and trailer for what can be purchased
> > under $20k. So an opinion about any and all of the planes mentioned
> > would be good with emphasis on the performance difference regarding
> > the
> > Jantar 41a (Standard) and 48-1 (Standard 2). THANKS
>
> > --
> > Timinnc-
>
> > Never flew the -2 but it was reputed to have better performance than
> > the original Jantar Std. * The (original) Jantar Std was my first
> > glass ship (leased not owned) and I did all my Gold and Diamond
> > flights in it. *I didn't realize how much of a dog it was until I
> > bought my ASW-19b! *Of course had I not had the opportunity of the
> > very low cost lease I may never have got into XC and contest flying.
> > Any glider is better than no glider and I learned a lot in it.
>
> > BTW the trailer on that glider sucked but it had no influence on how
> > often I flew, or where I went. *I didn't know any better.
>
> > Andy (GY)
>
> Thanks Andy, but I love dogs... I have 5!..... and I have been told that
> the Jantar Std 2 is quite comparable to a 19 and some even like it
> better.... but can you qualify what makes a Std (41a) a dog? And it
> might be said that an ASW 15 is a dog compared to a 19..... But this is
> my first glider and another way to ask my original question is if
> everything is equal with regards to trailer, finish, instruments, etc.
> and the price the same.... would you choose a Jantar 41 over a 15b? And
> part two of the question still stands.... is there quite a bit of
> difference between a 41a and 48-1 (std 2).... But thanks for the input.
>
> --
> Timinnc

41a has very heavy roll forces. Expect your right arm to bulk up
nicely or always ache. It also carries an open class fuselage around
on 15m wings. The canopy is two piece, not hinged, and heavy. It's a
handful (and more) to remove solo to exit the glider in a strong
wind. For someone with a long torso the seating position has to be
very reclined which will be uncomfortable for some.

As Mike says it's built strong. The gear design has carried over to
many of the later SZD gliders. It has a rather strange disk brake
which doesn't seem to work very well.

Despite all this I flew 350 hours in one and enjoyed nearly all of
them. As I said I didn't know any better.

I have never flown a 15 or the Std-2 so cannot offer an informed
opinion on those. At the time I was flying the 41a a club member
bought a new Std-2 and he certainly thought the performance was
better.

The 41a is a truck and the 19b a sports car. That was the impression
I got when moving from one to the other. If you can find someone to
compare the feel of the ASW-15 to that of the ASW-19 you may have a
useful data point.

Andy

[Liam]

The 41a is lighter that the 48 and is reputed to climb better in weak
lift. If you're fortunate enough to fly in conditions meriting water
ballast, then the 48 would of course be preferable. The 41a only
seems like a truck if you've been spoiled; it's a good honest ship
with no significant handling vices.

[Timinnc]

The 41a is lighter that the 48 and is reputed to climb better in weak
lift. If you're fortunate enough to fly in conditions meriting water
ballast, then the 48 would of course be preferable. The 41a only
seems like a truck if you've been spoiled; it's a good honest ship
with no significant handling vices.

Thanks y'all...

[Timinnc]

;759710']On Jan 9, 1:33*pm, Timinnc wrote:[color=blue][i]
'Andy[_1_ Wrote:


41a has very heavy roll forces. Expect your right arm to bulk up
nicely or always ache. It also carries an open class fuselage around
on 15m wings. The canopy is two piece, not hinged, and heavy. It's a
handful (and more) to remove solo to exit the glider in a strong
wind. For someone with a long torso the seating position has to be
very reclined which will be uncomfortable for some.

As Mike says it's built strong. The gear design has carried over to
many of the later SZD gliders. It has a rather strange disk brake
which doesn't seem to work very well.

Despite all this I flew 350 hours in one and enjoyed nearly all of
them. As I said I didn't know any better.

I have never flown a 15 or the Std-2 so cannot offer an informed
opinion on those. At the time I was flying the 41a a club member
bought a new Std-2 and he certainly thought the performance was
better.

The 41a is a truck and the 19b a sports car. That was the impression
I got when moving from one to the other. If you can find someone to
compare the feel of the ASW-15 to that of the ASW-19 you may have a
useful data point.

Andy

OK then..... Anybody want to chime in on comparisons to a 15b vs 19 or direct comparisons to a 15b and a Jantar 41?

[Tim Mara]

I've owned and flown the SZD41 as well as a couple'a ASW19's and flown both
ASW15 and ASW15b
The SZD41 is a very honest and STURDY glider though cockpits on most of the
Jantar models you need to try to see how well you fit, the cockpit is long
so tall people fit but the panel is a long reach if you're flying with the
seatback far aft, if you fit and reach it's a pretty comfortable cockpit but
reach is the part you have to try.....also if you fly with the seat far
forward you'll have difficulty raising and lowering that big landing gear
since the retraction lever travels a long way and may be too far aft a reach
to be able to get it fully up.
The ASW15 is a small cockpit and if equipped with the original semi CG hook
mounted off to the side can be a thriller.or a killer..it can be a real
handful on take-off....! The 15b has a better and larger cockpit and some
improved handling.generally the ASW15b and ASW19 feel about the same and
performance is pretty similar, maybe at higher speeds the ASW19 has a slight
edge but it's relative.The older 15 will fall away quickly from any of these
gliders at anything above 50-60 knots. With handicaps these gliders are all
equal for club type contest though so irrelevant if that's the purpose...The
15b and 19 handle a bit crisper with the 41 feeling a bit over-stable and
wanting to continue whatever it is doing...probably takes a bit more force
on the stick but again, unless you're a weakling you'll get along just
fine....I'd guess the SZD41 probably fits in with the 15b for overall
performance and maybe just a tad slower than the ASW19....The Jantar is
however STRONG and built to take whatever you can dish out to it.they built
100's of these and many were in club use for decades...most are still flying
today..it's rare to find a Jantar with a busted tail but pretty common on
the Schleicher gilders plus the wheel is BIG and the brakes if well
maintained powerful on the Jantar also if you're attempting cross country
and find yourself landing in a field you'll appreciate this..assembly of all
of these gliders is about the same since none have automatic hook-ups, the
hook-up fittings on the Jantar are IMHO more positive and more robust than
the Schleicher gliders though and I think easier to insure they are properly
connected...all in all it's for the money a toss-up between any of
these...get the best condition glider of the bunch and the one with the best
trailer since these will make flying more enjoyable and the investment
better in the long run.then go fly it...a lot!....you'll get along with any
of these if you get to know the glider.
good luck
tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

"Timinnc" > wrote in message
...
>
> 'Andy[_1_ Wrote:
>> ;759710']On Jan 9, 1:33*pm, Timinnc
>> wrote:[color=blue][i]
>> 'Andy[_1_ Wrote:
>>
>>
>> 41a has very heavy roll forces. Expect your right arm to bulk up
>> nicely or always ache. It also carries an open class fuselage around
>> on 15m wings. The canopy is two piece, not hinged, and heavy. It's a
>> handful (and more) to remove solo to exit the glider in a strong
>> wind. For someone with a long torso the seating position has to be
>> very reclined which will be uncomfortable for some.
>>
>> As Mike says it's built strong. The gear design has carried over to
>> many of the later SZD gliders. It has a rather strange disk brake
>> which doesn't seem to work very well.
>>
>> Despite all this I flew 350 hours in one and enjoyed nearly all of
>> them. As I said I didn't know any better.
>>
>> I have never flown a 15 or the Std-2 so cannot offer an informed
>> opinion on those. At the time I was flying the 41a a club member
>> bought a new Std-2 and he certainly thought the performance was
>> better.
>>
>> The 41a is a truck and the 19b a sports car. That was the impression
>> I got when moving from one to the other. If you can find someone to
>> compare the feel of the ASW-15 to that of the ASW-19 you may have a
>> useful data point.
>>
>> Andy
>
> OK then..... Anybody want to chime in on comparisons to a 15b vs 19 or
> direct comparisons to a 15b and a Jantar 41?
>
>
>
>
> --
> Timinnc
>
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> signature database 5782 (20110112) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>



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[Timinnc]

Once again Tim..... A big thank you!!!!!! But I will probably get a Cirrus. :-0) HAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAA! Big tongue in cheek.

I've owned and flown the SZD41 as well as a couple'a ASW19's and flown both
ASW15 and ASW15b
The SZD41 is a very honest and STURDY glider though cockpits on most of the
Jantar models you need to try to see how well you fit, the cockpit is long
so tall people fit but the panel is a long reach if you're flying with the
seatback far aft, if you fit and reach it's a pretty comfortable cockpit but
reach is the part you have to try.....also if you fly with the seat far
forward you'll have difficulty raising and lowering that big landing gear
since the retraction lever travels a long way and may be too far aft a reach
to be able to get it fully up.
The ASW15 is a small cockpit and if equipped with the original semi CG hook
mounted off to the side can be a thriller.or a killer..it can be a real
handful on take-off....! The 15b has a better and larger cockpit and some
improved handling.generally the ASW15b and ASW19 feel about the same and
performance is pretty similar, maybe at higher speeds the ASW19 has a slight
edge but it's relative.The older 15 will fall away quickly from any of these
gliders at anything above 50-60 knots. With handicaps these gliders are all
equal for club type contest though so irrelevant if that's the purpose...The
15b and 19 handle a bit crisper with the 41 feeling a bit over-stable and
wanting to continue whatever it is doing...probably takes a bit more force
on the stick but again, unless you're a weakling you'll get along just
fine....I'd guess the SZD41 probably fits in with the 15b for overall
performance and maybe just a tad slower than the ASW19....The Jantar is
however STRONG and built to take whatever you can dish out to it.they built
100's of these and many were in club use for decades...most are still flying
today..it's rare to find a Jantar with a busted tail but pretty common on
the Schleicher gilders plus the wheel is BIG and the brakes if well
maintained powerful on the Jantar also if you're attempting cross country
and find yourself landing in a field you'll appreciate this..assembly of all
of these gliders is about the same since none have automatic hook-ups, the
hook-up fittings on the Jantar are IMHO more positive and more robust than
the Schleicher gliders though and I think easier to insure they are properly
connected...all in all it's for the money a toss-up between any of
these...get the best condition glider of the bunch and the one with the best
trailer since these will make flying more enjoyable and the investment
better in the long run.then go fly it...a lot!....you'll get along with any
of these if you get to know the glider.
good luck
tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

"Timinnc" wrote in message
...

'Andy[_1_ Wrote:
;759710']On Jan 9, 1:33*pm, Timinnc
wrote:[color=blue][i]
'Andy[_1_ Wrote:


41a has very heavy roll forces. Expect your right arm to bulk up
nicely or always ache. It also carries an open class fuselage around
on 15m wings. The canopy is two piece, not hinged, and heavy. It's a
handful (and more) to remove solo to exit the glider in a strong
wind. For someone with a long torso the seating position has to be
very reclined which will be uncomfortable for some.

As Mike says it's built strong. The gear design has carried over to
many of the later SZD gliders. It has a rather strange disk brake
which doesn't seem to work very well.

Despite all this I flew 350 hours in one and enjoyed nearly all of
them. As I said I didn't know any better.

I have never flown a 15 or the Std-2 so cannot offer an informed
opinion on those. At the time I was flying the 41a a club member
bought a new Std-2 and he certainly thought the performance was
better.

The 41a is a truck and the 19b a sports car. That was the impression
I got when moving from one to the other. If you can find someone to
compare the feel of the ASW-15 to that of the ASW-19 you may have a
useful data point.

Andy

OK then..... Anybody want to chime in on comparisons to a 15b vs 19 or
direct comparisons to a 15b and a Jantar 41?




--
Timinnc

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signature database 5782 (20110112) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com






__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5782 (20110112) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com